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Da_Blitz
well there are always usb to ethernet adaptors, and with a usb hub you could have 4 smile.gif

haha RAID on SD, sounds good still in 2 minds about the finger print reader, it dosent really bring any security to the device like the smartcard does. but at the moment its out as i cant find a supplier

only reason i like it is because even on my Z i used very long passwords (23 chars or more) and its a pain to type.

there will be a slot for a CF card but i am tempted to make it cf on ata rather than apure CF card so that if you wanted a larger model and you had room then you could attach an ipod drive to the thing. i need to work out the space allocation first
cal
How thin can this hardware be made? The thickness of my Z has always been the thing that bugs me the most. A clamshell device that is long, narrow and thin, would have a big enough screen and keyboard for normal use, and still fit in a jacket or back pocket.
Da_Blitz
well it wont be "razar" thin, i hate that type of desgin, in fact i felt the Z was a good thickness

at the moment with the case design i have in mind it would be as thick as the keyboard part of the c3000 with the keyboard indented (grips on sides of keyboards)

anyway you can chose which case you want, but you might have to use a smaller battery
LordVan
I want one of those (even if it's not in a case to start with as i like to fiddle with new gadgets (and maybe do some kernel hacking - since i don't have any of the tools (oszilloscope, logic analyzer,..) to do anything on the hardware myself really.

will there be a possibility of getting one (with or without case) early on to do testing and stuff?
Da_Blitz
yeah there is actually, it will be beta but basically i will have the plans on the internat as well as where to order the board from, you send them the design and they send you a populated board

for the dev model not everything has to be soldered on, there is also the posability of a cheap dev board that is nothing but RAM and the CPU (image is downloaded over a parrelel port jtag cabel or usb aand exectues a linux kernel with ramdisk from there for testing, great idea for a cluster of these (my compile farm in the futre))
Ragnorok
- Your OpenPDA link says "FORBIDDEN" on April 5, Da_Blitz. I presume any data on getting a dev system together will appear there?
- I'd prefer an Ethernet port. My experience is that "networking" with USB does little more than complicate an incredibly simple and reliable system. "Progress", I guess...
Da_Blitz
i dont think a full sized ethernet port is a good size for this thing sad.gif

i know it sasys forbidden,im still trying to get the site set up, dont want to use apache or any form of dynamic page generation where posible however i will have to make an exception for the wiki and webmail sad.gif but i might move that to another host

i have the basis for a webpage generation system that uses make to build the entire site when somthing is updated, i have my resons for staying static.

as for the power supply, reson its not up is its really a monolithic chip rather than several seperate chips so there is no real point in putting it up
Ragnorok
- Unfortunate, the poor Ethernet. It's no larger than USB A, but that's a lot of area compared to mini-A, I guess. (sniffle) I was so hoping to have real networking. USB networking is "real" about like Winbloze is a "real" OS.
speculatrix
QUOTE(Da_Blitz @ Apr 9 2007, 11:59 AM)
i dont think a full sized ethernet port is a good size for this thing
*


I think that a regular cat5 ether 10/100(/1000 would be nice) is essential. I would rather than one less USB socket if needed to make room.
Da_Blitz
actually you might want to know there is an actual product called "winbloze", it was an excellent parody of windows and its users about 7 years age if my mem dosent need to be fsck'd wink.gif

the one advantage of usb ethernet is it can be faster than ethernet, however YMMV

it has USB host so why not stick a gigabit USB2.0 ethernet adaptor in the port wink.gif
speculatrix
giga ether full duplex is going to be somewhat faster than even usb2.0 full speed (480 mega bits/sec); it's a pity it can't be provided on the CPU.
Da_Blitz
true but my point is why stick with 100mbps when yu can potentially get up to 400mbps half duplex, how you split it is up to you (i mean how many operations these days are 50/50 apart from p2p)

i have to credit the NSLU guys with this one, there are a couple of people doing it to get bettre than 10MB/s transfer on the slugs, using a gigabit adaptor in a usb2.0 port gives you up to around 35MB/s if you are lucky (ie low protocol overhead)
ZTwinsen
Hi everyone,

As u seen, I am new in here. When I dug the old posts, I am quite confuse for the spec of pocketpengium and hence I summarize it and ask for validation:

LCD: 5" 16(15?):9 transflextive (touchscreen?) slide-like, not tweak model like Cxx00
keyboard: prison5-like
USB: 2 full size full power host-client usb port
SD: 2 SDIO
CF: no
ethernet: use usb-ethernet
audio: usb-audio
CPU: freescale
Ram: 128Mb
Storage: ??
power: ~3.xV
Battery: Nokia battery put into serial for swapping
shape: clame shell like, 2 parts link by connector.. Upper part only contain a CPU, Ram, LCD and a battery. THe lower part contains I/O, keyboard and batteries.
built-in wifi, bluetooth, camera

Just let you know My personal pocketpengium usage objective:
1) Notetaking (for science classes which need to draw a lot charts and diagrams)
2) ebook reader for a long while
3) programming and research platform
4) (VNC terminal to) my desktop ^^
5) simple PIM stuff
6) dictionary
7) Handy Calc
8) never mp3 player and phone, but may be GSM
So power is very important for me....

I also have some suggestions and questions too,. Since the topic are board, I don't seperate them into different thread which is hard to trace. BTW, I don't have electronic background and low level background, plz don't bind if I raise some stupid idea. :)>



1) If we have so much built-in thing, can we cut the power for them to safe the power? I heard about the Cxx00's wifi of CF is a power monster.
2) Can the device set to "bypass" the battery when charger is used so the batteries won't hurt?
3) Is there anyway to use PSP's 5V external batteries? Those batteries are really cheap now....
4) I suggest to have 1 or 2 SOny Clie's "jog dial" like "gear"? It sounds crazy, but it is very useful for small screen device, especially for tasks like note-taking, drawing and web browsing.
5) If someone still think keyboard is too small, maybe we can try the IBM thinkpad's butterfly like keyboard.
6) But if we don't use cxx00 size keyboard, are there anyway to use keyboard without a table? It would be cool to play w/ my pocketpengium in a long line or inside public transport and watch the others carry a heavy M$ laptop which ran out of power.

Sorry for my long post :)>

Finally, I am not pushing, but when is the pocketpengium device come out?? I want it deadly........ What about this summer??
Da_Blitz
thans for your usage case, you have no idea how handy that is to have, i mostly get one or two "i do this or that" or i dont like that because i wont use it, having a usage case allows me too chose features and have justification behind this

now to answer your questions
(1) is a kernel thing, wifi has been and always be a power hog unless you tune the power settings (at the cost of responisvness and latencey, which is fine for teh web but not as good for ssh)
(2) yes, however keep in mind this can be dangerous if you pull teh plug and you get a 20ms power out, hence there is a mini backup reserve. not that you need to know or care about it but i think its worth putting here
(3) Perhaps, depends on avalability and sizing, this thing dosent even have a set case
(4) I like jog dials but i prefer a proper wheel, think htc hermes or trinity (i have both) its like a jog dial but keeps turning, great for mp3s and afaik i planned to have 2 already
(5) links, i have propsed several keyboard designs but anything other than the cxx00 tends to be rowned upon, my fav was a fold in half one that was a keying/corded keyboard when folded up. however most people dont want to learn a new keyboard layout.

i personally felt that for a Z a cordded keyboard would be nearly as fast as it allows you t better maintain a grip on the thing and means less odd keyboard combos (ctrl+c, which i use all the time)

i do have to keep telling myself that others are not willing to give some wierd things a go, i try everthing once (typing this on dvorak where i went cold turkey) and not everyone has a heavily modified keyboard layout (all my Fxx buttons are bounde to common funcitons)

(6) well my summer is in december, the current holdup is no one badgering me about it and no one technical to make a point or two and lend a bit of a hand (eg, i know you havent looked at ityet but have you looked at chip yxv for function x)

i have an idea of nearly every chip i need just not which exact chip yet, the only ones really remainng are dedicated chips for the rf radio and misc fetaures.

so the best way to join the project and help out is to annoy me as much as possible on msn or by email (perhaps i sholud set up a mailing list), look at chips that sound like they should do the job (note no electrical experince required, i just need sugestions of chips that sound like they might work) or find me some egineers woh want a PDA they built themselves

ooh and i am looking for software guys or anyone who have some crazy UI ideas or dreams, i have a few bizare ideas for things running in the background to improve the uesr experince (syncing and such)

and if you have read some of my posts and seen the time stamps then you would know your post is mearly "introductionary" in length and my spelling sucks wink.gif
Ragnorok
QUOTE(Da_Blitz @ Apr 12 2007, 10:40 AM)
actually you might want to know there is an actual product called "winbloze", it was an excellent parody of windows and its users about 7 years age if my mem dosent need to be fsck'd ;)


- Funny. I wonder how long it took the "real" Winbloze to sue them? (wry grin)

QUOTE
the one advantage of usb ethernet is it can be faster than ethernet, however YMMV

it has USB host so why not stick a gigabit USB2.0 ethernet adaptor in the port ;)
*


- As speculatrix mentions, USB isn't faster than gigabit, it's just faster than 100Mb. Whoopie. So is Firewire, whose latest incarnation is also faster than the latest USB, just like the first incarnation was. So why not put Firewire in because it's faster? But faster isn't the point.

- The point is that Ethernet is the world-wide networking standard. USB is unfortunately now the standard for peripherals, but it is not routable. Just because someone's made a do-dad to allow USB to connect to Ethernet and pretend to be routable doesn't mean that solution is desirable. It just means it works. If USB were really faster or better for networking in any manner what-so-ever, the world would have migrated to it from Ethernet. But the world hasn't. Neither should the Pocket Penguin.

- On a personal note, I don't want to have to carry any more dongles around with me than I have to, or have them hanging off the back of the Z like some goiter. I would prefer that my pocket Linux workstation be able to natively connect to a real network like a real workstation. Wifi is not secure enough to be trusted as the only Ethernet-like network connection. A wire is essential, and USB faking Ethernet is not.

- You mileage may vary, but that's my half-nybble, such as it is.
Da_Blitz
all good points however the one that kill it for me is the crazy power usage of gigabit chips and the reqired isolation transformers (bulky)
charlie
Much as I love reading about this potential device and I would seriously think about buying one as soon as there is a stable operating system.

I want to know, are we any closer to building one than when this thread started in 7/6 (if you're american 6/7)?

Chas
Da_Blitz
i wish i wolud staop hearing about it and had a finished product, the only reason there isnt one is that i have been very easy to distract for about a year now (lots of stuff going on) and it becomes hard to keep motivated about somthnig for this long esp. when there is no input

i will seee what i can do about wiring up the power planes tommorrow, that should be a major win
Ragnorok
- I'm not advocating using gigabit. I'm advocating having an Ethernet port on the Pocket Penguin at whatever speed the battery can handle. I'd rather have Ethernet at 1Mbit than have to rely solely on USB "networking" at any speed. I'd be happy to have a PP either way, but I'd prefer if it had Ethernet.

- Everyone has other obligations. Far as I'm concerned the fervor has died down and now we're into the long slog. No biggie for me. I've been in the new house eight months and haven't set up the cross-dev workstation yet. I bet if someone told you, Da_Blitz, they had an OS ready and needed a development system to start working on it, you'd move along faster. (shrug) I don't see that OS manifesting itself, either. The Pocket Penguin will get done, or it won't, and either way I expect we'll enjoy ourselves, or we wouldn't even consider building it.
speculatrix
I agree with Ragnarok. If the hardware exists and is well documented, the programmers will come. The forums are full of clever people who would buy up the heir to the zaurus throne, it just needs to be a worthy contender!

I think even a part working prototype would really get people's appetite going, but so far, sorry to say, we've had a lot of buzz, many ideas for features, but not even a parts manifest or even a prototype PCB on its way.

p.s. I think if you got a part working board with the promise of a free final sample, you'd get one or more of the Angstrom people working on it - they couldn't resist the challenge.
Da_Blitz
QUOTE
p.s. I think if you got a part working board with the promise of a free final sample, you'd get one or more of the Angstrom people working on it - they couldn't resist the challenge


you saw right through me, actually i was hoping to get a cut down board out the door first that could connect to a backplane. with just ram on board with the CPU and use the usb bootloader to load the image

would make a nice small cluster for some services i want to run (virtualisation only goes so far)

oh well just need to knuckle down and do it, just keep on bugging me here and on IM
speculatrix
QUOTE(Da_Blitz @ May 22 2007, 10:26 AM)
QUOTE
p.s. I think if you got a part working board with the promise of a free final sample, you'd get one or more of the Angstrom people working on it - they couldn't resist the challenge


you saw right through me, actually i was hoping to get a cut down board out the door first that could connect to a backplane. with just ram on board with the CPU and use the usb bootloader to load the image

would make a nice small cluster for some services i want to run (virtualisation only goes so far)

oh well just need to knuckle down and do it, just keep on bugging me here and on IM
*



absolutely minimal necessary circuit board to get started:
* CPU (it's quite useful)
* RAM
* a boot-strap NOR flash to boot from USB,MMC/SC
* USB slave

almost a necessity:
* on MMC/SD socket
* USB host


I'd guess the keyboard would be a usb device? I've been looking around for a tiny usb keyboard and there's nothing to match the zauruses - they're all either mini laptop sized or thumboards, nothing in the middle.
Da_Blitz
keyboard was gioing to use the dedicated keyboard handeling logic with keyscanning and such.

as i said you dont need flash to boot the thing, the device can download a kernerl and initrd into ram over usb client (built in bootloader over USB, no external device required)

nice thing about the freescale chip is that it can boot off of NAND flash, so we only need one chip for teh entire thing and we can use the cheap stuff
Ragnorok
QUOTE
connect to a backplane

- What backplane would that be? PCI slot? S100? (grin) Or something proprietary? Just curious how this will all shake out ... if it's booting over USB it doesn't seem like it would need much a "backplane", per se.

QUOTE
keyboard was gioing to use the dedicated keyboard handeling logic with keyscanning and such.

- Is this a normal keyboard, or a "custom" scanned keyboard like the Z has? Or something I'm not thinking of? Again, just curious how this "bare-bones" system will work. For instance, if I had one, how would I interface to my wintel (even if that wintel happens to be running linux) boxen to start developing for it?
speculatrix
QUOTE(Da_Blitz @ May 24 2007, 10:42 AM)
keyboard was gioing to use the dedicated keyboard handeling logic with keyscanning and such.
*


wouldn't it be better to keep as many general purpose I/Os free as possible, can be used for bit-bashing serial and parallel ports, I2C, A2D converters...
Da_Blitz
using the keyboard scaning logic makes it eaiser to go to low power mode, sure the usb spec can handel it but turning off the USB logic in suspend means greater power saving

as i see it there will be a power button for turnig on the device initially (or perhapes power on when power is applied) and let any keypless wake from suspend

however a dedicated usb device does allow for some wierd posabilities, for example using the usb "bridge" feature to connect the usb keyboard directtly to a host computer

if i remeber correctly there should be 24 gpio's free if i use the keyboard handeling stuff

as for the "backplane" idea, usb is fine for loading the firmware and you could use it for comms but i had a better idea in mind

make a pcb with some flash, ram, a fpga, an ethernet port and multiple controlable powerdomains on it with several PCI connectors, then make stripped down cards with the cpu/ram/fpga combo on it. basically you can swtich power to any slot on and off, allows hotpluing of cpu cards (usb handels detection) and use a fpga to implement a layer 1 and perhaps 2 OSI comms model. eg 32bit DR @ 133Mhz (233Mhz effective) the fpgas have this logic built in to talk to ddr ram but it would make for a nice way for these things to talk

its a cluster in a box of sorts. but its a better way of giving these things gigabyte comms in some ways (or @ 64bit, 400Mhz you get 3.2GB) you mem map it as sram and you get low latency comms between cards with enough speed to make rebote hardware (in this case hardware not attached to the chip) appear as local, which is my goal as well as some cluster and load balence stuff. its cheap wink.gif

as for the actual bus, could be wishbone, wont be pci but i would rather make it seems like an ethernet card with RDMA capabilities and some ultra heavy offloading capabilites (eg scatter grab and assembley of packtets done by the card instead of the kernel)

but its a fpga so chuck whatever you want in there, and wihle your at it you could add a cryto offload egine in the spare space

lets just say i have refound my intrest in the project as well as finding a way that this design may be useful to more people
Ragnorok
- "Cluster in a box" sounds nice, but that seems like it'll be a bit of overkill for a proto system to slap an OS on for testing. (crinkly grin) If they are that low latency we should make a "hypercube" out of them and market the whole thing as an affordable Grid computer. "Yes sir, I know the CPUs are slow, but there are hundreds in this one suitcase-sized box. Your brain switches at 1Khz and look what it does. Throughput on this will knock your socks off."
- But I digress.
- Let's say hypothetically I decide to try to port an OS to this beast. What would I expect to receive as a prototype and how would I interface to it? Pretend I have a pretty decent familiarity with programming in C/C++ and know hardware well enough, but haven't designed squat with electronics for 20 years so my understanding is almost hopelessly out of date. Would this be one board and an USB connector to load the firmware? Something else? If it's just a CPU board how does one interface to it for "keyboard" and "display" to see it do something?
- Or am I just going off on a tangent? (shrug)
Da_Blitz
you would get a pcb with a cpu and 64MB of ram, ram size may change but for the dev version i doth think there is needs for alot

it would have a pinout for a usb connector but wuold be fitted with a edged card like the PCi socket, so you can solder to that or plug it into a back board

there would most likly be a fpga on board for a bit of fun and IO stuff. and thier would be a serial line as well

the hope is that it would all plug into a backboard and they would all have an ethernet equivelent connection between each other and nfs thier root fs off node 0, all force fed over the devices usb client port, if you wanted to run it without a back board then you lose the network connection and do everything over usb, includhing loading firmware

so load firmware then move to usb-net in the downloaded (into ram) rom
Ragnorok
- Cool. What about keyboard emulation and such? If the system should boot and load drivers how will the dev board do that? Or will it simply not do that initially to get the basic OS whipped up and bootable? If it doesn't worry about trivialities like keyboard and display initially, what about later? All these devices are supposed to be part of the final unit, but none will be on the prototype board. Will those be added later, somehow, then the drivers bolted on then?
- I presume this CPU board would be a precusor to the bona-fide Pocket Penquin. Perhaps that's off the mark and you're concentrating more on "blades" than on the PPC itself?

EDIT:
- Just read up on FPGAs. Wowzers!! Are we using a small one glue, or is this thing going to be built from heuristic hardware?? (wolfish grin)
Da_Blitz
I am concentrating on the blades more, they are the base for the other designs i have but i was betting on a device comming out that would match my needs or wants closly, and it was anounced today smile.gif(http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/14/compal-showcases-prototype-umpc-running-windows-ce/ http://translate.google.com/translate?u=ht...language_tools)

time will tell if it makes it to market but i have a feeling it will, but i also feel they will shave the ram down a bit and make the case nicer (in black please: http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&ie...language_tools)

and it supports USB host ( http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&ie.../language_tools , look at the specs)

i was thinknig about a spartan 3, you can get some heafty devices in that range in many diffrent price rages that are pin for pin compatible

for anyone else reading this, look up what a fpga does, i can give you a brief but its mind blowing stuff.

essentially its the equivelent of what software is to a cpu only for hardware. its dynamically reconfigurable hradware that can one seccond be a tv tunner, the next a distributed key cracker and the next a PC. and they are MASSIVLY parrelel, one of these doing an optimised fast furior transform is over 50x faster than the best x86 computer you can put together

x86 can only exectue one stage at a time of the fft, this thing can do all stages in parrelel (so around 2048 operations in parrelel per clock)
Ragnorok
QUOTE
device comming out that would match my needs or wants closly
- Interesting do-dad, but I missing what the CPU speed is, though 256MB RAM looks nice. It also only has a single micro-SD slot and no hard drive; the former (currently) doesn't support as much storage as full SD nor does it have peripheral capability, but that may not be an issue with WiFi & BT built-in. The latter is more of a restriction imho because any "full" Linux will run better with swap than without it. Even pdaXrom runs faster and is happier with the hard drive in a 3200 compared to no drive/swap on a 1000, based on how T3_slider says it runs on his Z and how mind-numbingly slow it is on mine.
QUOTE
i was thinknig about a spartan 3
- ???
Da_Blitz
spartan 3 is a xilinx fpga, has small caches of ram and some embedded logic in it. on the pda design i would use a cpld as i wouldnt need the higher logic fuctions, only things like adress decoding (CPLD's are lower power but much simpler devices, you couldnt cram a uP in a cpld)

still undecided, i have a couple of things happening all at once that are related to this but i should have had a design by now. i think the one thing that has held me back is trying to satisfy everyone. i should just skim the features to what i want, add in anything else i can and run with it.

one of my "wants" however is a profesinal looking case
Ragnorok
- I hear ya. I finally lost Hiroshi and ordered an UMID BZ to replace it, so I'm Z-less until further notice. There it is...
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