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InSearchOf
I know it is hard as a dev to say does the community want this... Do they want that.... Or do they want neither.

This is why I ask this question. I'm not asking for what packages everyone would like (will be brought up later)
But would you want to have a base rom with very little packages (xfree,wm, utils, term app, text editor)

Or beef it up with the above and im client, web browser, mail app, word processor, etc.

I would like to know if the we (community) are a do-it-ourselves kind of group or would rather have it there and ready out of the box even if there may be unused apps

Late
Dromede
hmmm... how about both? :-D
seriously, i think that's an acceptable solution. make a "pdaxrom lite" version which contains bare essentials, and "pdaxrom full" which contains pretty much everything one might need. aside from that, what's the status on the 2.6 kernel?
Capn_Fish
I saey leave it pretty minimal, but with enough stuff so that it doesn't appear minimal to the extreme.

I know I for one like to use my own builds of things for two reasons:

-They're usually newer
-They're built with my CFLAGS, my options, etc, so I know what features are included and which aren't

I suspect leaving stuff open/not included is a good idea because you don't know what app somebody will want for a certain purpose. Take web browsing, for instance. I like Links2, but somebody else may like Dillo, another person may like Firefox, and another may want Lynx. This also keeps some deps out that people may not know to remove (I for one don't know all of the libs I can safely remove), leaving more space for the apps they want.

On another note, I thought pdaX was going to move from XFree to Xorg. Or was that just a thought and not definate?

EDIT: A pdaX full/lite sounds good to me. Also, maybe this should be a poll?
louigi600
I think pretty much everyone would expect the basic system to be able to surf internet and do some basic chatting: so I'm for including a light brouser and also gaim (which is mylt chat capable) to the light version but not much more.
InSearchOf
QUOTE(Dromede @ Sep 6 2007, 02:21 PM)
hmmm... how about both? :-D
seriously, i think that's an acceptable solution. make a "pdaxrom lite" version which contains bare essentials, and "pdaxrom full" which contains pretty much everything one might need. aside from that, what's the status on the 2.6 kernel?
*

Being worked... I'm going to start post the status of all parts of pdaXrom on pdaxrom.org

Late
InSearchOf
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Sep 6 2007, 02:22 PM)
On another note, I thought pdaX was going to move from XFree to Xorg. Or was that just a thought and not definate?

Xorg, is going to be pushed until I decide how I like the the new version of XFree 4.7.0 (just came out at few weeks ago)
QUOTE
EDIT: A pdaX full/lite sounds good to me. Also, maybe this should be a poll?
*

I dont like polls... because all you get is a "Yes or No" answer, but no release reasoning for your choice.

I like to know the "WHY"

Late
HoloVector
When I had the option to go Lite or Full with Cacko; I chose Full. Then I turned around and did the same with pdaXii13 and setup Akita with a full upgrade so, I guess that puts me in the hefty category. ohmy.gif No fat jokes please. tongue.gif
tanjian2
Can Antix/Meanie provide any stats regarding pdaxrom - would that help given it comes in base(lightand airy)/full-metal-jacket varieties?

Must admit I am a fully loaded person - (emacs user so what would you expect...).

Aside does pdaxrom have full C3000 support yet?
HoloVector
QUOTE(tanjian2 @ Sep 6 2007, 02:46 PM)
Can Antix/Meanie provide any stats regarding pdaxrom - would that help given it comes in base(lightand airy)/full-metal-jacket varieties?

Must admit I am a fully loaded person - (emacs user so what would you expect...).

Aside does pdaxrom have full C3000 support yet?
*

Well, I seem to remember that Meanie discontinued the Base HD Image for the 3000 due to lack of interest/downloads from the community and that is why the 3000 version only comes in the Full version now. So we seem to be following the laws of conservation of mass because the hefties outnumber the lites. laugh.gif

Dang, now I'm making fat jokes! rolleyes.gif
InSearchOf
QUOTE(tanjian2 @ Sep 6 2007, 04:46 PM)
Can Antix/Meanie provide any stats regarding pdaxrom - would that help given it comes in base(lightand airy)/full-metal-jacket varieties?

Must admit I am a fully loaded person - (emacs user so what would you expect...).

Aside does pdaxrom have full C3000 support yet?
*


Don't hold me to it, but pdaXrom 2 will have c3000 support. smile.gif

Its hard to debug a device I don't have biggrin.gif

Late
Capn_Fish
QUOTE(InSearchOf @ Sep 6 2007, 05:11 PM)
QUOTE(tanjian2 @ Sep 6 2007, 04:46 PM)
Can Antix/Meanie provide any stats regarding pdaxrom - would that help given it comes in base(lightand airy)/full-metal-jacket varieties?

Must admit I am a fully loaded person - (emacs user so what would you expect...).

Aside does pdaxrom have full C3000 support yet?
*


Don't hold me to it, but pdaXrom 2 will have c3000 support. smile.gif

Its hard to debug a device I don't have biggrin.gif

Late
*


Does that mean we'll be getting past 1.1.0 sometime soon? I think it's long overdue...
InSearchOf
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Sep 6 2007, 07:51 PM)
Does that mean we'll be getting past 1.1.0 sometime soon? I think it's long overdue...
*


Yes, 2 means a new begining pdaXrom 2.0.0

Late
HoloVector
Now, I can't wait to see your roadmap! biggrin.gif
Meanie
QUOTE(InSearchOf @ Sep 7 2007, 11:16 AM)
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Sep 6 2007, 07:51 PM)
Does that mean we'll be getting past 1.1.0 sometime soon? I think it's long overdue...
*


Yes, 2 means a new begining pdaXrom 2.0.0

Late
*



finally! smile.gif

as for the debate on lite vs full, in my experience and observations, the lite variety is only used by about 20-30% of the user base whilst the rest prefers the heavy full all you can have type with everything preinstalled and working out of the box. This is probably one of the reasons Windows used to appeal to many users, because the most essential apps were readily available in windows once it was installed. of course you can install more stuff later on, but the basic stuff that you want and need is already be there. of course you have to put some thoughts into what should be there already.

I have found that what windows is supplying out of the box is what an average user needs more or less with just a bit of fiddling.

So here is a list of things to consider:

notepad - maybe leafpad or xpad
calculator - galculator or the calculator that comes with xfe
file manager - xfe or pcmanfm
terminal - urxvt or xterm
browser - dillo or firefox (this one is going to be a tough choice since there are so many available but none that can really fulfill all the needs)
im - pidgin
video player - mplayer with some nice GUI
audio player - xmms
image viewer - gqview

of course people can always uninstall the ones they don't like and install something else if they prefer, but the goal is to have something that most people will find useful.

a success will be when people can install a distro and say that it is usable out of the box and just needs a few extra apps for their specific needs rather than, ok distro installed, frantic hunt for essential apps in order to have a working system during which the system is unusable because it is too bare minimum and nothing really works.
adf
All true. But the browser thing is kinda haunting me. Even if we can manage to stay current with firefox, it seems to me a very good idea to stay on top of developments in webkit, with an eye to making a webkit-with-some-front-end default browser, assuming it comes out more agile than firefox, or compiling FF2 for a 2.6 Z proves insurmountable, or at least to be too much effort.

Still, very good news, and high time indeed!
desertrat
I would tend to prefer a lite install (but that depends on whether the heavy install mostly contains apps I would actually use or just bloat). The lite version should have some decent tools for viewing and editing text file (config files) - I'm not sure whether this is still the case, but at one stage even the all important 'less' was not included. A decent editor would be vim but that may be too bloated, (vi is crap because it corrupts the display), maybe nano would do.

With the full backup/restore scripts by Meanie(?) it should be easy for people to do a lite install, then install apps of their choice then do a backup to create their own custom rom.
adf
QUOTE(desertrat @ Sep 10 2007, 08:45 PM)
I would tend to prefer a lite install (but that depends on whether the heavy install mostly contains apps I would actually use or just bloat). The lite version should have some decent tools for viewing and editing text file (config files) - I'm not sure whether this is still the case, but at one stage even the all important 'less' was not included. A decent editor would be vim but that may be too bloated, (vi is crap because it corrupts the display), maybe nano would do.

With the full backup/restore scripts by Meanie(?) it should be easy for people to do a lite install, then install apps of their choice then do a backup to create their own custom rom.
*

I, on the other hand, would like to see some heavies-- like a wyswyg hml editor and other stuff that helps with quick page and site management when relying on the Z. the mozlla we have will do, but a kompozer would be better. Of course, my basic setup atm includes the full kde 3.5 ipks (mainly for konqueror)...

Re the vi/nano thing. years of Z use have seriously biased me towards nano--I feel lost when I install desktop distro that doesn't have it by default (a version of vector linux, if you were wondering)
InSearchOf
QUOTE(desertrat @ Sep 11 2007, 12:45 AM)
I would tend to prefer a lite install (but that depends on whether the heavy install mostly contains apps I would actually use or just bloat). The lite version should have some decent tools for viewing and editing text file (config files) - I'm not sure whether this is still the case, but at one stage even the all important 'less' was not included. A decent editor would be vim but that may be too bloated, (vi is crap because it corrupts the display), maybe nano would do.

With the full backup/restore scripts by Meanie(?) it should be easy for people to do a lite install, then install apps of their choice then do a backup to create their own custom rom.
*


Actually I'm going to be heading up the backup/restore tool... but if meanie wants it... he can have it :-)

Late
ernestus
Too much work for InSearchOf, isn't it?
I had a look at the roadmap:
http://www.pdaxrom.org/?q=node/228
And basically everything is made by InSearchOf, I hope he survives!

Cheers
E
Meanie
QUOTE(InSearchOf @ Sep 11 2007, 11:02 PM)
QUOTE(desertrat @ Sep 11 2007, 12:45 AM)
I would tend to prefer a lite install (but that depends on whether the heavy install mostly contains apps I would actually use or just bloat). The lite version should have some decent tools for viewing and editing text file (config files) - I'm not sure whether this is still the case, but at one stage even the all important 'less' was not included. A decent editor would be vim but that may be too bloated, (vi is crap because it corrupts the display), maybe nano would do.

With the full backup/restore scripts by Meanie(?) it should be easy for people to do a lite install, then install apps of their choice then do a backup to create their own custom rom.
*


Actually I'm going to be heading up the backup/restore tool... but if meanie wants it... he can have it :-)

Late
*



maybe later when I have more time. i think the ideas employed in my zbackup solution is quite good and should also be added into this new backup/restore tool... but sorry, i am rather busy at the moment...
Capn_Fish
I'm all for trying a Gecko-based browser with a light interface (like Galeon). It loads much faster than FF on my machines.

EDIT: InSearchOf: Could we replace Firefox with such an app in the build system?
InSearchOf
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Sep 11 2007, 09:28 PM)
I'm all for trying a Gecko-based browser with a light interface (like Galeon). It loads much faster than FF on my machines.

EDIT: InSearchOf: Could we replace Firefox with such an app in the build system?
*


It is always an option... I was looking to stablize FF as much as possible especially since anunakin is working on the "Flash" peice... but we will see what we can do...

Late
InSearchOf
QUOTE(Meanie @ Sep 11 2007, 08:56 PM)
QUOTE(InSearchOf @ Sep 11 2007, 11:02 PM)
QUOTE(desertrat @ Sep 11 2007, 12:45 AM)
I would tend to prefer a lite install (but that depends on whether the heavy install mostly contains apps I would actually use or just bloat). The lite version should have some decent tools for viewing and editing text file (config files) - I'm not sure whether this is still the case, but at one stage even the all important 'less' was not included. A decent editor would be vim but that may be too bloated, (vi is crap because it corrupts the display), maybe nano would do.

With the full backup/restore scripts by Meanie(?) it should be easy for people to do a lite install, then install apps of their choice then do a backup to create their own custom rom.
*


Actually I'm going to be heading up the backup/restore tool... but if meanie wants it... he can have it :-)

Late
*



maybe later when I have more time. i think the ideas employed in my zbackup solution is quite good and should also be added into this new backup/restore tool... but sorry, i am rather busy at the moment...
*



One difference between your Z backup tool and the one I've implemented where is it executed from.
This will be housed under the Emergency image. It will be an all in 1 package for installing, backing up and restoring.
Install will be the same as normal but call done in the background.
Backup will be a dd export of the system
Restore dd import

Simple enough :-)

Late
HoloVector
I think the new pdaXrom version should leverage the xfe file manager as much as possible since it is really is suite of very good helper applications with an excellent graphical file manager. I use the xfw to edit my config files, the xfi to view my graphics files. I used to use LeafPad and GQView for those tasks until Meanie introduced me to xfe in pdaXii13. Having these xf apps a right click away in the file manager is a real productivity booster for me. biggrin.gif

I also believe that xarchiver should be included in the base image since that is another one my gotta have tools. smile.gif
Meanie
QUOTE(InSearchOf @ Sep 12 2007, 12:57 PM)
QUOTE(Meanie @ Sep 11 2007, 08:56 PM)
QUOTE(InSearchOf @ Sep 11 2007, 11:02 PM)
QUOTE(desertrat @ Sep 11 2007, 12:45 AM)
I would tend to prefer a lite install (but that depends on whether the heavy install mostly contains apps I would actually use or just bloat). The lite version should have some decent tools for viewing and editing text file (config files) - I'm not sure whether this is still the case, but at one stage even the all important 'less' was not included. A decent editor would be vim but that may be too bloated, (vi is crap because it corrupts the display), maybe nano would do.

With the full backup/restore scripts by Meanie(?) it should be easy for people to do a lite install, then install apps of their choice then do a backup to create their own custom rom.
*


Actually I'm going to be heading up the backup/restore tool... but if meanie wants it... he can have it :-)

Late
*



maybe later when I have more time. i think the ideas employed in my zbackup solution is quite good and should also be added into this new backup/restore tool... but sorry, i am rather busy at the moment...
*



One difference between your Z backup tool and the one I've implemented where is it executed from.
This will be housed under the Emergency image. It will be an all in 1 package for installing, backing up and restoring.
Install will be the same as normal but call done in the background.
Backup will be a dd export of the system
Restore dd import

Simple enough :-)

Late
*



it is true that it is quite simple, and simple is generally good. however, there are a few downsides that i would like to point out. you would need to boot into the emergency system in order to do backup. this is similar to the current nand backup, but imho a bit of an inconvenience and since humans are generally lazy, it would probably lead to people seldomly doing a backup except maybe just prior to a major upgrade or flashing to another distro.
the other drawback which i consider more of an issue is that using dd to backup the whole system can be a great overhead. it would not be a problem for purely nand based systems since there only is a total of 128MB, however, with the c3x00 series where there also is a harddisk (microdrive) which is 4/6GB in size, doing a dd might not be such a great idea. sure, you could partition up the microdrive into several smaller partition and only backup the system partition where packages are installed to. remember the c3000 only has 16mb of nand so it has to have its system on the microdrive, whereas the other c3x00 models have the option to either have the system files on nand or the microdrive.
not trying to beat up on you but you did sort of promise support for c3000 so issues for the c3000 need therefore also be considered.
InSearchOf
QUOTE(Meanie @ Sep 12 2007, 12:03 AM)
It is true that it is quite simple, and simple is generally good. however, there are a few downsides that i would like to point out. you would need to boot into the emergency system in order to do backup. this is similar to the current nand backup, but imho a bit of an inconvenience and since humans are generally lazy, it would probably lead to people seldomly doing a backup except maybe just prior to a major upgrade or flashing to another distro.
the other drawback which i consider more of an issue is that using dd to backup the whole system can be a great overhead. it would not be a problem for purely nand based systems since there only is a total of 128MB, however, with the c3x00 series where there also is a harddisk (microdrive) which is 4/6GB in size, doing a dd might not be such a great idea. sure, you could partition up the microdrive into several smaller partition and only backup the system partition where packages are installed to. remember the c3000 only has 16mb of nand so it has to have its system on the microdrive, whereas the other c3x00 models have the option to either have the system files on nand or the microdrive.
not trying to beat up on you but you did sort of promise support for c3000 so issues for the c3000 need therefore also be considered.
*


I've thought about this... briefly... but I have. Well, it is weighed on if I decide to make the system partition static to 128mb or if I allow user customization. Standardizing to 128mb give or take (in most cases give :-D ) will keep the backup and restore times pretty much standard across the board and most users have a 256mb-up usbflash,sd, or cf card to drop there backup on to.

But that is why 3000 is still in the think tank :-) and C3000 doesnt have a estimated completion date. I have a lot more ahead of me before the one gets a solid push...

Thanks Meanie, and I'm going to head your assistance heading up this project due to me not having a c3000

Late

EDIT: and regards to the whole Booting into emergency image to do a back up.

I'm am all about Byte by Byte backups, I not to keen to the tar'ing a filesystem and an active one at that... *quivers*
scoutme
best solution IMHO would be a lite but complete package plus some well designed squashfs images (not too big - not everyone has a microdrive). Those squashfs images should be loaded by default if present in the right position; the auto-mounting feature should be in a package included by default in the lite distro. My 2 cents smile.gif
desertrat
QUOTE(InSearchOf @ Sep 12 2007, 12:13 PM)
I'm am all about Byte by Byte backups, I not to keen to the tar'ing a filesystem and an active one at that... *quivers*

Actually it's good that there are (or will be) 2 backup methods. Meanie's could be used for "everyday" backup operations, whilst yours would be like ghost/partimage for making a verbatim backup of the complete system.
adf
any chance it will be able to restore from or backup to a usb drive?
InSearchOf
QUOTE(adf @ Sep 15 2007, 03:25 AM)
any chance it will be able to restore from or backup to a usb drive?
*


Yes, usb is already functional under the emergency images... I actual install all my roms from usb :-)

Late
koan
Here is my 10 yen on lite vs full:

I would prefer a very lite default install, with very basic web browser etc. Just enough to get me running.

I would like some "mega packages", e.g. PIM (calendar, todo, addressbook, etc. installing directly to NAND for speed), Net stuff (pidgin, email, FF, wireless), Dev (compiler, debug, headers), Games, you get the idea.

Then I can install the basic image much faster and choose a few mega packages, finally adding a few individual apps.
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