I'm making the mostly official and potentially mostly final list of apps to include in the pdaXrom 2.0 release image. Since we're trying to listen to the community more for this release, I'm asking for feedback, changes, etc. Here's the list I came up with, feel free to post comments, ideas, additions, changes, things to cut, etc. below. I'll keep this post updated with the latest list and when it was last changed.



Last update: 2008/07/09

I'm not a fan of this app on the Z. It is just too big and slow for me, but I have no better suggestions.



I guess I can install whatever WM I want after the fact. A pre-configured wbar with one of those config tools you linked to in the wbar thread would be nice. It would give pdaXrom a bit of a new snazzy look.

Filesystem/editors:
- Nano
- Leafpad
- Geany(or Beaver) <--- maybe not in the image
- ROX-Filer
I would rather have ROX-Filer, I find it faster, you can have single-click navigation and configure shortcut keys the way you like just by adding gtk-can-change-accels = 1 in ~/.gtkrc-2.0 . i reckon that cut/copy/paste/link is rather cumbersome on small screen since you need to have 2 windows opened and not maximized.
You can have single-click navigation in PCManFM too but you need to patch the source. See http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=752706
I would add ROX-Archive which is very simple(no navigation inside archive, just plain extraction/creation)
As for GPartED, I find it too big and slow, it is not very often used, therefore i am in favor of fdisk and mkfs even if it's not user friendly.

WM/GUI:
- Fluxbox
That sounds good to me. I like split screen feature, it's useful when you want to drag and drop between 2 windows(ROX-Filer comes to mind). Actually i am using JWM for speed reasons and you can set it to maximize everytime selected apps.
I was thinking about Lxpanel combined with openbox. Lxpanel has lots of plugins(battery,volume,netstatus, cpumonitor, ...) and scans .desktop so the menu is updated when new apps are installed(I don't know if fluxbox does that but certainly not JWM) but I don't know about the ressources it would need on a Zaurus. I think there are GUIs now to configure Fluxbox.

Internet:
- Dillo(as an HTML viewer primarily) and Firefox3(or Midori or Skipstone)
I think WebKit is still not mature enough
- Ayttm? instead of Pidgin. See Ayttm? features
- Sylpheed instead of claws-mail. I don't use all the features of claws-mail and it's becoming quite big

Multimedia:
- Quasar
- MPlayer
- GPicView <---- great or maybe fotoxxx
- AlsamixerGUI**
- gsnapshot is very small, has GUI and you can select a region, entire screen or window
- EPDFView** <---- from SVN or maybe old xpdf 3.02, pdf are a pain to read on a Z,way too slow
- MTPaint* <--- not in the image

Terminals:
- Rxvt-unicode(very fast startup)
- Sakura if one needs tabs,GUI config, cut/copy/paste,...

Accessories:
- Galculator(or gpe-calculator which is faster to load)
- Xournal(or FreeNoteqt)
- Notecase (maybe not in the image)
- zip, unzip, bzip2, ...
- ROX-Archive(and maybe xarchive 0.2.8.6 for navigation)

System
- Package manager <----- Qpkg was OK to me

Security:
- IPTables* <--- not in the image
- Firestarter* <--- not in the image

Office:
- Abiword* <--- not in the image
- Gnumeric* <--- not in the image

No bluetooth packages in the image

And of course GUIs to configure wifi, power, ...

How about a "lite" version, somewhat like Cacko lite?
Just include a basic console and text editor and package manager and basic libs.
This would also need some basic files and configurations to connect online and use the feeds.
Then one could add packages when needed.

I just started with my Zaurus and the only apps I use are:

Scribble
Xournal

for drawing and taking notes.

If there are better alternatives for drawing and taking notes, I'd try them, but ATM these 2 are pretty crucial.

I've also been really impressed with GIMP (it seems heavy for included app tho..)

Looking forward to a new release! Great!

OK, InSearchOf (and I ) agree that having "full" and "lite" versions is the way to go. The above list will be for the FULL version only. I'll probably stick some sort of mark to denote "also in the lite image."

EDIT: I'll get the new list up for debate in a bit.

EDIT2: New list is up.

Maybe handwriting recognition would be nice (Cellwriter)?

EDIT: And I suppose everybody wants PIM that syncs with Outlook, Exchange, Lotus, Google whatever, etc...*

*I don't know if such an app exists that we could use

Are you suggesting to add Geany? C'mon there are already 2 editors listed (one CLI, one GUI). We don't want bloat (as in duplicate programs) even on a "full" image.


[rant]
This is something I find strange and irritating, how is single-click useable, especially on a touchscreen device? Sometimes I want to select an item without activating it, how does one do that without resorting to "right-click and cancel any context-sensitive menu"?
[/rant]

Agree. Anyway isn't GPartED just a GUI for fdisk/mkfs.* - ie you still need fdisk/mkfs.* regardless? Or replace fdisk with cfdisk if the namby pambys wants a gui.

Wha's wrong with good old IceWM, it's fast, light (fairly) and has lots of "plugins" builtin.

that's nice, but if it keeps on spinning up the microdrive every minute or so it could be a serious drain on battery life.

Heh, my vote would be for the HP48 emulator, it loads much faster than Galculator and is somewhat more powerful

As much as I like Geany, I think it's overkill for the defaut image. It's somewhat heavier than Leafpad, and most people don't edit code on their Z.

@desertrat: On the ROX topic, I agree completely, especially for directories where there are a lot of files, and the click + drag selection can't really be used.

GPartED has been taken out of the list.

Concerning the .desktop thing....I would have to research HOW it scans them. If it only scans when it's run (eg, when you start X), that's not bad at all. Even scanning when you open the menu wouldn't be THAT bad (and pretty darn easy to patch out).

On the HP48 topic: Link? My concerns here are that it may not fit on the screen well, it may be more complicated than necessary, and that it may be overly large (in KB/MB, not pixels).

If I remember correctly previous releases had SciTE, Leafpad and mcedit. I was just emphasizing that I find geany or beaver speedier than SciTE. We can leave it out of the image.
Single-click or double-click is a matter of taste but at least with ROX-Filer one can choose. In single-click mode, you can still select a file/directory by pressing Ctrl while taping and get the contextual menu by pressing Fn while taping.


I have nothing against IceWM, I just don't like it as much as fluxbox or JWM(I don't use any plugin however). I found the configuration files for IceWM obscure and somewhat buggy, the GUIs(icecontrol center, ...) are akward also. The GUIs to configure Fluxbox were just what I expected but they were not reliable/buggy(fluxconf, fluxkeys and fluxmenu). I didn't try yet the new GUIs for it. In the end, I find editing text files just fine, fast and not much less user friendly. Nevertheless, if we can have a well configured WM I'm happy with whatever solution we come up with.

I would like to see a "maxi" version for the C3x00 models, with as much as possible included and pre-configured (like ROX). And then a convenient way to remove the packages (and dependencies) that aren't needed.

I think I got my copy from here:
http://www.oesf.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=17031

The package size is about 100K and you need a ROM image which uses 512K. As you can see from the above link it has been patched for a 640x480 screen so it fits just right.

Click to view attachment

Hmmm... I dont know if we will take the path of having 2 different releases... we will in most cases just stick to the lite and full image for now.

Late
PS. IRC is up... #pdaxrom @ FreeNode

I am in favor of both PIM apps and handwriting recognition, if it works well (better than the one included in default Sharp ROM).




I've used Gparted before on the desktop, and it allows something very useful: non-destructive resizing of partitions. I don't know if it is a front-end for fdisk, and mkfs, but I don't think either of those apps allow for resizing except by deleting, then re-creating the partition.

As far as GUIs being for "namby pambys", just consider me a namby pamby. If there is a GUI front-end for a tool in existence, I just see no need for arcane commands in a console. My objection would be if the application is just too large, too unreliable, or too slow. In that case, I would rather use a command line program.

Just my 2¢

I think it's just a frontend for parted, which most likely does include non-destructive resizing.

I personally don't like the idea of non-destructive repartitioning. It seems like an invitation for corruption and data loss, or long-term issues...*

*I have used the GPartED livecd to resize my partitions, and it worked fine. I reformatted soon after, so I can't verify my claims that it invites destruction.

On the desktop and laptop, I've used GPartEd (on Ubuntu Live CD) and QtPartEd (on a Kanotix Live CD) and never had any corruption. It is able to resize the partition without corrupting data. I've used it at least 20 times, probably more. (Trying various linux distros (Mandrake, Knoppix, Turbo Linux, Slack, BeOS, Ubuntu, RedHat, Suse, OpenSuse, Kanotix, and which one was it that let you play Tetris while it installed?) on both my laptop, and desktop computer.) When I've installed a new hard drive, I used the "Restore CD" that came with my laptop, then resized the partition, and used freed space to install Linux to have a dual boot machine. I bought an extra hard drive caddy, and had one hard drive for daily use, and another for trying out distros. I've trashed my computer plenty of times trying new stuff, (just trashed my C1000 recently trying new stuff) but have never had QtPartEd cause a problem.

OT:

IMHO, fooling with the boot loader (especially GRUB) has always been the thing that was most prone to problems. LILO was always less risky. You could simply uninstall it (lilo -u), and do "fdisk /mbr" or "fixmbr" in Windows repair console.

Like I said, I haven't experienced issues, and have confidence in the software, I'm just saying that to me it feels like an invitation for issues to repartition on the fly, so to speak. I also don't mind rebuilding my computers, so that's probably the leading reason I'm disinclined to use it.

By the way, I'm not saying that I think it should be included in the ROM. It is more useful to prepare the hd for an install, than to use after the install. But I do think it is a nice piece of software.

2 wishes from me:

pwm/pi (password manager from kopi)

and vim (just basic, not all the special add ins)

I don't think Vim will make it, as we already have the easier-to-use Nano in there as the CLI editor...

Does anybody have more discussion on the current list? Things that are bad fits, truely unnecessary, etc.?

For System >> Package manager, I see there is still only a placeholder. Is synaptic too large? It is a gui front-end for apt-get.

http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/

Oh, yeah...

I don't have final word on what the package management system will be, so that can't really be filled in right now. I assume it will be Synaptic (however large and heavy it may be) or QPKG.

What about aptitude for the package manager? Presumably it should be less resource-intensive than synaptic.

I agree, but tghen there's the user-friendly factor (the CLI is scary, I guess).

I still need to learn what packaging system is being used, though.

The window manager and related stuff appears to be the biggest question as of right now, so what do people think? I believe the main choices being looked at are (not an official list by any means):

-Fluxbox
-Matchbox
-IceWM
-LXDE

I would personally prefer OpenBox.

I used IceWM about 5 years ago on the desktop, and thought it was overly plain. It has probably progressed since then. The others I have never tried. So I would say the best one is the one that is most stable, least resource hungry, and still configurable to have a desktop that can be dressed up or down (to taste).

(That probably didn't help much.)

I'm going to build LXDE and post some screen shots shortly... (not today)

Late

Here's a screenshot from the website, FWIW.

EDIT: LXDE uses Openbox by default, but perhaps that could be up for debate as well (it appears to be very easy to change the WM, so something like Fluxbox with the LXDE components isn't out of the question).

LXDE looks very nice!

hmm, I'd love to start taking my Z to Uni and use it as a calculator. I've only tried a couple of calcs on the Z (apparently the best available) but they just didn't feel usable enough to replace my regular Scientific at uni. If this works as well as it _looks_ then I'd also like to see this included. it's a real-world app that could help make my Z that bit more practical in day-to-day use.

In fact, I really hope this entire project (PdaXRom v2) improves on the standard of currently available distros! Really want to start taking my Z seriously asap!

Capt_n_Fish/InSearchOf/et all ... go for it!! I and (ig uess) quite a few others are rooting for you on this Just wish I had the skills necessary to contribute myself...

I guess much better to use:
ROXterm for terminal;
leafpad and gvim for text editors;
xfce for window manager.
It will be a FULL little Linux Laptop with full features.
And not so slowly.
Or, maybe, good to make a single XFCE Full distribution for C3x00 series.
If I can help in something,please write me.
I've Zaurus C3200,many PC's, not busy and want to help.
PdaXrom is a very nice project and must to have a future!

Well. InSearchOf isn't working on it anymore, and I never did get my environment set up, so if you want to pick up dev work (with Sash, who has been busy according to the SVN repo), you might want to get in contact on SF/wherever with either InSearchOf or Sash (good luck there).

I'd also argue that Xfce isn't so lightweight (12.5% of my Nokia N810's RAM was taken up for EACH widget (clock, window list, etc.) that was added to the toolbar. That would be 25% of the Z's RAM ). Just something to think about...

My $0.02.

LXDE looks really nice. I hope is not as heavy as Xfce. Fluxbox would be my other choice for a WM.

I really look forward to pdaXrom v.2. I have tried beta 1 on a 860, and it did not like it too much. Many dialog boxes were oversized. I hope that will be addressed on v. 2

Keep up the great work guys, it's greatly appreciated. I wish I had the skills to lend a hand...