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mussi
What do you think about this piece of hardware?



To me it looks pretty nice, although I could do away with the keyboard and have a bigger screen instead. Could this be a killer for bigger Zaurii?
dz
? I don't see an image.
adf
No pic, no link. I am curious , though.

Personally, I'm keeping an eye on the tiqit.
boosalis
Don't hold your breath with tiqit. They've been at it so long, the news on their web site is from 2003.

Toms Hardware mentioned a device called ruby - a mini pc the size of a PDA
ruby
http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050416_122355.html


----------------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I'm keeping an eye on the tiqit.
*

[/quote]
kahm
I'm mentally imaging something like the OQO, which is one of the ultra-portables most often trotted out as an X86 Zaurus replacement.

Unfortunately it's too hot, twice as expensive, and has less than half the battery life (3hrs).
offroadgeek
here's the link, and the image:

http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news_9485.html

Click to view attachment
adf
Yeah.. I know the tiqit has been dragging. there have been recent signs of life that got my hopes up.

Looks like a nice device. I'm curious about the "no touchscreen" bit. If the input stuff is up to par, could be a good thing..keep cost down, etc. If not..yipe.

Will it run linux?

The muramasa c50 looked very cool. I hope it too doesn't turn out to be a $2,000 gadget. -like oqo and the yet-to actually arrive flipstart. I love that stuff... but I would hesitate to carry that much cash on a daily basis, let alone something that's pretty fragile with that value.

Thanks for posting the link
kahm
QUOTE(offroadgeek @ Apr 25 2005, 01:32 AM)


Very cute.

The blurb said it had Wacom, XP Tablet edition, and no touchscreen, which seems like someone is confused.

The problem with small form-factor X86 is lack of power compared to desktops. Either they'll be powerful with short battery life, or the software will be dog slow. The Z gets away with what it does simply because the apps are somewhat scaled down - designed for the small screen and processor. I suspect that what will happen is that these X86 handhelds will end up being both slow AND have bad battery tongue.gif

The Ruby loses out because it doesn't seem to be small enough, either. The thing looks huge there...
BarryW
I think they mean not pressure sensitive, like the first compaq tablet. Looks cool though, was looking at the OQO as well. There have been some linux testing on it at least. As for carrying high dollar equipment, I carry over $2000 worth of stuff on me daily.
akpoff
QUOTE(offroadgeek @ Apr 24 2005, 05:32 PM)


And I thought my SL-6000 was big and my Newton 2100 positively the biggest handheld ever. I stand corrected.

For me the make/break threshold is squarely situated at the point whether you can reasonably expect to carry the device on your belt. Forget PDA cases. That thing's going to require a holster. On the upside, though, living in Texas there's a good chance no one would say anything if I wore a tooled leather belt and holster with a lanyard securing it to my leg for quick-draw computing. smile.gif
boosalis
Okay since you guys are talking about whats big, here is a link to the daddy of them all, it is the new DIAD device the UPS drivers will start to carry. This is a WinCE device made by symbols, triband modem, 80211, Bluetooth, phone modem. 128 megs ram, built in GPS receiver. 3200 mAmp battery, with all of that plus being practically bomb proof it has an excuse to be big. Might be something to impress your dates with.

Take a look:
DIAD IV

http://www.truckinginfo.com/news/news-deta...p?news_id=53657

The old units, the DIAD III bult by Motorolla I believe were around $3,000 no telling how much the DIAD IV will go for I bet it could run Linux as it is an XSCALE 400

(Why I was at a trucking site is almost a mystery to me)
boosalis
DIAD IV picture attached, hope it shows up here
adf
LMAO. a pda for the terminator.
I want one.
BarryW
Kinda cool, I want one of those ring scanners. Would make filling out work orders sooo much faster!
Miami_Bob
QUOTE(mussi @ Apr 24 2005, 06:15 PM)
What do you think about this piece of hardware?

To me it looks pretty nice, although I could do away with the keyboard and have a bigger screen instead. Could this be a killer for bigger Zaurii?
*


Not for me. WAY too big. If it can't fit in my pants pockets, I can't use it. And, since I have major left hand & arm tremor, a usable keyboard is an essential must have.

My machine has got to be as portable as my glasses, wallet & keys. ABle to go everywhere, anytime 24/7/365.
boosalis
I think one problem PDA's fail to address is that they try to target two audiences those that want portability and a design that fits in a user's pocket, and those that want functionality and a design to be used by professionals in the field.

The Sharp 6000 tried to be a professional PDA but I think its small form factor made it impossible (that and Sharp has no clue).

I mean a company like UPS which has already gone through 4 iterations of this device and having it deployed by tens of thousands of drivers, while having spent twenty million dollars implimenting this new DIAD IV obviously had a reason and huristic data to back up the size of its design.

There are lots of professional vertical markets for a device like this DIAD IV, Everything from a plumber doing an estimate and processing a bill on site to military command, control and communicate. Linux would be a perfect fit for these type of professional PDA markets, more suited then Windows CE. Further more a company can sell such a device as a business tool whose customers will pay more for a premium product just as they do with a Panasonic Tough Book, or a Symbols Handheld. Why every company want to sell a consumer PDA and make a dollar twenty five on every unit sold while ignoring this lucrative market is beyond me.

Perhaps I speak with a differnt view then most visitors of this web site, as I am interested in developing for the Zaurus in a business sense, and don't really see the Zaurus as a consumer device. The Zaurus is is a great toy and PDA, but I need something to host my software applications, and the platform needs to fit the user's world rather then have the user having to accomindate to the PDA.
speculatrix
QUOTE(boosalis @ Apr 24 2005, 11:40 PM)
Toms Hardware mentioned a device called ruby - a mini pc the size of a PDA
ruby
http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050416_122355.html


that's HUGE and HEAVY. I mean the 6000 wasn't tiny, and at half a kilo, your arm would be falling off before the battery died.

I guess, really, what people want is a modular computer, which can be stripped down to a microdrive to just have the data, a shell as a PDA, a bigger shell as an ultra-portable laptop, a large laptop for power users, and a full tower PC. You can kind of get this using a C3000, run samba over bluetooth for file sharing with laptops, and wlan or usbnet with samba to desktop for speed.

Paul
ThirtyOne
Just to elaborate on the modular idea, with an X-based ROM, the Z is incredibly powerful in this regard.

I have an old PC I paid $30 for and put Damn Small Linux on.

I lay my Z (with Wi-Fi) on the table next to it, SSH into the Z, and I can run all my Z applications from this PC. In a workplace that is Z-Friendly, I don't see why someone couldn't use a 3000 as their primary computer, with just a simple PC X-Server at their desk..
wavetossed
This is more like the kind of PC that would compete with Zaurus.

http://www.flybook.biz/?section=home&lang=en

For one thing, it can run Linux which means that any application you can run on the Zaurus can run on the flybook, assuming that the source code is available so that it can be recompiled for x86. It will be interesting to see if people start coming out with ARM-based systems similar to flybook because that would mean binary compatibility with all the Linux PDAs.

Here is how to run Linux on the flybook: http://gentoo-wiki.com/HARDWARE_Dialogue_Flybook

The immage that I chose doesn't show the keyboard because it has been folded back, just like on a Zaurus. But it does show the relative size of the flybook.
kahm
The flybook is kind of neat, being the smallest tablet-convertible that I've seen. It isn't that small, though. At 235mmx155mm it is bigger than both my Librettos (100ct and 50m, which has a touchscreen) and wider but not as deep as my Toughbook m34 (which also has a touch screen).

Many of the newer Japanese models trounce it for size. Sony has lots of laptops with better processors that are smaller. In my search for the ultimate portable computing device, I probably lost about 5 pounds in drool wandering through the used section at the Sofmap stores in Japan. Hundreds of feet of shelving of the smallest laptops you've ever seen sad.gif

And according to that Wiki you linked you can only use the touchscreen if you boot to windows first to initialize it, then warm-boot to linux.
boosalis
Okay heres another killer PDA, one that is less supersized then the UPS device . Surprizingly this comes not from Japan but the UK or Canada, depending on where Intrinisic's head quarters is.

Look at these features:
PXA270 processor
Intel 2700G graphics processor with 32 MB
128MB SDRAM, 64 MB Flash
4" VGA
USB OTG 10BaseT Ethernet RS232, BlueTooth, IR
Audio: stereo headphone/headset jack speaker, mono microphone
Exapnsion slots: CF,MMC SD optional
4 hot keys, thumbwheel and navigation pad
Telephony - optional support for triband modem
VGA out

This is a reference platform which support Windows CE and Pcoket PC, but that more OS are on the way (lets hope one being Linux !!!)

Here's the url
Intrinsyc 2700
And here is a picture:
kahm
QUOTE(boosalis @ Apr 26 2005, 04:11 PM)
Okay heres another killer PDA, one that is less supersized then the UPS device . Surprizingly this comes not from Japan but the UK or Canada, depending on where Intrinisic's head quarters is. 

Look at these features:
PXA270 processor
Intel 2700G graphics processor with 32 MB
128MB SDRAM, 64 MB Flash
4" VGA
USB OTG 10BaseT Ethernet RS232, BlueTooth, IR
Audio: stereo headphone/headset jack speaker, mono microphone
Exapnsion slots: CF,MMC SD optional
4 hot keys, thumbwheel and navigation pad
Telephony - optional support for triband modem
VGA out

This is a reference platform which support Windows CE and Pcoket PC, but that more OS are on the way (lets hope one being Linux !!!)

*


Very nice. This thing has an external and an internal CF slot as well. I want something like this from Sharp in the Clamshell form-factor! The extra ram, built in BT, and the Graphics processor would make it a killer unit! smile.gif (No mention of battery life, though tongue.gif)
nathanwms
Isn't this a reference design and not a production handheld that can be purchased? The specs are no doubt impressive but I think this is only a wishlist handheld.
B_Lizzard
Sorry for reviving this thread, but I had a question to make, and I didn't want to post a new topic.

First of all, WHY isn't there more choice in linux handhelds?It's as though people are scared.Even Sharp stopped selling the Z everywhere, except Japan.So, what's going on?The only "mainstream" Linux PDAs were the Yopy (I just love that device), and the now-discontinued Zaurus.So, what's up with that?

Second, why haven't there been any PDAs based on the x86 platform?I'm not talking about "Geek" devices like the Flipstart, or the OQO, or whatever.I mean REAL PDAs...Are the power requirements too much? Or is ARM good enough for what it does?I mean, even in ARM processors, the only one used is the Xscale...Look at this list!!!

http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT4313418436.html#arm

It's a "shame" AMD released their CPU with a MIPS architecture.Is there really no other, better processor?

Enough with that ranting, here's my third question.

This might make me sound like a "dreamer" or something like that, but hey, I'm here for the conversation.My question is, has anybody tried to make their OWN PDA? This might sound stupid, but, a couple of people, with the right knowledge, and the right connections could make something.Apple started like that.Thing is, Apple gave the people something that didn't really exist (Personal Computers) for a lower price than their "big competitors".In one word, they made "Breakthroughs".What breakthroughs can be done in the PDA arena? What is left undiscovered?My idea is, there is still room for improvement.With the Internet and all, distributing such devices would be easy.It could even become a colaborative "Open" project.But, where would the money go? And what about hardware support? For hardware support, the community could do rather well, and for the money...well, they should serve a common purpose, such as the funding of the project itself and the people who fuel it.Or mabye, people like "Handheld-Linux" (The guy who owns the store) could be interested, and somehow this could fly.But, be warned this could also sink.But thats the risk.Anyways, there's a wealth of information out there, and I'm surprised no-one has brought this up before, even as a household "Week-end Project" (More than one weekend, of course).I'm also surprised no-one compiled that MSX emulator I was talking about.Damn.

Could SBCs do the job?

http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2614444132.html

Discuss. ph34r.gif
speculatrix
QUOTE(B_Lizzard @ Apr 28 2005, 08:11 AM)
First of all, WHY isn't there more choice in linux handhelds?It's as though people are scared.Even Sharp stopped selling the Z everywhere, except Japan.So, what's going on?The only "mainstream" Linux PDAs were the Yopy (I just love that device), and the now-discontinued Zaurus.So, what's up with that?

Second, why haven't there been any PDAs based on the x86 platform?I'm not talking about "Geek" devices like the Flipstart, or the OQO, or whatever.I mean REAL PDAs...Are the power requirements too much? Or is ARM good enough for what it does?I mean, even in ARM processors, the only one used is the Xscale...Look at this list!!!

This might make me sound like a "dreamer" or something like that, but hey, I'm here for the conversation.My question is, has anybody tried to make their OWN PDA? This might sound
*


Sorry to rain on your parade. Making a computer is not that hard. Making a small computer is difficult, there are lots of compromises on features vs size. Add requirment for battery power, and you get more constraints. Add requirement for handheld use, and it gets lots more expensive:
- plastic mouldings are expensive to produce except in high volumes,
as the set-up costs are very high
- custom-fit batteries are also likewise expensive
- surface mount high density electronics (which you need if product is to be portable) are expensive to manufacture except in high volumes, as the set-up costs are very high
- it's expensive to make the items pass various international standards on safety and rogue radio emissions
- software is expensive, only recoverable if you ship a huge number of items; ok the Z runs lots of opensource, but you still have to develop all the device drivers. Ironically, it makes it cheaper to have less features (just add expansion slots and hope 3rd parties come along!).

do you see the pattern? if it costs a million US$ to make just your very first new PDA, but subsequent ones can be made for only US$100, you have to be very sure you'll sell 10000 of them at US$200 just to recover costs!

then you've got manuals, packaging, shipping, warranties, broken-in-shipment, repairs, returns, unsold items, and other costs.

so, yes, we could design a PDA. we could even prototype one, it'd be the size of a beer crate, but getting it to be PDA sized would cost a LOT of money. And, moreover, with the technology moving so fast, it'd be obsolete within a year. Consider the SL-C860 vs the SL-C1000 - Sharp had to change CPU and drop the ATI W100 display chip as the old ones became obsolete. You could buy upfront 10,000 components to avoid obsolescence, but then you've doubled your capital investment before ever selling a single item.

I wonder if Sharp have actually sold more than 10,000 of any zaurus ever?

Paul
B_Lizzard
You present a good argument.Yet, why did that guy, "Handheld Linux" even bring up the discussion of a "Community Project"? Obviously, he did not imply of making it ourselves, but contracting other ODMs to do the job.

Check:

https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11403
https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11782&st=0

The topic seems to be still open, and handheld-linux seems to be pretty serious, he owns a store, so he pretty much knows how the market works.So, I guess that It is feasable, even in a small scale...

You never answered my other questions.Mabye someone with technical knowledge could answer, because Speculatrix is obviously making Speculations (pun intended)
speculatrix
don't misunderstand me, I *truly*want* a C3000 with a more ROM/RAM, larger display, built-in wlan or bluetooth.

I think we have two choices, really.

We find a manufacturer of a device that we all really like, and start an escrow fund to get the manufacturer to sell it with linux on it (even if it's just a command-line boot, with working device drivers), so they get the money when the device is finished. I am thinking of HTC and the wonderful new MDA-IV, or the gizmondo, or others mentioned.

or

We start an escrow fund and offer it to Sharp when they produce a C3000 with extra ROM, RAM, bluetooth or wlan.

in other words, we *must* demonstrate the commitment to buy a certain volume of the product, to take the risk away from the maker of not selling enough items. Hell, if we owned the distribution rights, we could make a fortune. Or lose it :-)

Paul
B_Lizzard
Hmmm....What you say is quite reasonable...Although I don't believe Sharp will produce a C3000 with better specs just for a couple of people...Those guys do Large-scale work, not mangy contracts for fans.For the porting matter, they could either work on a port of Linux, or release the Device Schematics and Documentation to the public under a licence, and leave the porting to the community. wink.gif

I'm puzzled though, why hasn't IBM or COMPAQ released a Linux-PDA? Although I believe that IBM has never developed such a device, now that it's coming out of the laptop business, It could happen.COMPAQ (And HP) though, such a big supporter of Linux in PDAs (Handhelds.org anyone?) hasn't ever released a single PDA based on linux.Mabye thats because of Microsoft, not letting HP/Compaq develop any PDAs outside the Pocket PC "franchise".Mabye we should ask them...

Anyways, that 2700G Reference Platform looks sweet.Throw that in a Zaurus C3000 form-factor and I'm sold.With Linux, of course.That would sell like hotdogs (Or peanuts) in a Baseball game.Or better. rolleyes.gif
speculatrix
QUOTE(B_Lizzard @ Apr 28 2005, 02:54 PM)
Hmmm....What you say is quite reasonable...Although I don't believe Sharp will produce a C3000 with better specs just for a couple of people...

Those guys do Large-scale work, not mangy contracts for fans.For the porting matter, they could either work on a port of Linux, or release the Device Schematics and Documentation to the public under a licence, and leave the porting to the community. wink.gif


when I said "we put a fund together", that'd mean at least 500 of us would cough up US$100 each, i.e. $50000 in order for them to take us seriously. If any member of the community won the lottery (as in millions), pushing a few 10,000 US$ towards Sharp might win very popular acclaim. After all, Sharp are already close to what we want - a clamshell version of the 6000W *must* have been considered, surely?

QUOTE
I'm puzzled though, why hasn't IBM or COMPAQ released a Linux-PDA? Although I believe that IBM has never developed such a device, now that it's coming out of the laptop business,

I believe, tho' I could be wrong (it happens), the 6000 was meant to be taken up by IBM for some special projects, which never happened, so Sharp pulled out of the US market.

QUOTE
It could happen.COMPAQ (And HP) though, such a big supporter of Linux in PDAs (Handhelds.org anyone?) hasn't ever released a single PDA based on linux.Mabye thats because of Microsoft, not letting HP/Compaq develop any PDAs outside the Pocket PC "franchise".Mabye we should ask them...


I believe that in the early days of www.handhelds.org, Compaq were quite cooperative about getting linux running. I don't know if this still applies, now that M$ have gotten the market wrapped up, and perhaps with the merger with HP the momentum was lost.

QUOTE
Anyways, that 2700G Reference Platform looks sweet.Throw that in a Zaurus C3000 form-factor and I'm sold.With Linux, of course.That would sell like hotdogs (Or peanuts) in a Baseball game.Or better. rolleyes.gif
*
raduga
QUOTE(speculatrix @ Apr 28 2005, 07:16 AM)
when I said "we put a fund together", that'd mean at least 500 of us would cough up US$100 each, i.e. $50000 in order for them to take us seriously. If any member of the community won the lottery (as in millions), pushing a few 10,000 US$ towards Sharp might win very popular acclaim. After all, Sharp are already close to what we want - a clamshell version of the 6000W *must* have been considered, surely?


Hah.

$50,000 fan-money for a product whose development costs run into the millions?
Marketing... production... etc...
You're talking probably a few orders of magnitude difference.

If you could get 5000 (or so) people to make pre-orders for $500 apiece,
you'd be starting to get into the range where Sharp would begin to notice you;
but if you weren't a Major Company, offering incentive and promise of
hugely expanding that order, it's unlikely to be enough to move them.

Sharp pulled out of the US/EU market because of lack of serious demand
for their Zaurus products here. A few hundred fanboys does not a serious demand
make, even waving about $100 in their fanboy fists. Be grateful that Japanese
salarymen continue to be fascinated by electronic gadgets, and insist on spending
their company nickel on them- this is the market that, today, demands the Zaurus,
and their money sways Sharp into fulfilling it. Pray that the salarymen discover WiFi
and that the Japanese government doesn't regulate it into oblivion.

Oh, and learn Japanese. tongue.gif
adf
hmmmm.

I think things are not all that grim. The tendency of computer technology is to get smaller, cheaper and faster. I think a simple evolutionary model will result in chaeper compact computers in the not too distant future... as in cheaper oqo type stuff in a few years.

In the meantime, the zaurus is very good. Open embedded seems to making progress, embdebian is stirring.

a lowpowered handheld small gadget that runs linux and is ..say a 6000w clamshell.. probably won't happen -though i'd buy one if it did- before other technology changes the ground of the discussion.

I mean.. why not think in terms aof wearable devices.. maybe with an eye movement input/output monacle for a portable interface and a docking plug of somekind for desktop use?

Is that any more outrageous a thought than a Z6000 would have been 10 years ago (when the pentium 100 & and win95 was king)?


sorry.. just had to get fututristic for a moment smile.gif
speculatrix
QUOTE(raduga @ Apr 28 2005, 04:42 PM)
QUOTE(speculatrix @ Apr 28 2005, 07:16 AM)

when I said "we put a fund together", that'd mean at least 500 of us would cough up US$100 each, i.e. $50000 in order for them to take us seriously. If any member of the community won the

$50,000 fan-money for a product whose development costs run into the millions?
Marketing... production... etc...
You're talking probably a few orders of magnitude difference.
*



I'm talking about raising 50k to get Sharp to produce a lightly modified version of the C3000, not a totally new machine. Or to get HTC to release enough specs on the MDA-IV to allow porting linux to it.

Yeah, if you want a totally new machine, your first call is to a cellular company and persuade them to place an order for 10,000 linux based smartphone PDAs.
adf
If we could agree on the specs of the zaurus mods and the specs of the escrow I'd do it.

the thing is... what are the light mods we would all agree on?

assume a 1k/3k base , as you said. ..then... what?

more flash-- cheap and easy, I think (lobby for 256megs?)
Bluetooth--I think it is also cheap and easy
More ram --cheap and easy--also 256 megs?.
onboard wireless (is g possible without to much trouble?)--cheap and easy

2nd cf slot and no microdrive? (maybe put access inside the battery compartment to save exterior redesign?)

higher clock speed?

How seriously difficult and expensive would using the 6k screen be?

What would you guys change/add/remove? How much would we be willing to pay for the device described above? how long would these specs stay current..before we want something else?

I doubt sharp will make even this... but i'd gamble 100 bucks stuck in escrow for a little while to try it.
ev1l
Nokia just annouced new models with expanded multimedia capacity, including one with a microdrive and a 2MP camera
nathanwms
QUOTE(adf @ Apr 28 2005, 06:05 PM)
If we could agree on the specs of the zaurus mods and the specs of the escrow I'd do it.

the thing is... what are the light mods we would all agree on? 

assume a 1k/3k base , as you said. ..then... what? 

more flash-- cheap and easy, I think (lobby for 256megs?)
Bluetooth--I think it is also cheap and easy
More ram --cheap and easy--also 256 megs?.
onboard wireless (is g possible without to much trouble?)--cheap and easy

2nd cf slot and no microdrive?  (maybe put access inside the battery compartment to save exterior redesign?)

higher clock speed?

How seriously difficult and expensive would using the 6k screen be?

What would you guys change/add/remove? How much would we be willing to pay for the device described above? how long would these specs stay current..before we want something else?

I doubt sharp will make even this... but i'd gamble 100 bucks stuck in escrow for a little while to try it.
*


I believe many of the specs you mention will be in the next generation zaurii in the not to distant future. Wifi hotspots are growing all across Japan and being made available to those who commute by train. Voip is catching on quickly as is streaming video.

All of these things mean that future Zaurus models will likely have faster processors, possibly even companion chips for graphic/video (Intel 2700G?), built-in wifi to allow users to still use their phone network card in the CF slot but be able to take advantage of a wifi hotspot without removing cards, better screens for video viewing in any light conditions, even more storage for the space hungry video files.

I would like to see Sharp push the envelope even more than they have, but there is a lot of money to be made in incremental upgrades, especially when the competition isn't producing these super handhelds either.
davidmcnaught16
Now, what I'm going to say is a bit silly, and would probably be way too expensive etc, but I enjoy thinking about it anyway: Why not buy out Sony's old Clie division and make a great PDA?

I used to own a Sony Clie NX80v - amazing device, extremely well built (Lovely Magnesium rather than tacky Zaurus and other PDA's plastic!), had good features (Camera, microphone, Music controller etc) and had good hardware and battery life.

I don't have a clue about Sony's structure, how they manufacture etc, but as they have stopped making PDA's, could they sell off that division of their company?

Basically, I would love a decent clamshell mini-laptop PDA running Linux, so something like my current C860 but with features more than 'screen and keyboard', and maybe a bit smaller.

If the Clie NX80v was made landscape with good keyboard, improved screen (Like C860/1000/3000's, maybe wider), add Wifi (Maybe bluetooth) and Linux, and you've pretty much got my perfect PDA. (I thought the UX50 was my dream PDA, until I had it and realised it was rubbish compared to the NX80v or Zaurus C860, but it was very small!).

The NX80v was Xscale based, so adding 400-600Mhz processor, bluetooth and Wifi would be fairly easy I guess. This PDA would not be cheap, but could probably cost a similar price to a C3000 if made in large enough quantities. If I had the money, and it was possible, I'd buy Sony's old Clie division and make a wikid cool PDA!
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