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mussi
Seems like somebody more or less squarely hit the nail....if we had to choose between Qtopia and Opie to stay with the Z (we'll leave X11 ROMs like Cacko aside), which should go according to you?

Also read this article for some further clarification. However, I positively don't want a PalmOS layer stacked ontop of Linux just for some nice and fancy apps, and stuff that has an UI I personally ran from two years ago.

Just one thing - the Z should have the original Graffitiset handwriting recognition.
lpotter
What's the use of this poll, really? Opie and Qtopia are both equally capable. There is room for both, as well as GPE. Choice is a good thing.
Neither Qtopia nor Opie are going away.
mussi
The point is more that I wanted to communicate the fact that the Linux PDA market is pretty small and that concentrating could really, really, help. Think of what would have happened if there were two versions of PalmOS with different widgets, and apps compatible with one wouldn't be compatible with the other. Where would Palm Inc be today if that had happened?

Choice is not bad either, but we have to take our picks - having to carry two PDAs to have all the apps we'd like/need, or decide one's going to be sacrified.
zbones
What happened to the keep both option?

If you want a palm, then go Buy one!

If you want only the one rom, and like having things imposed on you then buy a pocket pc and enter their world of DRM and expensive closed source apps that don't work.

The zaurus is about choice. That's the whole point of open source And that's why I bought two of them.

If you don't like having a choice then go away from here, and don't try to impose your silly ideas on us!
tg
I agree with zbones 100%.
Zaurus is not about market share - it is and should remain cutting edge pda/mini laptop where people can experiment with whtever they choose. If you want a stable pda you can still use it as that if you stick with cacko (for sure it will be better and eve more stable than palm in a day or two when maslovsky releases new version). If new cacko will still not be stable enough for you ebay your Z and go with palm/pocketpc (my condolences if you decide to go there).
mussi
I couldn't impose any ideas on anybody, but the point is still open - given the bad state of the Linux PDA market in Europe and NA, we need something to become a bigger 'target' for PDA (that's why I left X11 ROMs out of the equation as they don't represent a real 'PDA' to me but rather a micro-workstation which has it's on requirements, merits and specs) manufacturers.

Having at least two different GUI toolchains (Qtopia, Opie) and multiple ROMs (Sharp,TKCRom for the first) doesn't really help, and as no hardware manufacturer who will put up with that, and there are preciously few hardwares where we can run on right now.

Except for newer HW from Sharp, did we get anything from other manufacturers which we can install Linux on? Did HP, after the original IPaqs, enable them for Linux. Go looking at the recent hardware (like the iPaq 2215, 2415, 4155, 4355, 4705 - execpt that they don't run Linux (yet)) and think about it. If I were HP (without Carly Fiorina - she's only interested in selling ink cartridges and such), I wouldn't start developing for a moving target like the current environment. And if we present a big manufacturer with a stable OS and widget environment (and of course the development/untested branches as well), we could maybe draw a manufacturer onto our side. Whether Qtopia or Opie - that's the open debate, and the goal of this poll to find out. Maybe this poll will also turn out some very interesting results. about the preferences of users.

We should make sure we do not depend on one hardware supplier, but we should rather expand the hardware possibilities soon - what happens if Sharp decides to drop all Linux Zaurii? Then the question of this poll becomes more or less a moot point. However, before it comes to that, we should concentrate our meager resources.

(and about all fears: before I buy a Pocket PC machine, I'll probably jump off a cliff, and Palm so far is dead in water as the Treo 650 still sucks, and that's about the only machine that could make me drool...).
nilch
Looking back a few years, this was the same argument being layed down againt Linux - the many flavours of Linux - Mandrake, RedHat, Debian etc etc - where each had its own installer, its own base system (that was why the LSB project was started).

And the argument went that why would any manufacturer taget such a moving market - where there was no standard - there was no ONE single OS base to port to.

But inspite of that Linux has been catching on - its not a consumer OS like Windows is , and maybe will never be, not because there is not ONE single choice like Windows, but because Linux never really started out to be so. It was totally an OS meant for choice. The same argument goes for Gnome and KDE. Now we can split hairs over whether having just one system would have furthered that system more in the market share sense of the term, but do the Linux users care ?

I object to distributions which just package only either Gnome or KDE and not both (apart from other windows managers). So do many others.

Linux on Zaurus is the same option provider to you. You can choose your base of softwares and GUI toolkit on the same hardware. In fact now it seems that the big corporation are catching on to the multiple choice option seeing that its more of a pro-consumer thing than looking at it as a market share thing.
I dont think the open source philosophy is at all about capturing market share, its more of a choice option firstly to users and that what is being carried on in the Zaurus world.

I see Opie and Qtopia as spreading the world of Linux PDA further than splitting the market share as you seem to see it. While Qtopia is good for the commercial world, where companies can embrace it within their business practices and contracts based systems, opie brings flexibility and innovation (and even eye candy if you want to call it that) and the symbiosis of Qtopia and Opie in some way is good for Linux PDA's.

And really the poll for such a topic was a silly idea, inspite of your arguments and debates. The debate might be worth it, but looking at the whole open source way of working at things in such a black and white manner just makes one feel that you don't understand open source and what it stands for in the first place.
ThC
You're talking about palm getting bigger and bigger due to it's OS but you also tell yourself that palm is dying because of this OS not evolving enough... that's what the opensource is all about, evolving again and again and so you need to have stable OS and some which are not as stable but always using the latest improvements... I think the question asked in first time is no use because it's allready known that Qtopia focuses on making a stable OS with widgets and everything while OPIE tends to do the same thing keeping every bit opensource and adding some more eyecandy but with less stability and no comercial management at all ... if companies want to build a linux pda they can ask Qtopia to build them an OS ... But I think PDA manufacturers aren't interrested in putting linux in their PDA when windows is still the #1 OS for the PC market .
Why would they ? Sharp just stopped selling Zauruses in US because they were'nt selling enough ... manufacturers want to make money so they need something that people will be able to use out of the box and wont fear ... and that's WindozeCE
What made PalmOS being able to have such a success was the fact they've been available before winCE PDAs so first pda users got used to it.
btw don't get me wrong ... I still believe a Linux based PDA could make it's way to US&EU markets but it will need a huge marketing campaign to be sold to people who are not using linux at home as they would have to see that a linux pda can be as easy of use as a winCE one
mussi
QUOTE
But I think PDA manufacturers aren't interrested in putting linux in their PDA when windows is still the #1 OS for the PC market .


Yet Palm, despite living in a Windows world, is still quite atop of the pile when looking at the market share. The problem here is more synchronizing. Mr PHB wants to have a PDA that syncs with Outlook, or possibly Lotus Notes.. If he can do that, he's mostly happy (oh well, being able ot install some funky presentation tools makes it even better, but that's what basically PDAs are all about.

In other words - we not only need an OS, but the tools on the host OS - unless, of course, we manage to get a PDA/micro laptop out that's a 'real' computer with all apps Mr PHB needs on it's own. The oQo is actually a step into that direction, and I don't think that idea is so bad.

The 'Tools around the PDA' is actually what keeps Palm in place, despite it being not a Windows PDA.

If we have the fool-proof 'tools around the pda' that make synchronizing a breeze, on PC and Mac (and of course, Linux), we might win with a market share, and of course, more enthusiasts. These tools must work on any PIM software on the Z, hence there's certainly ONE place where differences in the implementation would be disastrous. That's why I'm pretty allergic to KoPi, KaPi and how they're called (the other is usability on 320x240 screens - IMO KaPI and KoPI have been built to be used on Tosa).

However, the unification of PIM formats will not happen without some miracle, at least at the current point. IntelliSync does not really work with the MicroKDE pims.

So currently we have three issues:

a) apps
cool.gif synchronizing
c) kernel/base components (like glibc, libstdc++)
d) graphics toolchain/widgetset

As pointed out before, both are equally important. If we can sync correctly, Joe User might forget about the apps a little (unless they're games - but there we have LibSDL, and they're not too badly bound to a GUI toolkit, except for some commercial stuff).

Addressing the apps: There are a few cool things in QTopia, as well as Opie. When looking at ZSI, there are some worthy things . GPE also got a few interesting things.

So in order to have a few cool commercial games, we at least need to have part c) somehow fixed. Sorry folks for open source development, but I haven't seen killer games from there (apart from Sokoban, but that's for people that also like ABAP and COBOL dry.gif ).

This now leads to the bitter fact without a stable c), we will not likely get a stable and dependend d), which will in turn create problems with a), and sooner or later with cool.gif. If we get cool.gif running like a champ (which partly also depends on a) - but cool.gif can be realized with a library, it doesn't forcibly have to be built into the app), we can nail down c (to which we're more or less bound as long as we want SD/MMC compatibility), and of course, then comes again the original question of the poll - d). If we can decide on one Widget toolset, and every developer sticks with that decision, we might soon see some really, really cool apps, not forcibly open-source, though. What we all want are cool apps, and maybe even really useful apps. They come at a (non-monetary) price, though. In Japan, there are apps for the Z, and they mainly flourish over there because most Japanese Zaurus users probably use the Sharp ROM.

If we can get a-d together and make it work like it should, we stand a chance of having further HW, and maybe MickeyL and CoreDump hired by some company that develops Opie for a living.

However, I also suggest to read MickeyLs posting in that thread
for some further thoughs on the whole debate. I'm not completely agreeing with him, but the he's got a point on that matter, and he's the developer.
ScottYelich
I voted keep both.

Scott
acpkendo
I voted keep both too. Since both are open source, there's no reason not to. This lets good ideas from each side propagate to the other. Maybe its not necessarily consolidation that's needed, but rather cooperation. In this respect, I'm excited to see what Trolltech and Opie can learn from each other, especially given that lpotter is active in both communities.

Maybe from here on out, companies like Hancom will port their apps to Qtopia 2.1. . . but they will be just as usable on OZ. Maybe Trolltech will release a ROM for a fee that includes a version of Intellisync. . . I'd lay down a couple bucks to have 100% Outlook compatibility again. Or maybe Qtopia Desktop will evolve to the point where it can work with lots of different e-mail/groupware clients (I like the look of Mozilla Lightning) due to increased interest from the community.

The point here being, Trolltech's stepping up to fill the void they will definitely bring some good things to us poor folks who paid for our Z's.
technojunkie
Keep both:

Qtopia already has compatibility with some OPIE apps with compatibility layer. If both sides of the house work together and establish a cross platform API there shouldn't be much problem for developers to make one app work for both platforms.

As for QT 2.1 and syncing etc.. Lets not hold our breath. To be honest if I were running Trolltech I wouldn't have any interest in developing for a dead platform. (Before you flame me, think about it, Sharp has left NA and Europe with no intention of returning. They took their ball and went home, and from what I have seen the japanese users don't have as much interest as we do in developing new ROMs etc.)

If we want those things its on us to make it happen. When QT 2.1 hits we can port it to zaurus ( we probably should move to the 2.6 kernel, but thats a different argument) It won't be easy but I'm sure It'll happen eventually

If we want perfect sync to outlook, we have to dive into M$ hell and code a syncronization tool. Otherwise go get a copy of Ko/Pi and Ka/Pi and use it. sure the sync takes a couple more steps, but its functional.

Personally I use my zaurus as a PDA for Pim and sync. I keep my ebooks on it, a few pics of my kids, and that's about it... I do some apache/PhP/MySQL on it cuz I wanna develop some PhP/MySQL databases to run on the Z. I can't do all of this with Palm or Wince, But I can with OPIE and QT.

My PhP/SQL stuff will work regardless of my GUI as long as I have a browser, so as long as my GUI has Pim/sync I'm happy.
lpotter
QUOTE(technojunkie @ Dec 24 2004, 02:30 PM)
As for QT 2.1 and syncing etc.. Lets not hold our breath. To be honest if I were running Trolltech I wouldn't have any interest in developing for a dead platform. (Before you flame me, think about it, Sharp has left NA and Europe with no intention of returning. They took their ball and went home, and from what I have seen the japanese users don't have as much interest as we do in developing new ROMs etc.)

If we want those things its on us to make it happen. When QT 2.1 hits we can port it to zaurus ( we probably should move to the 2.6 kernel, but thats a different argument) It won't be easy but I'm sure It'll happen eventually

_Qtopia_ 2.1 syncs fine with Qtopia Desktop 2.1. The Zaurus might be dead in the US / Euro market, but Sharp is not Trolltech's only customer. Qtopia Phone devices will be emerging this next year in places, as well as new handheld devices.

There is no 'porting' Qtopia 2.1 to the Zaurus, it already runs on it.
mussi
FYI: https://www.oesf.org/forums/inde...?showtopic=9583

We found out who was the culprit who watered down the poll. Lousy Thinned-Vodka-drinkers. biggrin.gif

At any rate, only the two first options were mine. And actually, I wanted a decision on which one to keep. MickeyL, to that point, made some very good points to keep neither.
ScottYelich
ok, what is a good vodka?

is there a poll somewhere?

Scott
lpotter
QUOTE(mussi @ Dec 24 2004, 02:05 AM)
If we can get a-d together and make it work like it should, we stand a chance of having further HW, and maybe MickeyL and CoreDump hired by some company that develops Opie for a living.

However, I also suggest to read MickeyLs posting in that thread
for some further thoughs on the whole debate. I'm not completely agreeing with him, but the he's got a point on that matter, and he's the developer.

for one thing, mickey is not THE opie developer. There are several of us. One of us is even hired by Trolltech.
mussi
I know MickeyL's not the only Opie developer. However, he's possibly the most vocal one, and together with CoreDump, the only one regularly hanging around on forums, especially also the zaurus.help4free.de one.

The point behind this poll was actually to see which side got more support - the Sharp ROM side, or the OpenZaurus side, and, on that, the most powerful faction, which turns out to be Opie.

The rest of my thoughs have been laid out earlier.
saiten
Well in all my years I've never seen such a lame topic

How about "who's got to go first" - "posters of naff topics or Bill Gates"
lpotter
QUOTE(mussi @ Dec 25 2004, 12:17 PM)
The point behind this poll was actually to see which side got more support - the Sharp ROM side, or the OpenZaurus side, and, on that, the most powerful faction, which turns out to be Opie.

Looks to be even to me.
But Qtopia is not only on the Sharp rom.
mussi
I know Qtopia is not only on the Sharp ROM - I implictely included Tkc-ROM and sons-of-Sharp-ROMs.
technojunkie
QUOTE(lpotter @ Dec 24 2004, 09:40 AM)
_Qtopia_ 2.1 syncs fine with Qtopia Desktop 2.1.  The Zaurus might be dead in the US / Euro market, but Sharp is not Trolltech's only customer. Qtopia Phone devices will be emerging this next year in places, as well as new handheld devices.

There is no 'porting' Qtopia 2.1 to the Zaurus, it already runs on it.

OK 'porting' wasn't exactly the proper term. Yes QT 2.1 WILL run on a zaurus without problem. BUT there are no prepackaged ROMS with it (that I have seen).

I didn't mean to imply Sharp was Trolltechs only customer, All I was saying is that If Sharp's market keeps decreasing, and Sharp doesn't pursue packaging 2.1 with its newer devices there isn't much incentive for trolltech to focus on the Zaurus. Especially with smartphones and other devices just waiting to make them money.

As for Sync, I'm not interested in a backup on my PC, I want integration of my palmtop PIM and my desktop including my work PC. So i'm srry I won't touch QTopia desktop. I am stuck with MS outlook for better or worse, and have to sync with outlook.

If it weren't for that I'd drop both PIM apps and get Ko/Pi Ka/Pi
lpotter
QUOTE(technojunkie @ Dec 27 2004, 12:45 PM)
OK 'porting' wasn't exactly the proper term. Yes QT 2.1 WILL run on a zaurus without problem. BUT there are no prepackaged ROMS with it (that I have seen).


As for Sync, I'm not interested in a backup on my PC, I want integration of my palmtop PIM and my desktop including my work PC. So i'm srry I won't touch QTopia desktop. I am stuck with MS outlook for better or worse, and have to sync with outlook.

If it weren't for that I'd drop both PIM apps and get Ko/Pi Ka/Pi

There will be qtopia 2.1 shortly...

Whats wrong with qtopia desktop? Qtopia Desktop sync's with outlook. QD 2.1 should be released soon.
guylhem
Mussi, I perfectly understand the purpose of your poll. It's not like the linux market several years ago as someone suggested: there aren't many hardware commercially available where qtopia/opie can run reliably. Basically the Zaurus or nothing at all.

The difference is much greater than a "distro war" ie redhat/slackware/suse/debian etc - here we have a toolkit fork. Distribution is just about packaging. Toolkits are about basic compatibility - it's a pain to create an application that work both on opie and qtopia. And it shouldn't be painful ! Can you imagine where we'd be today if KDE or GNOME had split in two directions? Don't forget that there're much less developpers for handheld than on the Linux desktops.

Another problem: there's not lots of space on a PDA. You could back then run both KDE and GNOME on a PC, but having both Opie *and* Qtopia on so few mb- bad idea.

Anyway as technojunkie said, the real issue is applications. "drop both PIM apps and get Ko/Pi Ka/Pi" ? You're right on the spot. Forget side issues, and do the best apps.

Forget side issues, like commercial stuff, license, "eye candy", "beautiful code", or tiny problems with either qtopia or opie.

A simple question: what would bring in more free and non free applications to the Zaurus?

I'd say compatibility. Write one application, have it run on every machine out there- whether it uses opie qtopia or something-else-rom. Don't make a hell of the developpers life.

If you want my 2 ¢ solutions, the best way to fix the situation right now is a serious change in OPIE: focus on applications and compatibility. Call in "opie3" or whatever, and create apps for qtopia 2.1 or any future version. Nothing but apps/gui stuff, and the needed compatibility parts where there are no free equivalents yet - such as a zaurus-side zsrep for synchronisation. Focus on *compatibility* - even if the solution might be not as good.

Take the best there is, like aqpkg, kopi, kapi, gaim, zsrep. etc. and make them even better. Don't tweak qte/qpe - there no reason. If there's a life threatening lib or function that's missing, a) suggest it to trolltech and cool.gif if there's no reply, put in in a libopie3 that's as small as possible, with the hope it will be merged back in the next version of qtopia.

That would require a serious change of mentalities, :-/
guylhem
mussi, I understand the purpose of your poll.

It's not like the "distro wars" as someone suggested (debian vs redhat vs slackware vs suse etc) - distributions just package content. Here it's a toolkit for - basically as if KDE had split in its early days in two concurrent sub versions. A toolkit means compatibilty - it's not possible at the moment to have both opie and qtopia with the small space available on a PDA. Even if it was, it's a pain to create an application working for both, and that prevents ppl from writing apps. Hey, that's the most important on any machine - applications ! That's where the concerns should be - not on who has the sexiest toolkit of if it's not possible in some dirty way to live with both. Having both incompatible toolkits prevents applications from being developped.

Mickey saw exactly the problem when he said a decision must quickly be taken. IMHO the quickest fix is to redefine the roles of each : leave the toolkit to qtopia, focus on apps on opie. Start from scratch with qtopia 2.1, and release apps. Just apps that are missing (qpe-gaim ...) or non free on qtopia.

Then qtopia and opie will not be opposed but cooperative instead.

It would require some serious rework and changes but I believe that's the best and quickest way to fix things - and it may create enough momentum to fix other things (ex: bring more developpers to this successfull platform, bring more applications, change trolltech mind to let the community participate to the devel process)

As technojunkie said about kopi/kapi, there're applications that are just the best, and which should be used on both.

Take that approach even further- find out the best apps, and make them even better. Leave the rom release/hacking it all together job to other projects. Cacko and others proove that this won't be a problem :-)
lpotter
I couldnt agree with you more, guylhem. But I think Opie could exist as an extension to qtopia.
Compatibility is strength. I have always believed that.
guylhem
twell if you agree and mickey sees a possible solution, what about a cease fire and starting again with something constructive ?

I really hope the situation can be fixed.

What could TT do to help that happen? (hint: create a new trust-based partnership with the community, with small things like publishing work in progress for the upcoming v4, GPLing some parts if needed (ex: sync), forwarding requests like softfloat support to licensees [sharp will soon publish roms with qtopia 2.1 and kernel 2.6.9 according to the rumor. Suggest them to go the whole 9 yards with soft float !...])

Smalls things will (re)create goodwill and maybe help opie community and fanbase to work on new objectives. And I'm a big OPIE fan.

Hey, I'll try to publish a new analysis soon to voice all these thoughts.

PS Sorry for the dupe, thought the forum had eaten my first msg
lpotter
QUOTE(guylhem @ Dec 29 2004, 01:07 AM)
twell if you agree and mickey sees a possible solution, what about a cease fire and starting again with something constructive ?

I really hope the situation can be fixed.

What could TT do to help that happen? (hint: create a new trust-based partnership with the community, with small things like publishing work in progress for the upcoming v4, GPLing some parts if needed (ex: sync), forwarding requests like softfloat support to licensees [sharp will soon publish roms with qtopia 2.1 and kernel 2.6.9 according to the rumor. Suggest them to go the whole 9 yards with soft float !...])

Smalls things will (re)create goodwill and maybe help opie community and fanbase to work on new objectives. And I'm a big OPIE fan.

Hey, I'll try to publish a new analysis soon to voice all these thoughts.

PS Sorry for the dupe, thought the forum had eaten my first msg

heh,... your really dreamin' on that 2.1 rom from Sharp.
JohnKiniston
QUOTE(lpotter @ Dec 28 2004, 02:18 PM)
heh,... your really dreamin' on that 2.1 rom from Sharp.

Is it as much of a dream to dream of a 2.1 image from the OpenZaurus people?

They already provide a Opie image, a GPE image and a no GUI image.

Does the license for the 2.1 qtopia allow people other than trolltech to distribute it in rom images?
lpotter
I meant there is probably no hope that Sharp will produce any qtopia 2.1 roms for Zaurus.
mussi
And that's exactly the reason why we have to take the decision for Sharp, how much Sharp might like or not like it. The world has to go on.

There might be a way that Sharp starts using Qtopia 2.1/Opie2 - and that's when OZ does it, and did all the work for it. I suspect that Sharp might sleep in a 'made' bed, and have us develop most of the kernel and the widget toolset, and just supply hardware and some applications that can't easily be created by opensource developpers (like Japanese-English dictionaries with copyrighted information).

Or we simply improve on apps. But that wouldn't make the problem MickeyL pointed out smaller, since we'd always run after a moving target, and that's the Qtopia x.y version. If we had a commitment from TrollTech that any future Qtopia/Opie app that compiles on 2.1 also compiles without modification on x.y, there could be a point to move to Qtopia. However, this seems unlikely to me. OTOH, moving to Enlightenement is also highly risky as we would lose most of our codebase (75% if MickeyLs worst prognostics come true) if we changed. So maybe keeping Opie and just going for the applications is the best we can currently do. Since Qtopia 1.7 won't evolve, keeping Opie at this point and enhancing on Opie is probably the best thing we can do.

Maybe somebody who has a much better command of the Japanese language than me could explain that in a Japanese Zaurus forum?
trejkaz
I hate to make a choice between forks as in most cases, there is something each side brings that the other doesn't.

But at the moment, I think I'd want to keep OPIE, even if I don't use it myself yet. Generally it's not such a good idea to stifle development on any platform, least of all anything related to PDAs, where innovation is a good thing, and something which is far too uncommon. Qtopia might be source-available, but unless they actually accept the patches people make, is it really "open"? :-/
adf
my .02usd.

a).There is not ever really going to be a north american linux pda market on any size.

cool.gif. choice encourages rather than limits development.

The place where linux in handhelds, in the us at least, will prosper imho is either in combination phone/pim --and qtopia has done nicely there--as I assume opie might someday too-- or in tiny laptop replacements like the the z. really--- how many zuggers view the z as an electronic addressbook?

These are 3 very different things.
the phone/pim is not going to be much of a geek/hacker toy I think. I see it as quick easy and basic connectivity and data retreival. But a gadget that goes along with the same demographic as overpriced sedans. This market will be people who want (as d. savard has said in another context) a high batman factor. But these mostly won't be modders or geeks... they will want integrated solutions with simple interfaces that simply work when started. Just like you don't find too many guys modding their lexuses, but lots polishing them. There will of course be a minority who see it otherwise.

There might soon be more of a pocket-laptop martket. I don't know how big it will be, and I think the devices will have to be Z ish or larger-- certainly larger than the standard pda (which will be embedded in phones anyway) and powerful, versatile, etc...
The same will be true of this "micro-laptop" demographic as the pimphone,though maybe more business men on the road looking to minimize the load etc. These guys won't care at all what their device runs so long as it isn't a pain for them to get the job done. ... But there will also be a distinctly larger minority that wants cutting edge and optimized stuff... and to do things their way, or who are IT or other tech pro's, or even students? These folks will be able to deal with variety just fine. .

The different solutions; X, opie, Qtopia, will have different but overlapping clientele.. like now. That the options exist, likely won't slow the adoption of handheld linux in the us anyway. What will do that is Dell. How many of you know people who really beleive thant M$ stuff is "the best" even whein it is hell to maintain, insecure, unstable and in some cases simply doesn't do the job at all--and with closed source, can't be fixed to do the job? People aren't buying axims because they find the opie/qtopia breach disquieting. They are buyning them because they were told they are SOLD them. They are easy to come by and are chock full o familiar logos.

Until the cultural view of technology in the us shifts quite a bit, the only linux stuff in the general market will be there because joe consumer does not know or need to know that that under the shiny buttons is a linux kernel. That is to say because an asian manufacturer didn't want to py ms royalties on a nice new pimphone, or because it was easier and better to use linux for that application. It is the application set that will drive the thing though, and the "shinyness" of it combined with the right promo and logo combo that will move it. Think motorola.

The ability of the community to compare implementations and discuss strong/weak points can only have an eveolutionary, good, effect. Just like it does in the server/desktop world. I don't see any need for anything to be artificially killed off.
We might be better serverd by finding and encouraging an opensource hardware movement, then by bitching about developer not all working on the same projects.

If we are talking about corporate adopters (or producers)of handheld devices having choice, and abandoning linux because their tech dept can work with oe to build seamless nealry identical ui's across mukltiple devices, or can contract with trolltech for the production or modification of a ui and the choice just hurts their tiny brains so much that they flee to windows... welll.. that IS silly.


I could ramble on and on... but I amstill trying to convince public school people that paying for ms office every few years by the truckload is stupid and wasteful-- If that argument isn't over, then the issue of which handheld gui ( I know it is alittle more than that) on linux based handhelds should be our orthodox and dogmatic favorite just stikes me as esoteric in a medieval way.

For the faithful then:
Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
adf
oh, yeah.I almost forgot--- in all cases the more gnuish the license, all other things being equal or close, the better for all. Linux works BECAUSE of its open nature. where that is limited linux is ultimately being crippled.
lpotter
QUOTE(trejkaz @ Jan 21 2005, 12:08 PM)
I hate to make a choice between forks as in most cases, there is something each side brings that the other doesn't.

But at the moment, I think I'd want to keep OPIE, even if I don't use it myself yet.  Generally it's not such a good idea to stifle development on any platform, least of all anything related to PDAs, where innovation is a good thing, and something which is far too uncommon.  Qtopia might be source-available, but unless they actually accept the patches people make, is it really "open"? :-/
*


lets not get into this argument, its silly. Open source is open source. Opie would not exist if not for Qtopia being open source. and yes, Trolltech does accept patches when and where appropriate.
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