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weasel123
I have noticed that the sl c3000 uses kernel 2.4.20 and the sources are available on sharps site.
I would like to ask wether it is possible to use the new kernel (2.4.20) with future OE releases, than the old 2.4.18 rmk one.

IMHO the only reason we are using the 2.4.18 is because of the binary only sd driver from sharp. We should ditch the SD thing (its a propriotory closed format) which has been hindering us from moving to a newer kernel for a long time. We should instead write/use a existing MMC driver and forget about the whole SD thing.

There is a lot of hype about OZ moving to the 2.6 kernels, well that will anyway break the SD compatibility as there is no SD driver for the 2.6 yet, so in the meantime till a 2.6 zaurus kernel comes out I suggest that we move ahead with newer 2.4 releases than that 2.4.18 release.
Mickeyl
2.4.20-embedix is a piece of crap. It doesn't compile for anything else than the C3000 target right now. There's no way we spend anymore seconds with this retarded code than absolutely necessary. Kernel 2.6 for C7x0 is 95% finished. We will ship it in OpenZaurus 3.5.3.

For the 5000 and the 5500, it doesn't look that good because of the SD thing. Then again, 2.4.20 doesn't contain collie code, so we wouldn't gain anything.
allanjard
Ah pants - and I just went and bought a new SD card. I could decide on SD or MMC since they were the same price... doh

This slap on head... sad.gif

Looking forward to seeing the 2.6.x kernels though!
mussi
And what about SD support for the 6000 and the clamshell Zaurii in that case? I'd hate not to be able to use that 'slower' (but perfectly usable) storage.
Joshp
QUOTE(Mickeyl @ Mar 29 2005, 03:00 AM)
2.4.20-embedix is a piece of crap. It doesn't compile for anything else than the C3000 target right now. There's no way we spend anymore seconds with this retarded code than absolutely necessary. Kernel 2.6 for C7x0 is 95% finished. We will ship it in OpenZaurus 3.5.3.

For the 5000 and the 5500, it doesn't look that good because of the SD thing. Then again, 2.4.20 doesn't contain collie code, so we wouldn't gain anything.
*


Where there be a 2.6 kernel for the sl-6000?

JP
Bedman
Hey,

i don't know if i'm the right person to say. But there is development for the 2.6 kernel of the SL-6000 device.
For more information look at the openzaurus-mailinglist:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=11924

Ciao Bedman
sashz
QUOTE(Mickeyl @ Mar 29 2005, 01:00 AM)
2.4.20-embedix is a piece of crap. It doesn't compile for anything else than the C3000 target right now. There's no way we spend anymore seconds with this retarded code than absolutely necessary. Kernel 2.6 for C7x0 is 95% finished. We will ship it in OpenZaurus 3.5.3.

For the 5000 and the 5500, it doesn't look that good because of the SD thing. Then again, 2.4.20 doesn't contain collie code, so we wouldn't gain anything.
*


well, this kernel works fine with pdaXrom on SL-C7x0/860 smile.gif just need fix problem with MMC driver
Mickeyl
So you patched it to behave? Did you notice any differences?
sashz
QUOTE(Mickeyl @ Mar 30 2005, 01:20 AM)
So you patched it to behave? Did you notice any differences?
*


There was little problem with PXA SSP initialization and kernel linking, i fixed it and added pdaXrom specific and part of japan patches - devfs support, optimized w100 modes, etc

unzip attachment, there bzip2ed archive with patches, because forum unlike attach bzip2 file
weasel123
QUOTE(Mickeyl @ Mar 29 2005, 01:00 AM)
Kernel 2.6 for C7x0 is 95% finished. We will ship it in OpenZaurus 3.5.3.

For the 5000 and the 5500, it doesn't look that good because of the SD thing. Then again, 2.4.20 doesn't contain collie code, so we wouldn't gain anything.
*


IMHO why dont you forget about the SD support for collie with regard to the 2.6 kernels altogether and just use a genereic mmc driver for collie. I think that the main reason kernel developement fir collie has been retarded is because of the absurd binary only sd module.

Its because of the binary sd module that we are still stuck with the ancient kernel 2.4.18 rmk-pxa7 etc. compiled using the 2.95 compiler too.

I think its high time we (OZ) like the guys at familiar just forget about supporting SD( propriotory format) and support mmc instead and move ahead. Its s small sacrifice to pay for the added benefits of a newer kernel.
lpotter
[quote=weasel123,Apr 4 2005, 04:16 AM]
[quote=Mickeyl,Mar 29 2005, 01:00 AM]Kernel 2.6 for C7x0 is 95% finished. We will ship it in OpenZaurus 3.5.3.

I think its high time we (OZ) like the guys at familiar just forget about supporting SD( propriotory format) and support mmc instead and move ahead. Its s small sacrifice to pay for the added benefits of a newer kernel.
*

[/quote]

I don't think the benefits of any new kernel outweighs having a properly working sd slot.
Users want a device that works, they don't really care about which kernel it uses.
adf
I'm not sure I understand the issue clearly.

That the new 2.6 won't support Sd is clear enough. ...

It will, however support mmc cards?

is there a serious performance difference? (sd is already slow enough)

My sd casn easily enough be replaced with an mmc, if needed.
(mmc cards are as low as us $68 at price watch)

I agree with potter that a working system should be a pretty high priority--- right now, fior example, I use sharprom on my 6k because it works.

If, though, mmc does work and oz also works well on my 6k, then i would be willing to buy an mmc and replace my sd--and call it good.

of course my last jaunt to the 2.6kernel stuff at sourceforge only showed work on the 5500, the 5600 and the 7&8 series clamshells....
i hope this doesn't bode ill for 6k support...
2 cents from an end user...
pframpton
The SD slot on an SL5x00 doesn't support any of the SD features anyway (the Secure part), would an MMC driver read an SD card - I would have thought it would. As for speed, surely that's hardware based. Is the actual problem that you can't use a generic MMC driver with the Sharp SD reader chip?

Also, according to the website with info on 5x00 kernels, there are other things not working too. http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~lenz/zaurus/

Maybe someone should try building a kernel with MMC support and do some tests to see what speed/perforamnc you actual get, if it does work.
Mickeyl
QUOTE
Is the actual problem that you can't use a generic MMC driver with the Sharp SD reader chip?


Bingo. The chipset that drives the SD/MMC slot has zero publically available documentation. That means no SD/MMC for 5500 and 5000d until Sharp releases documentation and/or the driver source code - both which is very unlikely to happen.

Note that this is _no_ problem on all other models since they use standard chipsets.
adf
then would this mean the continuation of the 2.4 kernel (and separate crosscompiler) for the 5500 while the other models move to a 2.6 based better integrated OE build system?
Mickeyl
It means that the 2.4 kernel for collie will stagnate, since no one is doing any work on that. It also means that 2.6 for collie will sooner or later be available and then you can choose whether to stick with 2.4 and SD or with 2.6 without SD.
JohnKiniston
I cant really see the use for a kernel without SD support on my 5500, Being stuck with only the rom or a ramdisk for storage when using WIFI or Bluetooth wouldnt be any fun.

Maybe its time for me to Upgrade to a newer Zaurus.
lardman
QUOTE
Being stuck with only the rom or a ramdisk for storage when using WIFI or Bluetooth wouldnt be any fun.


MMC?

Si
Mickeyl
To clarify: No SD on collie means also no MMC. It's the hardware that we can't access, not the protocol.
allanjard
Is there someone at Sharp that we can send e-mails to to ask them to release the information about collie's mmc/sd chip set? Why won't they release it - does anyone know?

A
Mickeyl
There are no contacts to Sharp Japan. In the past, they didn't release the code because of the SD Consortium license not allowing that. Since then, those legal issues have been sorted out (ironically, mostly thanks to Microsoft).

So - the only hindering issue for releaseing the SD and CameraCard source code is...

*** drumroll ***

they don't need to.

Sharp never released a single bit more data than they needed to. I don't expect this to change.
weasel123
QUOTE(Mickeyl @ Apr 4 2005, 01:15 AM)
To clarify: No SD on collie means also no MMC. It's the hardware that we can't access, not the protocol.
*


Surely it cant be using such a non standard chipset, there is bound to be some other device which usesthe same chipset to which a driver has already been written?
Mickeyl
?

Sharp is a large company, they design and produce custom chips for their own needs.
weasel123
QUOTE(Mickeyl @ Apr 4 2005, 01:14 PM)
?

Sharp is a large company, they design and produce custom chips for their own needs.
*


Yes , it appears that the cipset is a propriotory sharp chip, my above statement was made because i thought that maybe the chipset could have been done by some other manufacturer and that the chip would have been used for some other hardware and that a driver maybe available for it But i now see that we most probably will be stuck with the 2.4.18 rmk thing after all sad.gif As it is unlikely that anyone will reverse engineer it either.
allanjard
Time to start saving for a new Zaurus I guess...
jfm3
QUOTE(allanjard @ Apr 5 2005, 12:25 AM)
Time to start saving for a new Zaurus I guess...
*


Don't throw good money after bad. smile.gif

Is the old driver a kernel module? Can we wrap it with code that will allow it to work with 2.6? It would be an ugly hack to be sure, but better than nothing. These 5x00s really are useless without the extra SD storage.
lardman
QUOTE
Can we wrap it with code that will allow it to work with 2.6?


http://www.ussg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/ker...311.0/0763.html

Not hopeful. That said, I don't know enough about it to make a judgement (but I'm sure I've read some posts about this on this forum before now).


Si
nilch
Ok, here a question from an absolute user view perspective ....

All this talk about 2.4 vs 2.6 kernel (and the aoompanying SD access problems) has gotten me confused.

What are the advantages (tangible) of using a newer Kernel 2.6 over the older ones ?
What new features do the Zaurus users get - vis-vis extra functional applications, additional protocols, new features, speed, performance etc ?

If there is no such benefits (apart from the excitement of a brand new cutting edge kernel) , I dont see why a user would really care - particularly if I had to sacrifice the SD card slot totally.

Just want to see the light
jfm3
QUOTE(nilch @ Apr 6 2005, 07:40 AM)
What are the advantages (tangible) of using a newer Kernel 2.6 over the older ones ?
What new features do the Zaurus users get - vis-vis extra functional applications, additional protocols, new features, speed, performance etc ?
*


PROS:

Faster kernel performance, smaller context switching overhead, better real-time response, better scheduler, more scheduler features.

More perhipheral device support. fewer bugs in the periperals supported by 2.4, better CF bus utilization.

More modularization. Smaller kernel footprint -- crucial for "embedded" applications.

Fewer bugs. Fewer security holes.

Better kernel interfaces for applications (ALSA, VFS, etc.).

Crucial file system features.

CONS:

Does not make minesweeper any more enjoyable.
nilch
QUOTE(jfm3 @ Apr 6 2005, 01:08 PM)
QUOTE(nilch @ Apr 6 2005, 07:40 AM)
What are the advantages (tangible) of using a newer Kernel 2.6 over the older ones ?
What new features do the Zaurus users get - vis-vis extra functional applications, additional protocols, new features, speed, performance etc ?
*


PROS:

More perhipheral device support. fewer bugs in the periperals supported by 2.4, better CF bus utilization.


By more peripheral support how does that translate for the Zaurus ?
Maybe for the USB host machines I can plug in USB Cameras, DVD Drives, USB Coffeemaker etc ? What about non-USB devices - theres just SD which anyways is not being supported in the new kernel, and CF devices which I understand require drivers - does that come with the Kernel ?

QUOTE(jfm3 @ Apr 6 2005, 01:08 PM)
More modularization. Smaller kernel footprint -- crucial for "embedded" applications.


Will it make my Zaurus boot faster and be more responsive - I like that.

QUOTE(jfm3 @ Apr 6 2005, 01:08 PM)
Fewer bugs.  Fewer security holes.


Not that I cared about security holes in my Zaurus or the root user issue anyways.
What existing bugs will be resolved ?

QUOTE(jfm3 @ Apr 6 2005, 01:08 PM)
Crucial file system features.


Does that mean new file systems (I think we already had that with various flavours of the ROM) or just better features - like what ?

Dont get the impression I am dissing the new Kernel thing - just want to get to know specifics - related to the Zaurus - not general Kernel 2.6 improvements - most of which are topical to server and desktop systems.

QUOTE(jfm3 @ Apr 6 2005, 01:08 PM)
CONS:

Does not make minesweeper any more enjoyable.
*


So which experince of a general Zaurus PDA user is more enjoyable ?
I would think if it provided newer bluetooth support and better profiles, better video or audio support features and all that - which translates to some differenrce in trhe user experience - than that is substantial.

Again its all I am questioning from the user point of view - not the geeky "use- bleeding-edge-even-numbered-kernel-release-versions-get-thrill-and-gratification" point of view.
adf
Now that 3.5.3 is here (I am mirroring it as I write) and it seems pretty conclusive that kernel 2.6 is "THE WAY" can anyone give an idea when (or even if ) 2.6 will be available on the 6000?
dirk
QUOTE
can anyone give an idea when (or even if ) 2.6 will be available on the 6000?

2.6 for the sl-6000 is in a early stage. Only a few drivers are ready:

- Keyboard
- Nand
- Display
- Backlight
- PCMCIA
- IRDA
- SD/MMC
- USB client

Things which needs to be ported:

- AC97 (Sound / Touchscreen)
- USB -Host (WLAN)
- Charging stuff
- Bluetooth
- Expansion jacket
- Some issues with suspend / resume

So this kernel isn't really usable at this time. All these patches are available in openembedded.

Cheers,
Dirk
adf
QUOTE(dirk @ Apr 13 2005, 07:57 PM)
QUOTE
can anyone give an idea when (or even if ) 2.6 will be available on the 6000?

2.6 for the sl-6000 is in a early stage. Only a few drivers are ready:

- Keyboard
- Nand
- Display
- Backlight
- PCMCIA
- IRDA
- SD/MMC
- USB client

Things which needs to be ported:

- AC97 (Sound / Touchscreen)
- USB -Host (WLAN)
- Charging stuff
- Bluetooth
- Expansion jacket
- Some issues with suspend / resume

So this kernel isn't really usable at this time. All these patches are available in openembedded.

Cheers,
Dirk
*


Nice to hear that it is being done, though. Thanks.
GenericAnimeBoy
QUOTE(Mickeyl @ Apr 4 2005, 11:48 AM)
There are no contacts to Sharp Japan. In the past, they didn't release the code because of the SD Consortium license not allowing that. Since then, those legal issues have been sorted out (ironically, mostly thanks to Microsoft).

So - the only hindering issue for releaseing the SD and CameraCard source code is...

*** drumroll ***

they don't need to.

Sharp never released a single bit more data than they needed to. I don't expect this to change.
*


Observation: Has somebody asked Sharp for it yet?
Mickeyl
More than once. Feel free to contact them again and pester them - the more people request that, the better.
albertr
QUOTE(Mickeyl @ Apr 3 2005, 07:02 PM)
It means that the 2.4 kernel for collie will stagnate, since no one is doing any work on that. It also means that 2.6 for collie will sooner or later be available and then you can choose whether to stick with 2.4 and SD or with 2.6 without SD.
*


There was a guy (or gal) who posted on this forum awhile back that (s)he disassembled and then reverse-engineered sharp's sd_mmc driver for Collie. (S)he also claimed that (s)he rewrote most of the code in C and change a few things along the way to make in faster. I don't know the name of the person, but you can try to find his/her old posts on this board. Here's a link to compiled driver developed by this person:
driver .
-albertr
azurensis
QUOTE(albertr @ Apr 21 2005, 11:25 AM)
QUOTE(Mickeyl @ Apr 3 2005, 07:02 PM)
It means that the 2.4 kernel for collie will stagnate, since no one is doing any work on that. It also means that 2.6 for collie will sooner or later be available and then you can choose whether to stick with 2.4 and SD or with 2.6 without SD.
*


There was a guy (or gal) who posted on this forum awhile back that (s)he disassembled and then reverse-engineered sharp's sd_mmc driver for Collie. (S)he also claimed that (s)he rewrote most of the code in C and change a few things along the way to make in faster. I don't know the name of the person, but you can try to find his/her old posts on this board. Here's a link to compiled driver developed by this person:
driver .
-albertr
*



FYI, this is being worked on right now


"3. SD Support

Ian Molton seems to have added SD support to handhelds.org's kernel. I'm
still trying to contact him to discuss this but the following patch enables
SD cards to work for me:
http://www.rpsys.net/openzaurus/2.6.11-rc1/mmc_sd-r1.patch

Was there a reason why SD support wasn't included in the original driver?
Would something like this patch be accepted into the kernel (I realise it
has some rough edges). I'd probably remove the attempt at 4 bit support
until a mainstream driver supported that..."
Mickeyl
Guys, _please_ don't mix Collie and the rest of the world.

Once again... SD/MMC for all models except Collie is no problem and already there. For Collie, it will probably never be there since it uses proprietary custom chip interface for which no driver nor specs exist.
Jinidog
What about poodle?
Is there a working 2.6 kernel for poodle or is there a good chance that there will be one?
Greg2
QUOTE(Jinidog @ Apr 27 2005, 03:55 PM)
What about poodle?
Is there a working 2.6 kernel for poodle or is there a good chance that there will be one?

Here's a bad picture (no frontlight yet) of an April 6th 2005 build booted up on my poodle and a link to where it's at in development:
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~lenz/zaurus/

Greg
Jinidog
Okay,

seems as if I'll have to wait for some time, until that is useable.
(or I learn kernel-hacking, it's a good reason to start smile.gif )
BeKind
Well, i've got a 5500 and I want to use an SD for storage. (I use the other slot for Wifi.)

So it seems I pretty much have to pick a version and freeze there before the new versions make the SD unusable.

3.5.2 was pretty good, my main complaint was advancedfm was buggy. I like the new version,

*is it possible to use the newer advancedfm with 3.5.2?

The two main things I don't like about 3.5.3 are that holding down the right arrow suspends, and that the programs using sharp-compat have messed up dialog boxes now.

*Will it take a new release of OZ to fix those 2 problems? Will I have to give up SD to see those fixed?

Thanks in advance for answering these questions.
Mickeyl
I'm afraid I have to report that the OZ team is overloaded and there are no people looking into the two issues, so it probably won't get fixed until someone else starts to debug that.
berte74
QUOTE(adf @ Apr 3 2005, 02:52 PM)
then would this mean the continuation of the 2.4 kernel (and separate crosscompiler) for the 5500 while the other models move to a 2.6 based better integrated OE build system?
*

I have some poodles running Opie 1.1.7 & kernel 2.4.18
Does anyone know where I can get the install/flash files for these older versions??? I need to have them to revert to incase our stuff has issues with the new kernel.

Thanks in advance.
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