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> Flash Card Program For Testing Vocabulary?, Flash card program?
Frederic Bergero...
post Aug 3 2007, 05:41 PM
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Hi Koan,

Next release of toMOTko will support other languages. I hope to make it for the end of August or mid-September. I include some screenshots of the development version. You can see that you can specify a font for a particular language like you mentioned.

Screenshot 1 : From English to German
Screenshot 2 : List of study languages
Screenshot 3 : Font overrides by language

Thanks for your Thai file. When I release version 0.6.0, I will modify it to adjust to the new format of toMOTko and put it on the website (if you don't mind, of course).

Fred

P.S.: We don't see it in the screenshot but Thai language is also supported.
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koan
post Aug 3 2007, 10:12 PM
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QUOTE(Frederic Bergeron @ Aug 3 2007, 05:41 PM)
Thanks for your Thai file.  When I release version 0.6.0, I will modify it to adjust to the new format of toMOTko and put it on the website (if you don't mind, of course).


Hi Frederic,

Nice to see the screenshots of the new version. It's looking good.
I don't mind you updating my file. I will probably update it myself too.

Very glad to see Thai is supported in a language app smile.gif
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Frederic Bergero...
post Aug 15 2007, 06:24 PM
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QUOTE(koan @ Aug 4 2007, 03:12 PM)
Hi Frederic,

Nice to see the screenshots of the new version. It's looking good.
I don't mind you updating my file. I will probably update it myself too.

Very glad to see Thai is supported in a language app :)
*


Hi Koan,

I tried to update your glossary file today but there is something I don't understand.

For each word, you declare 4 elements of data. Let's take the first one as an example :
1) gor gai
2) n (or something that looks like an 'n')
3) n ln (or something that looks like so)
4) chicken, middle class

What are these data? I guess that 4 is the English meaning. But for the rest, I'm not sure. The problem I have is : I don't know where to put this info in the new format.

In the new format (that is very similar to the previous one), I have these fields :

a) English word
b) Thai word
c) Thai pronunciation (or alternate format)
d) Comments/Examples (that can be expressed in English and in Thai)

So I feel that :

4) should go with a).
2) should go with b)
1) should go with c)
3) should go with d)

Am I right?

Or maybe 2) and 3) should be combined together into the same field b) and the comment field d) should be left empty?
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koan
post Aug 15 2007, 11:21 PM
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QUOTE(Frederic Bergeron @ Aug 15 2007, 06:24 PM)
For each word, you declare 4 elements of data.  Let's take the first one as an example :
1) gor gai
2) n (or something that looks like an 'n')
3) n ln (or something that looks like so)
4) chicken, middle class

What are these data?  I guess that 4 is the English meaning.  But for the rest, I'm not sure.  The problem I have is : I don't know where to put this info in the new format. 


I was flexible in the use of the available fields wink.gif

This is a flash card set to help learn the Thai "alphabet" so it's not a normal flash card set with word -> word.

2. is the letter (there are only consonants in this file, I'm still trying to think of a sensible way to do vowels - it's not obvious). This letter is a little bit like a "g"
1. is a "romaji" version of "g is for gai" like "c is for chicken"; In English we make up any word for "A is for xxxxx" but Thai people learn specific objects relating to specific letters.
3. is the same as 1. but spelt in Thai.
4. are notes, gai = chicken, the consonant is middle class.

QUOTE
In the new format (that is very similar to the previous one), I have these fields :

a) English word
cool.gif Thai word
c) Thai pronunciation (or alternate format)
d) Comments/Examples (that can be expressed  in English and in Thai)


I see. It's not straightforward to find the best way to fit this to learning the Thai alphabet. Actually, I should add pronunciation: in addition to 1, Thai consonants change sound depending on if they are at the start of a word or the end.

The other thing is that there isn't a 1-1 mapping between 26 consonants of Roman and 44 consonants of Thai.

QUOTE
So I feel that :

4) should go with a).
2) should go with cool.gif
1) should go with c)
3) should go with d)

Am I right?

Or maybe 2) and 3) should be combined together into the same field cool.gif and the comment field d) should be left empty?
*


Um, I guess it should be

1.) a) English word
2.) cool.gif Thai word
3.) c) Thai pronunciation (or alternate format)
4.) d) Comments/Examples (that can be expressed in English and in Thai)

Perhaps I should have made

1. chicken (g/k)
2. ก (ก ไก่)
3. gor (gor gai)
4. middle class

The g/k is the sound as an initial/final consonant.
Then for the quiz, the best order of revealing would be 2, 3, 1, 4.

Having ก (ก ไก่) combined in one item is not really ideal though because you want to learn that ก is related to ไก่...

Does it make sense ? I'm not sure this helps you define your new format. Any other questions, please ask!
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Frederic Bergero...
post Aug 15 2007, 11:33 PM
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I think it makes sense. Unless an unsuspecting problem occurs, I should release version 0.6.0 of toMOTko this week-end. I will also publish your glossary according to your explanations.

Thanks.
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dsteuer
post Aug 16 2007, 11:50 PM
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All these programs are GUI oriented. Does anybody of you know of a curses based flash program
(using the Leitner-methodology) ?

Detlef
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koan
post Aug 17 2007, 01:26 AM
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QUOTE(Frederic Bergeron @ Aug 15 2007, 11:33 PM)
I will also publish your glossary according to your explanations.


OK, thanks. I will install the new version and check it when it is available.
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Frederic Bergero...
post Aug 17 2007, 02:37 AM
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QUOTE(dsteuer @ Aug 17 2007, 04:50 PM)
All these programs are GUI oriented. Does anybody of you know of a curses based flash program
(using the Leitner-methodology) ?

Detlef
*


The only one I know is latrine.
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Frederic Bergero...
post Aug 17 2007, 08:03 AM
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toMOTko 0.6.0 has been released. Take a look at the release note before installing.

Things I plan to do in the next release are :

- Finish implementing cut, copy and paste.
- Add key accelerators.
- Save/restore the state of the application (expanded tree nodes, quiz, etc.).
- Improved appearance.
- Optimize loading/saving data and tree updating.
- Begin porting to Windows/Linux.
- Etc.

Koan: I will let you update your vocabulary file yourself. After installing the latest version, you can export your glossary and then, edit it (replace 'ja' by 'th') and relocate the data in the appropriate fields (even though the format is not perfect for such a case).
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koan
post Aug 22 2007, 06:36 AM
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@Frederic

I installed the latest toMOTko, thanks for your hard work.

I must admit the filter buttons at the top confused me; I didn't realise that I had imported my file so I imported a few times before I realised that I had to add the language and then set the filter to show it.

So I went to edit my tree.xml but as the imported file is number.xml it was difficult to know which files to remove.

When I switch the filter from English to Thai to Thai to English the Alt/Phon field is empty. I think this must be a bug ? It's the same for other languages.

I think the filter buttons should not be required: if you tap a English to Japanese glossary the right listview should update to English to Japanese. It might be good if there is a button to switch direction though.

A glossary folder can have a description but a glossary file doesn't. Can I suggest adding a description field to each glossary ?

Also, when I export a glossary, it retains the id. If I redistribute the glossary, as for example my Thai glossary, what id should I set ?

thanks

koan
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Frederic Bergero...
post Aug 22 2007, 08:48 AM
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QUOTE(koan @ Aug 22 2007, 11:36 PM)
I must admit the filter buttons at the top confused me; I didn't realise that I had imported my file so I imported a few times before I realised that I had to add the language and then set the filter to show it.


You're right, it can be confusing (especially the first time). I plan to improve that but I wanted to make an early release. In the future, when importing a glossary, I will probably warn the user that the imported glossary contains words in more than 2 languages and/or when the languages are not among the selected Languages of Interest (in the Language Preferences).

This way, the user will be able to select the languages of the data he wants. And the Languages of Interest should be set automatically. About the Language Selectors (comboboxes at the top) I could set them automatically when the imported glossary is in 2 languages only but if it contains more than 2 languages, it's ambiguous and I better not touch it. I could set the Filter off though to make sure that we see the imported glossary in the TreeView.

Imagine for example that a medical glossary file has been translated in English, French, Spanish, and Italian and German, the user should be able to import only English, French and Spanish and omit Italian and German. Doing so should automatically select English, French and Spanish in the Languages of Interest Preferences if they were not already selected and the Filter should be turned Off.

Turning the Filter Off can have a confusing/surprising effect some times as you may not see the words in the right pane if the Language Selector is not properly set. This is a "feature" though as it allows a user to translate a glossary in a third or fourth language as described in the Online Help of the Glossary Manager.

QUOTE
So I went to edit my tree.xml but as the imported file is number.xml it was difficult to know which files to remove.


I understand, especially now that the glossary files are encoded in binary. Of course, this file should not normally be edited :-) You could have removed all the imported glossaries using red cross button in toMOTko's GUI and import it again.

QUOTE
When I switch the filter from English to Thai to Thai to English the Alt/Phon field is empty. I think this must be a bug ? It's the same for other languages.


I'm aware of this. Actually, it's not a bug but rather a choice I made. As you know, the screen's real estate of the Zaurus is quite limited so I chose to display only an Alt field for the Target Language. If I had more space, I would have an Alt field for both Source and Target Language. Practically, we don't need so much an Alt field for the Source Language as this language is usually your mother tongue or a language you're very proficient with. I preferred to spend the space on the Comments field. So the language of study should always be set in the right Language Selector in order to see the Alt field.

QUOTE
I think the filter buttons should not be required: if you tap a English to Japanese glossary the right listview should update to English to Japanese. It might be good if there is a button to switch direction though.


Your idea is good but doesn't work for a Glossary containing translations in more than 2 languages like the previous use case I mentioned before.

The Language Selectors (as I call them) and Filter are very convenient when you're learning more than one language. If you're just learning Japanese, for example, you should leave the Language Selectors to English, Japanese and Filter On, and never touch them again.

If you're learning more than one language, the Filter is very convenient as the TreeView can become quite loaded. If you take a look at my screenshots, you will see.

The Language Selectors are not intended to be used as directional selector but they can be used as such if you don't care about the Alt field. I admit it can be confusing to get used to it. The proper way to set the direction of study is by checking Revealing Orders options in the Quiz Preferences.

QUOTE
A glossary folder can have a description but a glossary file doesn't. Can I suggest adding a description field to each glossary ?


I will think about it. Once again, it's a trade-off I made. The space is limited and I thought it was not essential to have a description for a glossary. Maybe I should add a button besides the title which would invoke a dialog containing Description, Author, Date and other metadata. There is enough room to fit a TextField just over the list of words but I'm not sure if it will be pretty, especially in Portrait mode.

QUOTE
Also, when I export a glossary, it retains the id. If I redistribute the glossary, as for example my Thai glossary, what id should I set ?


It doesn't matter, the number will be ignored when importing the glossary. Instead, a new number will be generated in function of the state of the destination Glossary Manager. You can set it to "1".

Thanks a lot for your feedback. I will think about ways to improve the usability of the application.
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koan
post Aug 23 2007, 04:59 AM
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@Frederic

I updated my glossary - lots of editing! I changed the layout as we had talked about.

One behaviour I think is a bug: if I start toMOTko and select English Japanese my Thai glossary shows up in the treeview and if I select it then the glossary view says "English" at the head of the first column and "Japanese" at the head of the second column, even though it is showing my Thai words.

thanks

koan

P.S. File and new screenshot at my Thai on Zaurus page - see my .sig
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Frederic Bergero...
post Aug 23 2007, 07:37 AM
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QUOTE(koan @ Aug 23 2007, 09:59 PM)
One behaviour I think is a bug: if I start toMOTko and select English Japanese my Thai glossary shows up in the treeview and if I select it then the glossary view says "English" at the head of the first column and "Japanese" at the head of the second column, even though it is showing my Thai words.


I imported your glossary. Thanks for the update. I will publish it on toMOTko's website shortly.

When you say that you see you the Thai words, I think you mean that you see your words, but only the English parts, in the English column, and you see a Japanese column that is empty, right?

If so, this is not a bug but a feature... Even though it's not an obvious one.

First, you mention that when you start toMOTko, you see your vocabulary while English/Japanese are selected. I have a few questions to ask : How do you start toMOTko? Do you really launch it from scratch or do you unsuspend the Zaurus and select the application (that is already opened)? I asked that because in my case, when I start toMOTko, the filter is On (in other words, the "Show all glossaries and terms" is unchecked). Could you tell me if the Filter is On when you start toMOTko?

If the filter is Off, your glossary should be visible even though English/Japanese are selected. You should then turn the filter On and the Thai glossary should disappear from the TreeView. I think that most of time (except maybe when you import new glossaries or translate existing ones), you should always turn the Filter On (i.e. "Show all glossaries and terms" should be unchecked). When the filter is On, you will need to set the Language Selectors to English/Thai to see your glossary. At the moment, the state of the Filter is not saved when we quit toMOTko. It's on the todo list.

Second, I explain why it's a feature and not a bug... As mentioned in my previous message (and in the Online Help), this feature exists in the case you would like to translate a glossary in another language. For example, if I have a animal glossary in English, Japanese and I want to translate it in Spanish, I will turn off the filter and select English, Spanish. In the term list (right pane), I will see the animals in the English column but the Spanish column will be empty. Then, I can select each word and edit it (pencil button). What happens in such a case is that I edit the "en" and "es" <translation> item of the terms.

So in the end, if I may express me in XML, you get something like that :

CODE
<term id="1">
 <trans lang="en"><word>dog</word></trans>
 <trans lang="es"><word>perro</word></trans>
 <trans lang="ja"><word>inu</word></trans>
 <comment languages="en-es">This is a dog.  Eso es un perro</comment>
 <comment languages="en-ja">This is a dog.  Kore ha inu desu.</comment>
</term>
...


So you can learn the same words in different languages. Once a glossary have been translated (partially or completely), you can turn the filter On again.

If you select English/Japanese or English/Spanish or Japanese/Spanish, you will see the same glossary but the data will be displayed in the appropriate language.

This way, it's possible to distribute a glossary in several languages in only one file. That's something I intend to do to write a glossary of animals in English, French, Spanish and Japanese. I could also write a glossary about fruits, vegetables, verbs, etc. People will be able to import only the languages they want. For now though, all the languages are imported.

With this feature, you don't need to edit the XML file to translate an existing glossary, you can use the built-in editing facility of toMOTko.

Finally, I think that if I would put "Non available" or "Not defined" in red, instead of empty entries in the term list that could be easier to understand. What do you think?

Thanks for your feedback. Sorry for the long posts.
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koan
post Aug 23 2007, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE(Frederic Bergeron @ Aug 23 2007, 07:37 AM)
When you say that you see you the Thai words, I think you mean that you see your words, but only the English parts, in the English column, and you see a Japanese column that is empty, right?


No, that's not quite right.
  1. I run toMOTko by tapping the icon, it is not running in the background.
  2. The filter shown is the English-Thai, only Thai glossaries show
  3. I change the filter to English-Japanese, all glossaries show (including Thai)
  4. Tap on Thai glossary - the glossary view shows English-Thai but the column heading for Thai says Japanese. Thai words are show, rendered with Japanese font.
QUOTE
Could you tell me if the Filter is On when you start toMOTko?


Do you mean the filter is set to a language and not blank ?
Yes, as explained it is English-Thai.

QUOTE
Finally, I think that if I would put "Non available" or "Not defined" in red, instead of empty entries in the term list that could be easier to understand.  What do you think?


Well, yes, but I'm not seeing empty entries.

I think it's a good idea to support glossaries that have more than 1 language as some of us are studying more than 1 language, but I think it's problematic for toMOTko's design as toMOTko is a flash card program not a dictionary. I think features like adding images might be more important.

thanks
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Frederic Bergero...
post Aug 23 2007, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE(koan)
Do you mean the filter is set to a language and not blank ?
Yes, as explained it is English-Thai.


When I talk about the filter, I mean the "Show all glossaries and terms" item in the Actions menu.
Filter is On if Show all glossaries and terms is unchecked.
Filter is Off if Show all glossaries and terms is checked.


QUOTE(koan)
  1. I run toMOTko by tapping the icon, it is not running in the background.

  2. The filter shown is the English-Thai, only Thai glossaries show

  3. I change the filter to English-Japanese, all glossaries show (including Thai)

  4. Tap on Thai glossary - the glossary view shows English-Thai but the column heading for Thai says Japanese. Thai words are show, rendered with Japanese font.


Here are some screenshots of what happens when I perform these steps :

(SC1) Before first step : toMOTko is not started yet.


(SC2) After first step : toMOTko has just started.


(SC3) After changing to Eng/Jap. I don't see your glossary. It should appear after the Politics glossary.


(SC4) To see your glossary, I turn off the filter. I click the glossary and I get this :


In SC4, the result is as expected (as mentioned in previous posts).

So I'm unable to reproduce the problem. Could you send me a screenshot of the Z just after the last step and also a zip/tar file of your /home/zaurus/.toMOTko directory. Maybe it could be useful to reproduce the bug.

QUOTE(koan)
I think it's a good idea to support glossaries that have more than 1 language as some of us are studying more than 1 language, but I think it's problematic for toMOTko's design as toMOTko is a flash card program not a dictionary. I think features like adding images might be more important.


The idea to add images (and why not, sounds) is good. Thanks! It's not my priority but I may implement it eventually.

About the design of toMOTko, I agree it's not perfect but, hopefully, it can be improved.
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