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> Guylhem Rom: First Qtopia 1.5 Release
hbo
post May 16 2005, 12:28 PM
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QUOTE(adf @ May 16 2005, 12:24 PM)
(since i was already clear on guylhem's last post)

hbo... how did you put 2.1 on your system?

were you runing G-rom w/qtopia 1.5 and did an update?  or did you untar the qtopia i tarred up yesterday? or did you just update a generic sharprom to check out 2.1?
*


I ran the update procedure on top of sharprom, I think.

I'm trying to see if I can actually get nxclient to work. I'm also getting to remember why OZ 2.X drove me back to the sharprom on my collie. : )
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adf
post May 16 2005, 12:37 PM
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try installing libopie1 and libopie2 ( i think you can get 'em from the zaurus feed-- if not , from cacko).

take some notes on what happens and get a hold of lpotter ( the qtopia guy that talks to us here -- and seems largely responsible for 2.1) he seemed interested in nx on the rom.

see the 2.1.1 threads.. I mentioned it yesterday, so it shouldn't be too hard to find the discussion.

NX would be very cool on a Z ;0
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hbo
post May 16 2005, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE(adf @ May 16 2005, 12:37 PM)
try installing libopie1 and libopie2  ( i think you can get 'em from the zaurus feed-- if not , from cacko).

take some notes on what happens and get a hold of lpotter ( the qtopia guy that talks to us here -- and seems largely responsible for 2.1)  he seemed interested  in nx on the rom.

see the 2.1.1 threads.. I mentioned it yesterday, so it shouldn't be too hard to find the discussion.
*


OK, thanks for the pointer.

QUOTE
NX would be very cool on a Z ;0
*


480x640 (or vice versa) seems to be the minimum resolution to make something like nxclient practical., Keypebble and qrdesktop work very nicely on my 860. But nxclient would be uniquely useful to me, since I routinely use it to access my client's sites.

I'm not a C++/QT hacker (although I have the Blanchette/.Summerfield book, it's down the stack in my reading list.) or else I'd look at porting KNX. Having the source code on an open platform is a huge advantage, as your struggles to run nxclient show.
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ken
post May 16 2005, 01:48 PM
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http://www.pdaxrom.org has a nice website setup. I'm wondering if something similar would work for this? The bug page is nice, however I'm not sure if it's easy to maintain or not. It does make it easy to spot things though.
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hbo
post May 16 2005, 02:42 PM
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If we had enough interest to start such a site, I could host it. Though I'll bet Guylhem would prefer to use externe.net, which is fine with me. The project is pretty small as it is, so I think the elaborate stuff isn't called for, yet. What I would like to see is an accessible version control repository. That way I could track development, and get a better idea of where I could help. (I also might be less likely to get spooked by trolls. 8) there's sourceforge, of course, though Guylhem might prefer a European provider.
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muesli321
post May 16 2005, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE
NX would be very cool on a Z ;0


http://www.nomachine.com/experimental_products.php
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guylhem
post May 16 2005, 04:12 PM
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hbo, I'll try to host that on externe - I prefer having everything at hand.

Yet I don't want non free parts exposed - distributing them in a big nand file which can only be restored on the 6000 is one thing, exposing them on the web is something else I don't want to do. - that would be like promoting their use :-/

The next release (if I have the soft float stuff ready) will be shipped without sharp apps- kino2 and zplayer will be there instead.

If I can find suitable replacements for hancom and opera (that could be the non free Picsel, which will refuse to run on machines without licenses - now I need somebody in japan to get me one !) that would be acceptable - only libsl and libzdtm, which are publically distributed by sharp, would remain. A good step towards 100% free software.

I'll see what I can do.

BTW - my long promised editorial is on http://externe.net/zaurus/modules.php?op=m...order=0&thold=0
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ken
post May 16 2005, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE(guylhem @ May 16 2005, 02:12 PM)
If I can find suitable replacements for hancom and opera (that could be the non free Picsel, which will refuse to run on machines without licenses - now I need somebody in japan to get me one !) that would be acceptable - only libsl and libzdtm, which are publically distributed by sharp, would remain. A good step towards 100% free software.

*


Being that I purchased my 6000L, personally I don't see why I couldn't continue using the applications that came with my purchase. I'm more than willing to reinstall the applications that it comes with. In fact, it's my preference, as I currently sync my data to my palm desktop. I can live with my current version of Opera, etc. It's not like I'm using someone else's copy.

I think as long as you don't include it in the distribution, then it's cool. We can always use the ipk that comes with our CDs.

As for the mplayer stuff, using the qtopia libs is cool, b/c I still have my original license. Just make a disclaimer page saying that if we download it, it is conditional that we already have a license for it (which we obviously do, as I don't think it's possible to have a 6000L without the software). I'm perfectly fine with using my existing Sharp things where needed. I *like* being able to install all the various ipks. While certain apps aren't perfect, they do work. As long as it's stuff that is already on my currently licensed things, I don't mind using it.
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hbo
post May 16 2005, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE(guylhem @ May 16 2005, 04:12 PM)
hbo, I'll try to host that on externe - I prefer having everything at hand.

Yet I don't want non free parts exposed - distributing them in a big nand file which can only be restored on the 6000 is one thing, exposing them on the web is something else I don't want to do. - that would be like promoting their use :-/

*


That's fine. How about a repo for the Free (libre) stuff?

QUOTE
...

BTW - my long promised editorial is on http://externe.net/zaurus/modules.php?op=m...order=0&thold=0
*


That's quite an effort. I'm not sure I agree that the Opie framework should die. I have three basic reasons for that opinion. First, the same was said of Gnome and KDE: that that there was one too many desktop framework on Linux/*BSD. They also said that the competition would kill Linux on the desktop. Neither of those statements have panned out, and it's been 10 years since KDE started up. Second, I worry that opening fire on Opie could be divisive, and could alienate volunteers who have given time to that project. You could thus actually worsen the split by casting the problem in either/or terms.

I'm not worried about Trolltech's opaque development process, although I wish it were otherwise. They've been doing the same thing with QT itself over the years, but have come through famously for the KDE community, at least after the dual licensing decision was taken.

I think that an entente cordiale is needed between the two camps. Something like freedesktop.org, or maybe freedesktop.org itself. That way, the Opie volunteers could participate without fear that the process was designed to annihilate them. That sort of pressure doesn't produce cooperation, in my experience.
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adf
post May 16 2005, 09:44 PM
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Of course.. there is always the X based desktop option tongue.gif good on office apps, not so good on handheld browsers..though minimo is looking better.

can siag be compiled against qt? Looks at a quick glance.. like no. could be compiled for X though....

koffice compiled for z? could it be done?

I don't know much about non gtk office apps....
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hbo
post May 17 2005, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE(adf @ May 16 2005, 09:44 PM)
Of course.. there is always the X based desktop option  tongue.gif good on office apps, not so good on handheld browsers..though minimo is looking better.

can siag be compiled against qt?  Looks at a quick glance.. like no. could be compiled for X though....

koffice compiled for z? could it be done?

I don't know much about non gtk office apps....
*


The issue is still the small screen and code size. If you simplify and unclutter the interface to a big, heavy desktop office app, and cut out half the features to reduce code size in order to adapt it to a handheld, it's not clear to me that you end up with anything better suited to the small environment than if you had started from scratch. But there's all that free (in both senses) code out there, so the thought often occurs to me that this or that desktop app would do well on my Z. I'm looking at KNX in that regard now, although that guy is a bit of a special case as regards the UI.

The glaring ommision that Guylhem points out in his paper is the web browser piece. I got both Mozilla and Firefox running under pocket workstation on my Z, but that was with a 4GB microdrive and 128MB of swap! And still they were slooow. It is the first time I've tried that where the zaurus hasn't locked up, however, so that's progress. The last time I looked at Minimo, it didn't impress me. But it certainly has potential. If someone could give embedded konqueror some love, it might be made to be servicable.

My guess is that there are too many crying needs and not enough skilled volunteers. That's why the whole split with OE dismays me so much. I've been away from the community for a couple of years, so I hadn't caught up with developments. I'm still not all the way up to speed, but the tension between modern features and backwards compatibility is a familiar story. (heh heh. he said "familiar") The trouble is that users often get squeezed in such disputes, and that certainly seems to be happening here.

Maybe an "entente cordiale" isn't possible between the Qtopia and OPIE crowds. Maybe what's needed is a shotgun wedding, in which neither the bride nor groom need be present. That is, can we devise an environment that will host both types of apps? If WINE can run winders on Linux, surely its possible to play with union mounts and the dynamic loader in such a way as to give each type of app what it expects from the system?

In that connection, can someone point me at documentation on hard vs. soft float on the ARM? I thought it was all soft float since the ARM doesn't have an ALU.
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adf
post May 17 2005, 01:12 PM
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honestly, see the best hope for a free oss browser currently to be dillo. vanilla dillo doesn't do frames or ssl. there is a patched version on damn small linux that does. compiling it to run on a Z X distro would probaby work out ok.
the best hope for a future browser free/oss would be minimo. nothing in qt being developed currently.

also..I think you'll find that the pdXrom version of firefox is less painful to use. I have heard that it is perttty snappy there.

so... maybe gpe or pdax bear another look in the search for a gui? or a native X option to G-rom?

of course, an outofthebox rom for general ust on which opera can be installed i likley stikll the best default
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hbo
post May 17 2005, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE(adf @ May 17 2005, 01:12 PM)
...
of course, an outofthebox rom for general ust on which opera can be installed i likley stikll the best default
*


I'm afraid so. Until one or another FL/OSS browser approaches Opera in speed, compatibility and footprint, then running that beast will be a requirement for any general purpose Z ROM, IMHO.

It's not that having X11 on Z isn't nice, or even a requirement, for me. It's just that the appropriately sized apps are mostly on one or another QTE environment. The thing that makes X11 compelling for me is not X11, it's pocket workstation. With the development environment and apps of Debian Sarge, kept up to date by one of the biggest FL/OSS armies out there, the promise for the future, and my comfort level for the present is assured. If I were forced to, I would make that my sole environment on the Z.

But I'm not forced to do that. I can have my cake and eat it too. It's actually remarkable, and pretty cool, that I can run Debian/X apps alongside the QTE stuff. But, am I satisfied with this? Noooo. I want more! More compatibility and therefore more apps to choose from. I will commit the narcissistic sin of believing that is what drives most of my fellow technology enthusiasts.

So I think a distro that could run most apps would be a hit.

[addendum]
I'm also not happy that I have to chroot to get the Debian environment. I understand why that is, but I still don't like it. It means I have to have two Perl installations on the system. for example.
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adf
post May 17 2005, 02:55 PM
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my take as well... ultimately we need to go to handheld debian. And honestly, a unique guylhem rom that was a model specific foundation to a native debian would be a really good thing, and a useful and popular one.

I disagree about the X-based office apps being necessarily bigger. Siag is pretty tiny. It isn't available on the Z yet.. but the source is available.

Dillo with the patches could make a good browser, it is small and nimble and open. And I certainly put bets on minimo getting good-- mozilla.org is pretty hot. Now doing a light "on the nand" x os, with the opition to boot into a bigger card based version of the same might be a good solution, or just assuming that /usr /home /opt /var and /tmp were going to be on a card might be good. If the X-server were optimized for the Z it could be effective and snappy either way.

The thinkg is..this might be a bit down the road.

checking out pdaX now
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hbo
post May 17 2005, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE(adf @ May 17 2005, 02:55 PM)
I disagree about the X-based office apps being necessarily bigger. Siag is pretty tiny. It isn't available on the Z yet.. but the source is available.

*


I don't know that one. Is it a word processor? Office suite? Do you create a lot of business documents on your Z?

QUOTE
Dillo with the patches could make a good browser, it is small and nimble and open. And I certainly put bets on minimo getting good-- mozilla.org is pretty hot. ...

*


It took them a long to to get that way. But, persistence paid off in that case.

QUOTE
                                                                                  ... Now doing a light "on the nand" x os, with the opition to boot into a bigger card based version of the same might be a good solution, or just assuming that /usr /home /opt /var and /tmp were going to be on a card might be good. If the X-server were optimized for the Z it could be effective and snappy either way.

*


I think code size is an issue here. QT embedded is pretty lean and mean. Partly that's because they leave out features like the network stuff, and partly it's just not having the X11 heritage of a hugely bloated research system running on successively more powerful machines, which meant there was less incentive to curb the bloat. It's not insurmountable, but it's a real issue.

But as my Zaurii get more powerful, they start being able to cope with the bloat. If I had 128MB of SDRAM in my 6K, I'll bet it would do a lot better with Mozilla.

QUOTE
checking out pdaX now
*


Yeah, I caught your posts in the other thread. 8) Let me know how it goes. At the moment, I'm back to the sharprom. I'm layering on all the software I want prior to doing a NAND backup and reflash with whatever looks interesting at that point.
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