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handheld-linux
Dear all,

we are a small online reseller in Europe focussing on improving the World by selling Handheld Linux devices - currently all available Sharp Zaurus models.

Every now and then, we come across announcements of new Linux based PDAs and Smartphones. Most of them are vapourware or design studies that never see a shop - remember the Royal LineaLX?.

But sometimes, we find something that is more real. This time it comes from a company in Asia and they have shown it last and again this year on CeBIT. Unfortunately, they don't have a brand themselves and they don't sell single unit quantities. So you and we can't simply order like with the Sharp Zaurus.

So, my approach is that if there shows up enough interest (meaning approx. 1000 devices per year) amongst you and your contacts, and we can raise some pre-investment money, we would approach them to make e.g. a ZUG branded device.

Attached are pictures of a PDA (the screen shows WinCE but they have Qtopia) and a Smartphone (more or less prototypes/platforms) and some spec:

PDA (seems to be similar to a Zaurus A300):
* 3''5 QVGA (320x240) touchscreen, no keypad
* Freescale ARM 200MHz
* 64 MB RAM, 64 MB Flash
* Speaker, Headphone, Microphone
* SD slot (no CF)
* IrDA, USB
* Linux 2.4 kernel, Qtopia
* Options: Bluetooth, WLAN, Camera, USB Host, FM Radio

Smartphone:
* 3'' QVGA (320x240) touchscreen, pull-out QWERTY keypad
* Freescale i.MX21 350MHz
* 64 MB RAM, 64 MB Flash
* Triband, GPRS Class 10
* WLAN integrated
* Speaker, stereo Headphone, Microphone
* SD slot (no CF)
* 1'3 Mpix CMOS camera
* IrDA, USB
* Linux 2.4 kernel, Qtopia

As I haven't seen the smartphone in operation, I can't tell anything more. Generally, specs seem to have some flexibility, as they make customized devices.

I have no idea on the price because that is part of negotiations - so, if you are interested, please tell how much you would value such a device (compared to the price of a Zaurus).

Nikolaus
http://www.handheld-linux.com
BarryW
I would like to see something about the size of my newton. Doesn't have to be as thick but the screen size really helps in writeing on the screen. Unfortunetly I'm waay too far in live with 640X480 screen res on handhelds. 320X240 just looks crappy to me now.
darkloran
i'm really happy with my zaurus SL-C3000 ! biggrin.gif
well i'd like a bigger hard drive [10GB would make it] a faster processor [1GhZ would be great] and a bigger RAM [192MB] and an open "environment" to be able to install a Fedora for example, but really the sl-c3000 is the pda i've been waiting for since i bought my first visor in 2000. Currently i am satisfied with my Z and won't change it except if it was broken...

loran
tg
We need a high end device like Zaurus c1000 with the following added:

1. either another cf slot or built in wifi/gprs
2. faster processor
3. double memory
4. screen from z6000
5. better battery life if possible

I'd easily pay $1000 for that (probably even more).
amrein
Everyone ask for more memory of more powerful processor. For me, wifi + bluetooth + localised keyboard are the most important hardware feature to add to the SL-C3000 (and GSM/GPRS/UMTS + camera if I wanted a smartphone).

But the Qtopia linux desktop fiasco and the fact that there is no real KDE/Gnome like active open source community prevent me at present to think about buying a device like this. It would smell like open source but will be just as closed source as any other PocketPC/PalmOS device. Even more true if it is a smartphone.

The Zaurus community: a lot of geeks, a few real developpers, a lot of strategy to slow down or kill not controled open source initiative. My SL-C760 + pdaXrom rc9.1 is enough to fit my current need (even if I really don't like ipkg, matchbox desktop and the "no developper community needed" feeling).
nequiem
I don't think there are enough people here to justify a ZUG branded version of anything and expect to sell 1000 units per year. Most are happy with their imported Zaurii and, unless you offer something substantially better, it will be a tough sell. It would be an astounding feat to offer something both cheaper and better than the current Zaurus line of PDA's and hope to show a profit.

The one product that is missing in Sharp's offerings are smartphones. I find it puzzling that they dropped the prototype they were working on because that's where the industry and money is going.

The specs of those devices mentioned won't appeal to many here. A smartphone comparable to the specs of a low end Z with Windows Mobile as an option is probably the best solution. The Windoze market has very few smartphones with an integrated keyboard, so offering a dual OS option would increase exposure and sales. ZUG people are in love with the 4" VGA screen, but my guess is it's pretty expensive to integrate.

What's wrong with using Qtopia as the default? Uber-geeks are going to flash to new ROMs anyway as they become available and Qtopia phone edition is simple enough to get the Joe Sixpack's and suits of the world on board. There are a lot more Joe's in the world than uber-geeks. Who do you think the lion's share of Zaurii are being sold to in Japan? Joe + sales = future toys.

An ideal smart phone (to me) must have:

PXA255/PXA270
128MB of RAM, 64MB of flash ROM
At least a QVGA screen.
Qtopia phone edition
IR
docking station or cable synching method
OK / Cancel / Navigational buttons

Should have:
Integrated WLAN
SDIO slot
non-membrane keyboard that can be localized (swappable).

Nice to have:
a dedicated on/off button
mini USB host
Bluetooth
jog dial
Screen protection

A high-end model might have:
built-in HDD or large flash
built-in camera

Supposing the money pops up and 1000 people agree to buy. Who is going to do support and repair? You have a very nice selection of products on your site, by the way, Nikolaus.
ev1l
If that's the specs a Linux smartphone are going to sport, just give me a good GPRS card with an OSS application layer on top.
QUOTE(nequiem @ Mar 18 2005, 07:04 PM)
What's wrong with using Qtopia as the default?

There's nothing wrong with it per se, it's just that Sharp's idea of it left a bitter taste in many people's mouth.
adf
of course, sharp's idea of linux is pretty strange, too.
As for this proposed device.
Why kernel 2.4?
why qvga? I hate websurfing in qvga. vga is small enough... a qvga can't really evn pretend to replace a laptop for even the simple task of web browsing IMHO.

is the entire thing OPEN SOURCE? no proprietary drivers?

why qtopia? why not gtk x and blackbox. with the right key setup blackbox can rock on a handheld-- maybe xfce for the aesthetes---

This is a silly design--it is pretty much a zaurus all over again, warts and all 3 years later....even maybe named after the ZAURUS User Group.

The idea of a low cost open pda is great. but maybe the mistakes made on the zaurus shouldn't be repeated.

still, put on 2.6, open source everything, publish ALL the specs and sell it for $us 175, or thereabouts and it could get interesting.

Here is a better solution. put debian arm (sarge) on it, native, not chrooted or any other workaround. allow it to boot from and run its os on expansion cards. make it vga. sell it for $us 350. make afaster bigger, more expandable version in 18 months... sell it for $us 600. put the debian logo on it, or a penguin, or something.

good luck with it though... you are almost on the right track.
JohnKiniston
My $0.02

Make the camera a option if its going to have one, Either CF or USB or some other kind of removable interface.

Not everyone works where cameras are allowed and phones that only come with a camera are not a option for those people.

Having the Camera, Bluetooth and WIFI be options via CF or USB would help keep the costs down on entry level devices as well.
B_Lizzard
The way I see it, the Zaurus has already covered the Handheld Linux Area (Ok, this and Handhelds.org devices).The only thing that would sell is probably a nice little little smartphone.But, in order to be succsefull, it should be a "clean" product, not a rushed one.Here's what I reccomend:

In terms of form factor, the Smartphone in question should at least have the minimum assortement of buttons (Yes-No buttons,small Joystick-like thingie) if not a full number pad.Recomended:

A nice phone, if not a bit fat

The Sony Ericsson P910

Another "Good Looking" phone, with a nice form factor

Second of all, Qtopia for Smartphone should be used to maximise compatabillity between the Zaurus and the Smartphone in question.

In terms of specs, I guess this is enough:

Either a ARM9 or a Intel pxa 270 could do the job, with clock frequency at about 300 mhz.Thats enough for most of the apps around.
64 MB of RAM and somewhere between 64-1024 tongue.gif MB for ROM is enough.
A SD card slot with IO would be nice (SDIO).IR is also good.USB (Either 1.1 or 2.0 is ok, altough 2.0 would speed things up.WIFI and Bluetooth would be nice, but expensive.Bluetooth does the job.Triband GSM.
The screen should be somewhere between 2.5 inches up to 3.7 inches wink.gif .

Thats all I can think of.Anyways, If the product is good enough people might buy it.But, the way I see it, people don't need more power.They use their Zaurii as their PDAs and their normal phones as....phones.They don't go buy two products, if one does the same thing better.Get it? unsure.gif
lpotter
There's very good reason for the way Sharp did it. One of them being that it's easy to reset the device to a known state.
Kernel 2.4 works fine, it's stable and tested and it works. Nothing wrong with it.

Why Qtopia? Because it is ready now, works and looks pretty. Plus you have a company to fall back on when you want support, unless you choose the GPL version, but that will leave you out of Qtopia Phone. Have you tried gtk, bb and x at 176x220? It's far from being ready for production. For hackers that like to mess around with their devices it might be ok.

I hate to inform you of this, but there isn't a phone manufacturer or operator on the planet that is going to let you have easy access to the system. Some phones don't even let you install 3rd party applications. Why? Security and legality reasons. Phones are highly regulated devices, not like PDA's.

Putting Debian on a handheld is overkill, and is just silly. Which is why there aren't any handhelds shipping with debian.
B_Lizzard
lpotter,I already know this, the phone security thing (For those who don't go HERE) but how come, even if phone companies don't let you hack the phone's software, and even laws are made about that, tell me, how come there are GSM cards out there that can, with the help of simple software, make any device with a CF or PC card slot a fully funcional phone? Are there no security risks there? With that simple software, a Windows Laptop could become a phone, the Zaurus with PdaXrom could be a phone, the Zaurus with OpenZaurus could be a phone, a Pocket PC could be a phone...and all without security risks, wilst the other way around would be law breaking?

Please, elaborate on this, cause we need to clear this up.
adf
lpotter. assuming that a 2-300mhz arm w/ a qvga or less screen is what defines a handheld is the silly position.
We see improvements in screens, processing power, memory and storage almost continuously.
Given that your assumptions fly in the face of reality (that qtopia support is meaningful to the end user and that your hardware assumtions are valid today, never mind next year) The silly position is yours. Pdaxrom works very nicely on now obsolete boxes. Quite a few of the z6000 users are in fact using debian via xqt and a chroot now (and taking a performance hit to do it through all that overhead), and pdaXrom users also chroot to debain, though most of 'em seem to use ice windows or xfce (both heavier than bb). Are you contending that these are are either stupid or non-existant? Or that they are just being mindlessy geeky rather than that they are looking for a more complete system? The fact is handhelds are getting more powerful, and more people want to really make use of them as tiny computers rather than expensive notepads.If it were 100 years ago would you be yelling "get a horse? "
And, should I mention that if I want a qtopia that is newer than 3 years old to run on my z, I absolutely have to abandon support of any kind? (what kind of direct support from trolltech am I entitled to now, btw?--besides having you on the forums?) There is much more of an open source community built around standard, open stuff like X and gtk... hence a source of community support. extremely limited support that sticks me with a 3 year old system doesn't really excite me, or, I suspect, anyone else. I'm not saying the QT library stuff is worthless--I like KDE on my sid box.but... isn't there a lot of X going on under kde? If Trolltech wanted to make an open handheld interface using X and qt--a kind of light kde (with the ability to run gtk apps) I'd be fascinated.

On the phone issue I agree. A tiny very light device w/ a small screen and a few pretty buttons to work the pim suite is just the thing demanded by the market, and Qtopia can serve that market very well. The idea of a pocket computer is rather a different thing, though, and if it is to be a linux pocket computer, then it should be opensource and work on standard community based toolkits.
Maybe you are contending that a linux pocket computer shouldn't exist? or that there is no market for such a thing? ZUG would be a strange place to do so...

as to some of your other ideas... a brick is easy to reset to a known state too... and so is any computer whose storage can be imaged. Qtopis and/or sharp really don't have a corner on imaging.

and the comfort of "corporate support" angle is Microsoft's pitch, If I recall correctly. It is a big reason why so many buisnesses use ms products (not that it is necessarily the best choice, just the comforting one)

sorry to be so wordy,
adf
nequiem
adf. lpotter didn't write anything about QVGA and 200-300mhz defining a handheld and neither did anyone else. For a regular PDA, VGA is great. Heck, go crazy and make it SVGA if you want to go cross-eyed trying to read stuff. But that doesn't apply to a smartphone, which is what I was referring to.

A smartphone with 4" VGA screen and the dimensions of a brick isn't going to fly for average Joe. Joe wants something he can fit in his pocket that "just works". He wants a toaster with PIM, games, & email. He doesn't care about all the marvelous benefits to be had by running Gentoo on his phone. That said, i don't think it's "silly" and "overkill" to want to be able to do that if you have the technical proficiency and the spare time. If someone wants to run X, Debian & Firefox on their wristwatch, more power to them.

As far as support goes, Joe isn't going to want to go to a forum to get support and be told "RTFM". He needs a number to call, so he can have his hand held. What I'm getting at here is you need Qtopia or MontaVista over Linux to make Joe happy and an SDK would be nice to make uber-geek happy. Expect to get either indifference or resistance to anything else from hardware makers.

In regards to a "Linux pocket computer", I think more OQO like devices will be made and in smaller sizes, so there is a market for that and it might even get corporate support. You are not going to get enough customers for an "all geek" PDA to make it profitable.

Thanks for clearing up the smartphone legality issue, lpotter. That reveals why Linux smartphones are so few in number despite the free OS and why Sharp dropped their phone.

PDA's are evolving into convergence devices and with that comes lockdown due to DRM and communications legalities. People brought this on themselves by stealing IP. Linux will have to comply with DRM or be left out. It sucks, but that's the future.
LadyBug
Give me a well integrated Linux smartphone in Nokia 9300 form factor and I'll buy it ASAP. I don't need a camera etc, but I want the keyboard in a format that I can actually hold in my hand while talking. The prototypes in the first post are sadly lacking in the usability front.
adf
. He did mention a sub qvga res.

The thread is on both pda and smartphones

was pretty clear on my agreement w/ potter's position re phones

I think, though that there is a real market for powerful sub-sub-sub notebooks (z clamshell sized)-- I have spoken to wince and palm pda owners who
say they would love such a device. There are alot of people for whom a pda doesn't cut it and who don't want the laptop "ball and chain"
Smartphones won't fill this niche either--though a simple phone that connected easily to the handheld would sell to this market.

My point is that Qtopia as it is now would do nicely on the smartphones, but I think a linux based handheld will need a more versatile,interface w/ a bigger software base

Qtopia does what it does well. Would you want your desktop to run it? Would you put a desktop w/ qtopia ( only, not kde) against wnXP or osX in
a marketing or funtionality showdown?

The idea of a "handheld computer" is a very different thing than a pda or smartphone. Look at the evolution of the use and functions of laptops...
I think a tiny version is happening in parallel, and that if linux is going to have a peice of that market, it is going to have to be fully functional...
Think of the obstacles to development and progress on the Z--- all to do w/ closed source components. A hndheld needn't have such components, though a phone must, apparently.
I am happy enough to use a modem, aor a cheap cellphone to connect to the various telephone networks... and would happily buy a cheap cell to keep my handheld open sourcce.
It has been the open nature of linux that has made it develop, and garner what success it has. When a coporate liason (even from as benign a company as trolltech) starts talking about
how linux devices need to become closed source or extinct I start looking for the catch..

Pss the devices in questio are @300 mhz arms btw..w/ qvga screens.
euroclie
QUOTE(lpotter @ Mar 19 2005, 08:25 PM)
I hate to inform you of this, but there isn't a phone manufacturer or operator on the planet that is going to let you have easy access to the system. Some phones don't even let you install 3rd party applications. Why? Security and legality reasons. Phones are highly regulated devices, not like PDA's.

What exactly do you mean by "let you have easy access to the system"? Do you mean access to the network stuff (SIM toolkit, GSM/GPRS settings and info, etc.) or just access to the general system (i.e. the OS part that handles the display, keyboard, sound, etc.)?

I can certainly understand why manufacturer / operators would restrict your access to the network stuff, but they do not need to care about the rest of the OS, and there are a few smartphones available on which you have an almost complete access to the system - as long as you don't try to mess with the network part, of course...
adf
When someone issues such sweeping assertions, it is sometimes useful to know the source of their cashflow..... I would't want trolltech to go under, or potter to become disreputable. But the position stated is the one whereby trolltech gets ahead in the world. Better them than MS, but maybe it is a limited assement they provide?
tovarish
QUOTE(LadyBug @ Mar 20 2005, 10:27 PM)
Give me a well integrated Linux smartphone in Nokia 9300 form factor and I'll buy it ASAP. I don't need a camera etc, but I want the keyboard in a format that I can actually hold in my hand while talking. The prototypes in the first post are sadly lacking in the usability front.
*



your wish has just been answered. now shell out the cash
i like this one enough to consider trying it
http://www.pdalive.com/showarticle.php?threadid=8090

tovarish
nequiem
This is an awesome concept but as discussed in other threads, it smacks of vaporware. No one has seen a prototype (that pic is a rendering), the website is thin on details and they do not respond to e-mails. I wouldn't hold my breath on this one. There are supposed to be 20 Linux cellphones on the way this year. It's almost April. Where are they? I'm hoping at least one of them is close to the specs of this device or at least offers phone, WLAN and keyboard. I'm tired of carrying my phone, PDA & MP3 player around. Give me one device to rule them all.

Edit: Humorous anecdote removed
BarryW
QUOTE(nequiem @ Mar 20 2005, 06:02 PM)
Before convergence:
Yo,  Shaniqua. What, girl? Here comes gadget boy. For real. He's like a skinny Batman. Wassup wit all that stuff hangin' on your belt clip, dawg? Is that a vacuum cleaner? A Zaurus? What's a Zaurus? You want to take me out where? You are trippin'. Get real!

After convergence:
Yo, Shaniqua. What, girl? Who's that? Is that gadget boy? Ya, girl. He's got a pimp lookin' Phone/PDA/MP3 player all-in-one now. Yo, that's tight. I didn't know what you looked like without that belt-clip. You are all that, dawg. I got a hot tub. You wanna come to my crib tonight?  wink.gif
*

The first person I see that actally talks like that I'm going to laugh at them and tell them to go back to school!
adf
Previously posted comment deleted by admin request

So... the idea quoted above is that If you hang more than one gadget on your belt, you are unattractive to women who speak poor english? Is this the general idea?

Are there an awful lot of people buying cell phones primarily to impress these women?

For that matter, do most people hang their handhelds in holsters? and their phones?
lardman
QUOTE
Barry, you should treat idiots and ebonics with the respect they deserve  biggrin.gif


Whatever the intention of this comment, I don't think it was necessary.

Back to the topic please.


Simon
BarryW
QUOTE(adf @ Mar 20 2005, 08:04 PM)
Barry, you should treat idiots and ebonics with the respect they deserve biggrin.gif
*



That was!!
kahm
QUOTE(euroclie @ Mar 20 2005, 09:36 PM)
QUOTE(lpotter @ Mar 19 2005, 08:25 PM)
I hate to inform you of this, but there isn't a phone manufacturer or operator on the planet that is going to let you have easy access to the system. Some phones don't even let you install 3rd party applications. Why? Security and legality reasons. Phones are highly regulated devices, not like PDA's.

What exactly do you mean by "let you have easy access to the system"? Do you mean access to the network stuff (SIM toolkit, GSM/GPRS settings and info, etc.) or just access to the general system (i.e. the OS part that handles the display, keyboard, sound, etc.)?

I can certainly understand why manufacturer / operators would restrict your access to the network stuff, but they do not need to care about the rest of the OS, and there are a few smartphones available on which you have an almost complete access to the system - as long as you don't try to mess with the network part, of course...
*



My take on it is that cell phone providers don't like to give you access to the OS on the phone because the more access they give you the easier it is to get data in and out of the device on your own. What the providers want is for you to only be able to get data in and out through your expensive cellular data plan - none of this IR or BT or USB data transfer nonsense! People are getting stinking rich selling background pictures and ring tones for $2 apiece for tiny, low res pics and short midi files.

Sharp sells you a productivity tool when you buy a Z. The cell phone companies are trying to sell you air time.
euroclie
QUOTE(kahm @ Mar 22 2005, 01:55 AM)
My take on it is that cell phone providers don't like to give you access to the OS on the phone because the more access they give you the easier it is to get data in and out of the device on your own. What the providers want is for you to only be able to get data in and out through your expensive cellular data plan - none of this IR or BT or USB data transfer nonsense! People are getting stinking rich selling background pictures and ring tones for $2 apiece for tiny, low res pics and short midi files.

I wholy agree with you, although I think that this applies more to mobile phones than to evolved smartphones or connected PDAs.

The owner of a "simple" mobile phone probably doesn't expect much as far as exchanging data between the phone and a desktop PC goes (contact informations, maybe pictures or videos if the phone has a builtin digicam), whereas a PDA or Smartphone user expects more syncing capabilities, if only to install third party apps...

One additional reason why they are usually reluctant to unleash the full power of BT or USB/Serial connections is that the smartphone can then be used as a wireless modem, which is definitely NOT what the carriers like if they provide some unlimited plans (like some US carrier do, as far as I could understand).
Sprint or Cingular did just that by crippling the BT DUN profile on the Treo 650, for instance.

On the other hand, carriers that don't have unlimited plans have no particular reason to prevent that use of a smartphone, quite the opposite...

QUOTE
Sharp sells you a productivity tool when you buy a Z. The cell phone companies are trying to sell you air time.

Yep. I just wish Sharp would have done a better job with the builtin apps (especially the PIM apps) as they clearly lack some basic features you find in, say, PalmOS or PPC equivalents... It's not as if there was a tremendous choice when it comes to finding a good datebook for the Zaurus, for instance. sad.gif

But then, true geeks can always install full-featured apps like the KDE PIM suite, or a debian distro, which can prove very useful at times although IMHO this completely defeats the "PDA" function of the Zaurus, as those apps are generally slooooow and cumbersome to use because not designed/optimized specifically with a PDA in mind. wink.gif

I'd really like to see more choice in Linux PDAs and smartphones, but I think that to achieve this, companies would have to improve the builtin apps, because of the lack of "plug & play" software when compared to the other platforms. I mean, being able to tweak and recompile almost any Linux application is fine for the über-geek, but definitely not for the faint of heat or newbie! blink.gif
ev1l
QUOTE(euroclie @ Mar 22 2005, 12:21 AM)
But then, true geeks can always install full-featured apps like the KDE PIM suite, or a debian distro, which can prove very useful at times although IMHO this completely defeats the "PDA" function of the Zaurus, as those apps are generally slooooow and cumbersome to use because not designed/optimized specifically with a PDA in mind. wink.gif

Eh, KDEPIM can be installed normally, it doesn't take a Unix expert to install it. And for the love of god fast-load it, it'll launch just as fast as the default apps.
euroclie
QUOTE(ev1l @ Mar 23 2005, 12:39 AM)
Eh, KDEPIM can be installed normally, it doesn't take a Unix expert to install it. And for the love of god fast-load it, it'll launch just as fast as the default apps.

Ha! I wasn't refering specifically to KDEPIM when mentioning the hacking/compiling involved to install some apps, it's indeed quite the contrary: a nicely packaged .ipk, very user friendly. wink.gif

But when it comes to using Ko/PI for instance, even if "fast-load" hides part of the overhead by moving those long seconds needed to launch the application in the boot process, it's still a very slow application by average PDA standards... When I switch to the month view, for instance, it takes 5 to 6 seconds on my 3000 for the display to stop refreshing. In the same month view, switching to next month takes approximately 2 seconds, and the same kind of delay appears when you show or hide the date picker, etc.

I don't think that Ko/PI is a bad PIM application, it's very powerful and configurable, but when I compare the time I need to, say, switch on the PDA, launch (or recall to the front) the agenda application, get to next month's view, find a day with a free slot to put an appointment with my doctor, then create the said appointment, the same sequence of actions is much longer on the Zaurus than it was on my previous PDA (PalmOS Treo 600). Granted, part of the problem comes from the fact that I'm new to the Zaurus and need to get used to its UI, but Ko/PI is definitely slower in its display (not to mention launch) than any PalmOS equivalent, or the Sharp original agenda application, and the Zaurus in general is a bit less responsive than a PalmOS unit. Nothing dramatic, of course, but such minor things tend to add up, and in the end makes for a good or bad PDA experience. wink.gif
rickh
QUOTE(euroclie @ Mar 23 2005, 09:07 AM)
...
When I switch to the month view, for instance, it takes 5 to 6 seconds on my 3000 for the display to stop refreshing. In the same month view, switching to next month takes approximately 2 seconds, and the same kind of delay appears when you show or hide the date picker, etc.

Something's wrong. What else do you have running? take a look at all your processes. If you're uncomfortable with the command line, download process manager GUI. They only time I've ever had a fast loading app take that long to switch views is when I was futzing around with getting Personal Java running om the C3000. It was eating up around 20M of memory. Otherwise it should only take a second to load a fast-loading app and switch views.

My guess is you've got some process left over from something else you were doing earlier.

R.
==

EDIT: I should of course amend this by saying that I'm referring to KOPI when I say "fast-loading" apps. I use it and love it.
zautrix
QUOTE(rickh @ Mar 23 2005, 02:42 PM)
QUOTE(euroclie @ Mar 23 2005, 09:07 AM)
...
When I switch to the month view, for instance, it takes 5 to 6 seconds on my 3000 for the display to stop refreshing. In the same month view, switching to next month takes approximately 2 seconds, and the same kind of delay appears when you show or hide the date picker, etc.

Something's wrong.


He is right. The problem was from switching from <some-view> in non fullscreen to the month view in fullscreen. There was the layout recomputed twice. It should work much faster in the next version 2.0.20 (available in some minutes) . I removed the double layout recomputing for that case.

And, by the way, KDE-Pim/Pi is already heavily optimized for the usage on a PDA.

z.
rickh
QUOTE(zautrix @ Mar 23 2005, 02:47 PM)
QUOTE(rickh @ Mar 23 2005, 02:42 PM)
QUOTE(euroclie @ Mar 23 2005, 09:07 AM)
...
When I switch to the month view, for instance, it takes 5 to 6 seconds on my 3000 for the display to stop refreshing. In the same month view, switching to next month takes approximately 2 seconds, and the same kind of delay appears when you show or hide the date picker, etc.

Something's wrong.


He is right. The problem was from switching from <some-view> in non fullscreen to the month view in fullscreen. There was the layout recomputed twice. It should work much faster in the next version 2.0.20 (available in some minutes) . I removed the double layout recomputing for that case.

And, by the way, KDE-Pim/Pi is already heavily optimized for the usage on a PDA.

z.
*


Hmm. Not really sure what's different about my setup, but I don't have that problem. I'm running 2.0.14.

R.
==
lpotter
QUOTE(B_Lizzard @ Mar 20 2005, 06:43 AM)
lpotter,I already know this, the phone security thing (For those who don't go HERE) but how come, even if phone companies don't let you hack the phone's software, and even laws are made about that, tell me, how come there are GSM cards out there that can, with the help of simple software, make any device with a CF or PC card slot a fully funcional phone? Are there no security risks there? With that simple software, a Windows Laptop could become a phone, the Zaurus with PdaXrom could be a phone, the Zaurus with OpenZaurus could be a phone, a Pocket PC could be a phone...and all without security risks, wilst the other way around would be law breaking?

Please, elaborate on this, cause we need to clear this up.
*


I don't know about the laws in your country.
lpotter
QUOTE(nequiem @ Mar 21 2005, 01:02 PM)
This is an awesome concept but as discussed in other threads, it smacks of vaporware. No one has seen a prototype (that pic is a rendering), the website is thin on details and they do not respond to e-mails. I wouldn't hold my breath on this one. There are supposed to be 20 Linux cellphones on the way this year. It's almost April. Where are they? I'm hoping at least one of them is close to the specs of this device or at least offers phone, WLAN and keyboard. I'm tired of carrying my phone, PDA & MP3 player around. Give me one device to rule them all.

Edit: Humorous anecdote removed
*


They have been shown at trade shows, they aren't all vaporware, and I don;t have any control over when or if they decide to release these things.

Creating a phone is not like just throwing the parts togther and seeing if they stick.
lpotter
QUOTE(nequiem @ Mar 21 2005, 05:47 AM)
Thanks for clearing up the smartphone legality issue, lpotter. That reveals why Linux smartphones are so few in number despite the free OS and why Sharp dropped their phone. 

*


Linux smartphones are so few in number for a number of reasons. One being that until now, there hasnt been a readily available gui. It has taken Motorola several years to get their linux phone to market.

That is not why Sharp dropped their phone.
lpotter
QUOTE(adf @ Mar 20 2005, 07:35 AM)
position is yours.  Pdaxrom works very nicely on now obsolete boxes.

So does MSDOS, doesn't mean it's going to take over the world.

QUOTE
Quite a few of the z6000 users are in fact using debian via xqt and a chroot now (and taking a performance hit to do it through all that overhead), and pdaXrom users also chroot to debain, though most of 'em seem to use ice windows or xfce (both heavier than bb).  Are you contending that these are are either stupid or non-existant?


These users are far from normal users. They amount to a very small percent of the total user base.

QUOTE
Or that they are just being mindlessy geeky rather than that they are looking for a more complete system? The fact is handhelds are getting more powerful, and more people want to really make use of them as tiny computers rather than expensive notepads.If it were 100 years ago would you be yelling "get a horse? " 


Horses are very good for what they do. They are still a relevant form of transportation. They don't cause heaps of air pollution, and their fuel is less flamable and dangerous.

QUOTE
And, should I mention that if I want a qtopia that is newer than 3 years old to run on my z, I absolutely have to abandon support of any kind? (what kind of direct support from trolltech am I
entitled to now, btw?--besides having you on the forums?)


Trolltech does not support end users in that way. Thats the device OEM's job.

QUOTE
There is much more of an open
source community built around standard, open stuff like X and gtk... hence a source of community support. extremely limited support that sticks me with a 3 year old system doesn't really excite me, or, I suspect, anyone else.  I'm not saying the QT library stuff is worthless--I like KDE on my sid box.but... isn't there a lot of X going on under kde?  If Trolltech wanted to make an open handheld interface using X and qt--a kind of light kde (with the ability to run gtk apps) I'd be fascinated.


X on a handheld is overkill, IMHO.

QUOTE
On the phone issue I agree. A tiny very light device w/ a small screen and a few pretty buttons to work the pim suite is just the thing demanded by the market, and Qtopia can serve that market very well.  The idea of a pocket computer is rather a different thing, though, and if it is to be a linux pocket computer, then it should be opensource and work on standard community based toolkits.


oh, I get it. It's not really open source if it comes from Trolltech, hey?

QUOTE
Maybe you are contending that a linux pocket computer shouldn't exist? or that there is no market for such a thing?  ZUG would be a strange place to do so...


I'm not condending that at all. It's a very small niche market. No one wants to market to a small niche. They want the big pie, grandmother/teenybooper users that hardly know how to push the 'Send' button to make a phone call.

QUOTE
as to some of your other ideas...  a brick is easy to reset to a known state too... and so is any computer whose storage can be imaged. Qtopis and/or sharp really don't have a corner on imaging.

and the comfort of "corporate support" angle is Microsoft's pitch, If I recall correctly.  It is a big reason why so many buisnesses use ms products (not that it is necessarily the best choice, just the comforting one)


This is how big businesses work. It's standard MO.

[quote]
alan.lai
SL-A300 layout
(As small/lightest as possible)

SDIO
USB host
BT
Wifi
mic w/ record button
VGA transflexive screen
No keyboard/No CF
Large internal memory
Fast processor, enough to play mpeg2 sm00thly
carbon fiber case or alloy (no plastic)
Long battery life

THIS IS MY MOST DESIREABLE PDA!
If it exists, I will buy half to a dozen, to give my relatives, good friends... etc
Price.... don't know, as soon as it's reasonable to u
nilch
This is the thing - like many of us - the market is even more so - extremenly divided on what constitutes a PDA.

The US market is still in the mode of PIM-ing as the main PDA usage - and henze the lack of interest in Keyboard based mobile tools as the Zaurus.
I for one want a PDA that is more than a traditional PDA - more of a laptop replacement -
-hence Keyboard must,
-USB must,
-bigger VGA screen must (4" was good more is better),
-faster better processort (desirable),
-good audio/video handling,
-longer battery life (must),
-more open and widely adapted toolset base (not Windows or Palm) for better availability of apps for practical purposes (can live without X).

On the other hand a Linux smartphone is a different beast .
I would love to have a good phone with a nice GUI and intuitive PIM handling (many phones have such bad interface that its a regular pain trying to make calls), maybe a small Camera phone (not crazy about it),
and most importantly
Toolset compatibility with the PDA version would be great - so that PDA apps can be thinned down to fit on the phone with lesser clutter and simpler interface - that way increasing the integration between Phone and laptop PDA (I certainly dont want a all in one device) and vice-versa - get more detailed apps or a sync base app on the PDA to store the master data set while a little part resides on the phone.
(same way that a PDA now interacts with the computer, I want my phone interacting with my PDA) .

I would support Trolltech in this regard hoping that Qtopia Phone will have some sort of integration with Qtopia PDA in a seamless way. I would certainly then carry a Qtopia based handheld (PDA in our parlance) and a Qtopia based phone seperately.

No other manufacturer seems to have such a combination - seperate PDA and phone device (not smartphone which tries to takeover a handheld role) with common layer of toolsets or GUI base it seems.
kahm
QUOTE(zautrix @ Mar 23 2005, 02:47 PM)
He is right. The problem was from switching from <some-view> in non fullscreen to the month view in fullscreen. There was the layout recomputed twice. It should work much faster in the next version 2.0.20 (available in some minutes) . I removed the double layout recomputing for that case.

And, by the way, KDE-Pim/Pi is already heavily optimized for the usage on a PDA.

z.
*


Woohoo! No more double refresh! That'll make make the software faster *and* more professional looking smile.gif
ev1l
QUOTE(lpotter @ Mar 23 2005, 10:59 AM)
I'm not condending that at all. It's a very small niche market. No one wants to market to a small niche. They want the big pie, grandmother/teenybooper users that hardly know how to push the 'Send' button to make a phone call.

No one wants to make/sell, or god forbid, buy Sidekicks and Treo's?
I agree with most of your comments, but that's just a bag of horse (totally relevant to the transportation industry, too wink.gif ) crap. The market is segmented, and each segment coul be served properly with an adapted software suite on top of linux. The fact that it doesn't exist doesn't make it any less true.

My personal opinion of what a PDA should be is an Archos with a keyboard, a GSM/GPRS radio, and bluetooth (so you don't have to hold that damn thing next to your head) laugh.gif but I tend to be demanding.

If someone made a Linux PDA that's functionally equivalent to a Treo, I would have bought that, but there isn't.
tg
QUOTE(ev1l @ Mar 23 2005, 06:37 PM)
QUOTE(lpotter @ Mar 23 2005, 10:59 AM)
I'm not condending that at all. It's a very small niche market. No one wants to market to a small niche. They want the big pie, grandmother/teenybooper users that hardly know how to push the 'Send' button to make a phone call.

No one wants to make/sell, or god forbid, buy Sidekicks and Treo's?
I agree with most of your comments, but that's just a bag of horse (totally relevant to the transportation industry, too wink.gif ) crap. The market is segmented, and each segment coul be served properly with an adapted software suite on top of linux. The fact that it doesn't exist doesn't make it any less true.

My personal opinion of what a PDA should be is an Archos with a keyboard, a GSM/GPRS radio, and bluetooth (so you don't have to hold that damn thing next to your head) laugh.gif but I tend to be demanding.

If someone made a Linux PDA that's functionally equivalent to a Treo, I would have bought that, but there isn't.
*



I mostly agree with you. I have a feeling that most people at least on these forums are looking for a high end device that more or less replaces laptop as a primary usage - the fact that it may also do more traditional functions (ie PIM or phone) is a plus but this is not why most of us here buy these devices. I for example don't really care whether or not my phone runs linux. But I will not buy a PDA that does not run linux or some other type of unix - it's that simple. And lpotter is wrong in assuming that if the device does not "take over the world" or only serves a niche it does not make sense to make it - look how long Apple has been around and how successful they have been with their niche market - funny thing is now Apples seems to be breaking into the mainstream and one of the main reasons is that they got geeks all excited about unix os under a great gui (ok I'll agree that ipod and ilife do not hurt either but I would have never looked at Apple until OsX came out and I have many friends who feel the same way - as much as we all got to like ilife and other apple stuff the fact that I can open bash window is the real reason I converted to mac).
nilch
I dont know if most people really want a "convergent" device - a PDA and phone combined together.

Now I dont know what formulates any basis - but research and statistics show that Convergent devices are not that popular.

If you want a laptop replacement, you want a laptop replacement, do you also want your laptop to make calls (bluetooth or no bluetooth).
Just beacuse it can be done, doesnt mean most people want to do it that way. A simpler phones device is more attarctive (even if you hold it next to your head) rather then use a laptop to make calls with a bluetooth earpiece.

Damn, my Jabra bluetooth thingy has been lying gathering dsut. If I charge my phone once every 2 days, I got to charge the Jabra thing every day - thats too much of a hassle.

I would want a Linux smartphone too - but surely I want the smartphone to have intelligent PIM-ing functions and a little more - not to be a laptop replacement and do Telnet and VNC and tweak my HTTPD server too. while making a phone call.
Sorry, but no, thank you. cool.gif
JohnKiniston
QUOTE(ev1l @ Mar 23 2005, 04:37 PM)
QUOTE(lpotter @ Mar 23 2005, 10:59 AM)
I'm not condending that at all. It's a very small niche market. No one wants to market to a small niche. They want the big pie, grandmother/teenybooper users that hardly know how to push the 'Send' button to make a phone call.

No one wants to make/sell, or god forbid, buy Sidekicks and Treo's?
I agree with most of your comments, but that's just a bag of horse (totally relevant to the transportation industry, too wink.gif ) crap. The market is segmented, and each segment coul be served properly with an adapted software suite on top of linux. The fact that it doesn't exist doesn't make it any less true.

My personal opinion of what a PDA should be is an Archos with a keyboard, a GSM/GPRS radio, and bluetooth (so you don't have to hold that damn thing next to your head) laugh.gif but I tend to be demanding.

If someone made a Linux PDA that's functionally equivalent to a Treo, I would have bought that, but there isn't.
*



I miss my sidekick sad.gif I went through three of them before I was forced to change carriers.

It was nearly a perfect mix of phone and PDA for me, Decent IM, Email, Web browsing and even ssh.

What I want is another mobile communications platform, Something that'll keep me in touch when I'm not at a real computer.

Too bad the sidekick never had real third party development support due to greed on the part of T-mobile and Danger, a linux/qtopia based device would solve that problem and open up the options for a lot of programs.

Wifi + Bluetooth + GSM? That'd rock hard. IR and USB would be icing on the cake, You could interface the device with almost anything.

Wouldnt it be cool to have something like zroadmap on your cellphone connected to your GPS via bluetooth and sending updates on your position via APRS?

I guess It may be possible to do this now with my 5500, a bluetooth card, a phone with bluetooth networking and a GPS attached to a serial to bluetooth deal.
ev1l
QUOTE(JohnKiniston @ Mar 23 2005, 07:59 PM)
I guess It may be possible to do this now with my 5500, a bluetooth card, a phone with bluetooth networking and a GPS attached to a serial to bluetooth deal.
*

You want to volunteer to write the software stack? Right now I'd be happy if my Z integrated decently with just my phone, just for the phone functions (callin, SMS) over Bluetooth.
tovarish
QUOTE(ev1l @ Mar 24 2005, 05:17 AM)
QUOTE(JohnKiniston @ Mar 23 2005, 07:59 PM)
I guess It may be possible to do this now with my 5500, a bluetooth card, a phone with bluetooth networking and a GPS attached to a serial to bluetooth deal.
*

You want to volunteer to write the software stack? Right now I'd be happy if my Z integrated decently with just my phone, just for the phone functions (callin, SMS) over Bluetooth.
*




actually I have compiled the latest gammu for the zaurus and i can make calls, sms, phonebook management through bluetooth and my t68i. All is needed is a nice qte frontend to gammu, something like FMA (float's mobile agent). FMA is opensource so someone with qt programming skills could attempt it maybe.

tovarish
silvio
For me a Zaurus CXXX is the best solution (especially if someone will produce 30Gb CF microdrives in future smile.gif ) - the size of the LCD could be a bit larger.

But I think there should be much more lower priced Linux PDAs available because they will enlarge the market for Linux PDAs.

A larger market is leading to more high level software and more hardware adds and drivers will be available.

regards,
Silvio
Mickeyl
Indeed. If those damn phones were finally available (hurry up, folks, hurry up, I'm waiting...), there would surely be a lot of interest in 3rd party software which in turn makes more software available for similar platforms like the Zaurus.

And who knows... perhaps some nice apps on the phone generate more interest to larger devices as well ("This is a cool application - I want to run that also on 640x480, not on my tiny phone. Where's the hardware").

I could be just dreaming here, though...
mikew
How about a LINUX PDA & phone running Qt with a decent keyboard, someone claims to be developing one at http://www.road-gmbh.de/produkte/index_01.html
Mickeyl
It's very nice, but please remain seated when you ask for the price...
guylhem
Never mind the price. I'll be happy to pay 1500 Eur/$2000 if this is not vapourware to get at least an all in one solution. I want it all (gsm, bluetooth, wifi, mini hardisk, 128 Mb of ram at least, a touch-typing capable keyboard, and a good battery life) and I'm ready to pay the price if it ever comes to the market. I'm dead serious - when I purchased a Vaio C1VE I paid much more for no wifi, no bluetooth, no gsm and an unreadable screen in sunlight)

That'd be a business tool much easier to use that what I have now, and I'm quite sure I'd sell that to clients currently consulting me for similar solutions.

The only other solution ATM is to wire a gprs module to my 6000W serial port, and wire the audio out to a bluetooth chip. At least a full week of work - bad deal (cause I'll only make one), even if I'm seriously considering it after getting in touch with the road-gmbh company and getting no reply at all :-(
mikew
I would also be willing to pay that kind of money as a business device, suspect a significant number of other business users would also be willing.

Keyboard looks as good as the Psion 5mx in fact the whole device looks like an updated Psion 5mx with built in phone.

Office apps are only viewers perhaps TextMaker or Hancom apps could be ported over.

Mikew
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