OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: handheld-linux on April 07, 2005, 07:05:38 am
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Dear all,
as summarized in the recent poll, I have prepared a first draft for a "Request for Information" which can eventually be sent out to potential PDA manufacturers (including Sharp) as a demand profile from the Zaurus User Group. My minimum expectation is to stimulate the manufactueres to think (again) more about Linux based devices and optimally make available additional devices that you really can buy in Europe and the US.
Please comment on these device profiles (but please note that having everything inside drives cost far beyond 1000$ and getting a second source for a C3000-like device at $175 is unrealistic).
Many thanks,
Nikolaus
The Handheld Linux Shop
http://www.handheld-linux.com (http://www.handheld-linux.com)
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I think that should be mini A plug, that's what's on the 3000.
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I think that should be mini A plug, that's what's on the 3000.
Hm, anybody knows it for sure?
I googled and found e.g. http://www.vivitar.com/Products/DigCams/te...Bminicable.html (http://www.vivitar.com/Products/DigCams/techpops/USBCables/A-Bminicable.html) which shows an "A to mini B"
Nikolaus
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Hm, anybody knows it for sure?
it sure is a miniA... i agree with iamasmith
loran
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definitely mini-a A sockets are for host devices.
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@handheld-linux:
In your .rft file you say:
The Zaurus User Group/OESF is therefore interested in getting technical and (general) commercial information about your capabilities to develop and produce products as specified below. Distribution is intended to be managed by companies that already import the Sharp Zaurus to Europe and the US.
I presume you've spoken to offroadgeek (who runs the site and is ultimately responsible) and he's happy about the use of the Zaurus User Group/OESF name in this role as the 'interested party'?
Otherwise it might be better couched in different terms; as in 'THE HANDHELD LINUX SHOP' (your company) is interested... etc. If one of these companies were to reply and say, "yes, we'll start production for you tomorrow, how many are you willing to buy", I'm not sure that the ZUG/OESF has the required infrastructure to sell/distribute/etc. the devices anyway.
Cheers,
Si
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Just a comment:
Referencing the 9300 as a bar phone is not correct. the 9300 most definitely is a clamshell. Also, the plug is indeed mini-A on the sl-c3000.
I can only applaud this effort to bring the linux protable devices to the attention of manufaturers. My hope is that with the advent of fully supported devices in other parts of the world than Japan, the developer community will warm to the idea of mobile Linux.
Regards,
Jan
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I think the Low-end PDA should include IrDA and a microphone for voice recording. As a trade-off, the screen could be backed-down to 320x480.
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Nikolaus,
You need to change this:
The Zaurus User Group/OESF is therefore interested...
to this:
The Handheld Linux Shop is therefore interested...
It's fine to reference the poll and the discussion, but the ZUG and the OESF should not be tied to this RFI in any other way. I don't want to be legally responsible for this if this progresses into an RFP...
If you would like The Handheld Linux Shop to have an affiliation with the OESF (the nonprofit which owns the zug), then please email me offline.
Thanks
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It's fine to reference the poll and the discussion, but the ZUG and the OESF should not be tied to this RFI in any other way. I don't want to be legally responsible for this if this progresses into an RFP...
Agreed, so this sentence will be changed.
I will contact you through PM how to make that clean, as I want to serve the OESF/Linux users and not claim anything which is not true or intended.
So, we all will focus on the technical aspects here.
Nikolaus
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Hmmm....Lovely...Looks Lovely.
I have to say though, some of your suggestions are rather unreasonable (If not expensive).Now, I know these are general suggestions, but Wifi, bluetooth 2 CF, 1 SD all in one device? I can't really see that coming any time soon.
My suggestion is, make a cross between the Axim x50v and the C3000....A clamshell device with a lot of power...But this is a mere wishlist.One must research and make the best compromise between power, design, and battery life.Mabye someone could come up with a list that's more specific (Meaning...CPU:Intel Xscale pxa27x @ 312-624 mhz, and so on.), but not unreasonable(And cost efficient).Mabye then, a contracted manufacturer could make these devices...And a reseller could sell them, but only with the right demand.
One more, IBM and several other companies have made PDA reference designs, ready for take-off.Mabye, with a little tweaking, something could be done.Check out www.linuxdevices.com in their PDA section for more on this matter.
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Mabye someone could come up with a list that's more specific (Meaning...CPU:Intel Xscale pxa27x @ 312-624 mhz, and so on.), but not unreasonable(And cost efficient).Mabye then, a contracted manufacturer could make these devices...And a reseller could sell them, but only with the right demand.
That is basically my idea - create a rough list and just ask potential manufacturers what they have to offer. As offroadgeek stimulated by his comment: we probably need a separate legal entity that is open for all the resellers over the world, so that manufacturers become interested.
One more, IBM and several other companies have made PDA reference designs, ready for take-off.
The IBM PowerPC 405LP based was my personal favourite... But they sold the 400 processor line to AMCC and the low power processor is not available any more. So, I think they dumped the reference design as well.
Nikolaus
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Hmmm....Lovely...Looks Lovely.
I have to say though, some of your suggestions are rather unreasonable (If not expensive).Now, I know these are general suggestions, but Wifi, bluetooth 2 CF, 1 SD all in one device? I can't really see that coming any time soon.
Sharp could do it with fairly minimal modifications to the 3000. (Not 2cf + built in microdrive - that isn't supported by the Strongarm. CF+SD+Microdrive+BT+wireless+BT would be doable though, at a cost in size and or battery life.)
Specifying a production date of 6 months from now and stating 8hrs battery life might be a bit tough, though.
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Honestly, a C-3000 with BT+Wifi would just fine for pretty much anything.
The BIG problem lies with the closed architecture and the lack of decent software. What good is BT when you can't use your phone properly with it?
What good is wifi when your mail client is so ridiculously bad?
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Honestly, a C-3000 with BT+Wifi would just fine for pretty much anything.
The BIG problem lies with the closed architecture and the lack of decent software. What good is BT when you can't use your phone properly with it?
What good is wifi when your mail client is so ridiculously bad?
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Well, I wouldn't cry if they added ram and a faster processor to the 3000, either. For the time being, a swapfile on the HD is doing well enough.
Manufacturer supported open-ness would have been very nice. Is anybody quite sure why Sharp decided to use the closed branch of Qtopia instead of the open one?
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Well, I wouldn't cry if they added ram and a faster processor to the 3000, either. For the time being, a swapfile on the HD is doing well enough.
Manufacturer supported open-ness would have been very nice. Is anybody quite sure why Sharp decided to use the closed branch of Qtopia instead of the open one?
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True, a RAM increase would be good, especially for web-browsing.
Sharp probably decided it wasn't worth it (from a corporate point of view) to adhere to the quality standard of the mainline kernel (so they made no effor to contribute their stuff back, they just published the patches).
Following th esame reasoning, they thought it made more financial and strategic sense to not contribute back, and get a license instead. Except now they're stuck as pretty much the only PDA manufacturer shipping a Linux device. Awesome.
It probably would have cost them much more time to produce acceptable code for all the functionality they needed, and contributing back would mean they would have to make everything modular, which at first glance flies in the face of all-around integration.
Of course, had they opened the platform and actually supported the developpers instead of slapping them around, the resulting community would have been really supportive, but now...
This kind of strategy is understandable in the short run, but you're burning so many bridges it seems pretty short sighted to me.
What's funnier is that they didn't even realize how counter-productive this behaviour is when you're trying to market your stuff to the Enterprise market. Funny in a sad kind of way, I guess.
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Firstly,
there is a 0.2 version of the specification attached. Now put under GFDL.
Secondly,
it is a "mini B" plug on the device. There is no "mini A". The cable of the C3000 is "A to mini B". I just learned that myself. Here is the reference: http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ecn1.pdf (http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ecn1.pdf)
Thirdly,
the main focus is on a device. So, software and its quality is something different. I think we should have a working "standard" software on it - and enough information to port e.g. OpenZaurus and/or pdaXrom or whatever you like to it. So, my main concern is that there is enough flash/ram/HDD available for future needs.
Fourthly,
I have added GPRS class 10 (up to 2 channels uplink). Here a reference what it means: http://www.gsmworld.com/technology/gprs/class.shtml (http://www.gsmworld.com/technology/gprs/class.shtml)
Nikolaus
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I would also include built in GPRS in the Micro-Laptop model - under the assumption that Smartphone is a smaller (screen and keyboard), and cheaper version of Micro-laptop how does it make sense for "lower" end device to have any features that big brother does not? Especially feature like GPRS since many power users would like to connect to internet from anywhere (and not have to use CF slot for battery eating GPRS card as we have to do now).
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Is the backlit TFT screen the same one as the 6000 that you can use outdoors?
Bill
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I'd be very happy with open drivers and expandability--- 1000 w/ 2 cf and real, open linux drivers (and a 6k screen)would be a great device. If the proc would run a 600, so much the better.
Honestly though I think to move much beyond that we get into the next strata of handhelds--the x86's. OQO and especially flipstart look wonderful, but too pricey. tiqit looks like something made by thoughtful people, and like it would be a really nice thing runing sid
I see handhelds as:
cellphone-basic
pda - axim- z5500
smartphone
expensivepda 9for lack of a better term) zclamshell, 6k
x86 handheld --oqo flipsmart tiqit.
combinations of the above seem the best choice for versatilty, the smartphone is the winner for basic all-in-one, expensivepda is likely nicest-gadget-per-shekel...etc. you all get the picture.
I like any effort to keep the z evolving, but really linux is weak in the basic pda end (though the 1000 is an amazing deal foR the price). maybe the basic pda is dead, and 2 levels of phone and 2 levels of handheld cover the market. more linux smartphones, and maybe serious software work on the z (and better sales by sharp) seem to me to be the thing to look for.
--thinking out loud
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Oh yeah, one last thing: if the MDA Mk 4 (http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000090030074/) ran Linux, I would have ditched my Z a long time ago.
The specs are pretty much perfect: built-in QWERTY keyboard, UMTS, large touch screen, 1.3 megapixel digital camera, 128MB of RAM, 520MHz Intel XScale processor, WiFi, and Bluetooth.
To me, trying to produce a new handheld is just not a productive way to go about it. The manufacturer of the MDA wants to stay an OEM, so getting hardware specs shouldn't cause any trouble.
Write drivers, port a decent version of OZ with Qtopia on top, perfect phone ahoy.
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Oh yeah, one last thing: if the MDA Mk 4 (http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000090030074/) ran Linux, I would have ditched my Z a long time ago.
The specs are pretty much perfect: built-in QWERTY keyboard, UMTS, large touch screen, 1.3 megapixel digital camera, 128MB of RAM, 520MHz Intel XScale processor, WiFi, and Bluetooth.
To me, trying to produce a new handheld is just not a productive way to go about it. The manufacturer of the MDA wants to stay an OEM, so getting hardware specs shouldn't cause any trouble.
Write drivers, port a decent version of OZ with Qtopia on top, perfect phone ahoy.
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Very nice. If this is the direction that smartphones are taking, I won't mind the "death" of the PDA market any more.
I've got a "Wallaby", the first generation device manufactured by HTC. There's currently a Linux initiative for the older models, with a booting kernel. I haven't looked up what kind of support the newer ones have yet. AFAIK, HTC won't give out documentation on them, so it is an uphill battle.
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Secondly,
it is a "mini B" plug on the device. There is no "mini A". The cable of the C3000 is "A to mini B". I just learned that myself. Here is the reference: http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ecn1.pdf (http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ecn1.pdf)
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=74092\")
Absolutely wrong.
The USB port on the host capable Zaurii (the SL-6000, SL-C1000, and SL-C3000) is a USB 2.0 On-The-Go mini-AB port. It can accept both mini-A and mini-B connectors. When a mini-B cable is plugged in it functions as a USB Client. With a mini-A cable it functions as a USB Host.
The cable included with the 3000 is an A to Mini-B cable because that is used for syncing the Zaurus to a host computer. To use the 3000 as a host you need a mini-A to Male A socket cable, such as the iRiver cable.
USB On The Go supplement to the USB 2.0 specifications:
[a href=\"http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/OTG1_0a%28PDFs%29.zip]http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/OTG1_0a(PDFs).zip[/url]
You might want to be a little more carefull with your research before you go and submit that specification to anyone.
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is there some different otg minib plug? I just checked what I think is a mini-b from a lexar card reader.... doesn't fit. Or maybe the cable to the lexar reader isn't quite normal mini-b? info would help.
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Kahm,
thank you very much for the link to that spec! It has clarified a lot.
There is no "mini A"
Absolutely wrong.
Well, there *was* no mini A plug until the spec for it was issued. So it *became* wrong after 24 june 2003 :-)
The USB port on the host capable Zaurii (the SL-6000, SL-C1000, and SL-C3000) is a USB 2.0 On-The-Go mini-AB port.
The comments here were so confident that it is a mini A (because they thought about USB host) but then I just found mini B cables (since I had thought about USB client for the standard cable)... We all were wrong and you are right: it must be an "OTG mini-AB" (the C3000 even comes with the correct grey color code). So I will put that into the spec.
And, should we specify the device to come with *two* cables? A Host plus a Client cable?
Tnx again,
Nikolaus
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is there some different otg minib plug? I just checked what I think is a mini-b from a lexar card reader.... doesn't fit. Or maybe the cable to the lexar reader isn't quite normal mini-b? info would help.
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There is another small connector that is almost square, compared to the wider and narrower mini-b connectors. My Kodak camera takes the square connector (but I can't find the cable to see what's written on it, and I don't feel like digging back into the usb documents). Everything else I own seems to take mini-b.
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And, should we specify the device to come with *two* cables? A Host plus a Client cable?
I should come with 2 plugs and 2 cables. Have you thought about my MDA comment?
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Firstly, some people seem to think that having a better spec than what the Z has for a similar price is not possible. That is plain wrong (Unless the great screens shifts the price up significantly). Many devices around the price of the C860 / C1000 have bluetooth, wifi, CF + SD + Mic, and some have a camera too. (Look at Fujutsu, Dell, HP high end PDA's)
As someone said earlier, mixing a C3000 & Dell X50v would pretty much do the job. (Basically, X50v, without graphics processor, with keyboard, better screen and Linux). If it was produced on a big enough scale, it should cost just a little more than an X50v - I'd say very reasonable for such a device.
I think the ideas handheld-linux has put forward are decent. I'm interested in the mini-laptop type PDA, and the spec seems good. It is still very true that such a product would not be a great success unless there is fair investment in the software. The products will need to be good for the masses, not just us enthusiasts, which I think they can be - there are no other good clamshell PDA's out there.
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I just came across https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11759 (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11759) which contains a link to an "Zircon Axia A108" smartphone which roughly fits the spec of the Tux Smartphone.
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I should come with 2 plugs and 2 cables.
Have you thought about my MDA comment?
sod the USB. just give us full-speed firewire!
Have you thought about my MDA comment?
yeah, I like the MDAiv, when I first saw it I thought about holding off buying a Z, but then the more I thought about it the more I realised it'd be *ages* before someone will manage to hack it sufficiently to even get it trying to load linux, let alone support all the embedded peripherals.
sigh.
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I should come with 2 plugs and 2 cables.
Have you thought about my MDA comment?
sod the USB. just give us full-speed firewire!
A USB controller is built into the PXA270 series chip from Intel, and is therefor basically available for "free". Firewire would require an extra chip, which means extra circuitry, a larger motherboard, and extra power drain.
Besides - where am I going to get a Firewire keyboard and mouse?
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Why should they build WiFi, Bluetooth or GPRS into the device when all of these are already available as add-on cards?
The idea of having 2 CF slots is a good one since that allows people to configure a device with a comms card (modem, ethernet, wifi, bluetooth, GPRS) of their choice as well as a hard drive if they want one. And if they need to copy files from CF cards from their camera, they can remove the comms to do the copy. There should be no extra chipcount to add a 2nd CF port.
Full SDIO is a good idea as is full USB host support.
But why bother with this RFP in the first place? This is not how manufacturers evolve their products. Sharp has shown a steady progression of features from model to model. It is a nice modular device that can be expanded in many ways. The main failing of Sharp is that they don't do enough to encourage the 3rd party add-on market. After all Sharp could sell bundles of Zaurus with wifi card or GPRS card with minimal hassle by just taping the card box to the zaurus box. A lot simpler than engineering it into the device and then losing sales because not everyone wants to pay for the unneeded comms capability.
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Why should they build WiFi, Bluetooth or GPRS into the device when all of these are already available as add-on cards?
The idea of having 2 CF slots is a good one since that allows people to configure a device with a comms card (modem, ethernet, wifi, bluetooth, GPRS) of their choice as well as a hard drive if they want one. And if they need to copy files from CF cards from their camera, they can remove the comms to do the copy. There should be no extra chipcount to add a 2nd CF port.
Full SDIO is a good idea as is full USB host support.
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This is precisely the reason that Sharp doesn't build wireless into the Japanese Z's in the first place. They have a number of commonly available and moderately priced cellular wireless cards.
For me, built in Wi-Fi would mean no more giant antenna sticking out of the side of my Z while I'm trying to type. No more seperate card that I have to tote around and could lose. No more swapping cards to switch from storage to connectivity. Now that I have my 3000, I can deal with it a little better because of the internal storage, but it is still a little annoying.
If you check the differences between the C1000 and C3000 motherboards, the C1000 is missing 1 or 2 chips in addition to the CF connector, so there is an additional chip count.
Regardless of all that, though, built in <something>, if done right, takes less space and less power than arbitrary add-on cards.
And full SDIO is problematic as it is covered by the same intellectual property issues as full SD support is - hence the Z's are stuck with the binary only SD module from Sharp. This goes against the full openess requirement.
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Why should they build WiFi, Bluetooth or GPRS into the device when all of these are already available as add-on cards?
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Becase external cards likely spend battery power even more quickly than if everything is integrated. Also, to have 2 CF slots you will have to again somewhat increase the size of the device which may not be what we all want. Third, if SD cards of larger sizes were coming up more quickly I would not mind it as much to waiste the CF slot for some other device. But since the largest available SD card you can buy is still only 1GB (ok 2GB was announced but good luck finding one for reasonable price) I hate waisting the CF slot for anything else other than CF memory or microdrive.
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Why should they build WiFi, Bluetooth or GPRS into the device when all of these are already available as add-on cards?
Old discussion, but I thought I'd comment:
The reasons are actually multiple:
- Force the device maker to semi-decently integrate the software to support the radio's.
(don't agree? look at the Z's level of bluetooth support and integration)
- Integrated design are usually less power-hungry.
- Integrated design are usually smaller (Look at how most Wifi cards stick out of a CF slot)
Look at your sentence: BT, Wifi and GPRS cannot be realisticly integrated in a modular PDA. You'd need too many slots, the cards would offer different levels of functionality (some wifi cards can sniff, some can't, etc), they'd stick out, killing the looks and pocketability, and the software stack probably wouldn't support much functionality at all.
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Oh yeah, one last thing: if the MDA Mk 4 (http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000090030074/) ran Linux, I would have ditched my Z a long time ago.
The specs are pretty much perfect: built-in QWERTY keyboard, UMTS, large touch screen, 1.3 megapixel digital camera, 128MB of RAM, 520MHz Intel XScale processor, WiFi, and Bluetooth.
To me, trying to produce a new handheld is just not a productive way to go about it. The manufacturer of the MDA wants to stay an OEM, so getting hardware specs shouldn't cause any trouble.
Write drivers, port a decent version of OZ with Qtopia on top, perfect phone ahoy.
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Ditching the Z for an MDA IV? I'm honestly thinking about doing just that. I'd like to see what price they finally decide upon: if I think I can claim about 90% of it back by selling my 6000 and all the extra kit, it's history. The MDA IV has got everything I was looking for when I was first in the market for a PDA eight months ago.
I really, really don't want to run Windows, but at least I'll finally be able to do something as simple as easily sync my PIM data from desktop to PDA. If there were a Linux PDA that promised the same compatibility, I'd switch in a heartbeat. Which is why I was checking this thread to begin with.
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If the following changes would be made to a C1000/C3100 like machine:
1) Front lit display like the 6000 so you can view it in the bright sun.
2) More normal RAM (256 Mb would be ok, 512 Mb would be ideal).
3) Microphone so you can use VoIP.
4) Internal (empty) CF or SD card slot that the user can put storage in while keeping 1 external slot open for connectivity and one for swapping files around. A small bootloader in a ROM/NAND loads the OS from that internal card. I'd rather have a swappable card like that for the OS instead of soldered-on NAND that you cannot replace if it wears out.
(WiFi doesn't need to be included, because wifi standards evolve and a card is more flexible, but if it is it should be atleast 802.11g (or i?), also if WiFi is included it should be open in information so drivers can be written easily)
... if atleast the top two would be implemented then I would likely upgrade, not before.
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All the nice hardware won't buy us anything if the Zaurus developer situation stays the same. We need many more developers to make inherently complicated tasks seem easy for the casual user.
Don't get me wrong, I'd really love to have the features of the SL6000 in a clamshell design, but it won't make the software much more usable and in the end... it's the software that matters.
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All the nice hardware won't buy us anything if the Zaurus developer situation stays the same. We need many more developers to make inherently complicated tasks seem easy for the casual user.
Don't get me wrong, I'd really love to have the features of the SL6000 in a clamshell design, but it won't make the software much more usable and in the end... it's the software that matters.
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I agree about software being key but if hardware is higher end sofware would be easier. For example, what are two common complaints about software everyone expects to find working out of the box?
1. Firefox (takes something like 60 seconds to load on pdaX and/or Oz - at least that's what I read recently)
2. No good mail package
If you have 256Meg ram and fastest intel mobile CPU you would probably be able to run firefox without painful delay in loading, would be able to run full fledged mail sofware (whatever is ported), and would not have to clutter forums teaching newbies how to set up swap files to run basics like browser,mail,ko/ka/om/pi etc - just these essentials running smoothly would go a long way towards mainstream acceptance of zaurus (in my opinion this would especially help OZ and pdaXrom).
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1. Firefox (takes something like 60 seconds to load on pdaX and/or Oz - at least that's what I read recently)
Surely firefox's speed problems are firefox related more than hardware related? Throwing better hardware at poorly coded (I'm being generic here, not meaning firefox per se) software seems to be the microsoft approach to improving speed of apps.
I've seen Apple OS X.1 and OS X.3 on the same powerbook and X.3 was SO much faster on the same machine, proving that better coding, not hardware was definitely key there.
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[1. Firefox (takes something like 60 seconds to load on pdaX and/or Oz - at least that's what I read recently)
2. No good mail package
...
just these essentials running smoothly would go a long way towards mainstream acceptance of zaurus (in my opinion this would especially help OZ and pdaXrom).
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=85156\")
That are targets of the QuantumSTEP system - which tries to follow the Macintosh approach keep it simple, smooth, nice, simply working (although we still have to go a long way and probably will always be a little behind Apple).
As recently posted to the Mac forum ([a href=\"https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showforum=63]https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showforum=63[/url]), we are now focussing on a full Mail client (which is almost working on MacOS X but needs some more tweaking in the Zaurus GUI libraries to be compatible). And, we are looking for someone to port WebKit.framework which is the basis of the Safari browser.
With these main building blocks (together with an address book and a calendar) you will get a working, Mac-like system on the Zaurus.
Speed is an issue, we know. And we have to admit that the current builds of QuantumSTEP are painfully slow. But some reasons have been identified and can be solved. The main proof is that an Apple Powerbook with 400MHz PowerPC is approx. 10-20 times as fast as a 400MHz ARM Zaurus for the same Objective-C source code. So, there is enough potential for optimizations in the libraries.
-- hns
QuantumSTEP project
http://www.quantum-step.com (http://www.quantum-step.com)
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Speed is an issue, we know. And we have to admit that the current builds of QuantumSTEP are painfully slow. But some reasons have been identified and can be solved. The main proof is that an Apple Powerbook with 400MHz PowerPC is approx. 10-20 times as fast as a 400MHz ARM Zaurus for the same Objective-C source code. So, there is enough potential for optimizations in the libraries.
with respect, the powerpc is a very different beast to the arm. Arm truly IS a reduced instruction set (risc) processor, and gets a lot less done per clock than powerpc which has all manner of out-of-order execution pipelining logic.
arm is very much geared to power saving, powerpc isn't! Otherwise, Apple would have used the powerpc or derivative in the Newton!
that said, a good compiler should be able to shrink the performance gap between arm and ppc. lets face it, the good old amiga ran a fully GUI multitasking OS in 512K memory (half rom, half ram) with an 8MHz 68000!
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1. Firefox (takes something like 60 seconds to load on pdaX and/or Oz - at least that's what I read recently)
Surely firefox's speed problems are firefox related more than hardware related? Throwing better hardware at poorly coded (I'm being generic here, not meaning firefox per se) software seems to be the microsoft approach to improving speed of apps.
I've seen Apple OS X.1 and OS X.3 on the same powerbook and X.3 was SO much faster on the same machine, proving that better coding, not hardware was definitely key there.
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I have a powerbook and after I installed Tiger it feels like I bought a brand new machine. So in principle I agree with you that efficient software will take care of slower hardware. But the unfortunate Zaurus reality is that there is no Apple to write the software and number of developers that are woring on Z (as Mickeyl and others have repeatedly pointed out) is just too small. Given that, if you can get faster processor and more ram and firefox is responsive does it really matter that it's bloated (ok it does but it's possible to live with it). Between two solutions of better and more efficient software and Sharp just putting in a better (existing) processor and more RAM my money is on Sharp still solving this problem long before software is improved - no matter how slow Sharp is and how much we are all pissed about lack of features on high end clam models there is still nothing else better out there - or else we would not be on these forums, would we?
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with respect, the powerpc is a very different beast to the arm. Arm truly IS a reduced instruction set (risc) processor, and gets a lot less done per clock than powerpc which has all manner of out-of-order execution pipelining logic.
arm is very much geared to power saving, powerpc isn't! Otherwise, Apple would have used the powerpc or derivative in the Newton!
Ok, that is a good point. A 400MHz PowerPC G4 has a full FPU (not to speak about AltiVec) while an ARM processor has to usw a floating point library. And the new one with gcc 3.4 is IMHO not yet in use on the Zaurus.
And, secondly, an Apple has an additional GPU to do most of the windows and rendering. Has also to be done on the ARM in the Zaurus.
that said, a good compiler should be able to shrink the performance gap between arm and ppc. lets face it, the good old amiga ran a fully GUI multitasking OS in 512K memory (half rom, half ram) with an 8MHz 68000!
Yes, that is essentially my main point - improving algorithms (the inner loops wasting too much time - and missing caching algorithms) can have a large effect. And we have not really touched that in the QuantumSTEP project because we based on an older GNUstep system.
But that one has its roots in the NextStep system which also did run an 68040 with 16 or 32MHz (do not remember).
From all that I conjecture that most time is wasted in handling string comparisons and conversions. And, the QuantumSTEP runtime system is based on an old X11 server that requires a separate ztsd daemon to properly debounce and translate the Zaurus touch screen events (which comes into process priority conflict with everything else slowing down dramatically). Maybe something to replace by X/Qt which is unfortunately too much in Japanese for my language level...
So, there is plenty of room for software improvements (btw. the AppKit and Foundation libraries of QuantumSTEP are open source, LGPL).
-- hns
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Surely firefox's speed problems are firefox related more than hardware related? Throwing better hardware at poorly coded (I'm being generic here, not meaning firefox per se) software seems to be the microsoft approach to improving speed of apps.
The heavy UI (XUL) is only one of the problems. When your host CPU does 1 floating point operation per week, desktop and multimedia apps are never going to be very fun to use.
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http://jackwhispers.blogspot.com/2005/06/s...waited-for.html (http://jackwhispers.blogspot.com/2005/06/switch-newton-fans-have-waited-for.html)
Not sure if it's totaly related or belongs in new thread but it's at least somewhat related so most people reading this thread may be interested.
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I was just reading through this post. I think that another linux PDA that is effectively like a YOPY or Zaurus wouldn't be that compelling to the mainstream. I personally would like another Nokia Internet PAd or Simpad SL4 like device. These are the specs I would go for:
Dimensions: 7.1 x 10.4 x 1.1 in (180 x 263 x 28 mm)
Weight: 2.2 lbs (1 kg)
Processor: 600 MHz Intel XScale or 800MHz Transmeta Crusoe
Operating System: Qtopia
Memory :256 MB RAM and 64 MB Flash
Display :8.4 inch TFT 800 x 600 dpi - 32-bit color
Input/Output :Touch screen
:1 x USB Host
:Integrated Bluetooth (optional)
:2 x PCMCIA Type II card slot (full CArdBus)- must have
:1 stereo + mic jack
:Microphone
:Speaker
Drivers for PCMCIA wireless LAN cards (choose 3 types)
Battery: Lithium Ion batteries Up to 7 hrs per charge
The challenging thing would be the price!
You would have to do it for $200 to $400 USD
I would definitely buy it!
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my version attached, changes highlighted
basically, your "low end" is waaaay too high end