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> Freedom Plan, We must be quick! Act NOW!
desertrat
post Apr 17 2007, 09:31 AM
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QUOTE(anonuk @ Apr 17 2007, 03:54 PM)
Im coming round to thinking that 9/11 was simultaneousy an inside job, an al qaeda job and probably another group (or three) got involved also. All the evidence provided in this thread and other 9/11 threads can be found to point to this conclusion just as easily. People see what they want to see.........
My take on it is that Bush probably got the gist of what was going to happen but sat back and let it unfold (much like the Pearl Harbour conspiracy smile.gif). As we all know, at that time Bush's election "victory" was far from convincing and as a man of no talent 9/11 was a godsent. It gave him the opportunity to show the US and the world how "tough" he is and enabled him to act out his wet dreams. Taking advantage of the American people's grief and raising the bogeyman of another 9/11 at every opportunity he kept the Americans cowed and in fear enabling him to wage a war of terror on the world the object of which was to silence some old friends in case they spill the beans on him. The first to go was the Taliban whom the CIA had long funded, next to go was Saddam who had long and fruitful relationship with Bush senior and Cheney.

QUOTE
There is much evidence of a conspiracy against the state of Israel (check UN Human Rights council rulings that have singled out only this country hundreds of times ...
Where is the evidence? I only see blatant and unconditional US support for Israel. The overwhelming majority of UN resolutions which censure Israel are vetoed by the US. The US has exercised its veto more than any other permanent member of the security council by far, and most of the time it is to protect Israel. And in the few resolutions that did get past the US censorship Israel has chosen to ignore tham, yet at the same time insist that the PLO abide by the resolutions that are in Israel's favour. Take the war in Lebanon last summer, whilst the rest of the UN were working their butts off on a resolution calling on Israel to halt the indiscriminate murdering of civilians and wholesale destruction of civilian infrastructure, the US was blocking and delaying at every to allow more time for Israel to complete said destruction on the pretext of destroying Hezbollah. Bolton the then US ambassador to the UN was recently asked about this and he said he was damn proud of what he did. Proud that around 1000 Lebanese civilians died under Israeli bombs and missles? He further said that Israel had every right to defend itself and destroy its enemies - Israel, the US and the West in general always says that Israel has the right to defend itself, however the same rights never seem to extend to the people and countries whose land Israel is occupying (yes, Israel is occupying Lebanese land).

And to add insult to injury, some time after that war there was an incident of car-bombing in Lebanon, Bush had the audacity to jump straight out and accuse Syria of being behind it (but doesn't present any evidence) and said something along the lines of "we will not tolerate Syria meddling in Lebanon and we will stand by the Lebanese government and the Lebanese people" - yeah right, you did plenty of standing by when the Lebanese were being slaughtered by Israeli warplanes. Remember Bush said nothing (in public) about the Lebanese war until a few days into the slaughter.

The West and Germany in particular is so guilty about the Holocaust that they let Israel get away with things that other countries would be damned for. Eg Israel routinely uses weapons of war against unarmed civilians, China does the same in the Tiananmen Massacre, and whilst Israel enjoys billions of dollars of aid and arms per annum from the US, China is still subject to an arms embargo from the US and EU. Now where in all this do you see a conspiracy against Israel?

QUOTE
while ignoring recurring genocides and rights violations in places like Sudan
China's interests are at stake here, whilst China would be extremely unlikely to veto any UN resolution, but with all the hypocrisy and double standards going on the "West" has to make it worth China's while.

QUOTE
and East Timor).
No oil. Next. (Sorry smile.gif)

QUOTE
The world also seems to ignore the fact that Saudi Arabia is a completely  apartheid country where people of some religions are not even allowed to set foot.
Yeah but they're obedient and sells the West nice cheap oil (though not so cheap now since Bush decided to take Iraq's oil for himself). The West has always supported regimes that were beneficial to its interests no matter how nasty they were. Eg in the 1950's Britain and the US plotted and succeeded in overthrowing the popularly elected government of Iran and installed the Shah. The Shah's rule was neither free nor fair and led to Iran's Islamic Revolution. And all because Britain was upset that the pre-Shah government nationalised the oil company which Britain had setup when it invaded Iran during WWII.
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anonuk
post Apr 17 2007, 10:21 AM
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QUOTE(desertrat @ Apr 17 2007, 09:31 AM)
Now where in all this do you see a conspiracy against Israel?


There is obviously a strong bias by the US towards Israel, however this does not negate the strong bias against Israel by most of the rest of the United Nations. I agree with you that the occupation of land by Israel must end, but after spending a month there last year in bomb shelters during the Lebanon war I am not very sympathetic towards the Hizbullah, and neither are many of my Lebanese friends - or many of the Arab inhabitants i met in Israel during the summer who also found bombs raining down on their heads sent by their 'brothers' in lebanon.

Also according to the United Nations, Israel is not occupying any Lebanese land since they withdrew their troops in the year 2000. They are still occupying Syrian land and the West Bank and Gaza strip, but no lebanese land (border was verified by a number of UN missions).

I was just drawing attention to the fact that one small nation seems to get an inordinate amount of press relative to the human rights violations (and often occupation/walls/apartheid and discrimination) going on in other countries around the world and in its immediate region. I was not trying to downplay any human rights violations that Israel has been responsible for over the last 50 or so years.

Israel does cause problems in the Middle East, but so do many of the other countries surrounding it and they are rarely brought to any sort of resolution in the UN or condemned by activists around the world. I think they just make a convenient scapegoat.
Do you honestly believe if Israel didn't exist there would be no Islamist terror anymore?

Not trying to start an argument or anything I was just raising a few points... I have spent most of the last ten years travelling the Middle East and found that the situation on the ground is very different to how it is portrayed in the media and elsewhere.

This thread began with the idea that the media lies, what would make you believe that their version of the Middle East conflict including the lebanon war is in any way balanced?

It was shown that Hizbullah staged and manipulated many journalists into reporting innacurate and overblown facts and statistics, much like during the Jenin 'massacre' where initial figures of thousands dead were quickly revised to 56 dead of which 39+ were armed gunmen. (UN Verified these statistics also).

Anyways, just my 2 cents not meaning to start any wars or anything :-)
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ArchiMark
post Apr 17 2007, 11:56 AM
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QUOTE(desertrat @ Apr 17 2007, 10:31 AM)
QUOTE(anonuk @ Apr 17 2007, 03:54 PM)
Im coming round to thinking that 9/11 was simultaneousy an inside job, an al qaeda job and probably another group (or three) got involved also. All the evidence provided in this thread and other 9/11 threads can be found to point to this conclusion just as easily. People see what they want to see.........
My take on it is that Bush probably got the gist of what was going to happen but sat back and let it unfold (much like the Pearl Harbour conspiracy smile.gif). As we all know, at that time Bush's election "victory" was far from convincing and as a man of no talent 9/11 was a godsent. It gave him the opportunity to show the US and the world how "tough" he is and enabled him to act out his wet dreams. Taking advantage of the American people's grief and raising the bogeyman of another 9/11 at every opportunity he kept the Americans cowed and in fear enabling him to wage a war of terror on the world the object of which was to silence some old friends in case they spill the beans on him. The first to go was the Taliban whom the CIA had long funded, next to go was Saddam who had long and fruitful relationship with Bush senior and Cheney.

QUOTE
There is much evidence of a conspiracy against the state of Israel (check UN Human Rights council rulings that have singled out only this country hundreds of times ...
Where is the evidence? I only see blatant and unconditional US support for Israel. The overwhelming majority of UN resolutions which censure Israel are vetoed by the US. The US has exercised its veto more than any other permanent member of the security council by far, and most of the time it is to protect Israel. And in the few resolutions that did get past the US censorship Israel has chosen to ignore tham, yet at the same time insist that the PLO abide by the resolutions that are in Israel's favour. Take the war in Lebanon last summer, whilst the rest of the UN were working their butts off on a resolution calling on Israel to halt the indiscriminate murdering of civilians and wholesale destruction of civilian infrastructure, the US was blocking and delaying at every to allow more time for Israel to complete said destruction on the pretext of destroying Hezbollah. Bolton the then US ambassador to the UN was recently asked about this and he said he was damn proud of what he did. Proud that around 1000 Lebanese civilians died under Israeli bombs and missles? He further said that Israel had every right to defend itself and destroy its enemies - Israel, the US and the West in general always says that Israel has the right to defend itself, however the same rights never seem to extend to the people and countries whose land Israel is occupying (yes, Israel is occupying Lebanese land).

And to add insult to injury, some time after that war there was an incident of car-bombing in Lebanon, Bush had the audacity to jump straight out and accuse Syria of being behind it (but doesn't present any evidence) and said something along the lines of "we will not tolerate Syria meddling in Lebanon and we will stand by the Lebanese government and the Lebanese people" - yeah right, you did plenty of standing by when the Lebanese were being slaughtered by Israeli warplanes. Remember Bush said nothing (in public) about the Lebanese war until a few days into the slaughter.

The West and Germany in particular is so guilty about the Holocaust that they let Israel get away with things that other countries would be damned for. Eg Israel routinely uses weapons of war against unarmed civilians, China does the same in the Tiananmen Massacre, and whilst Israel enjoys billions of dollars of aid and arms per annum from the US, China is still subject to an arms embargo from the US and EU. Now where in all this do you see a conspiracy against Israel?

QUOTE
while ignoring recurring genocides and rights violations in places like Sudan
China's interests are at stake here, whilst China would be extremely unlikely to veto any UN resolution, but with all the hypocrisy and double standards going on the "West" has to make it worth China's while.

QUOTE
and East Timor).
No oil. Next. (Sorry smile.gif)

QUOTE
The world also seems to ignore the fact that Saudi Arabia is a completely  apartheid country where people of some religions are not even allowed to set foot.
Yeah but they're obedient and sells the West nice cheap oil (though not so cheap now since Bush decided to take Iraq's oil for himself). The West has always supported regimes that were beneficial to its interests no matter how nasty they were. Eg in the 1950's Britain and the US plotted and succeeded in overthrowing the popularly elected government of Iran and installed the Shah. The Shah's rule was neither free nor fair and led to Iran's Islamic Revolution. And all because Britain was upset that the pre-Shah government nationalised the oil company which Britain had setup when it invaded Iran during WWII.
*




With all due respect, desert....

You're totally full of s^*& !!!!

You must be drinking the same kool-aid that ol' danboid is.....

cool.gif
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desertrat
post Apr 17 2007, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE(anonuk @ Apr 17 2007, 06:21 PM)
... but after spending a month there last year in bomb shelters during the Lebanon war I am not very sympathetic towards the Hizbullah, and neither are many of my Lebanese friends - or many of the Arab inhabitants i met in Israel during the summer who also found bombs raining down on their heads sent by their 'brothers' in lebanon.
If people in the Israeli side of the border found it inconvenient, think how much more terrible it had been on the Lebanese side.

BTW this is what the CIA "World Fact Book" has to say about the Lebanon War:

"Hizballah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers in July 2006 leading to a 34-day conflict with Israel. UNSCR 1701, which passed in August 2006, called for the disarmament of Hizballah."

Notice the bias? Hizballah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers, ... [UN] called for the disarmament of Hizballah. Nevermind the hundreds dead and the million or so refugees, and the wanton destruction of infrastructure because they're only Lebanese.

QUOTE
Also according to the United Nations, Israel is not occupying any Lebanese land since they withdrew their troops in the year 2000.
I beg to differ. The Blue Line is a "line of convenience" if you will, to mark where Israel should withdraw from. The UN itself acknowledges that it is not a border.

QUOTE
Israel does cause problems in the Middle East, but so do many of the other countries surrounding it and they are rarely brought to any sort of resolution in the UN or condemned by activists around the world. I think they just make a convenient scapegoat.
Do you honestly believe if Israel didn't exist there would be no Islamist terror anymore?
Could you point to sustained terrorist acts attributable to Muslims prior to about 1970's. I bet you there aren't many if any. It is Israel's continuing occupation of Arab (=>Muslim) land and the US's unconditional support which is fueling all the resentment and anger. Just think, if the Palestinians had access to better weapons do you think they would resort to suicide bombing and other terror tactics?

And even when they don't use terror tactics and eg in the case of Corporal Gilat who was captured fair and square, they are roundly condemned, and Israel's response is wildly disproportionate (http://www.icj.org/news.php3?id_article=3965&lang=en) and all the US says is that Israel has the right to self-defence. The Palestinians are being occupied yet they don't seem to have a right to self-defence. The US & the EU insists that Hamas renounce violence before they will consider resuming aid to the Palestinians, why isn't Israel being held to the same standards? They're not holding onto the occupied lands through love, they're holding onto them through force and violence, killing and bloodshed. And yet the US gives billions to Israel, whilst withholding the piddling tens of millions that it used to give to the Palestinians.

QUOTE
This thread began with the idea that the media lies, what would make you believe that their version of the Middle East conflict including the lebanon war is in any way balanced?

However unbalanced the reporting may be, no reasonable person (or anybody with some semblance of conscience) can justify the destruction of half a country and the slaughter of hundreds of people in response to the kidnapping and killing of a few soldiers. What would the response be if hundreds were kidnapped and tortured (Gitmo)?

QUOTE
much like during the Jenin 'massacre' where initial figures of thousands dead were quickly revised to 56 dead of which 39+ were armed gunmen. (UN Verified these statistics also).

The UN report was based on second hand facts because Israel did not permit any journalists, the Red Cross, UN personnel, into the combat zone until well after combat had died down. And in fact the report was compiled without UN personnel on the ground because they were denied access. BW the UN report says at least 52 dead (ie there were 52 confirmed deaths), truth is nobody knows the exact figures, because as Churchill said "Truth is the first casualty of war".
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desertrat
post Apr 17 2007, 12:34 PM
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QUOTE(ArchiMark @ Apr 17 2007, 07:56 PM)
You must be drinking the same kool-aid that ol' danboid is.....
My excuse is that I was born that way tongue.gif
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anonuk
post Apr 17 2007, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE
If people in the Israeli side of the border found it inconvenient, think how much more terrible it had been on the Lebanese side.


For sure, I agree with you on this 100%. I also think it is stupid to start a war based on two soldiers being kidnapped. But there is more to it than meets the eye. Hizbullah had been waiting for an excuse to fight Israel and Israel also wanted an excuse to finish Hizbullah.
Do you know about the ideology of the Hizbullah?

‘If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them world wide.’ - Hassan Nasrallah

To me that seems a little more than resistance to occupation.

On September 14, 2006, Amnesty International released a report accusing Hezbollah of war crimes during the 2006 conflict with Israel.Human Rights Watch have similarly accused Hezbollah of war crimes in a report issued on August 5, 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizbullah#Background_2

See, it works both ways.. war is not just one persons fault. There isnt always a good and bad guy.

QUOTE
I beg to differ. The Blue Line is a "line of convenience" if you will, to mark where Israel should withdraw from. The UN itself acknowledges that it is not a border.


Israel withdrew to where they should withdraw from, what is the problem exactly? If there is no border what are they meant to do? They withdrew to the UN agreed line. Unfortunately Hizbullah disagree.

QUOTE
The UN report was based on second hand facts because Israel did not permit any journalists, the Red Cross, UN personnel, into the combat zone until well after combat had died down. And in fact the report was compiled without UN personnel on the ground because they were denied access. BW the UN report says at least 52 dead (ie there were 52 confirmed deaths), truth is nobody knows the exact figures, because as Churchill said "Truth is the first casualty of war".


However no more bodies were every found. The Palestinians confirmed the UN body count. Or was there some vast conspiracy to cover up hundreds of bodies that were never found? I have spoken to many people who were in Jenin, on both sides. Thats why I felt I had the right to an opinion. I dont claim to have the truth, just an informed opinion.

As I said originally, some people refuse to accept facts because they dont fit so well with their world view. At least I am open to the fact that I may be one of those people :-)

I dont think there was either side that was right or wrong in the Lebanon war... There isn't usually a clearly defined 100% good/evil in a war situation. Everyone is bad and good on different levels. Clearly there was a huge over-reaction by the Israelis, but many there were terrified and half the country lived in bomb shelters for a month. A stupid corrupt government over-reacted and did not do a good job in deterring anything or anyone.

Anyways I was just pointing out a different view, I didn't expect anyone to accept it.... But its very easy to armchair commentate from thousands of miles away. I have a degree in Middle Eastern Studies focusing on the History of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and have spent a lot of time travelling the region so I thought my opinion might be somewhat valid.

Btw I do love the illuminati conspiracies, did you know the supreme court of Israel has an illuminati pyramid on the roof and many illuminati designs all over the building?

Anyways Im gonna get back to the zaurus stuff and enjoying my new N800, i much prefer the non-political discussions here :-)
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ArchiMark
post Apr 17 2007, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE(anonuk @ Apr 17 2007, 07:02 PM)
Anyways Im gonna get back to the zaurus stuff and enjoying my new N800, i much prefer the non-political discussions here :-)
*


Smartest thing I've heard here for awhile....

wink.gif
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brashley46
post Apr 17 2007, 07:55 PM
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desertrat said, with regard to East Timor,
QUOTE
No oil. Next. (Sorry smile.gif


That turns out not to be the case. East timor has oil rights in the ocean between themselves and Australia which the Aussie government wishes to secure. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0902237.html
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danboid
post Apr 18 2007, 12:54 AM
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Archimark and Charlie:

What do you gain from simply posting childish digs against me? Does it make you feel good name calling? I suppose I should be happy there are only a few such people on these forums as there are many more childish people with no respect for alternate ideologies on many other forums and society in general. As soon as somebody starts promoting ideas which are a break from the norm then people become threatened and such comments sadly inspire these usual remarks:

"CONSPIRACY!" (now a catch-all term for any unconventional idea which has pretty much lost its original meaning, just like indie and alternative rock don't mean anything anymore)

"Kool aid drinker" (He's saying something controversial and hence MUST be on LSD right?)

"David Icke and shapeshifting reptiles" is another thing that gets mentioned nearly every time somebody brings up a conspiracy or something ET related, this is supposed to instantly ridicule anything I say just because David Icke (who warned us of the sorry state the world has sleepwalked into well over a decade before it happened) but got ridiculed himself for believing in reptilian ETs. I'm not saying there are definitely shapeshifting reptiles but I certainly don't dismiss it because of the sheer amount of evidence to support ET life

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...closure+project

http://www.cnes-geipan.fr - The French Governments now publicly open files on UFOs

Who knows what life forms are out there?

Anybody who thinks that earth is the only planet out of billions to have intelligent life and that we're the most intelligent thing out there is being incredibly naive but amazingly (and very sadly) this is still the predominant mindset. As it stands the US government is still trying to shoot down ET craft, plans to build bigger, badder space based weapons (plain stoooopid and VERY expensive) and is withholding the free energy technologies (that people like Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin manufacture) which could save our planet and end all the fossil-fuel related problems.

I read yesterday that 10 US states have legalised impeachment of Bush and Cheney, but I would imagine that is no use unless at least most of the states (30+) also allow it. Does anyone know more on this?

The whole system of US government (Government = Mind Control. govern=control, ment=mind (as in mental)) obviously needs to be totally rethought, if not just out and out scrapped, as we've all now seen just how it can be abused- absolute power corrupts absolutely as they say. Government needs to learn from the open source movement- now that a significant percentage of the US has internet access then there is nothing stopping all the decisions and processes involved in running the country to be openly conducted online so that every US (or whatever country) resident gets to have their say/vote and gets to see exactly where their tax dollars are going.
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charlie
post Apr 18 2007, 04:14 AM
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Chill Dan

I think that the cold wind from the moors must be getting to you.

I was merely pointing out that Danboid is a perfect anagram of David Icke and wondered if you are the same person as the former Coventry City goalkeeper.

If it's any consolation I'm sure that everybody thought that the Rochdale Pioneers had some funny ideas too, but too many capitals, fonts and colours in a signature does seem a little odd.
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desertrat
post Apr 18 2007, 04:56 AM
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QUOTE(brashley46 @ Apr 18 2007, 03:55 AM)
That turns out not to be the case. East timor has oil rights in the ocean between themselves and Australia which the Aussie government wishes to secure.
My apologies. In that case

Coming soon to a cinema near you - The Liberation of East Timor by the Freedom Loving US Armed Forces (Co-starring HM Armed Forces)
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desertrat
post Apr 18 2007, 05:36 AM
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QUOTE(danboid @ Apr 18 2007, 08:54 AM)
I read yesterday that 10 US states have legalised impeachment of Bush and Cheney, but I would imagine that is no use unless at least most of the states (30+) also allow it. Does anyone know more on this?
Could you explain this? Why does it have to be legalised? The House already has the power to impeach the president or am I missing something?

QUOTE
The whole system of US government (Government = Mind Control. govern=control, ment=mind (as in mental))
You've been watching too much Jordan Maxwell smile.gif According to my dictionary "ment" is used as a productive suffix to express the result, product, or means of an action. Eg the action "to achieve", what I achieve is my "achievement". and "to govern", the means to govern is "government".

QUOTE
all the decisions and processes involved in running the country to be openly conducted online so that every US (or whatever country) resident gets to have their say/vote and gets to see exactly where their tax dollars are going.
As long as you make sure Diebold don't make the software which handles the voting biggrin.gif
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ArchiMark
post Apr 18 2007, 05:44 AM
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QUOTE(danboid @ Apr 18 2007, 01:54 AM)
Archimark and Charlie:

What do you gain from simply posting childish digs against me? Does it make you feel good name calling? I suppose I should be happy there are only a few such people on these forums as there are many more childish people with no respect for alternate ideologies on many other forums and society in general. As soon as somebody starts promoting ideas which are a break from the norm then people become threatened and such comments sadly inspire these usual remarks:

"CONSPIRACY!" (now a catch-all term for any unconventional idea which has pretty much lost its original meaning, just like indie and alternative rock don't mean anything anymore)

"Kool aid drinker" (He's saying something controversial and hence MUST be on LSD right?)

[Snip]

*


Sorry danboid for the childish digs.....just too easy of a target I guess....

But, if it's not Kool-Aid you're drinking, then don't know what it is....

Peace.
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desertrat
post Apr 18 2007, 07:41 AM
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QUOTE(anonuk @ Apr 18 2007, 02:02 AM)
Hizbullah had been waiting for an excuse to fight Israel and Israel also wanted an excuse to finish Hizbullah.
Undoubtedly. But in this case Israel's strategy was try and get the Lebanese people to turn against Hezbollah by deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure and areas where civilians are sheltering. The commander in charge of the Israeli forces Maj. Gen. Udi Adam is quoted by CNN as saying "This affair is between Israel and the state of Lebanon. Where to attack? Once it is inside Lebanon, everything is legitimate -- not just southern Lebanon, not just the line of Hezbollah posts." - in other words, systematic destruction.

QUOTE
Do you know about the ideology of the Hizbullah?
‘If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them world wide.’ - Hassan Nasrallah
Why attach so much importance to words when most people do not stand by what they say? Ideology is pure rhetoric. Since WWII, the US has been involved in more wars, invaded more countries and destabilised more countries than any other nation. They invaded North Korea and isntalled a military dictatorship in South Korea. They invaded Vietnam, got a sound beating and fled, but not before destroying North Vietnam's agriculture with Agent Orange and napalm, and for years they blocked Vietnam's entry into the UN and subjected Vietnam to sanctions. They invaded neighbouring countries, Grenada and Panama, and in the case of the latter they abducted the then President of Panama Manuel Noriega (aka Pineapple Face) who was a close friend of the CIA and partnered with them in importing drugs into the US. They financed terrorists and death squads throughout South America to destabilise anti-US governments. None of these actions are enshrined in the US Constitution. And you talk about mere words?

QUOTE
On September 14, 2006, Amnesty International released a report accusing Hezbollah of war crimes during the 2006 conflict with Israel.
And similarly they have released other reports condemning Israel's actions.

QUOTE
Human Rights Watch have similarly accused Hezbollah of war crimes in a report issued on August 5, 2006.
And a day later HRW issued this report
http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/2.htm
documenting "serious violations of international humanitarian law by Israel Defense Forces"

QUOTE
See, it works both ways.. war is not just one persons fault. There isnt always a good and bad guy.
Of course. But the problem is that most people reading the Western press will only get to hear Israel's side of the story -
(i) organisations like Hezbollah and Hamas are deemed to be terrorist organisations by the US and the EU, and anything they (Hezbollah/Hamas) say are automatically deemed not worth reporting (unless they're provocative like "We'll push the Jews into the sea").
(ii) Israel simply has the better PR, their spokespeople usually speaks good English and are mostly eloquent

QUOTE
Israel withdrew to where they should withdraw from, what is the problem exactly? If there is no border what are they meant to do? They withdrew to the UN agreed line. Unfortunately Hizbullah disagree.
Because Hezbollah contends that Israel is occupying their Shebaa Farms. Israel knows perfectly well it's not Israeli land, they say it belongs to Syria, but ironically Syria says it belongs to Lebanon!

QUOTE
I dont think there was either side that was right or wrong in the Lebanon war... There isn't usually a clearly defined 100% good/evil in a war situation. Everyone is bad and good on different levels.
I wholeheartedly agree. What I'm sick of the hypocrisy and double standards. Eg one side kills a bunch of civilians and the killers are labelled terrorists and the civilians are victims of terrorism, the other side kills a bunch of civilians and the killers are just doing their job whilst the victims are just collateral damage and another statistic.

And as a consequence of America's war of terror now any country wishing to suppress domestic critics simply has to label them terrorists and they automatically have a carte blanche to silence those critics.
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Fushnchupsh
post Apr 18 2007, 09:05 AM
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I do agree that the US government does need to be rethought a bit. Despite our massive action on the world scene (idiocy or intelligence, it doesn't matter) we are a young country, yet. I think we need to return to what alot of the early thinkers thought. We need 50 linked, yet independent states. Globalization has affected the united states as much as it has affected the world. No longer am I a yankee I am just another person from the united states. We have given up our individual cultures and practices and obliged the federal government in ways that have nullified much of the states powers. We've pretty much all become homogenous.

Oh, and the homeland security dept. Well, it destroyed the system of checks and balances.


--Fish
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