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> The Wiki, Where is it, what's on it ?
Chero
post Oct 30 2007, 11:45 AM
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Hi all,

I keep on reading through these threads about "the" wiki or "a" wiki. I found info about debian eabi and oabi on 7 different sites this evening (one about wifi, one about setup, one about basic settings, another one about feeds to use or ripping angstrom packages, ...)

"Where is the wiki ?" is a question many people will ask.

So, where is it ? wink.gif ohmy.gif huh.gif
Chero.

(we could pin this thread when all questions have been answered)
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ZDevil
post Oct 30 2007, 11:50 AM
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I think one good solution is to integrate all these stuff into the OESF wiki.
Of course the wiki doesn't speak gospel truths, but sidestreet wisdom can also be useful. wink.gif

So chero, can you list the finds here?
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Chero
post Oct 30 2007, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE(ZDevil @ Oct 30 2007, 08:50 PM) *
I think one good solution is to integrate all these stuff into the OESF wiki.
Of course the wiki doesn't speak gospel truths, but sidestreet wisdom can also be useful. wink.gif

So chero, can you list the finds here?


http://yonggun.tistory.com/54
http://www.oesf.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=24960
http://www.oesf.org/forum/index.php?s=&...st&p=170129
http://www.oesf.org/forum/index.php?s=&...st&p=168577
http://wiki.debian.org/ArmEabiHowto
http://yonggun.tistory.com/53
http://www.oesf.org/forum/index.php?showto...73&hl=uboot
http://www.oesf.org/forum/index.php?s=&...st&p=159745
http://inv2004.googlepages.com/z1000_debian.txt
http://www.zaurus.ru/board/viewtopic.php?t...asc&start=0
http://inv2004.livejournal.com/46046.html?mode=reply
http://wiki.neilandtheresa.co.uk/Wiki
http://bluetooth_and_eabi_on_zaurus.htmljoke

I can't find them all back again (used bablefish and it didn't save my history)

And of course there is a lot of info in the forum ...

Chero.
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ZDevil
post Oct 30 2007, 01:30 PM
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Hmm. Now I am talking with 2or0 to discuss the possibility of making one single mega tarball of all the essential packages. I am also preparing two automated scripts to get all the known parts set up. If this works, we can even save quite a number of wiki entries. wink.gif
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dlj0
post Oct 30 2007, 02:06 PM
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QUOTE(ZDevil @ Oct 30 2007, 05:30 PM) *
Hmm. Now I am talking with 2or0 to discuss the possibility of making one single mega tarball of all the essential packages. I am also preparing two automated scripts to get all the known parts set up. If this works, we can even save quite a number of wiki entries. wink.gif


Sounds interesting. I can be a guinea pig.

Why is it that 2or0's kernel needs uboot, while all others can just be flashed? I had trouble going from pdaXrom-2.4 to pdaXrom 2.6, and that is what drove me to Angstrom. But getting out of the uboot (or was it altboot) and into another setup required returning the machine to its native state, and was a long, painful process that had me wondering, more than once, whether I had bricked my Z. So, I guess I am a bit gunshy, especially since I do now have a functioning machine.

But, on the other hand, I like the idea of faster, and to get my new wifi card working before the old one literally breaks in half.
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ZDevil
post Oct 30 2007, 02:16 PM
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The good thing about uboot is you can install and boot different OSs on different medias, and choose which to boot just by pressing a number key.
Yes, I totally agree with you that getting out of uboot is a real pain on the Z. I have more than once failed to install uboot properly, which also didn't allow me to access the emergency mode. The only way back is to nuke everything to ground zero and start all over again ... which is no fun at all.
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tux
post Oct 30 2007, 03:47 PM
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cool.gif The OESF label at the top left of the forum banner will take you to the OESF Wiki. I and meyer have just spent a considerable time clearing out the spam of centuries and meyer, with very minor bits of help from me, has put in place some very effective spambot defences.

If you care to take a look you'll find that I have put some very basic and minimal pages about TitchyLinux there. You are more than welcome to post your information, either as pages of your own or to edit the pages I have started.

koan, one of several other helpers in the fight against spam, has started trying to make the fairly chaotic pages there easier to navigate and search through. Please join the party! biggrin.gif
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ZDevil
post Nov 2 2007, 04:36 AM
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Here: http://www.oesf.org/index.php?title=Debian...eries_models%29
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koan
post Nov 2 2007, 07:18 AM
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QUOTE(ZDevil @ Nov 2 2007, 04:36 AM) *


Wow, this is very specific isn't it ?

e.g.

Q20: I am using a C1000, and I want to use kernel 2.6.23.1 yonggun with uboot. How can I install Debian EABI on SD?

What happens when we're all using kernel 2.6.24 (in a few weeks/months) ? IMHO your design is going to be laborious to maintain.

To be frank, I'm not keen on the Q&A format of the guide. I'd rather have some basic explanation/discussion followed up with links to pages with more detailed information. With this format I have no choice except to read through the first 10 or so questions. Nowhere in the guide can I find a simple "why" I would want to install Debian. That question should be answered on the first page!

Another point, this is way, way too detailed for someone who has a Debian desktop and thinks it would be cool to have Debian on their Zaurus but doesn't really care about which ABI it's using or what kernel. How about a walk through of the most basic working install ?

I think it's great you've gone to the effort to put all this information together so please take this constructively; we need more guides like this but the current form, I think, will put off many potential users.
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ZDevil
post Nov 2 2007, 09:54 AM
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Thanks, koan for the input.

Q & A Format: actually at first I was also trying to write it in a manual style. But i gave up because it is downright boring. I think of the official Debian manual and the Debian FAQ. The latter is much more readable and digestible to noob users.

QUOTE
"What happens when we're all using kernel 2.6.24 (in a few weeks/months) ? IMHO your design is going to be laborious to maintain.


That is exactly the point of posting in the wiki. Someone, including me, will keep updating the content when things work differently.
The main reason why the content look so huge is simply because of the heterogenuous ways to install and configure the system using different kernels and rootfs. Both the installation method and the after installation configuration differ from case to case; the "Qs" are intended to concentrate on each of these particular cases and at the same time prevent the user from being confused by methods used in other cases.

Different kernels have different hardware issues (such as sound, touchscreen, mouse button key bindings, wifi card modules, touchscreen pointer jumping, etc), and that's why they require different fixes.
The two different rootfs (OABI and EABI) also behave a bit differently with respect to a number of things, such as sound and video playback.

I guess you'll understand what I am talking about if you do have tried setting up more than one of these combos. The guide is not trying to complicate things. It looks complicated because the reality of getting Debian installed IS complicated. In my case, after trying the pocketworkstation way, the "titchy linux" way, the "Angstrom kernel + OABI system" way, and now the "yonggun kernel + EABI", all I say is that they are set up in quite different ways.
Being detailed and specific is a lesser evil here, I reckon; putting everything into one big text or simplifying the crucial steps will bring more frustrations than guidance.

If you ask me which combo is recommended, then personally I'd say using an EABI kernel (Angstrom or yonggun) and an EABI system. Then again, cortez is now building new Poky kernels for running EABI system, and I am sure the its installation and configuration method are different still.

I can't tell you why there are so many kernels floating around. It's just a fact. The more, the merrier, don't you think so? wink.gif

The why is the guide still talking about the OABI system? I think it is still worth keeping because not every user feels comfortable with the unstable branch of EABI (armel, Sid). Running the conventional OABI is still perfectly fine, despite some glitches in hardware functionality (such as sound). Recently some people (such as cortez and tux) have been trying to build OABI kernels for the Zaurus. If that becomes real then we will have yet more varieties.

QUOTE
With this format I have no choice except to read through the first 10 or so questions.

This is certainly not the case, if you read a few lines down from the beginning:
"For fresh beginners, please read from Q1 onwards. For experienced users who just want to check out and review the installation procedures, simply jump directly to the relevant question. "
I suppose that is explicit enough.

QUOTE
Nowhere in the guide can I find a simple "why" I would want to install Debian. That question should be answered on the first page!

True. I will try to point out some goodies of running a full Debian on the Zaurus, but this is by no means saying "I've got the biggest richard in the world!" I for one will get put off by such aggressive and unsubstantiated boost.

QUOTE
Another point, this is way, way too detailed for someone who has a Debian desktop and thinks it would be cool to have Debian on their Zaurus but doesn't really care about which ABI it's using or what kernel. How about a walk through of the most basic working install ?


I can't agree here. The performance of OABI and EABI are quite obvious on the Zaurus. Remember the EABI thing is developed for small devices such as the Zaurus, not for desktop. So a Debian desktop user will certainly not care about EABI, but a Zaurus user who wants to experience speedy Debian will.
The most basic working install? There is no such a thing, I'm afraid. It all depends on your "stream": the combo of a kernel and an OABI/EABI system.
Or one can just run the pocketworkstation, which requires very little configurations as done in setting up a full Debian. But it is already outdated (3.0 Sarge).

My 0.02 cents. smile.gif
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ZDevil
post Nov 3 2007, 01:53 AM
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Thinking further about koan's comment again.

I've been talking with 2or0 about making a new EABI rootfs tarball with many of the packages and scripts and settings from the after installation tarball integrated in it. He tells me he is working on this right now. My C860 (now still running Debian OABI Lenny) is now standing by and ready to test it once it is out.
This will save yet more time to set up the whole thing and many details in the guide.

Really looking forward to that. wink.gif
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koan
post Nov 3 2007, 08:20 AM
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QUOTE(ZDevil @ Nov 2 2007, 09:54 AM) *
Q & A Format: actually at first I was also trying to write it in a manual style. But i gave up because it is downright boring. I think of the official Debian manual and the Debian FAQ. The latter is much more readable and digestible to noob users.


I'm afraid it reads like an infomercial now! "Say Bob that's a smart lookin' power drill you have there." "Hi Mike, it sure is, do you want to know why ?" ...

QUOTE
QUOTE
"What happens when we're all using kernel 2.6.24 (in a few weeks/months) ? IMHO your design is going to be laborious to maintain.


That is exactly the point of posting in the wiki


Yes but you've made it so you have to change it as soon as there is a new development. With this style you've structured the data around things that change the most frequently. When the kernel changes you have to change the section name and page title; on a wiki that means changing the link too. I think you should avoid creating new pages every time the information changes; especially on wikis as you have to set up blank pages with redirects.

QUOTE
This is certainly not the case, if you read a few lines down from the beginning:
"For fresh beginners, please read from Q1 onwards. For experienced users who just want to check out and review the installation procedures, simply jump directly to the relevant question. "
I suppose that is explicit enough.


I think you just confirmed what I said! With my fractured understanding of Linux (is anyone an expert on everything?) I would have to wade through 10 pages instead of being able to pick out the bits that seem to represent areas that I'm not so familiar with.

QUOTE
True. I will try to point out some goodies of running a full Debian on the Zaurus, but this is by no means saying "I've got the biggest richard in the world!" I for one will get put off by such aggressive and unsubstantiated boost.


And please also add something to http://www.oesf.org/index.php?title=Distributions
There are Debian and PocketWorkstation sections.

QUOTE
I can't agree here. The performance of OABI and EABI are quite obvious on the Zaurus.


I'm not saying it is unimportant, I am saying some people just want to plug and play. They trust you that a default install will be OK for the majority of people and if they are bothered they will read more details and select something that better fits their specific needs. Remember a lot of people spend their first few weeks with a Zaurus flashing between different ROMs to find out what they are like.

A short install procedure will let them get a feel for it. A long install procedure is less likely to grab the attention of a potential user. Call it a Debian Live ROM if you like.

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ZDevil
post Nov 4 2007, 01:46 AM
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I don't understand what you mean by "I am saying some people just want to plug and play. They trust you that a default install will be OK for the majority of people... A short install procedure will let them get a feel for it" at all, if you really HAVE tried. Or just try to make sense of why there are so many threads and posts discussing *different* ways of installing Debian.
Perhaps what you want is the "Titchy Linux": http://wiki.neilandtheresa.co.uk/Titchy_Linux
But the rootfs is OABI system, and the kernel is EABI. What's the deal? Many things don't work properly. That's the primary reason why many people start coming up with alternatives (a new EABI kernel + EABI system; or a new OABI kernel (not available yet) + OABI system).

So sorry, this current state of affairs is not what you are asking for.

I cannot think of any shorter way to tell users to install via the Flash Menu and Uboot. Can you just tell a new user "Install the bootloader and the kernel with uboot and then extract the rootfs and then do all the necessary configurations. Period?" And there are just so many necessary steps that should be specified as precisely as possible. I bet any user who has installed Debian successfully on the Z can confirm this. I don't make the rootfs or the kernel, I am just putting many users' notes together into one coherent whole.
Do tell me if you have a better idea (provided that you did try the methods).

The Q1-Q10 pages can be collapsed into one page. Perhaps you can do it too?
But I have already stressed that you don't need to read from Q1 onwards if you are not a beginner. And a dauntless newbie is on his own if he rushes to mess things up without knowing what he does (like mixing up the non-uboot kernels and uboot, using an OABI kernel with EABI system, etc)

Again, the wiki is open to all to edit. If you come up with a better idea, then go do it. But make sure it won't confuse people more than it is now.

Also, the guide is NOT error free; I just put it up there because many blessed hackers don't give it a damn but love to make a laugh at the users' mistakes, while detailed documentation is practically absent. I am also no hacker but am trying my best to help others like me.
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ZDevil
post Nov 4 2007, 02:02 AM
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And yet there is one potential solution: to make a new rootfs including all the necessary fixes as detailed in the instructions. Some people are doing this right now. I've also said that will surely makes things better and simpler.
But before that happens, we have to know what is needed, and this needs testing && discussion && testing && discussion ...
And don't forget that most of the us here have started playing with Debian for only a few weeks. A ready-to-go ROM just doesn't pop up out of the blue. We all want things to be perfect, so we are tying hard to make things more perfect.
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koan
post Nov 4 2007, 03:47 AM
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You misunderstand me.

I'm not saying your procedure is wrong, could be easier, or anything. I'm just trying to make a few suggestions on how to make your guide more easy to read.

At the moment it is a complicated procedure and the guide is necessarily complicated. However, IMHO, I think that with a few tweaks to the structure it could be easier to read.

My suggestion of a "preview" installation was premature; I can see you're still working hard on more low level stuff. Sorry about that.
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