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speculatrix
QUOTE(nilch @ Dec 3 2007, 10:28 PM) *
QT for the OS2008 (the OS for N810 and N800 devices).


I downloaded the .install file, which is basically a debian apt/sources.list entry, and it looks like this:
[install]
repo_name = Qt4
repo_deb = deb http://qt4.garage.maemo.org/ chinook user
package = qt4-maemo-example


and it looks like someone is already using it:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=12675
tux
cool.gif Would this whole thread not be better under the Nokia Tablets forum? unsure.gif

Just wondering.. smile.gif
freizugheit
Oops, N810 might be in your Christmas gift list after reading this review.
jan
I bought one, as the Zaurii are dying (no vendor support, Angstrom people more into OpenMoko than Z), I feel it makes a good substitute. The N810 keyboard ist not as good as the one of the clamshell Z. The German variant doesn't lacks a $ key (but has ), certainly not targeted for coders.

My first impressions review
Antikx
Thanks for the mini review and pictures Jan. Well done!
speculatrix
QUOTE(jan @ Jan 5 2008, 01:53 AM) *
I bought one, as the Zaurii are dying (no vendor support, Angstrom people more into OpenMoko than Z), I feel it makes a good


actually, angstrom is soon to achieve a release milestone - will probably actually succeed too (provided they don't argue too much!)

if openmoko makes it big, I could imagine it being a good distro for the Z, and Debian is doing quite well based on the Angstrom kernel, and Android is causing a lot of interest.

The Z may be resting, but there's still a lot of life in the old gal yet!
AmigaFalcon
I think its obvious that Sharpe have totally abandoned the Z. But, really, does the fact that the Z has no "official" commercial support REALLY matter that much? After all, the Commodore Amiga has been commercially dead for over 12 years now. There is virtually no commercial interest/support for the Amiga, yet it has an AMAZING vibrant community full of people still developing for it.

I think the Z will head the same way, it will continue to grow under its own steam and it will retain those users who truly love this unique platform. The Z will go down as a "classic" computer in time and if you take a look around at other, older, "classic" platforms (such as the Amiga, C64, Apple Newton, etc) you realize that there is no fear for the Z's future. Those who love to use their Z's will be able to do so for MANY years to come, despite the lack of commercial support. The Z "community" will keep it alive if it is strong enough (which I feel it is)

All this talk of a "Zaurus replacement" and this apparent manic obsession with OTHER (newer) devices seems to be coming from those people who simply crave the latest and greatest. Which is great, for them. But, personally, I love the Z for its unique design and really do not think any other device (including the N810) could replace the Z.

There is pretty much NO hope for the Z to be a commercial success again, I think. We should just accept that fact and begin to appreciate the Z for what it is and focus on creating our own system of support and development. WE DO NOT NEED COMMERCIAL BACKING TO MAKE OUR Z A SUCCESS!!
ZDevil
Well said.
Allow me to say one thing: with the official support from standard *nix distros (like OpenBSD and Debian, and possibly Android in future as well), the Z will last for years to come for sure.
speculatrix
QUOTE(AmigaFalcon @ Mar 9 2008, 03:11 PM) *
There is pretty much NO hope for the Z to be a commercial success again, I think. We should just accept that fact and begin to appreciate the Z for what it is and focus on creating our own system of support and development. WE DO NOT NEED COMMERCIAL BACKING TO MAKE OUR Z A SUCCESS!!


the Z has never been a commercial success outside Japan! However, I strongly agree with you.

I sometimes wonder if these machines become a cult success because they're abandoned by the commercial companies and thus they leave the community rather than interfere. An (over-)simplified example of corporate interference might be Sony's MyLo.

e.g.1. The original MyLo product (my life online) using Sony's "Clie" line was a failure. The dedicated Mylo1 was a failure, The Mylo2 looks set to repeat many of the same mistakes. They're almost completely closed platform despite being Linux + QT based!

e.g.2. The Sony Clie Palms, which were fairly open because anyone could get hold of the Palm SDK, were pretty successful and many people rated their hardware highly, even though Sony weren't brilliantly helpful to their developers; like Sharp, they abandoned the developer's forums despite protestations (if I recall correctly).

e.g.3. The Nokias are successful, with Nokia having a good community around the machines and not trying to limit what people can do with them. Even the original 770 despite its failings was still a popular device.
HoloVector
QUOTE(speculatrix @ Mar 9 2008, 12:33 PM) *
the Z has never been a commercial success outside Japan! However, I strongly agree with you.

I sometimes wonder if these machines become a cult success because they're abandoned by the commercial companies and thus they leave the community rather than interfere. An (over-)simplified example of corporate interference might be Sony's MyLo.

e.g.1. The original MyLo product (my life online) using Sony's "Clie" line was a failure. The dedicated Mylo1 was a failure, The Mylo2 looks set to repeat many of the same mistakes. They're almost completely closed platform despite being Linux + QT based!

e.g.2. The Sony Clie Palms, which were fairly open because anyone could get hold of the Palm SDK, were pretty successful and many people rated their hardware highly, even though Sony weren't brilliantly helpful to their developers; like Sharp, they abandoned the developer's forums despite protestations (if I recall correctly).

e.g.3. The Nokias are successful, with Nokia having a good community around the machines and not trying to limit what people can do with them. Even the original 770 despite its failings was still a popular device.


Interesting observations Speculatrix however I have to disagree with you on example 3. While the Nokia's might be successful in some regions it is not a universal success. I have yet to see one in person nor can walk into a local electronics store and pick one up but I have seen half a dozen iPhones (and they aren't even officially available in my country).
ZDevil
The MyLo ... well, I'm afraid to say it's almost unheard of and not talked about at all, at least it's practically non-existent in most gadget websites and forums (apart from the news about releases...)

The Sony Clies! To me they are the most amazingly handheld devices I've ever used! I still have the NX73v European ver.: 3.7" 480x320, virtual graffiti, dual card slots (CF type II & MS (pro)), microphone, toy (but quite fun!) camera, swivel-clamshell design, thumbboard, and -- builtin bluetooth! It was the heyday of my mobile experience to use bluetooth connection to my Sony Ericsson cellphone for GPRS netorking. I simply buried my cellphone in the bag as a "modem", using my the Clie's addressbook and touchscreen dialing and talking in a bluetooth headset. I also used that for my infrared remote control (well, perhaps I should use it now to replace the broken for my home tv ... why not? tongue.gif ). To be honest, even my 3200 falls short in some ways standing beside it.
And when I think of Clie 760 I am still amazed at its vibrant screen and the "stamina" battery!
I guess the Cliesource (which no longer exists, sadly...) was the most successful PalmOS community effort to make the gadget rock. It was such an excitement to see new patches and hacks popping up every now and then.
It is still being charged once in a while to sustain the battery. I will surely pick it up again IF it can run linux! (It's Intel PXA250 ARM ...)

At one time I also thought of getting a N810 when Sharp practically made the Zaurus an EOL product last year. But now the solutions to running great distros rekindle my Zpirit! I may want to get a N810 if it can go as far as the Z, though.
Capn_Fish
Well, after learning that Angstrom runs and is functional on the N810, I broke down and ordered one.

No need to panic, though, I'll be around here most likely as long as this site exists in a semi-active state.

Yes, I will do my own comparison of the Z (3100 and 750) to it.

Allow the panic, commotion, questions, and general havoc to commence!
stupkid
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Mar 18 2008, 04:45 PM) *
Allow the panic, commotion, questions, and general havoc to commence!


PANIC!!!!

I've been looking at the N810 as well. One of my co-workers is a big Nokia fanboi he has an N770 and an N800. My biggest turn off with those devices was no keyboard. Of course, the N810 came out after I purchased my C3200 and now I am seeing the slow down of this community. The N810 has it's faults, but it does have a lot of good things going for it.

The Z is a great device, but vendor support is a really nice touch and does make a difference.
Capn_Fish
I have no need for vendor support (there's no way Nokia will support Angstrom, and no WAY am I staying with the normal OS. Nothing I own and use runs the same OS it came with smile.gif). It's more the extra RAM and pixels that are doing it for me (and gadget lust).
speculatrix
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Mar 18 2008, 10:13 PM) *
I have no need for vendor support (there's no way Nokia will support Angstrom, and no WAY am I staying with the normal OS. Nothing I own and use runs the same OS it came with smile.gif). It's more the extra RAM and pixels that are doing it for me (and gadget lust).


I must admit, it was the better display that "made me" buy a 770 2nd hand lightly used, and then I got the n800 remaindered. The 810's keyboard is still inferior to the Z, and the Z's CF slot, into which I can put my GPRS adaptor, means the Z still has that edge. If the N had sufficient power to drive "my" (employers' Huawei E172) 3G usb adaptor, then the case for the Z would weaken.
stupkid
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Mar 18 2008, 05:13 PM) *
I have no need for vendor support (there's no way Nokia will support Angstrom, and no WAY am I staying with the normal OS. Nothing I own and use runs the same OS it came with smile.gif). It's more the extra RAM and pixels that are doing it for me (and gadget lust).


By vendor support I mean tool chain, hardware docs in English, flash tools, and things like Skype and Macromedia Flash binaries. It does help to have a vendor that does more than dump code. Nokia provides instruction on how to compile new kernels and how to flash new kernels. Not that they are going to support some new ROM, but making all this available helps make hacking the device more accessible.
ArchiMark
FWIW, besides getting back into the Z fold by getting another 3200 this week laugh.gif

I found a great deal that I couldn't pass up for a new N810 over at OverStockDealz.com.....

I saw their 'Make Offer' button and figured what the heck....offered them $300 and they accepted.... rolleyes.gif

BTW, the one they list as 'N810R' is a new in the box unit. Their description was a bit confusing but I called and discussed it with them. The other one listed 'N810RB' is a new unit, but probably either openbox or maybe a store demo unit. Hence, the lower price....

So, got it a week ago...haven't used it that much yet, but it is quite nice and works well, excellent display...keyboard is better than what I expected, but not as nice as C3xxx keyboard...

Has a very different feel than a Z.....we'll see whether it's a keeper or not....

But plan on keeping my Z this time!!!!!

wink.gif
Capn_Fish
I bought it from there too! I should have taken the time to offer $300...I paid $350 sad.gif. Live and learn, I guess.

What do you mean by "different feel?" The software or hardware?
ArchiMark
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Mar 18 2008, 07:35 PM) *
I bought it from there too! I should have taken the time to offer $300...I paid $350 sad.gif. Live and learn, I guess.

What do you mean by "different feel?" The software or hardware?



Hmmm....suppose both.... wink.gif

First, it's a slider design rather than a clamshell design like the Cxxx...so, that automatically gives it a different feel, literally....

I find that when I'm at my desk at home or at work then it's nicer to use a clamshell design so you can sit the Z on your desk surface and use like lil' lappy (although you can sit and use Z as slate in your hand too of course...).

If you're standing, then slider with thumboard keyboard is probably nicer (although you can stand and Z as slate in your hand too....)...

Hmmm......

rolleyes.gif


Second, the way you navigate through the OS, feels different than the Z too....not saying that it's good or bad, but different....although it's pretty good once you use for a few days...

Third, maybe due to the various OS options out for the Z, it just feels right now more 'tweakable' or 'hackable'...but maybe my take on this will change if I use N810 more...

Fourth, N810 with built-in WiFi is very nice, but I don't think it's that big of a deal to use a CF WiFi card....

So, each has a very distinct feel to them, with their own pros and cons......maybe I'll keep both!

smile.gif

HTH,

Mark

Capn_Fish
How about the keyboard? I guess I'd describe the Cxx00's keyboards as slightly "mushy" (but still VERY nice). How's the N810's compared to that?

QUOTE
Z, it just feels right now more 'tweakable' or 'hackable'...but maybe my take on this will change if I use N810 more...


You mean the Z feels more tweakable/hackable? That's my current impression, but I'm thinking that with Angstrom on the N810, it ought to feel the same software-wise as my Z.
stupkid
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Mar 18 2008, 10:39 PM) *
You mean the Z feels more tweakable/hackable? That's my current impression, but I'm thinking that with Angstrom on the N810, it ought to feel the same software-wise as my Z.

I was reading that there is unused 3D acceleration hardware on the N8*, which seems kinda silly that Nokia never has used it if it is there. And the performance of the Quake port on that device is not very impressive. My guess is they don't have any super geeks like sashz over there.
ArchiMark
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Mar 18 2008, 08:39 PM) *
How about the keyboard? I guess I'd describe the Cxx00's keyboards as slightly "mushy" (but still VERY nice). How's the N810's compared to that?


Hmmm.. I never thought of the Cxxxx's keyboard as mushy, more like very 'clicky'....


QUOTE
Z, it just feels right now more 'tweakable' or 'hackable'...but maybe my take on this will change if I use N810 more...


QUOTE
You mean the Z feels more tweakable/hackable? That's my current impression, but I'm thinking that with Angstrom on the N810, it ought to feel the same software-wise as my Z.



Yes..... I don't know much about Angstrom....
BarryW
QUOTE(stupkid @ Mar 19 2008, 06:26 AM) *
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Mar 18 2008, 10:39 PM) *
You mean the Z feels more tweakable/hackable? That's my current impression, but I'm thinking that with Angstrom on the N810, it ought to feel the same software-wise as my Z.

I was reading that there is unused 3D acceleration hardware on the N8*, which seems kinda silly that Nokia never has used it if it is there. And the performance of the Quake port on that device is not very impressive. My guess is they don't have any super geeks like sashz over there.



I think I read on the forums that they don't have enough video memory to implement the 3d acceleration. Though I might be misremembering. The biggest problem I had with the device, I had the 800, was the "vendor support", or lack of it. Right after the last big os update the whole section in charge of the nits went on holiday! It was like they posted the files on the way out the door. Never mind the fact that their update servers weren't working. Everybody either had to flash back to the previous os, or wait three freaking weeks for them to fix their update servers. The devices had a funny habit of trashing sd cards. The new gui isn't as tweakable as the old one. They touted the webcam as a way to do on the go video conferencing, then pulled the application a few months after release. Which basically made the camera a useless part. It's really not a good camera, my old cell phone had a better camera. I really tried to like the device, it just wasn't quite there. Maybe the 810 would be different. I don't know, I've never seen one in real life. Though I never saw the 800 in real life before I bought it either.
Capn_Fish
QUOTE(ArchiMark @ Mar 19 2008, 10:39 AM) *
Hmmm.. I never thought of the Cxxxx's keyboard as mushy, more like very 'clicky'....


Compared to the C750's keyboard, it is definitely slightly "mushy" (less force to press keys, less noise), but, then again, the C750's keyboard is REALLY "clicky." That's where my comparison is coming from.

EDIT: I'm actually slightly concerned that Angstrom won't work as well on the N810 as I was led to believe. If not, I'll see if I can do anything to remedy the situation.
speculatrix
QUOTE(BarryW @ Mar 19 2008, 03:50 PM) *
I think I read on the forums that they don't have enough video memory to implement the 3d acceleration.


from what I understand, the N800 has a design flaw which means there's a bandwidth bottleneck between CPU and video, which prevents playback of video at higher screen rates. the 770 didn't have this flaw, and its CPU is the limiting factor.

Unfortunately in creating the n810 from the 800, they didn't redesign the hardware (I presume there's a gate array or ASIC) to fix this problem; if wimax version does come out and if it improves video bandwidth and if it would work in the UK then I would strongly consider upgrading to it, as it is my twin-SD-slot N800 is good enough for me!

The accelerated video is down to Nokia not actually getting drivers from TI for the chipset, it's been a bone of contention and a lot of people have taken a pot-shot at Nokia for what seems to be a really stupid situation!
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