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Locutus73
Hi, I'm interested in studying the feasibility of installing pdaXrom on an iPAQ handeld (I have a 3970).
I tried several revision of Familiar linux on it and it seems to me that GPE have some similarities with pdaXrom: they both run X, matchbox.
I even managed to install pdaXrom packages over GPE: I installed http://www.pdaxrom.org/feed/firefox_0.8_armv5tel.ipk uncompressing the archive on the second flash partition, adding symlinks and missing libraries (libiconv.so.2.1.0 and libstdc++.so.5.0.5)... unfortunately I didn't manage to install http://mirror1.pdaxrom.org/current/firefox_1.0_armv5tel.ipk the same way.
I think that we could study a way to combine both Familiar and pdaXrom in order to obtain an iPAQ pdaXrom release. Maybe using a chrooted enviroment or a pivoot root on a SD.
I'm not a linux guru, but I like to play with it... I'm a sort of user/poweruser smile.gif and I'm prone to testing-bricking-reflashing.

Any ideas/starting point?

P.S.: I'm a C3000 fan and I await for a C3000 pdaXrom release in order to think about buying one.

Many thanks in advance
Alessandro
koen
QUOTE(Locutus73 @ May 11 2005, 10:30 AM)
Hi, I'm interested in studying the feasibility of installing pdaXrom on an iPAQ handeld (I have a 3970).
I tried several revision of Familiar linux on it and it seems to me that GPE have some similarities with pdaXrom: they both run X, matchbox.
I even managed to install pdaXrom packages over GPE: I installed http://www.pdaxrom.org/feed/firefox_0.8_armv5tel.ipk uncompressing the archive on the second flash partition, adding symlinks and missing libraries (libiconv.so.2.1.0 and libstdc++.so.5.0.5)... unfortunately I didn't manage to install http://mirror1.pdaxrom.org/current/firefox_1.0_armv5tel.ipk the same way.
I think that we could study a way to combine both Familiar and pdaXrom in order to obtain an iPAQ pdaXrom release. Maybe using a chrooted enviroment or a pivoot root on a SD.
I'm not a linux guru, but I like to play with it... I'm a sort of user/poweruser  smile.gif  and I'm prone to testing-bricking-reflashing.


If all you need is firefox, do an 'ipkg install firefox' in familiar, since it is in the feeds. If that's not the case, can you tell me what's missing in the familiar/GPE images?
Hrw
pdaxrom... what advantage it has over OpenZaurus with GPE?
gromituk
QUOTE(Hrw @ May 11 2005, 03:46 AM)
pdaxrom... what advantage it has over OpenZaurus with GPE?
*


A very good question. I've always used pdaxrom but I've always been confused about this. Any comments would be very welcome. I know you're an OZ man!
pgas
@hrw: is this a genuine request for information or just an attempt to start a flame war?....

@locust: pdaxrom now (> 1.10RC5) uses soft-vfp and is compiled with xscale optimization, so this might be a problem.
gromituk
QUOTE(pgas @ May 11 2005, 04:02 AM)
is this a genuine request for information or just an attempt to start a flame war?....
*


It's a genuine request by me. (I hope and assume you were responding to the previous post! - EDIT - I see that you were!) All I know is that the OZ people seem unhappy that the pdaxrom people aren't using their build system because it's supposed to be easier or faster or something. But I'd like to know what the difference is from a user's perspective.

I must admit I find using the Z as a PDA with pdaxrom can be a little awkward at times, compared with, say, the simplicity of a Palm device. Does GPE give you the best of both worlds?
gromituk
Eeek - I see all the gurus are reading this thread suddenly!

One thing the GPE people might like to check: does ka/pi (I've tried 1.9.4 and 2.0.1) sit there consuming CPU (14% on my 860) in GPE like it does in pdaxrom?

(Apologies to locutus - thread hijacking is rude.)
Locutus73
QUOTE(koen @ May 11 2005, 01:32 PM)
If all you need is firefox, do an 'ipkg install firefox' in familiar, since it is in the feeds.
*

I tried to install http://familiar.handhelds.org/releases/v0...._1.0-r0_arm.ipk but it doesn't seem to work. Firefox starts, but all I get are transparent/invisible windows, with visible shadowed borders. If I randomly click I get visible menus... that's all.

QUOTE(koen @ May 11 2005, 01:32 PM)
If that's not the case, can you tell me what's missing in the familiar/GPE images?
*

Firefox is a major issue to me.
I'd like also to see things like gimp, rox, ethereal, airsnort, sunbird.
Does http://familiar.handhelds.org/releases/v0.....7.3-r1_arm.ipk works (I didn't give it a try)?

More in general I'd like to see a pdaXrom implementation just for the sake of trying it, having fun, more choice... biggrin.gif
pgas
QUOTE
It's a genuine request by me.  (I hope and assume you were responding to the previous post!)

yes i edited my post.

QUOTE
All I know is that the OZ people seem unhappy that the pdaxrom people aren't using their build system because it's supposed to be easier or faster or something.  But I'd like to know what the difference is from a user's perspective.


Well Oz people have high hopes for their build system to become a generic embedded build tool for all kind of devices. Some would like that everybody uses their system, which is not a bad idea, since a change for one project will be included in an other project.

Sashz on the other hand cook up is own build system and like it...and it works rather well so ...

QUOTE
I must admit I find using the Z as a PDA with pdaxrom can be a little awkward at times, compared with, say, the simplicity of a Palm device.  Does GPE give you the best of both worlds?


or the worst of the both world? (just kidding)
Well you are right. pdaxrom is basically mini-linux laptop. (which is precisely what I want wink.gif)
gpe does try to bring the two together.


As for why I use pdaxrom:

1- Because it's there for some time now (well before OZ-gpe) so I used it for some time now and know it and like it.

2- I believe that up to now, small details are working better on pdaxrom. (but it's very subjective as try oz-gpe very quickly)

3- I think the cross and native sdk are simpler to install and to use. (just untar in the first case, just mount an image in the second case)

but feel free to try.
Hrw
QUOTE(pgas @ May 11 2005, 02:02 PM)
@hrw: is this a genuine request for information or just an attempt to start a flame war?....


Plain request - I have C760 which run my own build of OZ with OPIE and think about trying GPE (last time I tried GPE on collie).

And btw SDK - we work on memory usage of bitbake - maybe sooner or later it will drop below 40M :)
danr
pdaXrom advantages for me:

1) runs both gtk and qt apps
2) can do native compilation without the need for a workstation connected to the Internet

disadvantages:

1) still uses kernel 2.4, which means my CF card ejects on suspend
2) any contributed binaries are point solutions (can we contribute patches?)

If OZ could do 1) and 2) above then I'd consider swapping to OZ.

Regards,

Dan
adf
on a related note:
is there any particular reason that gpe couldn't do the qt (in this case maybe opie) app thing the same way pdaX apparently does? It seems to me that it really should be pretty similar in that respect-- though I doubt my skill is sufficient to prove it.

one significant difference between pdaX and gpe is internal partitioning. the 26(?)? meg /home thing kinda drives me nuts. I have expansion slots and flash cards for storing any data beyond system setting stuff . I should point out though that the complete absence of pdaX for my species of Z is something of a consideration for me when flashing tongue.gif

Not to start a flame war (especially in my case where there is only one X rom on my Z). just pointing out that there are things that can be done to gpe that have already been done to pdaX that might make gpe better
henrysviper
IMHO the build systems of both have the same level of ease of use, but bitbake/OE feels more professional.

Pdaxrom advantages (for my needs):
- It really feels like a true laptop. Familiar (as in the word, not the distro) applications are there (firefox, thunderbird, graphic links browser, mplayer, xmms, kismet etc.) and work as expected, and it seems that you could run anything you run on your laptop.
- The distro is more solid with more preferences to be set (e.g., usb-storage mode, network profiles, backlight adjustment). GPE is not so mature.
- Better handling of different languages (e.g., greek chars appear in every app without me having to do anything - I am still trying on GPE)

OZ-GPE advantages:
- Much more open community. Well this has many benefits for users (and powerusers): faster upgrades (hrw has everything in the feed the moment it is asked) and bug fixes, anyone can contribute easily, shows more promise etc.
- Interface which successfully (more or less) combines PDA with laptop.

Regards,
Greg
Hrw
@adf
You have right - GPE can be more similar to pdaxrom but it is not probably because most of GPE users comes from QVGA devices so some stuff was never used - like gimp, abiword for example. I dont know does someone from OE team used pdaxrom before so it is hard to notice what is lacking or what can be done better in OZ/GPE.

I think that most of OZ users use OPIE because before 3.5.1 there was no other choice. Now we have GPE as a choice and we use it. And it has competition from pdaxrom which many people use. And it is good - some of us (OE team) work on adding more stuff for GPE/X11 usage.
Locutus73
QUOTE(Locutus73 @ May 11 2005, 02:13 PM)
I tried to install http://familiar.handhelds.org/releases/v0...._1.0-r0_arm.ipk but it doesn't seem to work. Firefox starts, but all I get are transparent/invisible windows, with visible shadowed borders. If I randomly click I get visible menus... that's all.

[Errata corrige & OT]
I reinstalled this ipk and toggled off visual effects from GPE look&feel control panel and now Firefox is finally visible! smile.gif
[/Errata corrige & OT]

QUOTE(Locutus73 @ May 11 2005, 02:13 PM)
More in general I'd like to see a pdaXrom implementation just for the sake of trying it, having fun, more choice...  biggrin.gif
*

I repeat myself: I think an iPAQ pdaXrom would give us more choice, like zaurus' owners have.

QUOTE(pgas @ May 11 2005, 02:02 PM)
@locust: pdaxrom now (> 1.10RC5) uses soft-vfp and is compiled with xscale optimization, so this might be a problem.

Do you think that these are issues that cannot be overcome?
Actually I managed to manually installing pdaXrom ipks over Familiar (actually I did the same over PocketWorkstation) adding missing libraries (libiconv.so.2.1.0 and libstdc++.so.5.0.5).
lardman
QUOTE
@locust: pdaxrom now (> 1.10RC5) uses soft-vfp and is compiled with xscale optimization, so this might be a problem.


Is this soft-vfp different from the soft-float which is used by OZ/familiar? I didn't think so.

XScale optimisation is also not a problem if your machine has an XScale processor - the reason the OZ/familiar feeds are not xscale optimised is that it shows little speed improvement in general, and would require (at least - looking at PXA270 additional optimisations too) two seperate feeds (which at c.600MB each would be a lot of extra space).

With OZ/familiar you have a later version of libc so that isn't an issue - the major pain is the format of the pdaXrom control files (which afair the OZ ipkg doesn't like very much) - both the arch setting and the addition of empty lines in the file.


Si
pgas
QUOTE
s this soft-vfp different from the soft-float which is used by OZ/familiar? I didn't think so.


I don't think so either

QUOTE
XScale optimisation is also not a problem if your machine has an XScale processor


This was my main point (i don't know the specs of the ipaq).

And also the libs compatibility, because firefox0.8 was compiled before soft-float and firefox1.0 after...hence my hint about a possible issue. But I don't know for sure. (also a small description of what is happening might help).
Laze
Why all the fuss - basically if you like OZ use it and if you like pdaXrom use that.

Thats the beauty of linux based things and also the problem - so many projects and choices.

We work on the pdaXrom and we like it and basically hope some people like it too...
adf
bad idea.
nevermind.
how do i delete posts?
Locutus73
QUOTE(Laze @ May 12 2005, 02:33 PM)
Thats the beauty of linux based things and also the problem - so many projects and choices.
*

This is the point: I think that it would be fine to have the choice to install pdaXrom on iPAQs.

Ciao
Alessandro
koen
QUOTE(lardman @ May 12 2005, 11:45 AM)
QUOTE
@locust: pdaxrom now (> 1.10RC5) uses soft-vfp and is compiled with xscale optimization, so this might be a problem.


Is this soft-vfp different from the soft-float which is used by OZ/familiar? I didn't think so.

*



Familiar doesn't use softfloat to stay compatible with debian-arm.
GPE is a GTK+/X11 based environment, so there will be no QT apps in that image, but one could easily install qt/x11 for qt based apps.
'ipkg install gcc libc6-dev' will get you a native environment in virtually any distro.

As a side note: ROM means "Read Only Memory", please don't call (writeable!) images ROMs, it shows a deep misunderstanding of elementary things like "reading" and "writing" to memory.
ScottYelich
give it up, koen...

we have sharp to thank for this astardization of terminology.
It's almost as bad as ms's embrace, extend+break and legislate to
force usage/compliance.

It may make the hair on the back of our neck stand up, but this is how
the technology world operates... via marketing and sales, not via what
is accurate or best.

back to on topic -- I use pdaXrom on 760. I have a 700 which I test
pdaXrom and OZ (rare).... and a 5600. On the 5600, I use OZ. I primarily
use the 760 and I primarily want mp3 + xmame/dev. I want to be able
to code and compile c++/qt. Yes, this *might* be possible with other roms
(sorry) and a bit of effort (ie: pocket workstation, etc), but with pdaXrom,
it just comes native. I want a workstation in my pocket, default. What I
do on my desktop, I can do on the zaurus -- albeit probably a wee bit slower.

xfce4 on desktop -- xfce4 in vnc -- xfce4 on pda. same. emacs? gcc? less?
tcsh/csh? same.

I see that OZ/OE has the power of numbers and I see that pdaXrom has the
power of dedicated focus. I am glad for the choice. I was investigating PDAs
a while back and it was iPAQ + familiar or zaurus (700) + OZ ... and I decided
to go with OZ. pdaXrom wasn't even around at that time.

Scott
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