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> Internal Storage Discussion, Getting too close to flamewar.
Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 24 2006, 09:41 AM
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Right, this arguments getting a bit hot. Ultimately, it's DB's decision. . But I'd like a separate reasonable discussion on this so we can concentrate on other hardware in "hardware" rather than bringing this up over and over again.

At current standing, the CF card is an INTERNAL HARD DISK. It would run on an ATA66 bus, which means you could not unplug it with a battery in the device without risking harm to either. You cannot use it to connect Wifi, Bluetooth, or any other "IO hardware"!!!!! You cannot use it to download files off of your Digital Camera or MP3 player's etc CF card.

I think it's still a good idea. It allows for the easy upgrade of storage media, using Compact Flash Type ONE or TWO Flash disks or Microdrives. Advantages of a Microdrive over embedded flash or SD card? Faster, longer lasting, and soon to be available in 20GB card sizes. That's a large hard drive for a PDA, which means you can install the entirety of Arm-Slackware a large number of times. Because a MicroDrive doesn't burn out easily, the correct linux kernel could operate the device using a good Journaling Filesystem such as my personal favourite, ReiserFS.

An internal Flash or Microdrive card can be replaced at any time in case of wearing out or accidental damage (Microdrives can be harmed by falling like a normal hard disk - Using our accelerometer to park the heads could reduce this risk though.) Internal Flash replacement would need a BGA rework station to repair.

Ok, so SD cards are smaller, but in terms of data storage: 4GB versus 20GB CF is clearly the winner, and you can't get SD microdrives.
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adf
post Aug 24 2006, 12:00 PM
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i, personally want snoopy's doghouse. That is I want a 10 gram 4 sq centimeter pda with a terrabyte of storage and a 65 inch screen smile.gif

Seriously, based on my experience with the 3100, I like the internal microdrive concept. The possibility of running slackware on the device is a definite attraction as well.

What, really, are the trade offs?
smaller and lighter and 8 gigs (2x 4gig sd) vs zaurus sized and maybe 28 gigs? How much smaller and lighter offsets 20 gigs of storage?

Is the placement of the md simply not compatible with the inclusion of the other internals in a pocket sized device? if so, then there is a problem. It is not, however, my problem. My Z does a nice job. If DB makes himself a device that doesn't suit me I'm not harmed in any way, and it might even benefit me indirectly as a reference design. If he makes a device for himself that i really like and offers one for sale, i can buy it, and be happy.

At this point i'm pretty much waiting to see what'gets decided on. all sd, no internal (with some extra card storage maybe?) could work--though we'd need a good distro for it that fit son 1 4 gig sd)
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 24 2006, 02:38 PM
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www.armedslack.org - Slackware ported mainly to RiscPC Linux but people have used the tools on familiar successfully. Oh for a hybrid of Slackware and OZ/GPE on my Universal. . .
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ken
post Aug 24 2006, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE(Ferret-Simpson @ Aug 24 2006, 07:41 AM)
Right, this arguments getting a bit hot. Ultimately, it's DB's decision. .  But I'd like a separate reasonable discussion on this so we can concentrate on other hardware in "hardware" rather than bringing this up over and over again.

At current standing, the CF card is an INTERNAL HARD DISK. It would run on an ATA66 bus, which means you could not unplug it with a battery in the device without risking harm to either. You cannot use it to connect Wifi, Bluetooth, or any other "IO hardware"!!!!! You cannot use it to download files off of your Digital Camera or MP3 player's etc CF card.

Battery life is very critical when it comes to a small platform. For me, I'd prefer a memory card of some kind. SD cards, etc are increasing in size and having large price drops. It won't be long before you'll have the large storage you desire.

Of course there's the issue of speed, which is why there are some that have removed the hard drive from their 3X00's and replaced them with CF's.

Certainly doesn't rise to a flame war status. At any rate, as long as it has the connector, people can choose.

2 cents. That's all this is.
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 24 2006, 04:21 PM
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By flamewar I meant the arguing over it was starting to get a bit close to critical.

The discussion is on whether to include the connector.
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Da_Blitz
post Aug 26 2006, 06:06 AM
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correction you cant get SD microdrives yet, toshiba was looking into it

slackware sounds nice however i am tempted to port gentoo to this devices as it seems like it will be the easist to port and it seems very "smooth" to me, i understand that compiling is not everyones cup of tea but portage does support binary mirrors.

the MD is big, thats the main problem. i also relise that there are some people who are going to want all flash rather than a CF card/microdrive. and all this is dependent on how i style the PCD, as i am considering the fold out keyboard design in a serious manner, even if the keyboard dosent fold out the idea of using multiple nokia batteries and one larg flat PCB with the keyboard soldered onto the back will make this thing alot smaller but due to the flat PCB design getting a CF slot in there will be hard, keep in mind i still have to look at dimensions here so its subject to change

there will be a pinout for an ATA device, the reason is simple, it allows you to connect an iPod drive or a microdrive (including the microdrives from OEM equipement that dosent work in normal PDAs/cameras). i belive that this is a good reason to switch from CF to ATA. however i must still check the data sheets as there may be a chance that the CF slot can do ATA, its a long shot but i might as well check

flamewar is a strong word, if it was going off topic then its a good time to start a new thread, i have pulled back from breaking up a discussion or two on here because i felt the 2 parties were flaiming each other. most of the time it was people taking what i said and not fully understanding what was said and the implecations of it
oh and as far as a know we can hot swap the CF cards in ATA mode, just tristate the drivers and make sure it is unmounted, the CF slat already has the electrical stuff setup, the only reason i havent said it can do it so far is that i cant say that it wont fry your CF card/PP

oh well while i am waiting for files to come in i will detail what the main starage options are:
1. small boot flash with / on CF
2. small boot flash with / on SD
3. large flash
4. small flash with / on ATA disk (ipod)

3 is the smallest, 2 the next smallest but also the same size as there will be 2 SD card slots in the final design and 3 needs the CF socket on any of these you can have any sized f/ash, the large and small were as a rough guide
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 26 2006, 08:02 AM
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And 4 is the one involving the secure bootloader, which should also boot from SD, USB or network. (Theoretically network)

I'm going to vote for secure small flash and the root on ATA, since we can boot "LiveSD's" aswell. There is already a Slackware-ARM port, for the StrongARM RiscPC and soon the Iyonix. I doubt there'd be too much of a challenge in porting it from StrongARM to Zaurus, especially if using the same 2.6 kernel we were planning on using for PocketPenguin. . .
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adf
post Aug 26 2006, 10:05 AM
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QUOTE(Ferret-Simpson @ Aug 26 2006, 04:02 PM)
And 4 is the one involving the secure bootloader, which should also boot from SD, USB or network. (Theoretically network)

I'm going to vote for secure small flash and the root on ATA, since we can boot "LiveSD's" aswell. There is already a Slackware-ARM port, for the StrongARM RiscPC and soon the Iyonix. I doubt there'd be too much of a challenge in porting it from StrongARM to Zaurus, especially if using the same 2.6 kernel we were planning on using for PocketPenguin. . .
*

gentoo works for me.

I suspect the design likliest to appear is small boot flash with root on sd. any chance of doing more sd slots?
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 26 2006, 11:46 AM
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Yeah, Theoretically. And of course, we'd be able to handle 8GB SD cards etc etc etc. . . So, I'm up for that! XD

I can handle losing a Microdrive if I've got more than two SD slots. . Root drive, Home Drive, then at least one drive that can be used for file transfer to other devices (XDA, Zaurus.) 4 Would be nice!
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Da_Blitz
post Aug 26 2006, 04:31 PM
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as i said you take a hit on speed, i might consider it if there is room the problem is that more SD cards means more GPIO which are alread limited

actually all involve the secure boot as we have to boot off of flash anyway, the secure boot has nothing to do with what / is stored on, it just ensures that the device boots the kernel that we have specified, what the kernel does after that is the kernels buisness

i am pro desktop distro on these things, OE is out as any PC distro is going to have at least 10x the packages. that and i find OE complex and slow sad.gif.
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adf
post Aug 26 2006, 04:49 PM
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I look at it the other way--

I agree that I'd prefer gentoo on board, vastly. Honestly if the PP were nothing but a 3100 running gentoo I'd trade my 3100 with zaurus roms in, in a heartbeat

BUT this platform will the OE devs a chance to show what they are really aiming at, without reverse engineering drivers and stuff. I encourage an effort to get a pocket penguin in their hands.
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Da_Blitz
post Aug 27 2006, 04:52 AM
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The OE devs are free to do what they want. the reason i like gentoo is the huge package support and the fact that it wouldnt be too hard to port it, it would more than likly take less time to get the OE stuff up and running but even thogh i have had less time with portage i am already alot more comfortble with it sad.gif

also i dont think that comparing OE to gentoo is a good idea, gentoo to OZ+OE would be a better anolagy, gentoo definattly comes out on top when it comes to packages.

oh well its to far in the futre to think about. it also depends on how gets what hardware, first priority is kernel devs then distro guys.
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 27 2006, 02:14 PM
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Well Hardwired internal flash isn't a grwat option for me. . My files change so regularly that everything needs to be done on something that can be rescued from the carcase of a dead PDA. I'm sure I'm not the only one. . .

I vote for a small int. Flash (Keeps costs down) and either Multiple SD's or 2 SD's and a CF-ATA
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Cresho
post Aug 27 2006, 02:24 PM
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I think internal SD is the way to go. When they get bigger in size, you can just swap the cards out. Also, have external sd and CF.

With this, now you have options 2 or three internal SD cards or even MICRO SD. or sd wifi or bluetooth that would originally be occupied by a singel compact flash card.

this way you give the user option to run 3 sd units inside or 1 sd card, 1 bluetooth, or one wifi.
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Ferret-Simpson
post Aug 27 2006, 02:33 PM
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Uhm Cresho. . What are you talking about? o.o

1: SDIO is not Supporeted under Linux as making an Open Source SDIO driver is illegal. (In broach of SDIO license)

2: This thing has onboard wifi and bluetooth anyway, 54G to be exact.

3: The CF is ATA. . Hard Disk mode only, so better have that internal than the SD's which can be hotswapped without (the risk of) frying the PP

4: The more SD's we add, The slower they'll get, as DB just pointed out. The first two are on a dedicated Controller, any more would be added over the general 4-bit Serial port that has so far been given to (GPS?), Phone/Modem, Small Second-Screen on rear, IRDA, and an External Serial port at different phases in development. So to say. . load maps from while using your GPS, we're going to start getting sloooow transfers.

5: Metal casing. The SD wifi and Bluetooth would have a 0 to 2 inch range. tongue.gif biggrin.gif
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