Hi,
I just today found the Asus R2H UPMC which wasn't mentioned here so far (at least I could not find a note) and could be a great SimPAD replacement!

Amongst its features:
* Intel Celeron M 900MHz
* WinXP Tablet (OEM) installed - but installing Linux is possible: http://www.xs4all.nl/~sozonko/asus_r2h_howto/
* 7'' Touch 480x800
* 768 MB RAM
* 60 GB HDD
* builtin GPS
* builtin Bluetooth and 802.11 b/g
* 1.3 Mpx camera
* SD port
* USB ports
* separate car charger available
* separate DVD drive available

And the IMHO good thing - it is already available since October or so. Price might be beyond what many of us can spend but appears reasonable compared to a Zaurus C3200 and real Tablet PCs: approx. 999 EUR

Here one of several reviews I have found:

http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12712
http://onlyumpc.com/news/asus-r2h-detailed-review
http://www.umpcportal.com/products/product.php?id=9
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/handhelds/0,39029444,49256657,00.htm
http://www.tinyscreenfuls.com/2006/11/asus...ith-162-photos/

Most reviews find that the system is quite slow and attribute that to the 900MHz CPU. But others point out that the WinXP installation is overloaded and contains all optional features. After thinning out it is much faster.

And, compared to a Zaurus it is of course thicker, larger and much heavier (900g). Battery operation time appears to be some 2-4 hours.

So, is there someone here on this list who already owns one?

-- hns

I saw it selling for EUR 7xx a few months ago.
Still i'd have a hard time using a pure tablet device because i don't think i can do without keyboard ...
To me virtual keyboard is inherently crap compared to a physical one.

Really? I can't find any offer and indication. But there have been reports of an initial 512MB and 40GB version. Or you remember a different device.

Completely agree.

1. But - I think there is also a foldable USB keyboard accessory.
2. And, the SIMpad also has no keyboard.
3. And it has Bluetooth - maybe a Bluetooth keyboard works as well.
4. And finally, with a 7'' display I could imagine a quite good operation with a virtual keyboard. It is more a software issue then. Linux should make it possible...

-- hns

I agree with ZDevil - no keyboard not interested.
It is amazing how much crap is being released these days - all kinds of devices in all kinds of shapes, colors, etc but no one is willing to release that one thing so many want which is basically oqo size and features in clam format (ok maybe with better battery and less heat but for the most part everything else is there - enough power, memory, linux possible, keyboard, connectivity..).
And no, first release of flipstart is not it either.

Basically, I agree with you. But again, the SIMpad also has no keyboard...

Personally I like my C3200 exactly because it has a well designed and really useable keyboard in its small size that it fits into small pockets. On the other hand, if there is no more Zaurus in some time, what should I do?

Well, a new device should be much better from feature set than a Zaurus.

400MHz -> 900 MHz
64MB RAM -> 768 MB RAM (that is 12 times!)
6GB HDD -> 60 GB HDD (also 10 times!)
480x640px -> 480x800px (approx. 125%)
ext. WLAN/BT CF -> both integrated
no VGA -> VGA output
no GPS -> integrated GPS
USB 1.x -> USB 2.0
SD <-> SD
Linux 2.4.x -> Linux 2.6.x (installable)

If I compare so far and learn that it costs approx. 150%-200% of a C3x00, I would be crazy not to be interested. Well, I see the drawbacks:

QWERTY -> virtual keyboard (but that is something we can work to improve! we are a Open Software Community!)
Clamshell -> no clamshell (screen protection?)
CF -> no CF (but for what do I need it any more?)
4' -> 7' (too large for a pocket device but much smaller than my MacBook)
280g -> 800g (quite heavy but much less than my MacBook)

But does that count that much?

That makes me a little worried. Sounds to me like you have NOT visited the reviews and just made a very general statement and wipe away something that could be interesting on the second look.

It is not my intention to convince anybody here - I don't have this device either. I am just interested in getting opinions from real owners.

-- hns

Ah, I forgot to comment that - the new OQO 2 is now available at 1600$... Thats way too much for adding a QWERT keyboard...

-- hns

Overall, I agree that it's a very nice feature set. But:

The recent Zaurus models are USB 2.0, they just don't run at it at high speed.

And we do have a 2.6 kernel in the works now. And it sounds like a usable release will be made available very soon.

Personally, I got by fairly well with a virtual keyboard in the past, but I definitely prefer a "hard" keyboard. And one of the reasons that I didn't complain about the virtual keyboard was that the device was smaller and lighter than what I have now. My C1000 pushes the limits of what is pocket-sized, in my opinion, and for something that is definitely not pocket-sized, I would definitely want a real keyboard.

Isn't it just USB1.1?



One crucial thing missing in virtual keyboard: the tactile feel. You simply don't "feel" that you are typing but touching a flat, slippery surface. It would be a very big surprise to me if a typist thinks the other way round.
That's also what iPhone is missing too. SJ's argument against keyboard is simply flawed.The Em ONE or the HTC design is the way to go. Of course Z too if the line is not dead yet ...
Working with an extra portable keyboard sounds like a feasible solution. But it comes with a serious tradeoff: you can't put all your portable setup in one pocket. Rather you'll need several, or simply throw them into a backpack. And you can only type in a very flat surface with a comfortable height, just like using laptops and PCs. And once the external keyboard is in operation the setup is no longer that "mobile". After all the very basic design concept of a built in keyboard is you can start typing instantly on the fly. Sorry maybe i am just talking common sense here.

I believe USB 2.0 uses a different protocol, or something like that. Part of my point (which I should have stated explicitly) is that USB 2.0 does not mean high speed. A friend of mine recently was pulling his hair out trying to understand some quirks with his new (and very cheap) motherboard. It was USB 2.0, but the onboard ports only run at full speed (12Mbps).


I was actually pretty proficient with tapping on a virtual keyboard, and I didn't really need tactile feedback because I was tapping hard enough that I knew my taps were being registered. At the time, I was using a stylus with a spring-loaded tip so I could tap fairly aggressively and know that I wasn't damaging the touchscreen.

BTW, if anyone knows where I can find a similar stylus for the Zaurus, I'd be very appreciative.

I bet it'd be a different story if I keep tapping the screen for 30 minutes ... though a short burst might be fine.

I'm going to weigh into this debate with the old Newton axiom - "What about Handwriting Recognition?"

Yes - a keyboard is a must for "vast" data entry, but these UMPC thingies are supported by Mico$oft and do have very good HRW engines to boot. They also have the size to actually write on them with comfort and accuracy.

As for text entry - then a paired Bluetooth keyboard should work very well.

Cheers,
AdamD

well if Handwritning requires running windows, then I am not interested
I thought there were decent linux handwriting apps, though?
In my case, my handwriting is sloppy. slowing down to make recognition software happy is more annoying than the virtual keyboard.

I really think the Z is a nice size and setup. Some future model with vga or better out, BT/GPS/GPRS/(other wiresless phone data connection)/wifi a,b,g,n, faster proc, more ram and bigger storage would suit me very very well. For now, my 3100 does what I ask of it.

Strange assumption...

If that were true, the Newton would have to run Windows and would have had to be invented by MS - argggghh... How can you even think of?



Yes, AFAIK, there are some (e.g. Xstroke http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix03/tech...ml/xstroke.html ). And if they are not decent enough - it is open source!

And, there must be a solution how to operate a SIMpad with Open Embedded / Angstrom...

-- hns

the only thing I can think of is the HTC Athena, which is pretty small but not too small, but I don't even know if linux port has even been attempted

I still think that this ideal "Pocket Penguin" could be created by taking the guts out of a Nokia N800 and putting it into a clamshell case, adding a USB2 high speed port and other I/O expansion.

*drools*

You mean $1600 vs whatever zaurus goes for these days?
You do understand that oqo price tag includes much better processor, memory, etc (as you have listed yourself)? The difference is clearly not just the qwert keyboard?
From my point of view right now I don't care to discuss the price at all because the device i'm looking for is not available *at any price point*. Once it is released even if at high price initially it will eventually come down (although I would be happy to pay $2000 for current oqo size and features but it must be in the clam format).
Virtual keyboard will never work for me and I'm not interested in any workaround solutions for physical keyboard. I have decided that I will not compromise any longer (I am really tired of buying devices that are almost there - only if some one or two things were not screwed up - this forces us to later do all kinds of workarounds to get around the missing/screwed up features and I just wont put up with that s**t any more. I will simply stay with my current computer setup of Zaurus-860 + Powerbook + 24" iMac until I see real improvements for any of the above - it's just not there right now (I am almost as dissapointed with apple as with sharp because of them putting all the computer releases on hold to focus on iphone - which itself more and more looks like a huge disapointment before it's even released - again no keyboard, closed to third party developers, etc).

No, not compared to a Zaurus but to the Asus P2H I have mentioned. I can see only a faster CPU and a builtin QWERTY when comparing both for a price difference of approx. $900 -> $1600
I have now made my company to buy one for me, and I am positiviely surprised.

It comes WITH a QWERTY keyboard (foldable) and a mouse. WLAN and Bluetooth work out of the box. It even has a wired Ethernet interface. I have attached a photo comparing the Asus P2H with the Zaurus C3100 and a SIMpad.
Click to view attachment

Well, it is much larger and most notably heavier than a Zaurus, so it is more difficult to carry along - and you won't really use it like a Zaurus making notes in a seminar. But using it is sometimes easier, since the screen is larger and if you connect the QWERTY you will also connect the mouse. XP has sometimes problems with the WVGA screen since some Windows are designed too large...

Now, I am tying to install Ubuntu through instlux which would IMHO make it a nice platform for developing new software. Since the device has every interface you can think of (WLAN, Bluetooth, Ethernet, Video out, Audio in/out, GPS, Fingerprint, SD, USB), it is a great platform for software creativity.

And, Intel has just these days announced the next generation platform A100 and A110 which should allow much smaller designs with more power efficiency. I would not even be surprised if the iPhone is based on one of these but they can not announce yet. For Apple it might have been the root reason to switch to Intel (you remember Steve telling us about very nice things Intel has on their roadmap?).

-- hns

Interesting news on Red Flag Linux:

http://apcmag.com/5896/gallery_intels_new_..._red_flag_linux

They use the Asus R2H device for prototyping.

-- hns