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scoutme
Hi all.

I personally tried matchbox, xfce4, fwwm, kde and e17 on my zaurus.

I'd like to collect some users' experiences that may guide other users towards their best setup


We should focalize on:
1) memory usage comparison
2) cpu usage comparison
3) usability comparison - in terms of both quantity of features and quality

I found the default one being very stable, quite light in both cpu and memory usage and a little short of features; xfce4 looks as a good compromise between performance and features - also. it's very good with gtk and kdelibs apps. Kde is too heavy, and e17 more unstable and immature than light.

Can we make a comparison - with numbers and tests - between matchbox, fwwm and xfce4?
ZDevil
Not aware of cpu usage (and how it'll actually affect Z's performance in normal use) so can't say anything here. tongue.gif
Just some of my personal feelings:
Matchbox: Very good for beginners of pdaX thanks to its straightforward interface and handy panel (though not a task bar).
Xfce4: Fantastic appearance. But loading time is quite long (about 25 secs), memory usage seems ok without Rox pinboard; but with it feels a bit heavy. (I'm sure Chero will have a say here wink.gif ). Though the main reason why I do not stick with it is the hidden panel is too hard to raise.
Icewm: fast but I find the panel too small for my poor and aging eyes.
KDE: Really really want to try, but fear that it's too heavy and not fast enough -- grateful if any user can clarify this?
e17: Looks very promising and very very gorgeous, but still the panel cannot be hidden below the windows, as the screenshots seem to suggest?
WindowMaker: I'm most satisfied with this wm. It runs blazingly fast (load time in 3 seconds , which beats almost all wm, except tvm perhaps?) and has much more customizing options than other wms, but without sacrificing its intutive and user-friendly interface. The best thing is program can run truly fullscreen (over the panel/dock), even with the option to hide the title bar. Maximizing windows comes very handy in this wm. Works great with gtk apps. I also love the "Iconification Animation", in particular the Spinning/Twisting mode which looks very cool when seeing differerent program windows performing springboards... laugh.gif
adf
a couple of comments:

I obviously need to try windomaker on my Z. I didn't love it as a desktop wm a few years ago, But I've learned a bit and maybe it has too smile.gif

xfce really nice, really customizeable. Put the panel on top and the taskbar at the bottom-- much easier. I have problems with a periodically disappearing panel--not hidden, just gone. ANd I think Icewm is a trifle faster. both are best with rox (default from the feeds in icewm..needs configuring in xfce)

Icewm... what I use most
B_Lizzard
You guys should include information such as what kind of device you use, and maybe some "tests"... Such as the startup time, and whatever else...For the sake of completeness

Also, has anyone tested Enlightenment 16.7 or 16.6? I kinda like it, and I'm wondering about performance and general feel on the Z.

Post some reviews, boys!

Merry Xmas, everyone! smile.gif
scoutme
you speak about IceWM and WindowMaker.... what about fwwm? Similar? Same? Faster? Slower? Prettier?
DrWowe
I've used IceWM for years on my computers, but I don't think it's right for a PDA. I'm actualy pretty happy with the default matchbox config, except for a few irritants.

1) Windows frequenty come up with geometry that's too wide for 480x640. I want a feature that can force new windows to fit into the available screen space. This is my main complaint currently.

2) A "minimize all" shortcut would be nice.
SolarX
Personally I've been using IceWM for quite some time now, and it works for me. ZDevil: I don't see how you can find the panel too small, the way I have it setup, it's just as large as Matchbox.
I'm satisfied with the speed, though I don't have any reference to compare it to. It does feel at least as responsive as Matchbox to me. I'm not using any desktop with it though.
I also don't see how it wouldn't be "right for a pda". The only thing it really adds to Matchbox is a taskbar, there's nothing to get in the way otherwise.
I've attached 2 screenshots of how I have it set up. I've done some work on theming it pdaxrom-like, I don't really remember how much I've done and how much was default, but if there's an interest I'm willing to share it as a theme file.

As for my other experiences, I tried fluxbox, but it's just too small. Also, the extensive use of menus doesn't really work for me on a PDA. I've tried XFCE as well, but had some color issues. I might try again.
miskinis
Hi,

I have only toyed with e17 on the SL-6000 for a couple hours so far. Someone
mentioned that they could not disable some panel. If you go into the
modules menu, you can disable everything. I also believe the entire
startup time is less than 2 seconds. And, I tried the "moving layered
fog style background, and only got 2 frames per second, but it is still
cool. I even disabled all the modules, and just about everything else
running on the 6000, and could only achieve approx. 2 frames per
second. Both e17 and X are busy, but not consuming the full 100%
CPU. I think installing things to SD card might be causing me to
get such (bad?) performance numbers.

Also, as an experiment, I brought up just X (no WM) on a desktop machine,
and used e17 on the 6000 to manage a 1400x1050 screen, with the
fog desktop running, over an 802.11b link. I got approx. 30 frames
per second with the fog scrolling layered background running.

CORRECTION - I meant 1 frame every 30 seconds over the 802.11 link!

smile.gif

John
sashz
KDE 3.5 coming soon as server alive)
BarryW
QUOTE(sashz @ Dec 25 2005, 08:16 PM)
KDE 3.5 coming soon as server alive)
*



Wooooow! blink.gif
adf
QUOTE(sashz @ Dec 26 2005, 05:16 AM)
KDE 3.5 coming soon as server alive)
*

OOOOoooooooo AAAAAaaaaahhhhh!!


Will it work w/ qbedic? 3.4's qtlibs wouldn't let qbedic open.... Otherwise i'd have used it a lot more.
adf
nice icewm setup.

It is actually a little ironic... I regularly use xfce on my desktop, rarely use Icewm, frequently use kde. almost the opposite usage on my Z.. lotsa Ice, little bit o xfce, almost no kde.

As for mentioneing fvw, etc... Haven't tried them, should and will (when the server comes back up)
scoutme
QUOTE(sashz @ Dec 25 2005, 09:16 PM)
KDE 3.5 coming soon as server alive)
*




what about performance? have you tuned something in order to make it faster/lighter? It should me at least as fast as xfce4 to be usable, I fear
ZDevil
QUOTE(sashz @ Dec 26 2005, 07:16 AM)
KDE 3.5 coming soon as server alive)
*


That's the REAL thing!! cool.gif

Thanks for the details about icewm and en17. I just tried them very briefly without doing any in-depth fine-tuning. Of course the more choices the better. smile.gif
After all for me one of the great things that makes pdaX rock is being able to run the same wm as on desktops without so much compromise in performance, and this is also what makes Zaurii superior to all handhelds to date.
albertr
QUOTE(adf @ Dec 26 2005, 04:37 AM)
Will it work w/ qbedic?  3.4's qtlibs wouldn't let qbedic open....  Otherwise i'd have used it a lot more.
*


Sorry for offtopic, but what's exactly the problem with qbedic? I'm using it for a few months under pdaXrom rc11 ...

albertr@c1000:~$ ldd /usr/bin/qbedic
libqt-mt.so.3 => /usr/lib/qt/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 (0x4001e000)
libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 (0x406a1000)
libm.so.6 => /lib/libm.so.6 (0x40780000)
libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x4082f000)
libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x40840000)
libz.so.1 => /usr/lib/libz.so.1 (0x40962000)
libpng12.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpng12.so.0 (0x40979000)
libXrender.so.1 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrender.so.1 (0x409b5000)
libXrandr.so.2 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrandr.so.2 (0x409c4000)
libXcursor.so.1 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXcursor.so.1 (0x409cf000)
libXft.so.2 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so.2 (0x409df000)
libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0x409f7000)
libfontconfig.so.1 => /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x40a6a000)
libXext.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x40a9a000)
libX11.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x40ab0000)
libSM.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x40b76000)
libICE.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x40b86000)
libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x40ba3000)
libpthread.so.0 => /lib/libpthread.so.0 (0x40bad000)
/lib/ld-linux.so.2 => /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40000000)
libexpat.so.0 => /usr/lib/libexpat.so.0 (0x40bcc000)
albertr@c1000:~$

-albertr
ZDevil
It will be perfect if this can be included into the KDE 3.5 package for pdaX: cool.gif cool.gif

http://basket.kde.org/
pyknite
juste one question: how do you intstall those window manager??

is there any ipkg on pdaxrom's feed?

thx
ZDevil
Yes, many of them are already available as ipk. They are either in the feeds or in this forum (not very hard to search actually). Have fun. smile.gif
pyknite
QUOTE(ZDevil @ Dec 26 2005, 02:37 PM)
Yes, many of them are already available as ipk.  They are either in the feeds or in this forum (not very hard to search actually).  Have fun.  smile.gif
*



oki thx... and there is some "hard" manipulation to make or just install the ipk and select the windows manager on login screen??

++
ZDevil
QUOTE(pyknite @ Dec 27 2005, 01:11 PM)
QUOTE(ZDevil @ Dec 26 2005, 02:37 PM)
Yes, many of them are already available as ipk.  They are either in the feeds or in this forum (not very hard to search actually).  Have fun.  smile.gif
*



oki thx... and there is some "hard" manipulation to make or just install the ipk and select the windows manager on login screen??

++
*



You can simply take one flavor as a starting point, which would give you an idea of how a wm works (such as editing the startup scripts and customizing the desktop). Highly recommended is Xfce4 and Chero has written a terrrific user guide here:
http://users.telenet.be/zaurususer/Chero/xfce4-rox-howto/

For me I'm using WindowMaker, and iamphet has also done a fantastic job to compile it with some valuable information here: http://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16370&st=0

Every user has a different taste so having more choices is always a nice thing. smile.gif
pyknite
thx a lot for all information wink.gif
anunakin
Any ipks for KDE 3.5?
wink.gif
pyknite
QUOTE(anunakin @ Dec 27 2005, 04:15 AM)
Any ipks for KDE 3.5?
wink.gif
*



I have seen a thread yesterday about kde... I know that sashz is porting kde for pdaxrom...
adf
QUOTE(albertr @ Dec 26 2005, 01:18 PM)
QUOTE(adf @ Dec 26 2005, 04:37 AM)
Will it work w/ qbedic?  3.4's qtlibs wouldn't let qbedic open....  Otherwise i'd have used it a lot more.
*


Sorry for offtopic, but what's exactly the problem with qbedic? I'm using it for a few months under pdaXrom rc11 ...

albertr@c1000:~$ ldd /usr/bin/qbedic
libqt-mt.so.3 => /usr/lib/qt/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 (0x4001e000)
libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 (0x406a1000)
libm.so.6 => /lib/libm.so.6 (0x40780000)
libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x4082f000)
libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x40840000)
libz.so.1 => /usr/lib/libz.so.1 (0x40962000)
libpng12.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpng12.so.0 (0x40979000)
libXrender.so.1 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrender.so.1 (0x409b5000)
libXrandr.so.2 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrandr.so.2 (0x409c4000)
libXcursor.so.1 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXcursor.so.1 (0x409cf000)
libXft.so.2 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so.2 (0x409df000)
libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0x409f7000)
libfontconfig.so.1 => /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x40a6a000)
libXext.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x40a9a000)
libX11.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x40ab0000)
libSM.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x40b76000)
libICE.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x40b86000)
libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x40ba3000)
libpthread.so.0 => /lib/libpthread.so.0 (0x40bad000)
/lib/ld-linux.so.2 => /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40000000)
libexpat.so.0 => /usr/lib/libexpat.so.0 (0x40bcc000)
albertr@c1000:~$

-albertr
*


My experience had been that when I load kde, it changes which qt libs are loaded.. and the ones in kde 3.4 wouldn't run qbedic. I didn't look at it too much... just dropped kde, and all is well.
adf
QUOTE(ZDevil @ Dec 26 2005, 06:41 PM)
It will be perfect if this can be included into the KDE 3.5 package for pdaX:  cool.gif  cool.gif

http://basket.kde.org/
*

That could be really amazing. Off to try it on my desktop smile.gif
ZDevil
KDE 3.5 is in the new 1.1.0 Beta feeds now! Awesome. cool.gif
anunakin
LOL! I go try this!
ZDevil
QUOTE(adf @ Dec 28 2005, 11:18 PM)
QUOTE(ZDevil @ Dec 26 2005, 06:41 PM)
It will be perfect if this can be included into the KDE 3.5 package for pdaX:  cool.gif  cool.gif

http://basket.kde.org/
*

That could be really amazing. Off to try it on my desktop smile.gif
*



Here are three video demos from the official site:
http://basket.kde.org/developement/basket_mic_video2.mpeg
http://basket.kde.org/developement/basket_mic_video1.mpeg
http://basket.kde.org/demo/demo-basket-fr.mpeg

It will the super killer app if it can run smoothly on Z (and with KDE 3.5)! cool.gif
Chero
About KDE 3.5: stuck after suspend/resume on my Z. My xfce config is broken after using KDE. It looks nice on the other hand, maybe I'll have to flash and start from a clean system again.
e17 : fun, fast, nice. Needs some tweaking and development to become the one.
matchbox : it comes with the rom, so it will probably never be anybody's favourite. We want to tweak and change our Z's, don't we.
xfce: my favourite, as most people already knew. What I don't like is the "panel always on top" (it wasn't this way in 4.0.6, where it could behave as a normal window). Some people use autohide, but I don't feel comfortable with it while using a stylus. I mapped full-screen-mode to alt-f, this is even better because it hides borders and window-title-bars as well.
windowmanager : never tried, I will soon.
icewm : should come with more eyecandy out of the box. I've seen great things with this one, but haven't got the patience to figure out how to set it up the way I've seen it.
fvwm : great support on pdaX, reminds me of my hp-9000 days (HP-UX) in the early 90ties. I kinda love it.
fluxbox/blackbox : haven't really tried.

About speed : besides starting time they all respond more or less the same (except KDE, which is a bit heavy). I don't shut down, restart my wm very often, so ...
About memory : I use 64/128Mb swap, never had memory troubles.

The good thing : choice !!!!
Don't look at numbers, pick the one you like ! cool.gif

Have fun wink.gif
Chero.
Chero
QUOTE(Chero @ Dec 29 2005, 08:04 PM)
About KDE 3.5: stuck after suspend/resume on my Z. My xfce config is broken after using KDE. It looks nice on the other hand, maybe I'll have to flash and start from a clean system again.
*


Flashed beta 1, runs smoothly now!
Nice stuff.

Happy new year,
Have fun,
Chero.
ZDevil
Hey, found an interesting page about benchmarking different wms. Check it out:

http://www.rasterman.com/index.php?page=News

What would be the way to do a similar thing on Z? rolleyes.gif
adf
QUOTE(ZDevil @ Jan 6 2006, 10:49 AM)
Hey, found an interesting page about benchmarking different wms.  Check it out:

http://www.rasterman.com/index.php?page=News

What would be the way to do a similar thing on Z?  rolleyes.gif
*


IUt certainly makes fvwm more interesting to me suddenly smile.gif
scoutme
to me too....
benplaut
what, am i the only creative one here?! tongue.gif

xfce-panel with openbox and matchbox-desktop. really fast, and the panel rocks smile.gif (fitt's law means nothing on a Z... and that's my main complaint about xfce)
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