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> Internal Storage Discussion, Getting too close to flamewar.
Cresho
post Aug 27 2006, 03:43 PM
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I'm just speaking my mind out mindlessly. I would like a pda pc though where i can just pop stuff in and out like nothing.

On another note, I would love to see 20+gb microdrive like you mentioned in my unit with sd and cf support come out NOW! I tell you man, if it was easy, i would of done it myself.

Hope this project works out good.
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adf
post Aug 27 2006, 04:02 PM
Post #17





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I'm confused again.

I thought an internal hd was probably not going to happen due to size/power/complexity issues?

I undersdtand the 1st 2 sd on a single controller limit...by if more are added would it be a nightmare to put'em on (intrnally wired) usb? would it make a diffference?

Would the speed hit for hypothetical sd cards 3+ affect the sped of 1 and 2?

If the screen isn't going to swivel (it isn't, is it?) then why not run a ribbon cable across the hinge and put a cf slot nicely streamlined into the screen side of the clamshell? I haven't the skill to even approach making this look nice, but can you picture it? a flair toward the top or one or both sides containing the cf slot? if the slot is to the side, the card could be only partway "swallowed" by the slot... just a thought, but maybe it would solve the issue if a brilliant case designer might be found?

2x 4gig sd would be planty for OS and important files..and the cf would handle maps, media, etc...

is this repetitive?
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 28 2006, 03:03 AM
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Now I thought the screen was still on the cards to be rotated. . . As well as an Internal ATA slot being still on the cards. All SD might as well be externally accessible, The whole point of this discussion was whether or not to have internal Flash or ATA ASWELL as 2 External SD. Since they're on their own bus the 3rd and 4th slots shouldn't [Edit:shouldN'T slow them down] slow them down a major part, although all 4 will be controlled by the CPU so some loss in speed is unavoidable. However I don't think it would be a significantly noticeable slowdown.
[Edit: Only because of the fact that the CPU can't process that much information in one go, So if you try and read maps from 4 different drives at the same time it's unavoidable]
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Da_Blitz
post Aug 28 2006, 04:01 AM
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be very carefull what yo say about SDIO, in fact an open SDIO driver is perfectlly leagl. you are just not allowed to use it without a licsence IF you have purchased the documentation if you havent then you could be caught for infringment of IP however i still worder if this would be allowed

there are SDIO stacks for linux, you just have to shell out cash, i also belive that these would be implemented in user space to avoid licsence issues. you could however implement them as a kernel module but if a client leaked them then you cant stop them leagaly form doing so, look into the seasoft stuff for refrence, my leagalese is not good at the best of times

ferret-simpson: might want to think about how the SD system would be implmented, adf is right the 1st and 2nd would take no performance hit at all as they would be on seperate busses, its only the SD cards on the 1 bit SPI that would slow down
i mean i dont even unerstand what was said in that last post, i see at least 2 things that contradict themseleves in that same sentance smile.gif

the storage minimum would be CF (throgh ATA) Flash annd 2 SD cards

this will not change, the only thing that might is if the CF will be on board or on a sepreate card that can be plugged in

if we can find a brilliant case designer then i would bend to thier will, its better that they dictate what connectors go where then me sa "build a case around this"

anyway when it comes to storage i am taking the aproch that the end user will know what to do, if they are a casual user then they will max out on flash, if tey are a power user, a microdrive, a Dev would most likly chose an SD card as the hot plugability makes for easy dev work

also i have just converted my home setup to 2x dm-crypt disks in a raid 0 array with a LVM root fs, it may seem wierd to mention this whover dont forget that encrypted disks will be an option (i was ammazed at how simple it was to setup, almost ot simple) however i think that on the internal stuff lvm is a good thing ™ after playing with it it has saved me some headaches and it would allow you to merge an internal CF card and flash into the one device keep in mind that we will have initrd support for lvm so root on lvm is no problem, please comment
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 28 2006, 09:25 AM
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Sorry, Typo corrected, and an Expansion of what I was saying provided.

Essentially what you're saying is that the design is likely to have an ATA socket, a large internal Flash medium, and 2 SD cards, and we tell the manufacturer what we want installed.

In that case, I'll take the lot!
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adf
post Aug 28 2006, 06:45 PM
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brilliant. I use lvm for my file server at home (bringing it up to 1.2 TB -low cost maxtor ide-this week) easy to do/ works beautifully.


sounds like all is in order. I had understood that the internal cf option would be a bit more crowded than you liked. 1 md/2sd would be about right for me, I think.
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Da_Blitz
post Aug 28 2006, 07:10 PM
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crowded but not imposible, but i would like the option of making it an option so that you can get a thinner case if you lose the CF

it mainly has to do with casing, not any technical reason. having the option of a thin case or a thin case with a large battery is appelaing. but if that origami keyboard idea is posible then you REALLY want to have as thin as posible PCB.
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 29 2006, 12:50 AM
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I still don't GET the keyboard.
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adf
post Aug 29 2006, 09:17 AM
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QUOTE(Ferret-Simpson @ Aug 29 2006, 08:50 AM)
I still don't GET the keyboard.
*

hmmmm.

sooo.. might big --2+gig--internal flash + 2 sd work with a loop mounted image on the flash? (I'm running knoppic on a 2gig usb pen right now, and see how this might be a good way to go)

If so, and some means of remastering the image --adding and removing software--maybe via a qemu sort of thing?? that might be more appealing than i originally thought
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Da_Blitz
post Aug 30 2006, 05:25 AM
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the keyboard is basically a targus fold out keyboard intergrated into the design (ie CPU on the keyboard PCB)

are you refering to unionfs and not loop images, union fs in konoppik is great and i plan to use it to patch the bootloader (ie ro flash in hardware and a rw area that can not be booted if a button is held down), after you leave the bios how its setup is your problem, but there will be at least support for booting off of dm-crypt devices, pc bios partions and lvm (or lvm on dm-crypt) as well as loop images on said filesystems/partions

it wouldnt be too hard to mount the flash or part of it as ro and unionfs the rest so that to format to a base system all you do is rm /mnt/rwfs/* and have it at a factory install
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 31 2006, 01:19 AM
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So, the keyboard overhangs the PocketPenguin? No offense, but that's kinda sucky. . . I usually use my PDA keyboards on the move, in my hands. After all, with USB host if you feel the need for a new keyboard you can take a USB roll-up rubber keyboard, or even a Sun Type 6 (Best keyboard ever) if you really feel like it. I know bigger keys are great for touchtyping, but if this keyboard design is another of the Desktop Replacement ideas. . . You'll need a desk to use it, so what's the point?
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Da_Blitz
post Aug 31 2006, 02:48 AM
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it not designed to over hang, that would be stupid, it has a folding pattern simmilar to that of the targus keyboard but not the size.

with the targus keyboard you dont need a desk to type, i have used my lap on a bus in a pinch and it works fine once you flick the lock on it

those roll up keyboards are as bad as the laser ones.

there are good reasons behind wanting to put the keyboard on the main PCB (keep in mind we are talking about 2 seperate issues here) it reduces the bill of materials, it also forces me to put the chips on one side of the pcb which makes it easier to shield, what keyboard pattern you have is up to you

if you dont go for the foldout option then it would be quite easy to put the cf stuff where the 2nd half of the keyboard would be. the split folding design also means that i will have to use a thin flexible cable between the 2 boards instead of a socket which has its advantages, but is not imediattly obvious why
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 31 2006, 04:19 AM
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I STILL Don't get it. So what, it's a keyboard that folds over from half of the keyboard space to cover the other half of the keyboard space? So we can access the CF slot like acessing the Memory chips on old laptops? Where you removed the keyboard and they were under there?
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Da_Blitz
post Aug 31 2006, 04:46 AM
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all it is is a keyboard that folds in half, just like the targus one does, when it is folded in half it dosent have a full kyboard layout (as the amount of buttons is halfed) so you have to use it as a corded keyboard.

that isnt the point the point is the reduced bill of matierials and how the board resources are split up, i expect i will be the only one who wants a half corded keyboard that can be switched to a full sized noraml keyboard anywaf
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 31 2006, 05:05 AM
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Wouldn't be easier just to remap the keys so only half of it is being used? XD
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