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chayimkirshen
Has anyone even touched the Motorola e680? It runs linux, has an 192Mhz arm, SD slot, built in bluetooth, and is a telephone! I was going to buy a C3k, but have am giving a tonne of thought to this thing, especially as it's only $550 in Canada (if you want a URL email me). Oh, and did I mention that it runs Qtopia Phone Edition?

So... anyone have any good knowledge? The people on the 680 boards (at least the English ones), clearly aren't linux users, so their data hasn't been helpful. As an aside, it is possible to telnet into the machine.

--chayim
B_Lizzard
Actually, I believe it's a 300mhz Xscale...I read that In most reviews I encountered.

I found a GOOD deal in ebay.I bet youre talking about canadian dollars but I wouldn't know the diffirence so here.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...5744607176&rd=1

And another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...5744563886&rd=1
B_Lizzard
Hello, just a quick question.I saw that the E680 uses Qtopia Phone Edition, by Trolltech.I searched their FAQ about compatabillity issues between the Qtopia PDA Edition and Phone Edition and I found nothing.That probably means that, whatever works on the 5x00 line of PDAs, will theoraticly work on the E680 too, right?

Right? Probably some small compatabillity issues (No keyboard, somewhat diffirent hardware) but nothing really radical.Can anyone confirm this?

Huh? huh.gif

Anyways, Thanks. cool.gif
chayimkirshen
B,

Most of the reading I've done seems to indicate that the filesystem is different. The screen is a different size as well (not much though). Check out the e680 forum on HowardForums.com (just do a search) for the answer to the filesystem question.
Shawn at theKompany mentioned that they're trying to get some units to do some porting on. At least that's a great first step! I've emailed Motorola as well, to ask them if it's possible to get a developer kit, etc. for porting.
I'm also going to contact MontaVista linux and see where I get.
B_Lizzard
Wow! Great!

I thought that screen size does not count, just resolution.Is that correct?
I guess there are no really big hardware diffirences between the 5x00 line of zaurii(?) and the E680.So, porting would be quite easy.Porting OSs would not be that simple, because of the diffrent features (Phone, whatever) but certainly possible.Once compatabillity problems are surpassed, and all programs work just like the 5x00s, a NEW AGE in cell phones will start.Well, not really, but, you get the picture.

I like seeing such motivated people though. Go chayimkirshen, gooooooo!!!
Also, go Shawn Gooooo, and go Montavista goooooo....I guess thats all. wink.gif
lpotter
I just thought I should clarify something. This is a very common misunderstanding... the e680 does NOT run Qtopia Phone Edition on it. Motorola has been developing their own phone software using Qt Embedded for several years, so Zaurus Qtopia apps will not run on this.
B_Lizzard
Uh huh...ok...

I wasn't talking about that though.And even if it runs a custom version using QT, that doesn't mean you can't "port" other OSs like, let's say.....Cacko.Does it?

I still haven't figured out all this "reflashing" and replacing roms and whatever.When replacing roms, let's say...the original sharp ROM with PdaXrom, do you keep anything from the old sharp ROM? The kernel?

Anyways, It's all about compatabillity.Since I'm not seeing anyone developing apps specifically for the Moto, someone should "port" an OS for it, effectivelly making it compatible with the hundreds of apps out for the 5x00 series of the Zaurus.

Something like this: “If the mountain does not go
to Muhammad, Muhammad goes to the mountain”.

Only a BIT modified: "If those Zaurus Apps do not get ported to the Moto, the Moto get's a ported version of the Cacko ROM (Or theKompany's ROM) and is compatible with all those Zaurus apps".

Get it? Everyone wins. wink.gif
lpotter
Yes, you could 'port' Zaurus apps to qt/e and motorola's gui, but I am not sure if they will have an sdk available, I can do some checking.

As far as flashing is concerned, flashing means it replaces everything on that partition. The larger Zaurus have two partitions, and the /home directory is not necessarily touched when flashed.


Due to telecommunications regulations every country has, reflashing a mobile phone with a homebrewed OS is most likely illegal, and is not recommended. Phone operators have other issues as well, such as security on their networks.
B_Lizzard
I guess what you say is right, about reflashing your OS with a "homebrew" one.
I guess It's still fairly early in the Linux Smartphone area.Things might heaten up...I dunno.

But, then again, I guess It would be legal if a big company like theKompany or whatever released their own OS.First of all, why would they release a illegal product, that nobody will use? Homebrew might be illegal, because of the unceartainty, but distributions from big and respected Kompanies is not.I guess.

We will just have to wait and see.Early adopters are always in for some hard times.

Anyways, I'll probably ask around, but If someone has connections around here(Like YOU, lpotter) try to dig up any info you can find (If you're interested, that is).
lpotter
QUOTE(B_Lizzard @ Jan 18 2005, 06:36 AM)
I guess what you say is right, about reflashing your OS with a "homebrew" one.
I guess It's still fairly early in the Linux Smartphone area.Things might heaten up...I dunno.

But, then again, I guess It would be legal if a big company like theKompany or whatever released their own OS.First of all, why would they release a illegal product, that nobody will use? Homebrew might be illegal, because of the unceartainty, but distributions from big and respected Kompanies is not.I guess.

We will just have to wait and see.Early adopters are always in for some hard times.

Anyways, I'll probably ask around, but If someone has connections around here(Like YOU, lpotter) try to dig up any info you can find (If you're interested, that is).
*


I can tell you with certainty that phone operators do not want you to have homebrewed Os on their networks. Its a huge security risk. and like I said before, there are government regulations regarding phone software. Regardless if The Kompany wishes to implement their own systems, they would likely have to get it "certified" in dozens of countries, which is expensive. Then they would probably have to have permission of the phone operators to allow it on their networks.

Tampering with communication devices is illegal in many places. It is not recommended. It's not like a pda.
B_Lizzard
Ok, thank you for making me understand all of this stuff.I guess that people will have to "Start all over" and newly 'port' or develop apps for the Moto.

I guess that it's still early but, from what I've seen, things are a bloody mess.Half of the Linux Smartphones use MontaVista Linux, some others use Qtopia Phone Edition, others use a custom build....What the hell? If there is no common point in all of them (e.g Compatabillity) how will Linux Devices prosper? What, Devs will have to code new programs each time a new Linux Powered Smartphone comes out?

Look at this! http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT9423084269.html

What the hell is that, a banana?

As a final note, I think the Motos use MontaVista Linux.
Here, check it out:
http://www.mvista.com/dswp/stories/motorola.html

I guess I'm too attached to Symbian.

Out.
chayimkirshen
And, I've gotten the complete runaround from both Motorola and Montavista. It appears that they have no real interest in any form of private applications running on their phones.
As for what l_plotter said about illegalities and whatnot, that's somewhat true. Hence the e680 not being available for sale from the carriers in Canada. You see, in Canada we don't actually have the archaic regulations (software wise at least) as the US. Working in a wireless company in the past, I can say that we were not, nor were we planning to get gov't certified on the software end. At least this is true the time I was there.
As for my dreams of an e680, if neither Motorola nor Montavista feel like helping, the dreams will die. I'd much rather buy a well supported P900 from Sony, then a non supported anything from Motorola.
kopsis
There's really more behind the barriers to getting custom software on mobiles than just network security and vendor certification. That's the story they'll give you, but the truth is that the real motivation for handset makers locking down the OS is that the wireless carriers are demanding it. Why? $$$ smile.gif

The last thing in the world that wireless carriers want is for people to be able to install free content on their phones! Carriers like Verizon offer app and content downloads to the phones from their own tightly controlled servers. And of course they make money on every piece of content downloaded. Carriers are going to do everything in their power to keep the OpenSource world out of their handsets because in their mind that would cut into their content sales. They're ok with Moto using an OpenSource OS so they don't have to pay Symbian/Microsoft/Palm for an OS licence, but they're not going to offer free (or even affordable SDKs) nor do anything else to make it easy for OpenSource app developers.

That doesn't mean that developers won't find a way to get apps on the phone, but it does mean that Moto is probably going to do everything they can to get in the way. I went down this path with Brew (Qualcom's OS) development and it was very much "pay to play". Don't expect Linux smartphones to be any different. Just because the kernel is "free" doesn't mean the rest of the OS has to be.
lpotter
QUOTE(kopsis @ Jan 18 2005, 10:02 AM)
There's really more behind the barriers to getting custom software on mobiles than just network security and vendor certification. That's the story they'll give you, but the truth is that the real motivation for handset makers locking down the OS is that the wireless carriers are demanding it. Why? $$$ smile.gif

The last thing in the world that wireless carriers want is for people to be able to install free content on their phones! Carriers like Verizon offer app and content downloads to the phones from their own tightly controlled servers. And of course they make money on every piece of content downloaded. Carriers are going to do everything in their power to keep the OpenSource world out of their handsets because in their mind that would cut into their content sales. They're ok with Moto using an OpenSource OS so they don't have to pay Symbian/Microsoft/Palm for an OS licence, but they're not going to offer free (or even affordable SDKs) nor do anything else to make it easy for OpenSource app developers.

That doesn't mean that developers won't find a way to get apps on the phone, but it does mean that Moto is probably going to do everything they can to get in the way. I went down this path with Brew (Qualcom's OS) development and it was very much "pay to play". Don't expect Linux smartphones to be any different. Just because the kernel is "free" doesn't mean the rest of the OS has to be.
*


In the US, cell phones are regulated by the FCC. There are certain regulations regarding the modification of equipment/software (47CFR2.932 section 'e' to be exact). They DO have to be certified. Other countries of course, will be different.

There are phones that do want 3rd party applications on their phones, and will have proper Qtopia Phone sdk's available.
chayimkirshen
The unfortunate problem is that of market timing. While there may be eventually be SDKs (and excellent ones at that if they're standard trolltech fare), they may be too late for the market.
Even though carriers will be quick to test a product, they're never quick to deploy. The e680 for example has been in testing for about 2 years. Well during that time the Phone/PDA market has been lost to both Palm (Trio 600/650) and Sony (Pxx phones). Admittedly I too want a QT enabled phone, but if I buy a Pxxx now, I'm not going to be upgrading for a few (3?) years. And this is the same problem others will have.
lpotter
QUOTE(chayimkirshen @ Jan 18 2005, 10:18 AM)
The unfortunate problem is that of market timing.  While there may be eventually be SDKs (and excellent ones at that if they're standard trolltech fare), they may be too late for the market. 
Even though carriers will be quick to test a product, they're never quick to deploy.  The e680 for example has been in testing for about 2 years.  Well during that time the Phone/PDA market has been lost to both Palm (Trio 600/650) and Sony (Pxx phones).  Admittedly I too want a QT enabled phone, but if I buy a Pxxx now, I'm not going to be upgrading for a few (3?) years.  And this is the same problem others will have.
*


Then you might not want to purchase a phone till Qtopia phones start being released later this year.
smile.gif
chayimkirshen
Alright lplotter, I'll bite. Obviously you can't spill the beans, but do you know if any of them will sync via bluetooth to OSX? It can either use iSync or QtopiaDesktop, but my goal is a bluetooth sync to osx. Any shot you can let us know (grovel..)

=)
B_Lizzard
I thank you (With you I mean Trolltech) for trying to expand the Linux Phone Market, and make it more...."Open Source", but most of the phones based on Qtopia don't look all that good....not your fault, but...

The only Linux Phones I like are the Moto E680 and the E28 E2800+.Both are NOT Qtopia based.Are there any other, better looking phones in the works that use Qtopia?

Aaaahh, I'll probably go with Symbian, or just keep my 7 year phone and buy a normal PDA.Linux still sounds like a good Idea, though.I just hope you make the Qtopia enviroment more "Open".And mabye try to convince those damn manufacturers to make better looking phones.

Thanks wink.gif
lpotter
QUOTE(B_Lizzard @ Jan 19 2005, 03:01 AM)
I thank you (With you I mean Trolltech) for trying to expand the Linux Phone Market, and make it more...."Open Source", but most of the phones based on Qtopia don't look all that good....not your fault, but...

The only Linux Phones I like are the Moto E680 and the E28 E2800+.Both are NOT Qtopia based.Are there any other, better looking phones in the works that use Qtopia?

Aaaahh, I'll probably go with Symbian, or just keep my 7 year phone and buy a normal PDA.Linux still sounds like a good Idea, though.I just hope you make the Qtopia enviroment more "Open".And mabye try to convince those damn manufacturers to make better looking phones.

Thanks  wink.gif
*



There are no phones based on Qtopia Phone Edition released as of yet.

Qtopia PDA is open, it is available under the GPL.
speculatrix
Why no fully opensource GSM mobiles?

It's not a well-known fact that many companies buy-in their protocol stack for GSM (this is the program which does all the GSM signalling, making calls, de/encoding audio, doing data, sms etc).
GSM is also encrypted, with the keys hidden inside the SIM, but when the call is running the sessions keys need to be available to the GSM call processor. If someone had those keys, they could clone SIMs, listen in to other's phone calls etc.
Many GSM phones' hardware will only be compliant with telco legislation in a specific country when run with specific software.

So, the problem with a linux smartphone is that you'd have to partition the system into two parts, a closed-source locked-down secure OS (or co-processor), and the open-source part. This makes it hard to optimise power consumption, talk time etc.

It's easier to simply have a GSM phone module which has no user interface at all, and is controlled through a tightly defined interface which makes it relatively secure; this leads to designs like the PCMCIA/CF data cards, or modules like the springboard phones that worked with the handspring visor.

Paul
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