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TonyOlsen
I've been a little disappointed to find out that some of the apps for the Zaurus (especially those that come with it) aren't "full" versions of those apps. Zaurus has a "full Linux Kernel"... but only "watered down" versions of many apps? The Zaurus is powerful enough, has enough memory, and (with recent changes in the 2 GB CF market) has enough disk storage... why aren't large "full" opensource apps being ported to the Zaurus. For example:

Forget HancomSheets... how about "OpenOffice" (complete!) on the Zaurus? I have 100 MB... no problem!

Forget NetFront and Opera... how about the ENTIRE Opera (with ALL of the features) on the Zaurus?

Forget MPlayer, MoviePlayer, MediaPlayer, tkcVideo, etc... (all of which only support a small subset of codecs)... how about all of the codecs on the Zaurus and a full opersource player (with all of the bells and whistles). It doesn't bother me if the codec porting makes the codec sub-optimized... that's fine, because with a wider range of codecs I could work with smaller bitrates and smaller files, while sohuld even things out a little. smile.gif

In a sense I suspect many developers "water down" a product so that it "can work on the Zaurus". Can't the Zaurus handle the full version? I know this is a HUGE list. What are some of the concerns with this concept?

I looked at the MapQuest PDA webpage... and it's so tiny. The regular MapQuest works just fine on my 640x480 VGA Zaurus... I don't need "PDA" version of stuff. smile.gif

I mention this because I'm planning on retiring my laptop to my children and jumping in with both feet into the Zaurus as my main and ONLY computer. ...but it seems like some still (if only subconsiously) think of the Zaurus as a powerful PDA instead of an actual computer. Let's have the apps represent a "real computer" and have full installations. What do you think? smile.gif

Hey... if Stratagus (WarCraft II) can work on the Zaurus, then we can do anything!! biggrin.gif smile.gif

I know this posting will probably result in a few of the Zaurus developers chasing me with a shotgun (doom style) :wink: ... just fun stuff to think about. smile.gif
lardman
MPlayer - I use this on my desktop box
TonyOlsen
Yes... but it was my understanding that the Zaurus port of MPlayer only has a small subset of the codecs. Did I understand that correctly?

For example, can the Zaurus version of MPlayer play RealVideo, Windows Media, Quicketime, DIVX 5.0, and all of the codecs found in the K-Lite Codec pack, Nemo Codec Pack, and others? "All" of my desktop players (and I have about 6 of them) can. (Yes, I can play RealVideo and Quicktime in my "Classic Media Player" on my windows desktop). Can it play trailers strait off of people's websites? Can it play the non-copyrighted videos found on KaZaA?
DrWowe
You know, I actually like Opera and Netfront for the Zaurus. (I just wish they were opensource so I could customize the keybindings a bit). Small is good. Small is fast. Small fits in internal flash ROM. I use my Zaurus as a quick-access mobile device that supplements my laptop.

But for your purposes, you should try something like PocketWorkstation or Gentoo, or something like that. The Zaurus is flexible enough to let you choose to use it that way if you want.
jabbath
Hi!
The Zaurus is and is not ment to be a "Full Computer". smile.gif
To sell the zaurus as a "Full Computer", it is to slow. You see, i think of "Zaurus" as a PDA.
First of all, I would never give my Laptop away, I also wouldn't recommend it to you wink.gif
If you don't want to use NetFront and Opera, just use pdaXrom with FireFox.
I also use mplayer on my Laptop. So, if you want to have more codecs, compile a new mplayer for your needs, or wait for somebody, doing this for you smile.gif
If you want to use your zaurus as a PC, just install pdaXrom and compile some extra apps. It should work and look fine.

grusz, jabbath
TonyOlsen
QUOTE
So, if you want to have more codecs, compile a new mplayer for your needs, or wait for somebody, doing this for you


I thought the player was separate from the codecs... The codec are the decompression libraries that the player uses. You can add to and take away from that list without affecting the player. Am I wrong on this? Does MPlayer come with ALL of the latest codecs "built in"?

QUOTE
The Zaurus is and is not ment to be a "Full Computer".


In regards to the 320x240 Zauri I would have to agree with you.... but the 640x480 VGA Zaurus as a clamshell... you know that there are Japanese who use this instead of their laptop. smile.gif I would say that at least 1 of the Zaurus SL-Cxx0 series designers was thinking of "tiny laptop" when they built this.

Maybe they owned an HP 200LX too and have been waiting for a replacement laptop. smile.gif
DrWowe
The hardware in a modern Z is no worse than a typical desktop PC of 5-6 years ago. However, people's expectations have evolved as computers have gotten faster, which is why it's difficult to imagine running modern software on a 400mhz machine with "only" 64 megs of RAM.
jabbath
QUOTE
I thought the player was separate from the codecs... The codec are the decompression libraries that the player uses. You can add to and take away from that list without affecting the player. Am I wrong on this? Does MPlayer come with ALL of the latest codecs "built in"?

Sorry smile.gif Yes, you are right.
QUOTE
but the 640x480 VGA Zaurus as a clamshell... you know that there are Japanese who use this instead of their laptop

I own a C760. Personally, I think the Zaurus can't replace a laptop. It is just to slow. The display isn't the whole device. The main lacks of the zaurus are the small processor ("just" 400MHz smile.gif) and the little RAM. On my Laptop (Athlon 2400+ with "just" 256MB RAM) I use gnome2.6. I can hardly imagine to use gnome on a device with 400MHz and 64MB of RAM.
I shouldn't say, the zaurus is "too slow", because it is the most impressing device, I've ever seen.
If you think of the zaurus as a Laptop, you will say it is to slow. But if you look at it as a PDA it is too fast smile.gif
So, I just considered, I don't look at the Zaurus as a PDA or a PC but just as a ZAURUS smile.gif
I love it and I think, using QTopia and X11, the Zaurus is as I wanted it to be.

There also would be some things I'd love to improve (ported 2.6Kernel,MUCH more RAM, faster Processor, full SDIO, USBHost, WLAN, Bluetooth). But the Zaurus is nearly perfect.

Nevertheless, I use a PC and I would NEVER give away PC-Performance smile.gif

cheers, jabbath
Teletubbie
Hi,
I have a 5500. It is not a laptop. It is not a PDA. As I can read on the case it seems to be a "personal mobile tool".
DrWowe
QUOTE
Hi,
I have a 5500. It is not a laptop. It is not a PDA. As I can read on the case it seems to be a "personal mobile tool".


I agree! I feel the same way about my 6000.
roderickv
Personally, for the amount of browsing I do from the Zaurus I can live with NetFront, (although I use and love Firefox on my desktop) and the music player is fine. A bullet proof PIM and Open office on the Zaurus would be all that I think it lacks right now. HancomWord and sheet and presentation, just don't get it. Is anyone looking into Open office on the Zaurus? I understand Firefox and Thunderbird are already available for pdaxrom, the addition of openoffice would be great!
ChrisZaurus
LOL Teletubbie. laugh.gif

I also like to think of the Zaurus as a personal mobile tool. It is a great encompassing description of the Zaurus (now note that I am using a 5600, I may feel a little different about my Zaurus if I had one of the clamshell models). I don't have a laptop, so this does kindof suffice for now, but when I do get a lappy, I would use the Z as a network discovery tool (kismet) and then connect to the network on my Lappy (my imaginary Dell laptop :? ). That would be an example of a use of the Zaurus as a tool. But then come in situations like streaming movies to my Zaurus, while sitting outside of my house smoking.. That's where the Personal part of the Zaurus comes in. But as far as big time computing tasks, leave it to the laptops. I love my Zaurus smile.gif
amrein
Psion, HP95/100/200LX device are PDA. Palm and Pocket PC ruin the word 'PDA'.

Don't worry, new smartphone will be able to ruin your PMT (personal mobile tool) abbreviation.
Miami_Bob
QUOTE
Psion, HP95/100/200LX device are PDA. Palm and Pocket PC ruin the word 'PDA'.


Sorry, amrein, but I have to *very* strongly disagree here. The 100 & 200LX were capable of running 99.9% of ALL software that ran on the original IBM PC & PC/XT machines.

THAT is *not* a PDA. THAT, friend, is a full sized computer in the palm of your hand, aka a PALMTOP (as opposed to LAPtop). PDA did not become a catch word till the Newton showed up later and started the marketing trend away from the clamshell & keyboard format.

I know because I was active on the old CIS HP fora from the git go. The REAL kiss of death, however, was when Micro$oft entered the portable OS market and convinced HP to kill the LX series in favor of the Jornadas.

THEN Palm began to emerge and (almost) everyone started to forget that the Jags & Cougars were the first TRUE *full* Palmtop computers.

Those who do not learn their history, and learn *from* it, are doomed to repeat it. Take note, Sharp Japan.

BTW: Psion came out a bit before the 95LX but in size & weight it certainly was NOT a PALMtop *and* it was totally proprietary, unlike the 95LX OS & software base. Only later did the Psions begin to come down in size & weight.

Someone should write a book about those events. I still have the CIS fora posts archived but no time to compile them.


Bob W
Miami FL
jabbath
I think, OpenOffice needs too much RAM.
CoreyC
Tony,

have you ever ran FireFox using pdaXrom? It's painfull. Yes the zaurus can handle Firefox, but I know I am not willing to wait 30-45 seconds for the program to load, and put up with the sluggish web browsing. Developers favor lightweight apps for the zaurus because they get the job done efficiently on the hardware.
Stubear
As I understand it, One of the biggest problems for developers porting to the Z is the lack of hardware floating point processor - this means that all floating point suff needs to be done in software slowing things down. This is especially a problem for the video/audio codecs as most of them have to be rewritten to ue the software floating point emulator.

Stu
ScottYelich
my 760 is a laptop replacement... but I know it has limitations... #1 is ram. #2 is processing power... #3 is screen. #4 is storage.

However, for what I do on it, I am 100% satisfied. This is far more than a PDA, but it is not the same as a 3GHz desktop...
or even a 2.xGHz laptop. OpenGL on the Zaurus? get real.

The only issue I have with the zaurus now is speed with mame and dos/windows/atari-st emulation... but native stuff -- it's just
fine.

My point is -- this beast will hold me over for 2-3 years until the first wave of powerful pda/palmtop computers comes out and
the price breaks. I do not need to upgrade every 6 months... I jumped from a 75 mhz p2 to a 500mhz celeron to a 3GHz p4.
ram went from 8mb (16) to 128 to 1gb (2gb). You run what you need at the time -- and most people, I feel, are just hardware
junkies. When I bought my last pc, it was like $20 for 20 or 30 GB of disk space! 2.8GHz p4 to 3.0GHz was like $50 or something.
that's $50 for 200MHz. Already we see the 500mhz arm.

instead of trying to make the Z what is it not, why not just use what it is to the fullest. If anyone wants kde on the thing, compile and run it (hi sashz!).
Many program "suites" these days do not want to play nicely in 32mb ram or even 64. Yet, there are so many individual programs or stripped
programs that will give 80% or more of what you need that *will* behave.

Scott
khim
QUOTE
I think, OpenOffice needs too much RAM.

I've used OpenOffice on Pentium-200 system with 48MB RAM. Is was usable. Slow, but usable. Even latest version. Zaurus is actually faster and has bigger HDD (ok, my Zaurus has bigger HDD).

But I do not like to reflash everything every time I switch from laptop mode (pdaXrom) to PDA mode - that's my current problem!
amrein
All those posts with emoticons put in wrong place... It hurts me. You don't know how to pass your emotions? Man... (and particularly computer scientists...)

Miami_Bob, I looked your avatar face closely and... and...
Yes master, you are rigth. HP LX series was real micro laptop with dos operating system. But they was also PDA because they was including all software needed for PIM, text editing, Spread Sheet, World Time, finance and a calculator... and was tiny.

What you are debating is what define a PDA. Is a PDA a device with build-in applications for PIM and a few other for everyday use and which are small enough to fit in your pocket? Is a PDA is a device that doesn't execute PC X86 programs? Does my Psion Revo with the PC 80x186 emulator loose the PDA label because it can run most dos software (all LX software too as it was including the wall LX200 interrupts to completely eat the HP software market)?

I agree with you in the fact that we could use Palmtop instead of PDA when those device use a keyboard.

CODE
THEN Palm began to emerge and (almost) everyone started to forget that the Jags & Cougars were the first TRUE *full* Palmtop computers.


You see. You too you use both words. Jags & Cougars were using Mac OS or DOS?
We could say that Sharp Zaurus SL-CXX0 are Palmtop and Sharp Zaurus SL-5x00 and SL-6000 series are PDA. PIM+software but with the keyboad and a big use of the screen can make the difference. Or perhaps I'm missing something. Difficult to be decisive, isn't it? SL series have keyboard and run an operating system as powerfull as a full ARM Linux PC...

Note: ARM device can execute Debian ARM or Netwinder Redhat 9, or ... and there're PC powered by ARM processor that are still sold nowadays. DOS is not the only full OS that worked on PDA (fortunately). So how could we call all those device?

You still love your HP LX. Me too. Mine is lays in front of me, at 1meter behind the monitor. If you call the Newton a PDA, don't PPC and PalmPilot break the name too?

Have fun.
Ethereal
QUOTE
We could say that Sharp Zaurus SL-CXX0 are Palmtop and Sharp Zaurus SL-5x00 and SL-6000 series are PDA.


The only obvious distinction between SL-Cxxx and SL-6000 is usability of the built-in KB with the screen in landscape mode.
Miami_Bob
[quote]All those posts with emoticons put in wrong place... It hurts me. You don't know how to pass your emotions? Man... (and particularly computer scientists...) [/quote]

Please, expand on that. I don't think that I fully understand.

[quote]Miami_Bob, I looked your avatar face closely and... and... Yes master, you are right.[/quote]

Awwwww. You're just sweet talking cause I'm old & fat & green <G>.

[quote] HP LX series was real micro laptop with dos operating system. But they was also PDA because they was including all software needed for PIM, text editing, Spread Sheet, World Time, finance and a calculator... and was tiny.

What you are debating is what define a PDA.[/quote]

OK, I agree completely. A PALMTOP *can* also function as a PDA. But a PDA is *not* necessarily (or even usually, IMHO) a PALMTOP. HP also made a 200LX branch off that did not have the PIM apps. A palmtop, but not, as it came from HP, a PDA. Palmtops are general computers. PDAs are PIM specific systems (IMHO). A "lower" order of computer. Sorta like an embedded microwave controller, for example.

[quote] Is a PDA a device with build-in applications for PIM and a few other for everyday use and which are small enough to fit in your pocket? [/quote]

Depends on what else it can be made to do, I would say. But, in general, "yes".

[quote] Is a PDA is a device that doesn't execute PC X86 programs? [/quote]

Not necessarily. But a device that can run more general programs than PIM apps certainly begins to rise above mere PDA level.

[quote] Does my Psion Revo with the PC 80x186 emulator loose the PDA label because it can run most dos software (all LX software too as it was including the wall LX200 interrupts to completely eat the HP software market)? [/quote]

Yep. A PDA on steroids <G>.

[quote] I agree with you in the fact that we could use Palmtop instead of PDA when those device use a keyboard. [/quote]

Not necessarily. I have a little Radio Shack EL-6996 / 65-1219 "Personal Organizer" that someone gave me (I take in 'stray' gadgets & computer equipment) [the EL-6996 is actually made by Sharp *for* RS, BTW] that has a full QWERTY keyboard. But it is *only* a very primitive PDA (or PO) despite the fairly usable keyboard.

CODE
THEN Palm began to emerge and (almost) everyone started to forget that the Jags & Cougars were the first TRUE *full* Palmtop computers.


[quote] You see. You too you use both words. Jags & Cougars were using Mac OS or DOS? [/quote]

Sorry. Falling back on bad old habits. The HP95LX was code named Jaguar while in development and the 100/200LX were Cougars. Those names were used as affectionate shorthand on the old CIS fora.

[quote] We could say that Sharp Zaurus SL-CXX0 are Palmtop and Sharp Zaurus SL-5x00 and SL-6000 series are PDA. PIM+software but with the keyboad and a big use of the screen can make the difference. Or perhaps I'm missing something. Difficult to be decisive, isn't it? SL series have keyboard and run an operating system as powerfull as a full ARM Linux PC... [/quote]

Oh, no. I consider both types of Zaurii as full fledged "palmtops" with PDA functionality! The keyboard & screen make many uses easier for some of us, but are not essential, IMHO, to the definition of "more than *just* a 'simple' PDA".

[quote] Note: ARM device can execute Debian ARM or Netwinder Redhat 9, or ... and there're PC powered by ARM processor that are still sold nowadays. DOS is not the only full OS that worked on PDA (fortunately). So how could we call all those device? [/quote]

Actually, most PDAs that were not palmtops ran proprietary OSs, if I recall right. Nor is the processor, IMHO, a definition. Its the versatility of the machine that determines its category in my system of taxonomy.

[quote] You still love your HP LX. Me too. Mine is lays in front of me, at 1meter behind the monitor. [/quote]

The HP's were a life long dream come true for a compulsive note taker and absent minded academic lime myself. How could one ever forget a "first love" like that? <G> Almost every old LX user that I know of says the same things.

If you haven't already, pop over to:

http://www.zaurususergroup.com/index.php?n...iewtopic&t=4220

"A question for old 95lx/100lx/200LX owners and users."

We're trying to find the best way to move the old LX database format files over to the Zaurii. Give us your opinions! <g>

[quote] If you call the Newton a PDA, don't PPC and PalmPilot break the name too? [/quote]

One of the things that I have learned to accept is that not everyone (or even MOST people) are wireheads like myself & some of my friends. One of the signs of a "mature" technology is that it has began to become simple enough for the masses to use. And that the "hobbiests" gradually tend to fade out.

Look at automobiles. Radio. So forth. So now that is happening in desktops & (more slowly) portables. Turn key, no brainer, plug'n'p(l)ay devices. My brother is an intellegent man but he would be frustrated to apoplexy by a C860.

But he loves his Palm & uses it every day. Even a bit beyond the mere PDA level since he uses Mapopolis with a GPS system and loves using his Planetarium software under the night sky.

He does NOT like Gates & Micro$oft, but he doesn't have the time or inclination (yet) to learn all it takes to get Linux up on a mission critical 24x7x365 desktop system.

There will always be more Palm users than Zaurii users. Unless Sharp sells out and dumbs down the Zaurii REALLY hard. Thats what makes *us* the alpha technoids <G>.

The best that we can really hope for (IMHO again) is that Linux can be made sufficiently "user friendly" to compete yet not totally loose the innovative hacker edge & community spirit.

[quote]Have fun.[/quote]

And you, my friend. Thanks for the chance to bounce ideas about. It always helps me clarify in my own mind when I have to explain my odeas to someone who asks good questions! <G>


Best to -

Bob W
Miami FL
Inuyasha
IMHO (being typed from a Zaurus...), the Zaurus falls under neither the PDA category nor the palmtop category.

Why? Well look at the "original" PDAs... Those old Palms. I've got a Palm V somewhere in my house, of course it's mostly unused, but that was one of the original PDAs, 8MB memory, black/white screen, who knows how slow a processor. But it did what it was meant to, so it was used widely. That was a PDA. It was used to store adresses, phone numbers, calendars, and text. It couldn't browse the web, nor do much else.

And a palmtop? Well, IMHO, its something that has more or less the ability to run desktop software well. The Zaurus doesn't do this. It runs scaled down, speedy versions of desktop software, but is far more featureful than more straight PDAs, like then Sony Clie, and the Palms. But it's not a desktop.

So what is it? I can't really call it much other than the name it deserves. The Zaurus.
TonyOlsen
QUOTE
The hardware in a modern Z is no worse than a typical desktop PC of 5-6 years ago. However, people's expectations have evolved as computers have gotten faster, which is why it's difficult to imagine running modern software on a 400mhz machine with "only" 64 megs of RAM.


QUOTE
I own a C760. Personally, I think the Zaurus can't replace a laptop. It is just to slow.


That's what I mean't. The Zaurus CAN replace a desktop of about 5-6 years ago. I actually have a computer from 5-6 years ago which I owuld like to replace with my Zaurus. I don't do 3d gaming, and I only use low bitrate video codecs, and so everything else should work fine on the Zaurus. You shouldn't need anything more than 100 MHz to run a word editor, XLS, or web development software.

It cracks me up that most ISP software says things like "You need a 1 GHz Pentium 4 or greater to access the Internet". Woah! I'm glad the people almost 20 years ago who invented the first conceptual "Internet" didn't know this... they only had mer 4 MHz, or slower, machines. ...and yet they still did e-mail and primitive HTML... (The actual numbers and dates are a little fuzzy in my memory and I may have gotten some of them wrong... please correct me if you know better about this).

For everything I need (as opposed to want) in my Laptop, the Zaurus promises to do just fine. =) For other stuff, I'll simply VNC (KeyPebble) to a machine which can do the rest... either way, everything I need would be in the palm of my hand.

But doesn't the SL-C860 have enough juice, power, memory, etc, to run a full version of OpenOffice, and other applications? Can't we put more "real full-versioned" desktop software on the Zaurus? Would it be a simple port, or is it more complicated than that?
TonyOlsen
QUOTE
The REAL kiss of death, however, was when Micro$oft entered the portable OS market and convinced HP to kill the LX series in favor of the Jornadas.


:cry: *sob* *sniff*... I still remember the day they killed the 200LX "Palmtops". Like I said in a previous post, this has heppended a few times in history, and each time the circle comes around the Full-computer Inter-based Palmtops" got/get bigger and bigger. HP 95LX, 100LX, and 200LX dispapeared. A while later there was the IBM PC110, which also died. Then came the Toshiba Libretto, which also died. Then came the Sony Vaio, which also died. Now you can't buy Intel-Based Full-Computer laptops anymore.

...but then can the clamshell VGA Zauri... and those of us who were used to have Full-Sized computers in the palms of our hands are looking for the Zaurus to become a 200LX replacement. The 200LX was 8 MHz, 2 MB+ RAM... I think the Zaurus would make a good substitute... even though it doesn't support Intel-based applications. (See my many other threads on Intel x86 Emulators... there aren't any good ones that are working for the Zaurus). I'm willing to let go of the Intel compatibility if I can find a non-Intel replacement for the applications I need.

...And I'm "really" close right now... minus the things I listed at teh top of this thread.

QUOTE
The 100 & 200LX were capable of running 99.9% of ALL software that ran on the original IBM PC & PC/XT machines.


I agree! The Zaurus "could" also be a replacement for that if the mentality of the Zaurus being only a PDA or "Personal Mobile Tool" could be persuaded towards a "Palmtop". That's the purpose of this thread. The only thing holding it back is the persistance that the Zaurus can't do all of the things we need from our laptops.

Besides... Can't the Linux run faster than Windows? Won't that make up for some of the speed difference between the 1 GHz Windows Laptop and the 400 MHz Linux Palmtop?
TonyOlsen
QUOTE
Yes the zaurus can handle Firefox, but I know I am not willing to wait 30-45 seconds for the program to load, and put up with the sluggish web browsing.


I don't understand... why is it so slow? Will Firefox not run very well on a 400 MHz desktop machine? I thought desktop Linux apps were memory and CPU friendly... did I misunderstand that? I ran older versions of IE on my 66 MHz 486... why is it that the recent version of Linux Firefox browser requires a much faster computer?

...Are Linux apps getting bloated too?
Ethereal
QUOTE
It cracks me up that most ISP software says things like "You need a 1 GHz Pentium 4 or greater to access the Internet". Woah! I'm glad the people almost 20 years ago who invented the first conceptual "Internet" didn't know this... they only had mer 4 MHz, or slower, machines. ...and yet they still did e-mail and primitive HTML... (The actual numbers and dates are a little fuzzy in my memory and I may have gotten some of them wrong... please correct me if you know better about this).


There is only [url=http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa040100a.htm]one authoratative source.
roderickv
I love this stuff! What a great discussion! Forgive me I should just shut up and listen as a new C860 owner, but I just can't!

I have had quite a few devices in my day including the Palm, numerous WinCE devices, Psion 5MX (still have that one) and my favorite the Sharp Zaurus ZR-5800 which I also still have! For the most part I agree that labeling devices as a PDA, Palmtop, PMT, Handheld Device, etc. doesn't really make all that much difference. I think the difference is how it is intended to be used, or actually used. The trend with most manufacturers of hand held devices now days are to focus on extending the desktop (Palm winCE, etc). These devices do little more than PIM functionality. Where as my original Zaurus ZR-5800 was a closed system but it had all the necessary apps I needed to use it as a stand alone device. With a keyboard large enough to touch-type on, I could link contacts address and events to documents and spreadsheets, print from it, run telnet sessions, get email, basic database functions, etc. But the operating system was proprietary and Sharp refused to release the SDK to the public. The new Zaurus C-series is the closest thing I have seen to the original Zaurus line, and Sharp has learned from its mistakes. The C860 is a thing of beauty and far from an extension of ones desktop. Of course you can't compare it with a desktop. You can't compare a laptop to a desktop. You sacrifice performance for size every time, but it is, with out a doubt the closest thing I have ever seen to a mini laptop (palmtop) in both form and function. It still needs a lot of work, but because of the hard work and dedication of folks like you, I am confident improvements will continue. That is why I own one today.
TonyOlsen
(This is what happens when I don't read a thread for 3+ days. smile.gif )

QUOTE
The Zaurus doesn't do this. It runs scaled down, speedy versions of desktop software, but is far more featureful than more straight PDAs, like then Sony Clie, and the Palms. But it's not a desktop.


...but I don't understand why that has to be. Can't the Zaurus run the same apps that my 200 MHz 32 MB Desktop linux machine runs? For those of us that think of the Zaurus as a "Palmtop" and more than a simple PDA or even a "Personal Mobile Tool"... can't we get a movement going to get the desktop linux software on the Zaurus?... the full versions? ... the "real" stuff? ...nothing "scaled down"?
locutus
Why are there not more full blown GNU/Linux applications for the Z?

Screen size( remember there are many many 5x00 versions out there ), Memory size, cpu, and the default SDK( Qtopia is not full Qt ) are IMHO, why there are not more full blown GNU/Linux apps running on the Z these days.

Also IMO, the price of the 6000 will keep it a niche device and development for it less than mainstream. But, the screen size, memory, and cpu of the 6000( plus host USB support ) are big plus's in it's favor for the POSIBILITY of fullblown GNU/Linux apps running on it.
padishah_emperor
Oh I wish I'd noticed this thread before, but I've been too busy beta testing a *full blown* commercial application. Say no more...

Ok Tony, why can't you have these things, well you can, if you have sufficient RAM, swap and diskspace you CAN have OpenOffice but it will crawl along, why? because floating point operations need to be emulated, this slows things down to a crawl. If you want to run "full applications", get a cross compiler and do it, what's the problem?

But OpenOffice, Mozilla, GIMP, Evolution etc will be SLOW! I run GIMP on my Z, compared to a 400MHz PC it's slow. Porting code with a heavy reliance on the FPU will always run slow the Z's processor. OpenOffice is a PITA on my 800MHz PC, it's tear jerkingly slow on a 400MHz PC, I'd die of old age running it on a Z, it's enourmous!

Linux codecs, well most of them require FPU operations and many are illegal hacks anyway I'm sure, but again speed is the problem. If you want them, get the source and compile it. In short 'full blown' applications require two things, your effort in compiling them and the patience of a saint.

Why are there no full blown applications? Because you haven't compiled them yet.

As for PDA vs Palmtop..
A PDA is a handheld computer, usually tablet form with a stylus, such as PocketPC/WinCE, Palm etc. They are designed as PIM tools and sync with a PC or Laptop. Their primary use is for storing personal data like appoinments and phone numbers. The PDA as a concept is merging into phone technology, this will have only one effect, the manufacturers will cash in on our irrational love of changing phones like one changes underpants. But, the cattle-majority will chase this one like they are chasing video phones here in the UK right now, I don't see the appeal of watching 2fps 10x10 pixel video... ho!

A Palmtop is a full computer, it is used in ways that are similar to a desktop machine, although it may or may not replace a desktop/laptop's functions. A Palmtop has a form factor similar to a laptop or OS/Apps like one. The Zaurus is a Palmtop which *can* do some PDA functions, I get really pissed off with one individual who constantly tells me my Palmtop is mere PDA, it's insulting. It can do PDA stuff, but that is not what it is primarily for. That is why Sharp call it a Personal Mobile Tool, not a PDA. In fact I pass wind with rage at the thought, it's like these idiots who buy the most obscure device known to man (our Z) and wonders how to put PocketPC on it, grrr!

MANY HP LXers like myself came to the Z, why? Because it's the dream machine, a full Palmtop with Linux and multimedia and all the bells and whistles. People who come to the Z from a 'PDA' background, unless they specifically want to learn Linux, will always want a PDA and will not be happy unless Sharp downgrade the Zaurus into a PIM tool - it evolved from that, it's not going to go back.

I do BTW use my Z as a laptop replacement, and as time goes on, more of a desktop replacement. I looked seriously into getting a UNIX laptop a couple of years back, like the Tadpole which ran Solaris. The Z filled that gap completely, it also filled any requirement I may have had for a PDA.

x86 compatibility in my opinion is touted too much, is an UltraSPARC system any less of a machine? UNIX has always been run on divergent hardware, as is Linux.

I've said it before and I will again, the problem with the Z isn't the hardware or software, it's people with talent wasting it on producing things like pdaXrom or OPIE (this is not a personal attack) instead of writing or porting applications. Qtopia, X/Qt and Java should be sufficient for deployment.

I'm not going to upset anyone by putting smiley faces in my posting, but I am smiling with gooey fuzzy glee! Believe it or face the trebuchet.
DrWowe
QUOTE
But OpenOffice, Mozilla, GIMP, Evolution etc will be SLOW! I run GIMP on my Z, compared to a 400MHz PC it's slow. The Z has a RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computing) processor (derived from Acorn's ARM processors), code written to make use of RISC technology will outperform a CISC (Complex Instruction Set...) processor (like x86 PC's) when matched at equal clock speed. But porting CISC optimised code with a heavy reliance on the FPU will always run slow on a RISC chip.


This is wrong. The XScale is slow on FPU operations simply because it doesn't have an FPU, it has nothing to do with RISC. There is no more RISC vs CISC debate. Read this article, then come back:

http://arstechnica.com/cpu/4q99/risc-cisc/rvc-1.html

QUOTE
I've said it before and I will again, the problem with the Z isn't the hardware or software, it's people with talent wasting it on producing things like pdaXrom or OPIE (this is not a personal attack) instead of writing or porting applications. Qtopia, X/Qt and Java should be sufficient for deployment.


Don't lump them together. pdaXrom I sort of agree is a little silly (although who are you to tell someone they SHOULDN't put X on their Zaurus. It's all about freedom, remember?). Opie is a different thing altogether. It's an attempt to restore the open source philosophy to the closed source Sharp version of Qtopia. Nothing more, nothing less. It's basically the same thing, only better. In fact, I would like nothing more than OpenZaurus to be the de-facto "standard" upgrade that everyone wants to install first thing after taking their Z out of the box. That day is a ways off, though...
padishah_emperor
QUOTE
This is wrong. The XScale is slow on FPU operations simply because it doesn't have an FPU, it has nothing to do with RISC. There is no more RISC vs CISC debate.


Yep, I'm talking total crap, after a few coffees and a re-read I don't know what I was on about, I was trying to say that FPU operations needed to be emulated, but it looks like it all came out wrong. That's what happens after being awake too long. So I've edited it. ;-)


QUOTE
Don't lump them together. pdaXrom I sort of agree is a little silly (although who are you to tell someone they SHOULDN't put X on their Zaurus. It's all about freedom, remember?). Opie is a different thing altogether. It's an attempt to restore the open source philosophy to the closed source Sharp version of Qtopia. Nothing more, nothing less. It's basically the same thing, only better. In fact, I would like nothing more than OpenZaurus to be the de-facto "standard" upgrade that everyone wants to install first thing after taking their Z out of the box. That day is a ways off, though...


mmh, not sure what you're getting so excited about. I was just making the observation that the amount of effort which goes into creating alternate OSes IF focussed into application development would solve a lot of the gripes most users have. I'm not sure where I said nobody can install X, I'll read through my post again...
Inuyasha
QUOTE
In fact, I would like nothing more than OpenZaurus to be the de-facto "standard" upgrade that everyone wants to install first thing after taking their Z out of the box.  That day is a ways off, though...


I think alot of Z users would like to throw OpenZaurus on their Z as soon as they find OZ. The problem is simply this: compatibility. It does not run exceedingly well on anything but the 5000 or 5500. With 3.3.6pre1, it does run on all of them, but still has issues, with both WLAN and with ipkg (speaking about the 5600, since thats what I have), and I believe it also has these problems with the other Zaurii too.
DrWowe
I'm just saying, the Opie team DOES produce a lot of apps, which even can run on Sharp's rom, because it's also based on Qtopia. I think you're mischaracterizing it by lumping it with pdaXrom, which is totally alternate, different, etc. Opie isn't wasted effort, IMO.
TonyOlsen
QUOTE
If you want to run "full applications", get a cross compiler and do it, what's the problem?


That's the eventual plan, but I currently am overcoming a sharp learning curve with Linux. I don't know how to do most of the things that everyone else considers common sense. I would LOVE to get my own compiler setup on the Zaurus (gcc or is there something else?), and then I could have more freedom to do these things myself... but I'm not there yet. Right now I don't even really know how a cross compiler works, nor how to set one up.

I have been putting a lot of effort into getting any of the various x86 emulators to work on the Zaurus but it was all pointless... there aren't any DOS emulators for the Zaurus that are currently working, unless you have pdaXrom, or unless you only run Linux binaries.

...but I'll keep learning and growing, until someday I hope to be an equal and then I can start helping more than I am asking for help. smile.gif

QUOTE
I do BTW use my Z as a laptop replacement, and as time goes on, more of a desktop replacement.


Cool! smile.gif

QUOTE
x86 compatibility in my opinion is touted too much


It has a limited need. I'm not seeking it so that I cab fell that this is a "complete OS machine"... I already feel that. Although the "Z" is currently only 90% of a replacement for my 200LX because there's 1 important DOS program I have which can't be compiled for the Zaurus (from what I've understood) because the source code isn't available.

QUOTE
I'm not going to upset anyone by putting smiley faces in my posting, but I am smiling with gooey fuzzy glee! Believe it or face the trebuchet.


LOL! biggrin.gif
cwaig
A lot of the codec support in MPlayer on the desktop comes from it's ability to load Windows codec DLL's. You can't use that approach on the Zaurus (it's not x86, so it cann't use an x86 windows codec), hence the more restricted list of available codec's on the Zaurus.
TonyOlsen
That was my understanding as well... but isn't there a way to cross-compile the x86 codecs to ARM?
zenyatta
You'd have to have the source code that could be cross-compiled... at least I'm not aware of any tool for "converting" x86 binary to arm. With the Windows codecs you don't have the source code so it's the same problem as you have with your DOS legacy app.

z.
pgas
Use pdaxrom, you ave full thunderbird, full firefox, full abiword, full gnumeric... but then I don't think you can run all these apps at the same time unless you have a very slow swap file. Firefox takes about 30 seconds to start, I let you make a guess for open office....

As for RealVideo, Windows Media, Quicketime codecs, I think they are based on a hacked version of the windows binaries (for x86 processor).

Note also that as close as a 760 might be to a mini laptop, it's still not the same (screen much smaller, mouse != stylus..., less ram...) , and apps with a UI that takes this into account are a good thing IMHO.
padishah_emperor
QUOTE
I'm just saying, the Opie team DOES produce a lot of apps, which even can run on Sharp's rom, because it's also based on Qtopia.  I think you're mischaracterizing it by lumping it with pdaXrom, which is totally alternate, different, etc.  Opie isn't wasted effort, IMO.


Well, we are all entitled to our own opinions, I agree with you to a point. But I think the general lack of interest in OPIE is symptomatic of the fact that with the newer machines (excluding the 6000 maybe), most people either fall into two main groups: pdaXrom or Cacko QT ROM. There appears (from my own observation) little interest in OPIE. I did give it a try when I had a 5500, it felt buggy and the apps felt "cut down", just the kind of thing Tony has been talking about, plus there were too many issues getting Hancom to work, getting Java to work etc etc etc. I COULD be wrong, I'm not the Oracle of Delphi, it may be better now, but I really wanted OPIE to work for me but it didn't, now I have a 860, I wouldn't even want to try, by what I've heard it's still buggy and out of date. Also with all these lovely apps being recompiled for pdaXrom, is there any reason why these could not have been compiled for X/Qt? Then all these apps would be available to all users.

DrWowe you are obviously aching for battle, I'm all armoured up and ready for Flame Wars: Episode II. Are you running OPIE? :twisted:

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
padishah_emperor
QUOTE
As for RealVideo, Windows Media, Quicketime codecs, I think they are based on a hacked version of the windows binaries (for x86 processor).


That's my understanding, my system is setup that way with Win32 codecs.

QUOTE
Note also that as close as a 760 might be to a mini laptop,  it's still not the same..


mmh, yep, depending on what you need a laptop for in the first place, it replaces MY need for a laptop. I can do wordprocessing, spreadsheets fine with Hancom, I can watch movies and listen to music, do coding or even experiment with Java's black arts, so I'm alright jack. :-) But others will have other needs of course.
DrWowe
QUOTE
There appears (from my own observation) little interest in OPIE


I agree, but probably because it's not stable, not because of the concept.

QUOTE
Also with all these lovely apps being recompiled for pdaXrom, is there any reason why these could not have been compiled for X/Qt? Then all these apps would be available to all users.


Actually, that's a great idea. I think working on a feed with lots of X/Qt applications would be a great project.

QUOTE
DrWowe you are obviously aching for battle, I'm all armoured up and ready for Flame Wars: Episode II. Are you running OPIE?  :twisted:  


YOU'RE ON! But, I started a new thread to keep this one on-topic. smile.gif

Also, I'm wondering if you're confusing Opie and OpenZaurus. They're not the same thing. Opie is an open source fork of Qtopia and a collection of applications. OpenZaurus is a complete ROM that replaces the standard Sharp ROM, that includes Opie at its foundation. Opie itself runs just fine on standard ROMs.
padishah_emperor
QUOTE
YOU'RE ON!  But, I started a new thread to keep this one on-topic.  :)

Also, I'm wondering if you're confusing Opie and OpenZaurus.  They're not the same thing.  Opie is an open source fork of Qtopia and a collection of applications.  OpenZaurus is a complete ROM that replaces the standard Sharp ROM, that includes Opie at its foundation.  Opie itself runs just fine on standard ROMs.


Of course I'm not confusing them :-)
OZ was a non starter for me.
Can Opie be installed on my Cacko QT ROM on my C860 though? If so, I'd gladly give it another go.
DrWowe
Opie applications can definately be installed on Sharp ROM. They have a special feed at http://opie.handhelds.org/feed/sharprom/1.0.3/

Can't say for sure about Cacko, never tried it.
Stubear
Cacko is the sharp rom with the dictionary and translation files taken out and the Japanese helvetica (sp?) fonts replaced with European fonts - If it works on the sharp rom then it will work on the Cacko rom

Stu
Miami_Bob
WOW! What a GREAT thread, folks! Don't have the time right now to respond to all that I'd like to but will come back when I can.

QUOTE
IMHO (being typed from a Zaurus...), the Zaurus falls under neither the PDA category nor the palmtop category.

Why? Well look at the "original" PDAs... .......

And a palmtop? Well, IMHO, its something that has more or less the ability to run desktop software well.


Excellent point, Inuyasha. Although my own definition of palmtop is a bit broader.

QUOTE
The Zaurus doesn't do this. It runs scaled down, speedy versions of desktop software, but is far more featureful than more straight PDAs, like then Sony Clie, and the Palms. But it's not a desktop.


But, it COULD run full desktop software if the user desires! And, to me, thats the major factor. It COULD. No limits except those *we* put on it.

And, no, it is not a desktop, nor a laptop, nor restricted to "just" a PDA. It is a fully mobile, full featured palmtop format *computer* <G>.

I used the term "unconscious portability" for the 200LX because it was with me like my wallet & keys. 24/7/365 ready to rock.

QUOTE
So what is it? I can't really call it much other than the name it deserves. The Zaurus.


Truth there, but then we get into which version is "THE" Z (since the 5xxx/6000 *do* have differences due to form factor from the clamshells).

And "kickass little bundle of beautiful power" gets sorta longish <G> ...

(KALBOBP?)

Still, the way we (and outsiders) THINK & speak about these issues determines, to a great degree, the unspoken connotations behind how we & others view the potentials of the systems.

To classify the Zs as PDAs automatically limits the way potential buyers will view their useability. Unfortunately (IMHO), Sharp's "PMT" doesn't convey the essence of the machines to potential buyers & users.

I'm not *stuck* on palmtop, but what "is" a good alternative term?

Great thread!


Bob W
Miami FL
padishah_emperor
The thing I find remarkable is that we are all trying to define if the Z is a PDA or Palmtop, it's either or none depending on your needs and requirements. I think that proves what a unique family of machines these really are. I know one thing, it's a pocket Linux workstation, the only term or description I need :-)
Inuyasha
As a note to the OPIE discussion, IMHO, the best use of it is on the Sharp ROM, running with libopie (like on Zynergy for the 5600), using a few Opie applications, like OpieFtp, Oxygen (some of us do some chemistry -> I'm still in high school), and a few others available in the Sharp ROM feed. It probably shouldn't be used (currently) as a stand-alone system because it's a little unstable, and not working well on many of the Zaurii, but it is good to supplement Qtopia with.

QUOTE
(KALBOBP?)

Hmm, maybe if we can make it a little easier to pronounce it could stick...

KALBOP? Omit the beautiful? (Or just say it's a silent B tongue.gif)

QUOTE
I know one thing, it's a pocket Linux workstation, the only term or description I need

Probably the best description of the Zaurus yet (although I still vote for KALBOP tongue.gif)
omega
I think my Zaurus C860 has plenty of kick, especially when overclocked (for movies). Back in the day when i last used linux properly, it was on a 200mHz laptop with 32 MB RAM (I occasionally used Knoppix). It ran gnome without a problem, although i much prefered to use ICEWM for the pure speed of it. That was RedHat 6.0... I understand that there is no FPU, but that does not excuse crying about only 64Meg RAM.

From what i see, my Z can have several applications open at once, and it never fills up the RAM. I use it for movie playing, music playing, Hancom Word & Excel. And of course i'm always looking at System Info whenever i have a moment! ;-)

I only have it a week ago today, so i will of course attempt to do more with it. I want to run Octave (Matlab clone) and a few other things... I came across a small older version of matlab for linux and i will try QEMU with this. I would also like to find a document somewhere telling me how to use SCUMMVM with my Sam & Max, DOTT CD's for example.

X/QT seems to work well, I've only used XMMS there so far - i have a problem with no fonts being displayed on the menus... Whoever above was suggesting that the feed for X/QT be developed, I agree fully. I like Cacko 1.21A, it seems to work well with me. I know that X/QT is not an optimised X-server but if all a person is doing is trying to run something like ABIWord, that would hopefully not be an issue.

I understand that PDAXROM is trying to bring pure open source to the Z, and also to provide an optimised X-Server, but according to the posts it seems that it is rather slow due to the lack of FPU and there also seems to be issues playing videos. When these issues are largely addressed, then it is probably the better choice for users, as most applications that you will want to port to the Z will need / take advantage of the optimised X-Server compared to X/QT.

But for NOW, my Most Wanted Applications for Cacko: ABIWORD or something similar(Hancom Word is little more than a text editor, but i like their speadsheet program.) , some kind of game like command & conquer - have been playing the demo of stragetic assult, i like. If anyone has suggestions for these, please post them!

I think another problem is the lack of documentation and feeds, or perhaps more to the point their consolidation into one location. I must confess that although i knew about several feeds, i only recently realised that www.zaurususergroup.com/feed exists! I think that the projects are too scattered, and that documentation should be gathered in one place, divided into sections for the different ROM's. I understand that people like to have their own websites, to publish their own articles there and have people come 'check their place out'. I think that even having a central document index on the ZUG, with just a link to these sites and a description under the appropriate sections would be beneficial.

Regarding the suggestions to compile the applications ourselves instead of asking, so that they DO exist for us all, what packages are needed to compile source code on the Z under Cacko? Why is libSDL in bits, i.e. that there are so many patched versions around on the ZUG?

BTW, the Cacko team have my appreciation and congratulations on such a good job!
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