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> Various Questions About Zbedic, its format, etc.
kurochka
post Nov 17 2005, 11:59 AM
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I have spent the last couple of days reading all the documents about ZBedic format (the old and the new simplified), man page for mkbedic and the example dictionary file. Here is what I did:

1. I compiled mkbedic.
2. I processed by mkbedic the example dic file (mkbedic example.dic dictionary.dic)
4. I installed the new dictionary on Zaurus into the directory where my other dictionaries are.
5. I used "search for dictionaries" function of ZBedic (alternatively, I wrote the path to the dictionary.dic into the zbedic conf file)

Nothing happened. For some reason, ZBedic could not recognize the resulting file. I know I didn't compress the new dic but I understand that it is not necessary. Then, just in case I processed the dictionary.dic (the file resulting from mkbedic) with xerox (although I understand that mkbedic is a replacement for xerox), this did not work either.

Could somebody walk me through the process and explain what I did wrong? Please either use the example.dic or a very simple dic file, like:

id= Dictionary

Word
{s}{ss}meaning{ss/}{s}

Give me examples, please.

Thank in advance
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rafm
post Nov 17 2005, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE(kurochka @ Nov 17 2005, 08:59 PM)
Nothing happened.  For some reason, ZBedic could not recognize the resulting file.  I know I didn't compress the new dic but I understand that it is not necessary.
*


I am affraid that it may be necessary to compress the dictionary. At some point I removed the ".dic" extension from the MIME types, since some people had complained that zbedic was finding too many system files with the ".dic" extension. Now, it can recognize only ".dic.dz" files. It may still read ".dic" files if you add ".dic" to the MIME types, but I wouldn't bet on that.
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kurochka
post Nov 26 2005, 07:38 PM
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I think I am making progress (but very slow). Here is another problem that I am facing.

I need to make a ZBedic dictionary (this is still a test dictionary to figure out the inner workings). I've prepared the text .dic file (size 3.7 MB). Mkbedic command runs without any errors but the resulting dictionary is exactly 0 bytes.

I've re-read the man page for mkbedic and it says that the command cannot process "very large files." When I make the .dic files smaller (just a couple of pages), then everything works and zbedic can access the dictionary.

My intention is to make a large dictionary (tens of thousands of entries about 40MB or more in txt format) after I figured out how everything works. So, I need to come up with a solution.

Does this mean I have to use xerox? If so, it will be tough for me. It took me a while to figure out the simplified format. I am not sure if I can do the original format. Can I use a text editor to prepare the original format dictionary file? If so, how do I enter 0 byte, etc.?

Can it be that the problem is not the size but something else? But there is no error. What is meant by the "very large files"?
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rafm
post Nov 27 2005, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE(kurochka @ Nov 27 2005, 04:38 AM)
I think I am making progress (but very slow).  Here is another problem that I am facing.

I need to make a ZBedic dictionary (this is still a test dictionary to figure out the inner workings).  I've prepared the text .dic file (size 3.7 MB).  Mkbedic command runs without any errors but the resulting dictionary is exactly 0 bytes. 

I've re-read the man page for mkbedic and it says that the command cannot process "very large files." When I make the .dic files smaller (just a couple of pages), then everything works and zbedic can access the dictionary.

Can it be that the problem is not the size but something else?  But there is no error.  What is meant by the "very large files"?
*


I should have been more precise: very large files means >2GB. So a few megabyte dictionary should work fine.

If mkbedic does not show any error and still you get 0 bytes file, this can be a bug. If possible, please send me this file to rafm at users.sourceforge.net, so I can check what goes wrong.
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kurochka
post Nov 29 2005, 08:58 AM
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QUOTE(rafm @ Nov 27 2005, 01:51 AM)
I should have been more precise: very large files means >2GB. So a few megabyte dictionary should work fine.

If mkbedic does not show any error and still you get 0 bytes file, this can be a bug. If possible, please send me this file to rafm at users.sourceforge.net, so I can check what goes wrong.
*


Thanks, rafm. It is good news. None of my dictionaries will exceed 2GB (I guess it only matters for wickipedia and such other big projects).

The original problem may not actually be connected to mkbedic. The files were 0 at first. Then, after a while I looked at them again and they were of normal size. It's weird but now everything works - I just have to wait if the size is 0 and then it fixes itself.

I will keep this thread going by asking other questions and making suggestions and comments:

1. Emphasis Tag. I've noticed that {em} tag is hardly seen on the screen. I understand it makes letters bold but somehow they are almost indistinguishable from normal letters. I wonder if {em} could instead make the tagged text a different color to make it stand out. I am using this tag for showing accent in the words. BTW, if the full text search is implemented, will the {de} tags within the word break the search? Any other useful tags that can work for showing word accent (stress)?

2. Ways to Show Word Accent/Stress. As indicated earlier, I use {em} tags to show word stress in the words in the translation portion. This seems somewhat awkward now but it works for the translation portion. How can I show word accent for words for the keywords without ruining the search mechanism? One solution that might work (I am not sure though) -- I could probably use the Unicode stress symbol (I think there is a special symbol in Unicode for word accent) and put it in the ignore char list. Will this work? For example, if the keyword is "a'rmy" (showing stress on A) will the search for "army" locate the keyword if I use the above described approach?

3. Category Tag. The format description document indicates that each sense or subsense can have zero or one category taged text. I have noticed that this is not enforced by zbedic and the sense or subsense can have zero, one or more than one category taged text. This is great news as words/meanings can be of multiple categories (e.g., medicine and chemistry at the same time). So, please leave this as it is. I think the official format definition should be also amended to allow zero or any number of categories.

4. Part of Speech Tag. The format description states that each sense can have zero or one part of speech tagged text {ps}. This is enforced by zbedic. If a sense has more than one {ps} then only the first one is shown, the others disappear. This makes sense (pan intended). However, I just want to note that when converting from other dictionary formats it is to burdensome (probably, should be done manually) to convert the entries that have multiple parts of speech tags in one sense. The solution for me was to just use {de} instead of {ps} because the sense and subsense can have any number of {de}'s. I have noticed that Mueller English-Russian dictionary uses {ps} tag to put a Roman number for each sense (e.g., "a I" then a line and "a II" in the translation window). I think I will also use it for this purpose.

5. Strict Order of Opening/Closing Tags. Some dictionary formats (e.g., DSL for Lingvo) allow any order of tags as long as the closing tag follows the corresponding opening tag (e.g., [ex][cl] any word[ex][cl] in DSL). Zbedic enforces the order of closing tags depending on the order of opening tags -- the outer (inner) opening tag should have a corresponding outer (inner) closing tag (e.g., {ex}{de}Text{de}{ex} and not {ex}{de}Text{ex}{de}). This is just a note for others (some of my entries did not work because of this). I think it makes sense to enforce the order.

6. Pronunciation Tag. I know that a lot of dictionaries use IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) for pronunciation/transcription of words. So far, I have not seen a font that supports IPA for Zaurus. Therefore, when converting a dictionary I just deleted the pronunciation portion, which is a shame. Maslovsky, do you know any fonts that have IPA and cyrillic in them?

7. Use of Senses and Subsenses. When converting dictionaries, I went the easier route of keeping the hardcoded separation of senses and subsenses (no tags, just text "1." "2." and "1)" and "2)" ). I just put the whole thing into one sense and subsense. The better way is to replace it with the Zbedic separation into {s} and {ss}. But it works anyway. Anybody sees a problem with this approach?

8. Conversion Process. Since I do not know any programming language, I just used the find and replace (including regular expressions) to convert the dictionaries in other formats into Zbedic format. I know that there are some scripts available but they are specific to the format from which the conversion takes place (Wikipedia, Muller). I would appreciate if people would share their scripts with the community here or at Zbedic SF site. Maybe I could adapt those for my use.

9. Making the Source Files for Dictionaries Available. I know that dic.dz can be opened and modified but I think it would be more accessable for those who want to learn the format and/or modify the text of the dictionary files to make available on SF site regular text .dic files (with the new mkbedic the source files are pure text).

10. New Line Break Tags. Looking at the example.dic I see that there are new tags available for line break {br/}. I guess this would be the only tag that does not have/need a corresponding second tag.

11. Just A Sense Without Subsenses? Don't know why I have not tried it yet but I wonder if there can be an entry with just a simple sense (e.g., {s}meaning{/s}) without subsenses? There are lots of words that require a simple one or two word translation and the {ss} tag seams redudant.
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kurochka
post Dec 24 2005, 06:40 AM
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QUOTE(kurochka @ Nov 29 2005, 08:58 AM)
I will keep this thread going by asking other questions and making suggestions and comments:

1. Emphasis Tag. I've noticed that {em} tag is hardly seen on the screen.  I understand it makes letters bold but somehow they are almost indistinguishable from normal letters.  I wonder if {em} could instead make the tagged text a different color to make it stand out.  I am using this tag for showing accent in the words.  BTW, if the full text search is implemented, will the {de} tags within the word break the search?  Any other useful tags that can work for showing word accent (stress)?

2. Ways to Show Word Accent/Stress.  As indicated earlier, I use {em} tags to show word stress in the words in the translation portion.  This seems somewhat awkward now but it works for the translation portion.  How can I show word accent for words for the keywords without ruining the search mechanism?  One solution that might work (I am not sure though) --  I could probably use the Unicode stress symbol (I think there is a special symbol in Unicode for word accent) and put it in the ignore char list.  Will this work?  For example, if the keyword is "a'rmy" (showing stress on A) will the search for "army" locate the keyword if I use the above described approach?

*


Just several comments to my earlier notes.

Emphasis Tag. Emphasis {em} tag works. The problem of it not showing was somehow connected to the size of the font I used. I decreased the size of the font and the emphasis started to show.

Showing Word Accent I am still struggling with this. The proper way would be to use "combining diacritical marks" from Unicode standard (see http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0300.pdf). 0301 looks like the one I would like to use (however, 02c8 or 02b9 could potentially be also used, I guess). However, it turns out that a lot of programs cannot combine these marks with other glyphs. Microsoft Word kind of works but still it is a problem. I have not tested whether Zbedic supports this because I have hard time creating a test dictionary with these marks. In the perfect world, these combining diacritical marks would combine with a preceding glyph to form one character for displaying purposes. I would then only list the main character in the char-precedence while putting the diacritical mark 0301 into ignore list. This way I could see the stress of all words (not just in transcription) but the word stress would be ingnored for searching purposes. Does this make sense? Anyone has any ideas or suggestions?

{ph} tag? I have just noticed a {ph} tag. I don't see a description of this tag other than that it is somehow used for "description" field. What is it supposed to do? What are the suggestions for its use? If nobody knows for sure, I will try it and report back.

One other question. Will the old linux bedic program (qbedic?) work with the files created by mkbedic (by ignoring the new features) or will it fail to open the new dictionaries? Again, I will try to test this. I feat that it will fail and we will have to wait for a zbedic port to linux.

RAFM, do you have plans for zbedic to go in parallel with TEI XML (making it easy to convert between the two)? Is TEI XML something worth learning?

I presume that there could be new tags in the future. Is it possible for Zbedic to ignore all tags that it does not yet know (for example, {bla}, {/bla})? This way I could put some placeholding tags into my dictionaries for the future and then one day hope that the new tags will be implemented. In the meantime, the dictionaries could be used as is. Mostly, these tags would deal with grammatical categories or wordforms, etc.


Otherwise, I am moving along and getting better with using zbedic format.
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rafm
post Jan 4 2006, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE(kurochka @ Dec 24 2005, 03:40 PM)
Just several comments to my earlier notes.
Emphasis Tag.  Emphasis {em} tag works.  The problem of it not showing was somehow connected to the size of the font I used.  I decreased the size of the font and the emphasis started to show.
*


Some fonts or font sizes may be missing an italic, which is used for the emphasis.

QUOTE
Showing Word Accent  I am still struggling with this.  The proper way would be to use "combining diacritical marks" from Unicode standard (see http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0300.pdf).  0301 looks like the one I would like to use (however, 02c8 or 02b9 could potentially be also used, I guess).  However, it turns out that a lot of programs cannot combine these marks with other glyphs.  Microsoft Word kind of works but still it is a problem.  I have not tested whether Zbedic supports this because I have hard time creating a test dictionary with these marks.  In the perfect world, these combining diacritical marks would combine with a preceding glyph to form one character for displaying purposes.  I would then only list the main character in the char-precedence while putting the diacritical mark 0301 into ignore list.  This way I could see the stress of all words (not just in transcription) but the word stress would be ingnored for searching purposes.  Does this make sense?  Anyone has any ideas or suggestions?


As far as I know combining diacritical marks does not work under QTopia.

QUOTE
{ph} tag? I have just noticed a {ph} tag.  I don't see a description of this tag other than that it is somehow used for "description" field.  What is it supposed to do?  What are the suggestions for its use?  If nobody knows for sure, I will try it and report back.


This tag does not / should not work. Once I decided that this tag was a bad idea and I removed it. If there is a trace of this tag somewhere in the documentation, I should remove it.

QUOTE
One other question.  Will the old linux bedic program (qbedic?) work with the files created by mkbedic (by ignoring the new features) or will it fail to open the new dictionaries?  Again, I will try to test this.  I feat that it will fail and we will have to wait for a zbedic port to linux.


If you don't use any new features and your dictionaries are <2GB, files generated with mkbedic should work with qbedic. But I haven't checked this.

QUOTE
RAFM, do you have plans for zbedic to go in parallel with TEI XML (making it easy to convert between the two)?  Is TEI XML something worth learning? 


Freedict project has a script for converting TEI XML -> bedic. TEI XML could be very useful if there were more software supporting it.

QUOTE
I presume that there could be new tags in the future.  Is it possible for Zbedic to ignore all tags that it does not yet know (for example, {bla}, {/bla})?  This way I could put some placeholding tags into my dictionaries for the future and then one day hope that the new tags will be implemented.  In the meantime, the dictionaries could be used as is.  Mostly, these tags would deal with grammatical categories or wordforms, etc.


Currently zbedic will "ignore" unknown tags by displaying them as they are.
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kurochka
post Jan 11 2006, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE(rafm @ Jan 4 2006, 12:51 PM)
This tag ({ph}) does not  / should not work.  Once I decided that this tag was a bad idea and I removed it. If there is a trace of this tag somewhere in the documentation, I should remove it.


Reference to this tag is in one of the examples in the bedic-format.txt file.

QUOTE
Currently zbedic will "ignore" unknown tags by displaying them as they are.
*

Understood. But this would look ugly. Is it hard to implement hiding unrecognized tags without taking any action?

By the way, I have ended up using non-combining accent grave (can't remember the Unicode code) as the word emphasis. Now, I can even have word accent for the entry words. I have put accent grave in the ignore-chars list.

By the way, I wonder how wikipedia for zbedic works. Especially, I am interested in inserting pictures in the body of translation field. How can it be done (html?)? WHere should the pictures be? Will mkbedic compile this type of dictionaries?

Thanks.
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rafm
post Jan 15 2006, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE(kurochka @ Jan 11 2006, 10:31 PM)
QUOTE
Currently zbedic will "ignore" unknown tags by displaying them as they are.
*

Understood. But this would look ugly. Is it hard to implement hiding unrecognized tags without taking any action?


Is there a point of keeping in a dictionary file the information that is never displayed? You can easily remove unwanted tags with awk/perl script from a source file.

Another important thing about zbedic parser: if parsing fails, zbedic will display the entry without any parsing.

QUOTE
By the way, I have ended up using non-combining accent grave (can't remember the Unicode code) as the word emphasis.  Now, I can even have word accent for the entry words.  I have put accent grave in the ignore-chars list.


If you give more details how to get those accented characters working under Qtopia, more people could benefit from this. I could put it somewhere in the documentation.

QUOTE
By the way, I wonder how wikipedia for zbedic works.  Especially, I am interested in inserting pictures in the body of translation field.  How can it be done (html?)?  WHere should the pictures be?  Will mkbedic compile this type of dictionaries?
*


Wikipedia is formated as HTML. mkbedic does not check syntax, so there is no problem if entries are html without any proper zbedic syntax. Images should be theoretically possible, but I have not checked where the files should be located.

I though about an extension for an efficient storage of images in zbedic dictionary files. For example, images could be wavelet compressed (dejavu compression?) with lower bit-depth as zaurus screen can handle 6 bits per r,g,b anyway. Question is whether this is worth the effort.
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kurochka
post Apr 10 2006, 09:06 AM
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QUOTE(rafm @ Jan 15 2006, 10:26 AM)
I though about an extension for an efficient storage of images in zbedic dictionary files. For example, images could be wavelet compressed (dejavu compression?)  with lower bit-depth as zaurus screen can handle 6 bits per r,g,b anyway.  Question is whether this is worth the effort.



Having this functionality (having images in the dictionaries themselves) would allow creation of encyclopedias for zbedic. In addition, images could be used for inserting information in the form not supported by bedic format (tables, etc.). The question is how hard is it to implement? Is it worth the effort?

One of these days I will gather my tips about creating bedic dictionaries (e.g., word stress, etc.) and put them in this thread.
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rafm
post Aug 28 2006, 10:54 AM
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QUOTE(kurochka @ Apr 10 2006, 06:06 PM)
Having this functionality (having images in the dictionaries themselves) would allow creation of encyclopedias for zbedic.  In addition, images could be used for inserting information in the form not supported by bedic format (tables, etc.).  The question is how hard is it to implement?  Is it worth the effort?
*


Tables can be put in dictionaries using HTML syntax. I works fine unless the table is too large for the small screen.

zbedic can handle images starting from v1.1. Can be both .jpg and .png. To get better compression, one can experiment with reduction of bit-depth and scaling. Linux 'convert' command from ImageMagick can be useful for these operations.
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kurochka
post Jul 11 2007, 11:00 AM
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I am trying to make the text of different color within the entry with the following html code:

CODE
<font color="red">TEXT</font>


It does not work on Z (but does work on the desktop Linux). Can somebody suggest what is wrong? Does the html widget that is used by zbedic support font color?

Thanks
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Frederic Bergero...
post Jul 11 2007, 05:12 PM
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Does it work if you do this instead ?

CODE
<font color="#ff0000">TEXT</font>
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kurochka
post Jul 13 2007, 10:10 AM
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QUOTE(Frederic Bergeron @ Jul 11 2007, 05:12 PM)
Does it work if you do this instead ?

CODE
<font color="#ff0000">TEXT</font>

*



Thank you for the suggestion. I didn't think that should make a difference but it did.

Hex colors work!
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Posts in this topic
kurochka   Various Questions About Zbedic   Nov 17 2005, 11:59 AM
rafm   QUOTE(kurochka @ Nov 17 2005, 08:59 PM)Nothin...   Nov 17 2005, 02:46 PM
kurochka   I think I am making progress (but very slow). Her...   Nov 26 2005, 07:38 PM
kurochka   Ok, one more question for those in the know. I ne...   Nov 26 2005, 09:06 PM
rafm   QUOTE(kurochka @ Nov 27 2005, 04:38 AM)I thin...   Nov 27 2005, 01:51 AM
kurochka   QUOTE(rafm @ Nov 27 2005, 01:51 AM)I should h...   Nov 29 2005, 08:58 AM
rafm   QUOTE(kurochka @ Nov 29 2005, 05:58 PM)1. Emp...   Nov 29 2005, 01:51 PM
kurochka   Thanks for your responses. I am not complaining. ...   Nov 29 2005, 06:31 PM
kurochka   Here is another quirk that I have noticed. If {ct...   Nov 30 2005, 06:46 PM
rafm   QUOTE(kurochka @ Dec 1 2005, 03:46 AM)Here is...   Nov 30 2005, 11:17 PM
kurochka   QUOTE(rafm @ Nov 30 2005, 11:17 PM)QUOTE(kuro...   Dec 1 2005, 08:46 AM
kurochka   QUOTE(rafm @ Nov 30 2005, 11:17 PM)QUOTE(kuro...   Dec 3 2005, 07:54 AM
kurochka   I have converted English-Ukrainian and Ukrainian-E...   Dec 3 2005, 01:35 PM
kurochka   QUOTE(kurochka @ Nov 29 2005, 08:58 AM)I will...   Dec 24 2005, 06:40 AM
kurochka   A couple of suggestions: 1. Internal Comments. I...   Dec 29 2005, 09:43 AM
rafm   QUOTE(kurochka @ Dec 24 2005, 03:40 PM)Just s...   Jan 4 2006, 12:51 PM
kurochka   QUOTE(rafm @ Jan 4 2006, 12:51 PM)This tag ({...   Jan 11 2006, 01:31 PM
rafm   QUOTE(kurochka @ Jan 11 2006, 10:31 PM)QUOTEC...   Jan 15 2006, 10:26 AM
kurochka   QUOTE(rafm @ Jan 15 2006, 10:26 AM)I though a...   Apr 10 2006, 09:06 AM
ShiroiKuma   kurochka, I'm trying to make a simplified dict...   Apr 10 2006, 10:20 AM
kurochka   QUOTE(ShiroiKuma @ Apr 10 2006, 10:20 AM)kuro...   Apr 12 2006, 01:15 PM
keisangi   QUOTE(kurochka @ Apr 12 2006, 09:15 PM)QUOTE(...   Aug 28 2006, 10:40 AM
rafm   QUOTE(kurochka @ Apr 10 2006, 06:06 PM)Having...   Aug 28 2006, 10:54 AM
kurochka   I am trying to make the text of different color wi...   Jul 11 2007, 11:00 AM
Frederic Bergeron   Does it work if you do this instead ? CODE<fo...   Jul 11 2007, 05:12 PM
kurochka   QUOTE(Frederic Bergeron @ Jul 11 2007, 05:12 ...   Jul 13 2007, 10:10 AM
ludo   Hello kurochka and rafm This is a very interestin...   Dec 19 2005, 07:27 PM
ludo   I can already answer some of my own questions. I r...   Dec 19 2005, 09:03 PM
kurochka   QUOTE(ludo @ Dec 19 2005, 09:03 PM)I can alre...   Dec 20 2005, 02:01 PM
ludo   Rafm, is that possible to create an english-japa...   Dec 22 2005, 07:42 PM
kurochka   QUOTE(ludo @ Dec 22 2005, 07:42 PM)Rafm, is...   Dec 23 2005, 08:58 AM
rafm   QUOTE(ludo @ Dec 23 2005, 04:42 AM)Rafm, is...   Jan 4 2006, 12:32 PM
ludo   Hi I'm interested also in putting images in a...   Apr 11 2006, 06:19 PM


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