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sashz
Currently and for the last 1.5 years i have been working fulltime on the pdaXrom project but that might not be the case for much longer due to cashflow problems

We need roughly $500 a month to pay all my bills and stay alive and pay for hardwarde/internet/site etc. - the $500 makes it possible for me to work fulltime on the project. Usually each month we get a maximum total of $200 from donations and banner clicks - what normally happens is that Laze pays the difference up to the $500 we need each month to keep everything running. But due to problems with Lazes private economy he can't be paying this difference for the next 4-6 months at least.

So now we are left with two options:
1. We get more donations and banner clicks so the total amount each month reaches the $500. If each user that was active in the forum just donated like $10-20 it would be solved. I know some people donate but not as many that downloads the rom at least smile.gif Maybe we should make it so you could have a regular subscribtion for each month?

2. I go find a "real" job and thereby i would only me able to work like 1 hour on the pdaXrom project a day and that would not be good for the project. Yes we could find more developers but each time we have tried they work on the project for a week and then they lose interest - so we have decided that i stay the core developer and we have sub-developer making applets/programs etc for the rom.

I of course prefer option 1 so please, please help keep pdaXrom alive and donate today wink.gif
ltrm
Well thats my donation made.

I think that a regular payment option would be a good idea.

Hope everybody else chips in.

ltrm
Martin
Hi Laze, Sash and other developers,

YES I'm interested in donating about 50 EURO, but I could not pay it because ikobo and paypal will not accept my credit cards until some weeks ago ...

now I hope to find a solution with paypal, but it will be very helpful to make a normal money transfer ... I live in germany and it will be nice to transfer money to a german bank or bank without transfer costs ...

Good luck and go on developing ...
Martin
Laze
Martin how about MoneyBrookers https://www.moneybookers.com/app/?rid=633630

I don't think you could transfer anything without paying something - it should be pretty easy to transfer money to my danish bank though i think. But please try the other options first.
Zauruman
Although I don't use pdaXrom( I have tried it though smile.gif ), I'll be making a donation since I think it's a cool project and I'd like to see it develop...
Keep up the work chaps
kopsis
Ditto. Just the idea of someone being able to work full-time on a Zaurus ROM is so cool that I'm willing to kick in a few $$ just on general principle smile.gif
omro
I just contributed :-)

I love pdaXrom and when OpenOffice works on it (please developers help us get OpenOffice working on your rom), I know it will be my rom of choice.

I can definitely spare 10 dollars a month for a few months.

ikobo didn't work with my mastercard and threw up tons of errors with my visa, so I had to use paypal.

Good luck!
ikm
I hope you people don't mind too much if I write this in Russian -- well, I guess you do mind, but I'm just trying to make my message most clear, without any possible misunderstanding I occasionally get when a recepient of mine is trying to decipher something I enciphered smile.gif, ok?

sashz, тут дело вот в чем. Люди будут жертвовать деньги, только если будут видеть, что это что-то меняет, что что-то происходит, что они не жертвуют их впустую. В данный момент проект pdaxrom, со стороны, по крайней мере, выглядит как полностью замороженный проект без следов какой-либо деятельности. То есть, ничего не происходит: за кучу времени вышел только один RC (хороший, кстати, но только один) -- и больше не произошло ничего вообще. То есть, вообще ничего. Текущий сайт не обновляется, о новом сайте речь вроде и шла, а воз и ныне там. Изредка Laze появляется на форуме и рассказывает о том, что идет напряженная деятельность, и что дескать отсутствие какой-либо информации о ней говорит только о ее напряженности. Но это же нонсенс полный -- люди поверят в напряженную деятельность, только если будут видеть ее результаты -- и чем больше, тем лучше! Но никаких результатов не видно. Так с какой целью люди будут жертвовать, если, несмотря на их предыдущие попытки, проект, наоборот, вообще остановился? Зачем жертвовать, если это ничего не изменяет? Люди при этом пробуют другую стратегию -- раз пожертвования никакого результата не приносят, то, может быть, будет получен какой-либо результат от их отсутствия?

Я что хочу сказать. Если действительно какая-то работа ведется, то она, или как минимум информация о ней должна быть постоянно доступна. Люди любят новости. Люди любят новые фичи. Люди вообще любят, когда что-то проиходит. Тогда при появлении новой фичи можно будет просить их о том, чтобы они чего-нибудь пожертвовали. Но куда лучше вообще сделать систему, где есть список фичей, и каждый желающий может персонально внести сумму, которую он даст за ее выполнение. По каждой фиче должен быть свой тред, в каждый из которых будут поститься апдейты о том, что с фичой происходит. Все эти апдейты также автоматом можно выносить в одну основную ленту новостей. Как только фича сделана, все положенные на нее деньги уходят команде разработчиков. Это будет гораздо лучше. Это вообще будет идеальным вариантом.

Можно также ввести подписку, но, думаю, это будет гораздо хуже.

В общем, коммуникация -- вот что ОЧЕНЬ важно. По сути, люди жертвуют за коммуникацию, частным случаем которой являются новые релизы -- но также и новости, и прочие вещи. А когда люди не жертвуют, а делают вклад в то, что им КОНКРЕТНО необходимо -- это вообще совсем хорошо. Я крайне настоятельно мог бы порекомендовать подумать над предложенной bounty-системой, где люди вносят вклады за фичи. По-моему, это было бы САМЫМ лучшим вариантом для проекта сейчас. Если же продолжать политику о том, что дескать, "нам нужны деньги, а дальше уж мы там сами как-нибудь", то проект, скорее всего, загнется.

Все это -- на уровне простого совета. Надеюсь, я достаточно адекватно смог высказать свои мысли. Спасибо за понимание.
badog
i will originate donation in china for X as soon as.
cattin
I donated last month and I'm willing to donate another 50$ once a C3k version is available.

Maybe it would make sense to split the donations to the various projects e.g.
- C3k Port 250$
- C3100 Port 10$
- OpenOffice 75$
As the development effort would thus be transparently invested in the various sub-projects this might attract more donations for the highly requested projects.

what do you think?

regards, Philippe
omro
I'd certainly contribute more regularly if there was more obvious form of feedback as to what work was being done.

I'd love to see a pdaXrom timeline and a list of goals for each up coming release.

If pdaXrom users could help to shape the direction of the rom and the apps which run on it, I think that would encourage more money from said users. The users who contribute could be allowed to vote for changes, apps, etc.

We users would be the clients for you, the developers.

Ideally, by keeping us users happy, you get the money you need in order to add the things to pdaXrom that you, the developers want for it too.

Hope that seems logical.
albertr
I think ikm and omro have a very sound idea.
-albertr
gyver
Did you receive a donation of roughly $80 two weeks ago by moneybookers from lionel-shopping@somedomain? I monitored the donat-o-meter but didn't see anything matching my donation (went from $35 to $95 by $30 steps last time I checked, today it is at $220).
omro
QUOTE(albertr @ Aug 16 2005, 06:04 AM)
I think ikm and omro have a very sound idea.
-albertr
*


Anyone able to translate what ikm said? tongue.gif

Would be curious to hear what Laze and Sashz have to say in response to my suggestion, as that is really up to them if they're willing.
Laze
gyver got it - thank you - the donation meter is reset each month.

Me and sash will post a timeline but the "problem" is that sash is just like me - often something more interesting than fixing a stupid bug arrives.

But as right now we are working on finishing the latest 10.4 for all the different platforms (looking into the latest different models too) and at the same time Sash is struggeling with the new X system for the embedded platform with heavy accelration on many thing.

Openoffice is bascially very "hard" due to manu things including the library problems and java includes etc.

As always we are planning on making different projects/bugs you can donate towards but if for example you wan't to quickly see a C31k you can just "mark" you donation in the comment and write something like "Please work on a C3k1 version" - which many people already do.

IKM: I have tried to translate your text and i agree - i will look into it today - actually i have a weeks holliday this week and hopefully we can get the new site running. One part of it will be Sash writing a weekly blog about progress/activity.
rmrfchik
QUOTE(omro @ Aug 16 2005, 05:19 PM)
Anyone able to translate what ikm said?  tongue.gif


He complain about lack of some kind of feedback from developers. He said, iIt looks like pdaXrom is dead project -- no new version, news. Old site.
People like new stuff, news and other activity, and ready to pay for it. It's hard to decide to pay for project which seems to be dead.

In short, this is that ikm said.

I think, I agree with him in general.
omro
QUOTE(rmrfchik @ Aug 16 2005, 06:39 AM)
QUOTE(omro @ Aug 16 2005, 05:19 PM)
Anyone able to translate what ikm said?  tongue.gif


He complain about lack of some kind of feedback from developers. He said, iIt looks like pdaXrom is dead project -- no new version, news. Old site.
People like new stuff, news and other activity, and ready to pay for it. It's hard to decide to pay for project which seems to be dead.

In short, this is that ikm said.

I think, I agree with him in general.
*



I love pdaXrom, I'd be perfectly happy to get involved as an administrative point of contact between the developers and the users, help to publish the feedback, goals, milestones, update the website, etc etc etc. If that would help the developers to develop and drum up enthusiasm for the project. If Laze and Sashz would let me get involved that is.
Sna
i donate 20$ for the first month
and 10$ each month for 6 months smile.gif
i hope everybody can make something like this to keep the project alive smile.gif
gfdsa
agree with ikm, guys, show us what are you doing, and what are you planning to do
maxg
My suggestion to keep pdaXrom more alive would be to accept more help from other people. For example, I think you should delegate the task of managing the ipk feeds and focus on the core developpment (kernel, X server, hardware). Of course the pdabuilder helps a lot, but still, it may be good to have someone to take care of keeping all pacakges up to date, port and compile new versions and post new programs (ie merge the "user contributed" feed, which has great stuff inside but is mostly outdated, and the official feeds in a single pdaX feed). Of course, I volunteer to do the job. I can even offer to host the files on my server.
Otherwise, maybe it would be better to delegate website and doc-related works or maybe create a Wiki ?
jerrybme
QUOTE(Laze @ Aug 16 2005, 08:25 AM)
IKM: I have tried to translate your text and i agree - i will look into it today - actually i have a weeks holliday this week and hopefully we can get the new site running. One part of it will be Sash writing a weekly blog about progress/activity.
*


I whole heartedly agree that updates to the website in the form of a developers' blog would be a great idea & keep interest & donations up (I just made another donation & will try and be more regular contributing)

Keep up the great work!

Cheers,

Jerry
Laze
When i get around to finishing the new website all developers can upload and upgrade ipks with new versions. The biggest problem will probally be people uploading broken versions but lets look at that when we get the site up and running.
Laze
Nevermind i will pay all the future development costs and buy all the needed hardware as soon i get my check... :-) Just got this e-mail:

UROMILONES PRIMITIVA
GRAN V?A RAM?N y CAJAL, 13
28002 ? MADRID SPAIN
TEL:+34 695 871 590


FROM THE DESK OF THE
AWARD DEPARTMENT.
Date: 13 August 2005
REF FILE N?: CE/962/11/M
BATCH N ?:EU/625-22-10

RESULTS FOR "3RD" CATEGORY

ATTENTION: SIR/MADAM,

WE are pleased to inform you of the release of the results of EUROMILLONE LOTTERY PRIMITIVA NATIONAL/ INTERNACIONAL PROGRAM held on the 20TH JULY, 2005. SPAIN

Your individual/company email was attached to ticket number 210-585-666 with serial number 22-236 which drew to the lucky number EU-258 44-212-30, which consequently won the lottery in the 3rd category.You have therefore been approved for a lump sum pay out of ? 215,510.(TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED AND TEN EURO ONLY) in cash credited to BATCH N?: EU/625-22-10
This is from a total cash prize of ? 3,448,160.00 (THREE MILLION FOUR HUNDRED AND FOURTY EIGHT THOUSAND,ONE HUNDERD AND SIXTY EURO ONLY) shared among the seventeen international winners in this category. CONGRATULATIONS!!!

Your fund is now deposited with a security company insured in your name under a fixed bond insurance policy. We ask that you should keep this award from public notice until your claim has been processed or until your money has been remitted into your nominated account, As part of our security protocol to avoid double claiming or unwarranted taking advantage of this program by participants. All participants were selected through a computer ballot system drawn from over 25,000 companies and 25,000, individual email addresses and names from all over the world.
albertr
Only 215,510? The corrupted goverment officials from Niger never offered me less than a few mils wink.gif Guess they don't use pdaXrom in Africa...
-albertr
bam
one quick question, is there a 3100, pdax in the future? Can I "pay" for the developement of this? I would be willing to discuss a monthly fee for the next few years, if thats a possibility. I will make a one time donation, I gotta say pdax is just so cool looking, love to see where it goes.
maxg
Ahahah, I love those scams, but my all time favorites are the "I'm a millionaire in Panama but I'll die soon so I need your accout to deposit my fortune please give me your bank number thanks"
Back to the IPK problem ; you should keep old versions of apps even if a newer one was uploaded, and leave a "broken version" link to report non working software. Having old release is also a good idea if there are some brocken backward compatibility with other softwares. Nice progress, though, I'm waiting for the new website with tons of ipks to post.
Laze
maxq - execellent idea :-)

If anyone wants a specific hardware running pdaXrom normally they can just send me the hardware and normally in a month or so it will be running pdaXrom - but please don't send toasters and microwaves - we have tried but must admit we have failed.

And good news btw. i think i found the CMS system thats easy to use but also flexible enough - im currently testing it a bit more but i think we found a winner in phpwcms.
bam
maybe trisoft or streamline would consider a wholesale purchase for such hardware? I figure there has to be at least 10+ people with 1000/3000/3100 that want pdaxrom for thier units, I would be willing to toss in 75.00 for the purchase of a wholesale unit from trisoft or streamline. Maybe setup a paypal account for just this thing, separate from the monthly expense donations.
Cresho
I'm very glad to see you guys are still around.

It gives me a sense that sharp is not the only one trying to keep zaurus alive and someone else is diving in helping out in the effort of promoting linux as a portable power house.

now only if i can print from my zaurus.
stbrock
Sashz is happy turning out the best software for the Z I've run across, and I for one have made another donation to keep him that way. Here's hoping he never has to get a "real" job.

I like the idea of a monthly subscription (voluntary of course) and suggested something similar a while ago. I still think it would be the best way to have a fairly dependable monthly inflow. A hundred people contributing $5-10/month should be achievable and save Laze and Sashz having to flog us for contributions as much. (They show a lot more restraint than some in the computer world) A subscription is very easy to set up on PayPal. There would be some small percentage lost in fees, but well worth it to the project in the long run I would expect.

Laze -- PM me where and how to ship you some hardware that I'd like to "just work" on pdaXrom.
Laze
Hardware should be sent to:
Mikkel Skovgaard Soerensen
Danmarksgade 96, 4 th
9000 Aalborg
Denmark
sds
Laze,

I see you submitted a Project Registration Inquiry to Sourceforge a year ago, but it was closed (why?) and I could not find any discussion about it on the forums.
So my question is: why not use the ready infrastructure at Sourceforge or Berlioz or any other site specifically created for development of open source?
Why not open a pdaXrom project there with you (and Sash) as admin?

I see these specific advantages for pdaXrom:
  • Web site structure, downloads, feature request/bug tracking are automatically and profesionally taken care of so plenty manual work and financial charges are spared.
  • The source code repository is public, so anybody at any time can see what exactly is worked on at the moment. Access rights can be configured, so permanent contributors may easily participate. (I personally am thinking of writing some programs, but I am not doing it because the need to publish the code, version it and pack it takes too much time and additional effort on my own).
  • More people, who already said they want can get involved and distribute the load (Zumi, maxg, omro etc.) -- one responsible for the docs or content of the web site, another for maintaining the Bugzilla database (updating status, removing duplicates, editing etc), still another for releases etc.
  • Donations are taken care of, and they may be for a specific person/task -- as cattin and ikm suggest.
  • The whole infrastructure gives automatically enough information about the current status of the project, so there is no need to write separate documents for it. In addition, any developer can maintain his own Diary at the site -- just as you and jerrybme propose. Specific questions could be answered here at the Forum just as now or, if very specialized -- in a specific mailing list.
I see one possible drawback -- financing through banners/google syndication would not be possible. However, will we need that at all then?

The current Forum here at OESF may be used as the official forum. The current site at pdaXrom.org may still continue to exist or be served via VHOST (that is, all requests to pdaXrom.org are forwarded to the sourceforge site).

I am not sure the cross-compile SDK might be so easily set up at Sourceforge (although certainly possible), but the transfer of anything else should not take more than a week. However, after an initial phase of transformation, adding new content/code will take much less time and will be distributed -- so actually you and Sash will have much less to do about tedious, uninteresting tasks, and much more time for interesting for you topics.

The whole idea is in no way a new one and many Zaurus-related projects (XQT-Server, OZ etc) are using it since long ago successfully.
So, why not? I might be missing something very important -- what is it?

Rgs,
--
Svetlin
allanjard
Hi,

I'm definitely up for sending money to you via paypal, however I very much agree with the others here. A developer blog so we could see what was going on would be wonderful.

A
omro
Will we, as paying contributors, be able to have a say in the steering of pdaXrom? I don't wish to say bad things about the other roms, cause some of them are seriously impressive, but they're always more focussed on what the developer wants on the rom, rather than what the user wants on the rom.

If you says to us that those who regularly contribute a monthly subscription fee can be on a steering committee of sorts to be involved in choices like and assigning priority too

which bugs need to be fixed,
which features need to be added,
which apps need to be ported,
etc

I think that would encourage me to contribute regularly, because I would know I was having my needs catered for.

You developers are doing a great job, but if you want your userbase to support you, unlike some of the other roms, you really need to incorporate user feedback more readily, ok it will mean spending time doing things you might not exactly want to do, but it will also finance you doing the things you do want to do.

Who else agrees with this?
gyver
QUOTE(omro @ Aug 17 2005, 04:28 PM)
You developers are doing a great job, but if you want your userbase to support you, unlike some of the other roms, you really need to incorporate user feedback more readily, ok it will mean spending time doing things you might not exactly want to do, but it will also finance you doing the things you do want to do.

Who else agrees with this?
*


Me!
A small webapp where contributing users can add requests, the developpers can price them and the users can split their contributions (set by the devs when the money is received) amongs requests would be ideal.
ThirtyOne
A ROM is not just the sum of a bunch of individual requests. The developers should have flexibility in how the ROM develops.

I would propose two ways to contribute:

- A general contribution with the ability to indicate what features are a priority to you

- A bounty system where users commit that if certain features are implemented - by the core team or others - they will pay out the bounty.
scheck.r
All people who like PdaXrom have to donate regularly. I mean look at how fast development has gone on PdaXrom, the resulting ROM is really promising. We have a good team of talented, passionate and friendly developpers. The Z's life-time is so short before we buy a new one. We absolutely need full time developpers.

I agree with Omro to have more User centric packages instead of developper centric as we don't spend money for software contrary to PocketPC and Palm. Right now there are not a lot of user centric packages in the feed.

However we don't need a lot. I prefer not a lot of packages but very good ones. I have to say that the available user centric packages are well chosen so far. For example ROX file manager is the best user friendly-full-featured file manager I have ever seen in all other ROMS even better than TreeexplorerQT Plus edition which costs $17, same goes for abiword, gnumeric, gQview, sylpheed,...When I think that I spent $30 for TextMaker on SharpROM (what a mistake, doesn't install well, interface ugly and unituitive, open file manager unuseable, memory hungry, ...)

On the other hand, these great apps are very powerful and as a consequence I also want my money spent for graphic acceleration, speed in general, better hardware support for various CF/USB devices, and this is the hardest/longest/trickiest part.

I trust the PdaXrom team to do a very good job with our money.
rebski
My present priority is for Cacko ROM for the C1000 but I love to watch progress on the PdaXrom. So much so that I donated about 6 months ago.

Count me in on contributions, the simplest proposal in the thread was for $20 now and $10 a month for 6 months. This is more than sashz requested but is fine by me.

Are we up for this?
Laze
Hey quick status update... Im spending my one week holliday(to much regret of my girlfriend) working on the new site and i can promise that it will be finished within the end of this week. Mostly all your requested features will be included - i think this will be one the biggest thing happing for the pdaXrom for a long time - except big releases of course.

So please be patient for a couple of days and then we start optimizing and discussing it - then i will start a thread for input/feedback and hunt for new co-webmasters.

Until then please don't IM/PM/E-mails me to death i know there is a lot of people willing to help and you will get your chance very soon.

Regarding SF hosting etc. i have tried many different things - i prefer having my own hardware and full control.
omro
QUOTE(scheck.r @ Aug 17 2005, 09:19 AM)
I agree with Omro to have more User centric packages instead of developper centric as we don't spend money for software contrary to PocketPC and Palm. Right now there are not a lot of user centric packages in the feed.

However we don't need a lot. I prefer not a lot of packages but very good ones. I have to say that the available user centric packages are well chosen so far. For example ROX file manager is the best user friendly-full-featured file manager I have ever seen in all other ROMS even better than TreeexplorerQT Plus edition which costs $17, same goes for abiword, gnumeric, gQview, sylpheed,...When I think that I spent $30 for TextMaker on SharpROM (what a mistake, doesn't install well, interface ugly and unituitive, open file manager unuseable, memory hungry, ...)

On the other hand, these great apps are very powerful and as a consequence I also want my money spent for graphic acceleration, speed in general, better hardware support for various CF/USB devices, and this is the hardest/longest/trickiest part.

I trust the PdaXrom team to do a very good job with our money.
*


I totally agree with this. To make the Rom more "user friendly" wouldn't really take that much. If there was a user group, a steering committee of users who worked out the core apps they needed and core things that would make the rom more user centric, then once that was done, the developers could do the things they wanted.

You could even split the rom into a pdaXrom (user version) pdaXrom (developer version).

Lots of distributions have two variants, one more for general people and one more for power users.

The goal of pdaXrom should be to widen the user base by making it as user friendly as possible. And no offence to the developers, you need user feedback and user involvement, we know what we want and we know what we want to see. We can more easily tell you the core apps and features we need to make this amazing rom, even more so.

It's almost there, really it is. Just let us guide you, take the time to hear us and you'll see our appreciation in terms of contributions and support and cheerleading and your userbase will grow.

This is not a threat, just a fact, if you don't pay attention to us, this support will probably wane very quickly if people think "why bother giving these guys money? They don't listen."
adf
The developers seem to be doing very nicely so far. But if it is a simple matter of getting more people to compile and test more apps....
Laze
When we get around to it we will be releasing a prepacked version and stripped down version out any preinstalled apps (might not even have a window manager). We don't need no comitee to tell us what to do - if you need a certain program just compile it. Might sound a bit harsh but with the big work load on our shoulders already we don't need people crying for a certain game - just look at some of the forum posts lately.

This can be handled by anybody with a bit of programming skills... We just want to make a good and solid "base" for everything else.
omro
QUOTE(Laze @ Aug 18 2005, 12:27 AM)
When we get around to it we will be releasing a prepacked version and stripped down version out any preinstalled apps (might not even have a window manager). We don't need no comitee to tell us what to do - if you need a certain program just compile it. Might sound a bit harsh but with the big work load on our shoulders already we don't need people crying for a certain game - just look at some of the forum posts lately.

This can be handled by anybody with a bit of programming skills... We just want to make a good and solid "base" for everything else.
*


Actually that is a little bit harsh as no one has even mentioned games in this post. I'd be surprised if most people decide to use pdaXrom for it's game playing abilities. Making people interested in a rom is actually less about the under pinings, which are important, but people get enthusiastic about a rom for the user experience, the out of the box experience. That requires a core set of APPLICATIONS and FEATURES which frankly, are currently lacking. People use pdaXrom and think cool, wow so promising, but they soon flash back. You're losing people because you're not catering for them. THAT'S what a steering committee would help you address.

I've already suggested a user oriented variant and a developer oriented variant. Just allow a steering committe to tell you what we would like you to put in the user oriented variant and help to set that up and you can do what the heck you like with the other variant, safe in the knowledge that you'll get contributions and as long as the user variant is kept up to date underneath and the applications are refreshed whenever newer and better versions come out. Surely that can't be too much to ask.

If people have just arrived at pdaXrom for the first time, many don't know how to compile apps, so how can you say that? There is a dearth of information and assistance out there and there need to be clear tutorials and instructions. Hopefully the new site will address this.

The average user doesn't want to compile their own apps. I wish linux people would get that into their heads. Not everyone is technically minded and being told they have to compile an application, just to even try it, is going to put people off. And you'll lose interest before you even start.

My idea for a committee isn't meant to be intrusive. It's just to provide a user based focus. You don't even have to be involved until we're ready to pass on our requests to you. They would determine a core set of apps and features we'd like to see. We'd ask you to incorporate them for the next release. Every 3 months or so, the core application set could be reviewed by the committee and if they say, based on user feed back "xyz-app" should be included as well, they it should and if "pqr-app" isn't being used, then it could be removed and "fgh-feature" could be improved by doing "def", then perhaps focus could be placed on that and these could be incorporated into each future realease and you'd just have to post information stating your progress with each of our requests in the same way as you're planning to do with the blog. Lots of projects work this way. That can't be too much to request, either?

Look, it's this simple. You've asked for user's money, it's been given. And you're asking for money to continue to be given, but you have to give something back in terms of control. You can't expect to just carry on doing things the way you've done them, if that had been working you'd not have needed to, in essence, beg for our money. You may not like it, but by giving you money, we're effectively employing you to develop for us. We could quite easily club together and employ someone else or stop giving you money. You don't own pdaXrom, it's linux, it's opensource, it could be forked. Etc.

We are grateful that you developers have created this rom, so please don't take any offence over what I've just said because I'm just stating my views and offering you a warning based on other examples I've read from the linux world. But you need to show a little bit more gratitude towards us users for giving you our hard earnt money or you annoy a lot of people and they'll stop contributing and you'll be back where you started.

You've an opportunity here to create a great deal of enthusiasm and support and you're not capitalising on it.
allanjard
I do agree with Omro here - pdaXrom is an awesome rom, and you guys have done fantastic work on it. And given the responses in this thread many people (including myself) are willing to set up a monthly subscription donation, ie. the community would effectively be employing you full time. So its only fair that the money given goes into what is needed.

The whole point of a steering committee would be to act as a buffer between the developers and the community at large, so you don't have to deal with one or two people asking for certain games etc, the committee does. Like wise the committee could explain why the developers are doing certain things to the masses.

I think its an excellent idea to make pdaXrom an even better rom. Control of it certainly wouldn't be taken away from you, we'd just be able to help point you in the direction that would be beneficial to most people

Thanks
A
kopsis
I guess I'm in the minority here but nothing would cause me to give up on pdaXrom quicker than seeing it be run by a "committee". I've been an engineer for many years and I've seen over and over how "design by committee" produces consistantly poor quality. You want one tallented visionary in the driver's seat with the freedom to follow his or her vision. Not that user input is not important, but aside from voicing their desires, user's should have no "control" over core development.

Applications need to be secondary, Sash needs to stay focused on stabilizing and refining the Linux "core" within the ROM. Relatively speaking, anyone can port apps. Very few people are qualified to do the low-level nuts and bolts work. And all the great apps in the world won't help a bit if the core isn't stable, complete, and fast. Similarly, every engineer knows you stay focussed on *one* platform. When you've achieved the desired level of completeness and stability there, only then to you devote significant effort to migrating your stable baseline to other platforms.

What I've seen so far tells me that Sash clearly knows what he's doing. Donations should be thought of as just that ... not "buying shares in the pdaXrom company" so you can vote on its direction. Just my $0.02.
omro
QUOTE(kopsis @ Aug 18 2005, 01:37 AM)
I guess I'm in the minority here but nothing would cause me to give up on pdaXrom quicker than seeing it be run by a "committee". I've been an engineer for many years and I've seen over and over how "design by committee" produces consistantly poor quality. You want one tallented visionary in the driver's seat with the freedom to follow his or her vision. Not that user input is not important, but aside from voicing their desires, user's should have no "control" over core development.

Applications need to be secondary, Sash needs to stay focused on stabilizing and refining the Linux "core" within the ROM. Relatively speaking, anyone can port apps. Very few people are qualified to do the low-level nuts and bolts work. And all the great apps in the world won't help a bit if the core isn't stable, complete, and fast. Similarly, every engineer knows you stay focussed on *one* platform. When you've achieved the desired level of completeness and stability there, only then to you devote significant effort to migrating your stable baseline to other platforms.

What I've seen so far tells me that Sash clearly knows what he's doing. Donations should be thought of as just that ... not "buying shares in the pdaXrom company" so you can vote on its direction. Just my $0.02.
*


I don't think you entirely read what I wrote about my idea for what the committee would do. My intention wasn't to take over or interfere, but just to improve the user experience.

Also. They aren't asking for one off donations. And they aren't a charity. They're asking for continuous, monthly contributions. That's a totally different request. And as such demands a change in the way things are done. I don't wish to be rude, but if Sash want us to pay for him not to have to get a proper job, then surely he works for us? I'd love to be paid by people to just do exactly what I want without having to do anything but the things I want to do, but oddly enough I live in the real world. So if he wants our money, he's got to listen to those who pay him. No such thing as a free lunch and all that.

I don't mind a one off donation and I have provided one, because I think pdaXrom is great. I really do and you guys who have created this. You're awesome, I'm not knocking you. But if things stay as they are, I won't bother to contribute more because I'm not being listened to and I want to feel like my money is appreciated and making a difference.
ikm
There is no need for any kind of a commitee. An open market would be much better: people demand something and offer to pay some sum of money for it -- developers look if it suites them. If people want games, that would be games. In this case, if developers wouldn't be interested in compiling games, the people who wanted 'em might decide to forfeit the idea, or to raise the bounty for the task instead. And so on. The developers may also initiate the proccess -- by offering some feature and looking if it is worth doing, if there is an interest. That's how the world lives, most natural and efficient.

I understand that this would not guarantee a particular $500/mo, but that would be depending solely on the developers, so they would need to be doing the best -- and then they could acually get above the mentioned $500 barrier. This is most fair for both the users and developers -- what is paid is for actual work on the actual demanding things.
omro
QUOTE(ikm @ Aug 18 2005, 02:31 AM)
There is no need for any kind of a commitee. An open market would be much better: people demand something and offer to pay some sum of money for it -- developers look if it suites them. If people want games, that would be games. In this case, if developers wouldn't be interested in compiling games, the people who wanted 'em might decide to forfeit the idea, or to raise the bounty for the task instead. And so on. The developers may also initiate the proccess -- by offering some feature and looking if it is worth doing, if there is an interest. That's how the world lives, most natural and efficient.

I understand that this would not guarantee a particular $500/mo, but that would be depending solely on the developers, so they would need to be doing the best -- and then they could acually get above the mentioned $500 barrier. This is most fair for both the users and developers -- what is paid is for actual work on the actual demanding things.
*


My suggested method was an attempt as fairness, so that the developers get a monthly sum to develop the core as well as the user-centric side.

The bounty method deprives the developers of money to develop the core and opens up the money to other people. So the developers would be back to square one (penniless) and forced to attempt to claim the bounties faster than someone else in order to even have any money for core development.

If that's what it's going to take inorder to get what is wanted, who's in favour of with holding all future donations, drawing up a list of core things for a bounty process and then if the developers want our money, they can do what we ask of them? I really don't like this method, but if that's what it takes to be heard.
TheWalt
A few random thoughts from a newbie.

I bought a SL-C860 two weeks ago because I stumbled across this rom by accident and thought to myself "wow, this is exactally what I wanted my old pda (axim x30h) to do... work as a mini-laptop".

I tried the other roms just to get a fair comparison and although Cacko is a very nice PIM/PDA replacement it didn't have the 'mini-laptop' feel, thus RC10 is currently installed.

With the help of many users posting on these fourms I was able to get near everything I wanted up and running after only a few days, so cudos to the community. I have been very impressed and happy thus far.

Then I saw this post saying how the developer needed some donations to keep things going. Without hesitation I was going to send some money but didn't have my CC on me to setup an account so had to wait til later in the day.

After logging in I then started reading replys from people saying they would like more feedback and status updates if they were going to donate, which I agreed with, but also knew a improved web presence was in the works so not too concerned.

But then as I continued to read others started putting stipulations on their donations like their money had to be used for SL-C1000 / 3000 / 5500 development (which I don't have) and though " I don't want to give money to a project that doesn't effect my model anymore " so continued on.

Then others had restrictions of how their donations had to be used to make applications work with the rom. Again, puzzeled because all the tools you need to do that for yourself are provided, which is a GREAT thing. It was argued that some supporters may not have the knowledge needed to compile their own apps, and if this is true then pdaXrom is probably not your best rom choice (refer back to Cacko).

On top of that suggestions of committees and bounties... what for? pdaXrom is, as I've gotten the impression from reading many many posts, a rom replacement with a very nice operating system complete with development tools. Period. The goal is simple, continue to develop this base system while making it available on more hardware (1000/3000/5500/etc) and updating compatablilty with various hardware accessories (CF devices, USB, etc) on existing platforms (7x0,860,etc).

----

Some of the other ideas have valid points and of cousre I would like to see more applications just readily available, but that sounds like a TOTALLY different project to me from pdaXrom core, and maybe should be considered so. There seems to be enough passionate individuals here with the knowledge needed to set that up. Keep Laze and Sashz in the core development, which obviously they are great at, and fill in some of the blanks yourself... isn't that what opensource is all about?
ThirtyOne
TheWalt makes all very good points.

I suggested bounties as an additional process in addition to contributing to the core ROM.

I suggested it because as an open source developer I like bounties. it gives me an incentive but also a choice. I don't have to go for the bounty but if I do then I get the incentive. Or maybe someone else will and that is just as good. It doesn't put money in my pockets but it advances the software.

I also think that setting up a process where other developers (as you suggest) can fill in the blanks around the ROM would help stimulate the community (though as omro says it doesn't help Sash pay the bills).

For those of you who haven't maintained an open source project, you don't realize the constant barrage of requests. Some come on the forums or mailing lists but often they are just emails that say someone can't compile or ask if it is possible to add some feature. Many of these people never contribute and when you help them change the code half the time they go away and never even provide patches back. You need to have the flexibility to work on your own vision or else you just end up in support mode all the time.
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