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dhns
Dear all,

it appears that ELSI is not really used by users and developers - and killefiz.de is no longer being updated.

And killefiz.de says:
QUOTE
elsix.org is already operational - there are still some things that need to be done but it's already much better than ZSI ever was.


But if I look at the latest entries, I have the impression that elsix is not really being adopted and used. It e.g. appears that nobody uses the voting mechanism and developes use just the default branch. And there are just 2 new entries since 17th April.

What does that mean?
* is ELSIX not user friendly enough?
* is there no new Zaurus software development?
* is there a simple solution to fix?

My opinion is that Roy has done a great job in preparing ELSIX - but there was probably not really the need for all those new bells and whistles. It was just the need to have someone to approve project updates in the old killefiz (incl. style&layout). So we end up in great technology but low use.

Should we switch back to the killefiz database&scripts (just host it here) and find volunteers to approve projects (there is a lot of spam in the killefiz backlog)?

What are your opinions?

-- hns
pgas
1- lack visibility: google for "zaurus gaim" and killfiz appear not elsix
2 - each distribution has its own feeds with a lot of apps
cybersphinx
Lack of visibility is probably the main problem. If you go to www.killefiz.de/zaurus, you don't see any mention of ELSI. That's just on the Zaurus page linked from the main page, but I guess most people use a bookmark or link to get there. Possibly the most effective thing to do is to redirect killefiz to ELSI, or at least to mention ELSI prominently on every page there.

Another problem might be the start page, at least I think the entries there are too large, so you don't see a lot of them at once. I'd show just the first line from the description on the start page, that'd make it more compact. And put the 'Recent projects' bar to the left, it's a bit lost on the right side.
dz
I wondered that as well. I think if the elsi was finished to full, it would be better utilized. The major point of having it was so we could host projects locally on that host. This way, people wouldn't have to hope that the server hosting the files was up. The original method involved using ftp, but when we got our host we weren't able to have anon ftp so we have to switch to a browser upload method. I simply haven't had time to take on a big task like that, and unfortunately noone else has volunteered to help with the elsi so I've kinda been stuck :-/ I've done some little things to try and keep development going, but switching over to a browser upload is quite the revamp in the code, and it'll take a lot of time.

If someone is willing to help program the elsi and switch over to a browser upload, I'd be willing to help them. It was easier before when I was in college and had all the time in the world. I'm graduated now and working full time, so it's a little different smile.gif
adrian
I think I'll take care of this, but it won't be any sooner than 2-3 weeks time sad.gif
dz
Well, the main question is that if that was fixed, would the elsi be used any more than it is being used now?

I think that is the question we need to address and solve. If the look is too confusing, it can be changed. If the overall elsi is too complicated, it can be simplified. Just let us know, and we'll do our best to work on it.
bluedevils
One is to get search engines to point elsi and not the old site.

I personally like the front page to be the browse software page with added links for new software changes or additions and separate trees for projects.

Most of the hot projects, however are probably more comfortable housing their own projects. It's a control thing I guess.
jamesm
QUOTE(cybersphinx @ May 31 2005, 02:43 PM)
Another problem might be the start page, at least I think the entries there are too large, so you don't see a lot of them at once. I'd show just the first line from the description on the start page, that'd make it more compact. And put the 'Recent projects' bar to the left, it's a bit lost on the right side.
*


I agree with this. The start page entries are really too large, not helped by the extremely accessible wink.gif font size used on the site.

I think perhaps the index needs on there to give software categories on the first page, that would be very useful.

Also a one-line "about" or "mission statement" piece of text somewhere at the top of the page wouldn't go amiss. To the new and uninitiated user, the whole concept of the site may be lost.
dhns
QUOTE(bluedevils @ May 31 2005, 04:47 PM)
I personally like the front page to be the browse software page with added links for new  software changes or additions and separate trees for projects.

I agree on that.

If I look at the old killefiz page, it gives approx. 18 entries with: name, short description, date of update. And on the left side the starting points to browse categories.

It is pretty similar to e.g. http://www.versiontracker.com or http://www.macupdate.com which are very popular and heavily used software archives.

So, my proposal would be to combine the current "Browse Software" page with the "Recent Projects" list as the starting page. And show in the "Recent Projects" list: Title, Version, first 40 characters of the "About:" part combined with the date (does not need to be the full "Monday, May 30th 2005 - 3:16 pm" format - "2005/05/30" would be enough). Don't show Author, Full description, Changes on this list.

Then, let's see if useage improves.

-- hns
craigtyson
Dosnt help that there are quite a few broken links. And Im guessing more people are using direct ipk feeds to get software now ie Cacko / Sharp / Opie / XPDA
rjohnson1969
My problem is that the Zaurus software community has become very diverse. My 5500 w/ Sharp ROM was once the main target of software development, but now several other ROMs and Zaurii are more popular. What I think a software index needs to do is help the user find software that is supposed to run on his particular device.
Mickeyl
Personally, now that the amount of devices and distributions are so big, I do think that a semi-automated approach is needed, i.e. something that is coupled with the feeds of the "big" distributions.

Speaking for the OpenZaurus distribution, we have thousands of packages in our feeds - an automated web interface (perhaps with the option to supply comments and additional metadata by hand) would be a much more useful than an index where people manually have to submit everything. Indexes like that tend to rot pretty soon.
gojira
QUOTE(dz @ Jun 1 2005, 01:02 AM)
Just let us know, and we'll do our best to work on it.
*


here are my suggestions:

* change the home page to be an introduction and a menu, move the current home page to a sub page

* add more sub-categories to make browsing easier (259 in applications)

* include all entries on one page (13 pages in applications)

* able to view all entries in a category including sub-categories, or just those in a sub-category

* mechanism for users to add compatibility information

* requirement when a package is added to include compatibility information

* use search options to filter browse list

as a c860 user, the most useful thing is to know in advance is if the app will work at all, and if it will work in high-res

thanks
ken
QUOTE(dhns @ May 31 2005, 02:55 AM)
Dear all,

it appears that ELSI is not really used by users and developers - and killefiz.de is no longer being updated.

And killefiz.de says:
QUOTE
elsix.org is already operational - there are still some things that need to be done but it's already much better than ZSI ever was.




Finally, some method of feedback. I have emailed elsix and never ever received any responses to the things I've asked and commented on.

1) the search feature on elsix is for the most part non functional. It can find certain things, but it is far from the search feature on killefiz. Try searching for various things and you'll see.

2) I've wanted to update incorrect entries, and emailed elsix but never have I gotten any response back. Pretty hard to fix anything if the only way you can fix something is to claim it.

3) killefiz entries are more compacted, easier to find things. I've really wanted to update things on his site, but again, never a response to my offering to assist in checking entries, etc. Things more or less have died when killefiz stopped updating his site. Really, all that his site needs is to be cleaned up of the bad entries.

4) elsix, as mentioned by others, have no had the visibility that killefiz has. Of course, I go back to the very limited search feature ...

5) lastly, responses would be nice. In one case, I had to really work at trying to contact the author of his program because the email listed was incorrect.

I would point it that it gets very disappointing when I see errors, but can't do anything to provide the corrections.
tumnus
My two points:

1) As others have said, the entry for each listed item is too big. The description should be chopped off after only about 30 characters or something, with new lines removed too.
2) I don't seem to be able to upload ipks direct to ELSI. When I get to the page that instructs me where to upload, it doesn't give the necessary details.
ken
I've been thinking, and just came to a realization.

The reason why killefiz became successful and others not as much so, is his sytem was easy to see new things, easy to add new things, and you could quickly do what you want.

It was an open system, so developers could quickly pop in and pop out. That made it a painless process. Other systems were not as successful, because they weren't as easy or simple for them to use.

The same goes for users. They could easily do anything.

There were errors, which he'd go in and check. Other users could submit changes as needed, all of which were subject to his review. Toward the end it was too much for a single person to do, which is why he problem just said, heck it.

That's the price of an open system. At the same time, it was the very reason why he had such a popular system.

We may say we want this or that, but I think the reality is, his worked pretty well as is. It just needed more help.
dhns
QUOTE(ken @ Jun 12 2005, 06:09 PM)
I've been thinking, and just came to a realization.

The reason why killefiz became successful and others not as much so, is his sytem was easy to see new things, easy to add new things, and you could quickly do what you want.

It was an open system, so developers could quickly pop in and pop out.  That made it a painless process.  Other systems were not as successful, because they weren't as easy or simple for them to use.

The same goes for users.  They could easily do anything.

There were errors, which he'd go in and check.  Other users could submit changes as needed, all of which were subject to his review.  Toward the end it was too much for a single person to do, which is why he problem just said, heck it.

That's the price of an open system.  At the same time, it was the very reason why he had such a popular system.

We may say we want this or that, but I think the reality is, his worked pretty well as is.  It just needed more help.
*

Exactly!!!!

So before inventing a third system, I would propose to reanimate the original killefiz and find some volunteers (moderators) to approve the change requests.

That could be a much easier job to do than modifying the ELSIX PHP code until it becomes successful (sorry, dz).

-- hns
ken
QUOTE(dhns @ Jun 13 2005, 11:04 PM)
Exactly!!!!

So before inventing a third system, I would propose to reanimate the original killefiz and find some volunteers (moderators) to approve the change requests.

That could be a much easier job to do than modifying the ELSIX PHP code until it becomes successful (sorry, dz).


Small problem there. I'm not sure killefiz gave the code to the elsix people. I think he gave the database, or a dump, but not sure if he gave the actual coding from his website. Last I saw him was some 42 days ago. I personally wouldn't mind trying to help maintain his system, but I have no clue how to contact him, etc.
dz
QUOTE(dhns @ Jun 14 2005, 04:04 AM)
That could be a much easier job to do than modifying the ELSIX PHP code until it becomes successful (sorry, dz).
-- hns
*


Heh, you don't have to say sorry. You guys don't have to feel bad at all for wanting to ditch the elsi. I made the elsi to help the community, and if you guys feel that going a different route, than that's the route to go for the community.

elsi isn't for personal gain; it's for community gain.
ken
QUOTE(dz @ Jun 14 2005, 07:48 AM)
Heh, you don't have to say sorry.  You guys don't have to feel bad at all for wanting to ditch the elsi.  I made the elsi to help the community, and if you guys feel that going a different route, than that's the route to go for the community.


Of course that's not to say that there aren't good things about elsix:

1) resizing of images are automatic (I would just prefer a larger image size) + uploading from the local disk.
2) the ability to see a page of programs + images (that's great for browsing instead of having to go through each and every program to see how it's like - that probably would be a good option if you don't know what you want and are judging by the image + words) can be nice. Perhaps as one of the "views" that one can use, just perhaps not the only view.
3) it does allow for more data such as roms, etc (I just think the information should be "optional" rather than required)

As for having a 3rd rewrite? Not needed, I think.

Since most of the issues dealing with elsix deal with interface stuff, I don't see why it couldn't be redone to include the best of both worlds?

I'm not sure how it'll affect the images -- killefiz did it where the image name matched the database entry (ie: 0045_0, 0045_1, 0045_2).
ken
Can someone add another category in elsix? I'd like to add one called: "feeds"
koan
QUOTE(ken @ Jun 14 2005, 10:15 AM)
Since most of the issues dealing with elsix deal with interface stuff, I don't see why it couldn't be redone to include the best of both worlds?


ELSI is good but it just doesn't look "cool" enough.

If it was cooler, more people would use it. Maybe a different theme is all it takes ?
dhns
QUOTE(koan @ Jun 15 2005, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE(ken @ Jun 14 2005, 10:15 AM)
Since most of the issues dealing with elsix deal with interface stuff, I don't see why it couldn't be redone to include the best of both worlds?


ELSI is good but it just doesn't look "cool" enough.

If it was cooler, more people would use it. Maybe a different theme is all it takes ?
*


It is IMHO not only a matter of theming but of information density and number of clicks (incuding click-dragging the scrollbar). The fonts are in my opinion too large and too detailled information is shown on the home page - instead of giving an overview. That was much better on killefiz: open a bookmark and see what was recently added. Then look at the interesting entries for more details.

(BTW that is the most missing feature of the current OESF: show the 20 most recent postings on the home page - but I have found a workaround: bookmark the 'View New Posts').

-- hns
lardman
I use OZ exclusively therefore I don't really have any use for Elsi (as everything I use is in a feed, or I will add it to a feed), however the ability to search feeds (for packages and possibly files too) would be useful, and it would also afford people the possibility of seeing what's available with different flash images.

I hate to say it, but things have moved on, and due to various factors the majority of packages are now fixed to using a certain ROM (be it Sharp-based , pdaXrom, or one of the OZ images) - the ability to search these different packages would be useful.


Si
ken
QUOTE(lardman @ Jun 15 2005, 11:59 AM)
I hate to say it, but things have moved on, and due to various factors the majority of packages are now fixed to using a certain ROM (be it Sharp-based , pdaXrom, or one of the OZ images) - the ability to search these different packages would be useful.


That's one aspect I'm thinking would work, hence my asking if they'll approve of a "feed" category.
mscdex
I think a feeds category would be excellent as well. I use the default sharp rom and have a hard time finding the best feed or even website to get the newest/best software for my rom.

Also, just by eyeing both killefiz and elsi, it seemed to me that both had almost exactly the same software. So I just used killefiz because of it's easy to use and minimalistic interface. And because it is minimalistic, it makes for an easier read/display when viewing the page on a Zaurus or other handheld.

My $0.02
chyang
Why IPs in china cannot connect to elsix.org?
Any clues?
Thanks.
offroadgeek
QUOTE(chyang @ Sep 10 2005, 01:25 AM)
Why IPs in china cannot connect to elsix.org?
Any clues?
Thanks.
*

That's a good question... I'll ask ibiblio and see what they say.

Sorry for any troubles.
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