OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: handheld-linux on May 19, 2005, 05:29:59 am
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Dear all,
you might have followed my recent discussions on three new Linux PDA/Phone specifications defined by you, the ZUG users.
Now, the Low-End "Tux PDA" is becoming a little more realistic (at approx. 2/3 of the price of an SL-C1000), since one asian company I have contacted is interested in supporting this project.
Their current design (apparently being sold in China) is a SL-A300 like device:
* no keyboard
* 320x240 display,
* 64MB RAM
* 32MB ROM
* USB client (no host)
* SD (no SDIO)
* Linux 2.4.18 and Qtopia
Since this device seems too limited in connectivity to be attractive, we are now discussing is to start a redesign and add connectivity. To limit project cost, implementing both is out of scope.
So, what do you feel is more important in a Low End Linux PDA: WiFi or Bluetooth and why?
Many thanks for all votes and responses,
Nikolaus
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I should have added some pros and cons:
What can/can't you do with each of both?
WiFi:
* connect to the internet through a wireless access point or public hotspot
* connect (sync) to WiFi capable laptop/desktop
* connect a WiFi capable disk drive
* can't: connect to printer, mobile phone, keyboard, GPS receiver
Bluetooth:
* connect to the internet through a wireless access point or mobile phone
* connect (sync) to Bluetooth capable laptop/desktop, mobile phone
* connect to printer, mobile phone, keyboard, GPS receiver
* can't: use a public hotspot
Nikolaus
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To Qualify Y Bluetooth.
1. Cheap to include and supports phone access. Will be more attractive to your Asian developer as G3 is real in China.
2. Ownership of laptops and hence WIFI points is lower than in the west. (Or was when I was in China. Also you need an ID card to get a logon in an internet Cafe in China.)
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I voted wifi because a bluetooth CF card doesn't stick out. A wifi cf card does.
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I didn't see CF included in the specs. I would vote a cf slot over both those options. wouldn't it be cheaper to implement?
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I voted wifi because a bluetooth CF card doesn't stick out. A wifi cf card does.
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Thank you very much!
Unfortunately, we have to subtract at least your vote - because the discussion is about integrating WiFi or Bluetooth inside of the device (like e.g. the SL6000). So nothing is sticking out in any case. I probably was not 100% clear in formulating the poll.
Nikolaus
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2x cf + usb?
but slots are better than gadgets.... more customizable, and cheaper
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Could you add a "both" entry or is that out of discussion ?
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I didn't see CF included in the specs. I would vote a cf slot over both those options. wouldn't it be cheaper to implement?
CF needs a lot of space in a small device. And integrating a Bluetooth or WiFi chip is less expensive than a CF/PCMCIA chip plus connector plus cover plus adding a CF card.
And a great benefit will be for software developers: it is 100% clear which chipset is used. Look at all the threads about: "which card works", "where is the driver for..."?
So, in total it would be a more expensive solution making you ask why it isn't much cheaper than a C1000...
The idea is to have a real low end PDA which does the main task of a PDA including some wireless connectivity (e.g. to the internet, a PC, external devices) - but still being open to write your applications using gcc.
Nikolaus
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I voted wifi (BTW you *can* connect to a printer that has a print server) because I don't use bluetooth in my ipaq as much as the wifi. BTW I'm pretty sure there are more Z owners (in North America at least) with wifi than owners with bluetooth.
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I wasn't perfectly clear about my reasoning in my post. I would *assume* the presence of a CF slot becuase of the sheer amount of peripherals and memory modules that require CF. It would be ridiculous to release a PDA sans CF slot.
That being said, If I had to "add on" a bluetooth or wifi module, a wifi module would stick out, whereas a bluetooth module would not. Make more sense now?
If you're thinking about a PDA without a CF slot, you're just not being realistic.
I voted wifi because a bluetooth CF card doesn't stick out. A wifi cf card does.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Thank you very much!
Unfortunately, we have to subtract at least your vote - because the discussion is about integrating WiFi or Bluetooth inside of the device (like e.g. the SL6000). So nothing is sticking out in any case. I probably was not 100% clear in formulating the poll.
Nikolaus
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Could you add a "both" entry or is that out of discussion ?
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I have thought about that for a long time. But then I did not add it because I would expect that everybody would think: if I can get both, I select "both". And the result would be 95%.
And the truth is that it is already very expensive to add anything (other options would have been USB host, SDIO, CF slot, FM radio, integrated GPS receiver) but I felt that a low end PDA needs most urgently ONE good wireless communication channel.
So it is really about selecting a single option - and finding out the "most popular" or "mostly demanded" one.
Nikolaus
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I wasn't perfectly clear about my reasoning in my post. I would *assume* the presence of a CF slot becuase of the sheer amount of peripherals and memory modules that require CF. It would be ridiculous to release a PDA sans CF slot.
That being said, If I had to "add on" a bluetooth or wifi module, a wifi module would stick out, whereas a bluetooth module would not. Make more sense now?
If you're thinking about a PDA without a CF slot, you're just not being realistic.
Ok, understood.
IMHO, having this kind of swiss army knife flexibility is not the story of a Low-End PDA.
Therefore, I am talking about a PDA without CF slot, but of course SD (unfortunately no option for SDIO). And the there are popular models from Dell (Axim X30 series) and HP (e.g. HP iPAQ h4155) do not have a CF slot either.
Thanks for the clarification,
Nikolaus
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2x cf + usb?
but slots are better than gadgets.... more customizable, and cheaper
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Hm,
that is something I would consider a feature of a "Micro Laptop" class of devices.
And, slots are cheaper as long as they are unused and you don't add the cost of devices to add in.
Finally, a PDA becomes much bulkier by addings CF slots. So, this discussion is about bringing a little back the original idea of an everyday's use "Palm Pilot" but based on the now matured Linux / Qtopia systems to have software flexibility.
And make it connect to the outside world.
Nikolaus
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I voted wifi (BTW you *can* connect to a printer that has a print server) because I don't use bluetooth in my ipaq as much as the wifi. BTW I'm pretty sure there are more Z owners (in North America at least) with wifi than owners with bluetooth.
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Good points to consider!
Many thanks,
Nikolaus
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I didn't see CF included in the specs. I would vote a cf slot over both those options. wouldn't it be cheaper to implement?
CF needs a lot of space in a small device. And integrating a Bluetooth or WiFi chip is less expensive than a CF/PCMCIA chip plus connector plus cover plus adding a CF card.
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Virtually any ARM based chip has an CF interface. The iPAQ h4150 you mentioned uses that for it's internal WLAN. Bluetooth is hooked to the CPU's UART. Also note that only (expensive!) socket BT cards don't stick out. All the ones available here in the Netherlands stick out of the slot.
Another note: your design and specs look a lot like the iPAQ h1900 series, which are cheaper than the price you quoted.
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any idea on the CPU? If you can make this device as small or smaller than my ipaq 3115, then I might be interested. I would love a really small kde pim pi pda.
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does this thing have a serial port? ir? usb?
or are we talking just an sd slot and only either wifi or bt for any connection to anything (like a keyboard, or a phone?)
I should shutup, though, since pim is not very important to me and this is clearly a pim device.
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yes but we are also talking lower volumes than the 1900
Another note: your design and specs look a lot like the iPAQ h1900 series, which are cheaper than the price you quoted.
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does this thing have a serial port? ir? usb?
or are we talking just an sd slot and only either wifi or bt for any connection to anything (like a keyboard, or a phone?)
If you go with Intel's latest Xscale member, the pxa270, you wil get SDIO for free, as well as 3 serial ports (one for the cradle, one for BT, one for IR). I don't know if a Samsong SoC is cheaper, but they have mostly the same features.
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yes but we are also talking lower volumes than the 1900
Another note: your design and specs look a lot like the iPAQ h1900 series, which are cheaper than the price you quoted.
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That's exactly why it has to stand out by some really cool feature, be it connectivity, size or design. Some numbers on how much it costs to add BT, CF and/or wifi would be nice. If 'a lot more' amounts to $10 I'd say 'do both', but $40 would be another matter.
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Virtually any ARM based chip has an CF interface. The iPAQ h4150 you mentioned uses that for it's internal WLAN. Bluetooth is hooked to the CPU's UART.
Another note: your design and specs look a lot like the iPAQ h1900 series, which are cheaper than the price you quoted.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Ok, I don't know as I am not the technician to develop that device...
Pricing is depends heavily on the number of units. And HP is able to sell at least 100 times the number of such a device...
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does this thing have a serial port? ir? usb? or are we talking just an sd slot and only either wifi or bt for any connection to anything (like a keyboard, or a phone?)
I should shutup, though, since pim is not very important to me and this is clearly a pim device.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80532\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Questions are always welcome even if you are probably not the user...
Yes, it has IR, a serial interface and USB (client, probably 1.1). So, it *could* be possible to connect anything else through a serial interface but I doubt if you can easily buy them. Therefore the wireless connection is very important.
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If you go with Intel's latest Xscale member, the pxa270, you wil get SDIO for free, as well as 3 serial ports (one for the cradle, one for BT, one for IR). I don't know if a Samsong SoC is cheaper, but they have mostly the same features.
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It is already fixed that it has an Freescale i.MXL processor (ARM 9). There appears to be no choice (without starting a 10 Mio US$ completely new development).
Nikolaus
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then maybe be sure it runs irk? can talk to phones via ir? (these options make bt less "necessary")
and maybe shoot for usb host?
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but slots are better than gadgets.... more customizable, and cheaper
Absolutely correct. When I'm looking at a new gadget, I look for "slots" first. No "slots", no more attention from me, ever, because that gadget can never be expanded to be more than it currently is.
I think that's probably how the majority of gadget users think.
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I'm sure if it had USB host alot of people would be more willing to consider it. That is really one thing that I would like even more than wifi or bluetooth.
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Well, I voted for bluetooth even though personally I use WiFi more.
My reasoning is like this:
Bluetooth can do networking, although its a bit slow.
It has much better power consumption figures than Wifi, unless someone knows otherwise.
It can connect to wireless headphones to play mp3s from the SD card.
It can connect to GPS.
It can connect to mobile phones.
The last point is particulary is particularly useful given that Nokia has at leaste one phone, the N91 I think, planned with WiFi and bluetooth built in. As well as normal network conectivity this will be able to act as a gateway to wifi hotspots.
Also PalmOne has proven that bluetooth only designs can sell well worldwide, although their new PDA does have wifi.
(Personally I'm not buying another PDA till its got both bluetooth and wifi built in and runs linux!)
ltrm
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I voted wifi. I don't have any bluetooth enabled devices, and 'the net is vast and infinite...'
Heehee, I'd stop watching GITS every other day, but I'm afraid I'd just go back to my Akira habit.
And there's always the fear of a Croutching Tiger, Hidden Dragon relapse...
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Personally I would rather have which ever option has the least impact of battery life, its much easier to work around any range restrictions (etc) than painfully short battery life and any form of on board networking is a million time better than nothing.
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It seems to me like everyone here has a different idea about what they want, and most of them differ from the base specs you initially posted.
How about this; write up a simple web page in php or something with approximate costs for each item...
Pick one from each line:
320x240 $20 / 320x400 $40 / 640x480 $60
RAM 64mb $10 / 128mb $20 / 256mb $50 / 512mb $100
Battery life 4 hours $20 / 6 hours $50 / 8 hours $75 / 10 hours $100
a la carte:
USB host $40
Wifi $30
Bluetooth $25
CF slot $25
SD slot $25
(Disclaimer: I made up these prices!)
Let people "build their own PDA" and see how much it would cost. Let them save their option in a cookie, and gather statistics when they 'save'. You can get all kinds of good info from that, including most often chosen options, and average/mean/median cost.
Without extensive market research, your product isn't likely to do very well. Considering a ton of companies have done 320x240 PDA's, you need to do something different to catch people's attention... like 640x480 or built in GPS or whatever.
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For the original estimate of 2/3 the cost of a CL1000, personally I'd rather spend an extra 1/3 and get a CL1000. The addition of Wifi or Bluetooth aren't compelling enough for me to go with a lower resolution display, no USB host, and it didn't seem like a built-in keyboard.
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For the original estimate of 2/3 the cost of a CL1000, personally I'd rather spend an extra 1/3 and get a CL1000. The addition of Wifi or Bluetooth aren't compelling enough for me to go with a lower resolution display, no USB host, and it didn't seem like a built-in keyboard.
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Lower resolution display. Slower processor. No CF slot, only SD with no hope for SDIO. No keyboard. No USB host.
I'm afraid you've lost me here. Does it at least have IR? The *only* thing that I can think of that would make this worth buying is a 100% open software, and I'm not fanatic enough to buy it for that. It's basically a Palm 505 running linux.
I'm not going to vote either way for BT or WiFi. I'd want WiFi, but BT makes more sense for the main market in Asia. How practical is it to do two models, one with BT, one with WiFi? You probably won't get a consesus on one or the other.
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gondola...
good idea, but aren' we all going to build a 6K-W clamshell witha a 600mhz+ scalable pxa 270 (with video accel)256 rom 128 ram (min) and a bigger battery and optional battery pack?
maybe make a price cap that fits the manufatcturer?
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hmm....gondola=michael dell?
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hmm....gondola=michael dell?
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LOL!
No, I am not Michael Dell... but putting a price cap on it would help in eliminating frivolous choices and get people to answer what they really would like in a pda. Good idea, adf.
And actually no, I wouldn't build one with all that extra stuff... I want something that'll give me a nice display (640x480 at least) in the smallest package... running an open platform like Linux preferably.. So yeah give me performance and display but make it small. I'd do with a shorter battery time and fewer slots to shave off excess weight and bulk.
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I agree with Kahm on this one. What is the market for this thing? Who are you selling to? Most people on this board spend more to get more and are not interested in low end. They want a palm-sized laptop. Are we talking about the Asia market only? It won't sell anywhere else. Joe Euro/American won't want this because he could have PPC for the same price and could give a rat's dingy about it being proprietary. He would rather have a smartphone anyway. What if Sharp adds wi-fi to the C4000 or C2000 this fall? A wi-fi C2K at 1/3rd more would make this device look kind of redundant. I expect new Linux phones will be coming out to the Asian market later this year that will have approximately the same features as this device (though they may be more expensive).
For the original estimate of 2/3 the cost of a CL1000, personally I'd rather spend an extra 1/3 and get a CL1000. The addition of Wifi or Bluetooth aren't compelling enough for me to go with a lower resolution display, no USB host, and it didn't seem like a built-in keyboard.
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Lower resolution display. Slower processor. No CF slot, only SD with no hope for SDIO. No keyboard. No USB host.
I'm afraid you've lost me here. Does it at least have IR? The *only* thing that I can think of that would make this worth buying is a 100% open software, and I'm not fanatic enough to buy it for that. It's basically a Palm 505 running linux.
I'm not going to vote either way for BT or WiFi. I'd want WiFi, but BT makes more sense for the main market in Asia. How practical is it to do two models, one with BT, one with WiFi? You probably won't get a consesus on one or the other.
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Hmmm, I doubt there is a big market out there for such a device at that price. Frankly, at 2/3 the price of a C1000, it's way too expensive. If I currently was in the market for a low cost PDA with at least a possible future Linux option, I'd definitely go for an Acer n10. They are currently sold around here at €199/$250 (SRP: €249/$315) and can be had for as little as €179/$225 (and yes, that's end price including 16% V.A.T) -- now that is low cost/low end.
While it doesn't have a keyboard, it does sport the useful combination of CF and SD slot, a fairly large capacity LiPo battery, 64 RAM/32 Flash, 240x320 3.5" display, IrDA and a PXA processor. While AFAIK there is no ready-to-run Linux distribution available yet, the efforts of getting Linux up and running seem to have progressed quite a bit (http://sprite.student.utwente.nl/~jeroen/projects/n10-linux/).
Now, as a dealer I would probably rather think about spending some money in furthering development of this Linux port and convincing Acer to either give me all of their remaining stock (IIRC the n10 is no longer manufactured) or possibly ask them for a good deal on a small production run of this existing design.
It's likely that this might indeed make more parties happy than doing it some other way. But then again I am not a dealer (and I don't even play one on TV ), which is why there's likely a flaw in this plan ...
Best regards,
Chris.
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How about this; write up a simple web page in php or something with approximate costs for each item...
--- snip ---
Let people "build their own PDA" and see how much it would cost. Let them save their option in a cookie, and gather statistics when they 'save'. You can get all kinds of good info from that, including most often chosen options, and average/mean/median cost.
Yes, I have though about that and the best marketing research tool to do is called "Conjoint Analysis". It would provide you repeatedly with two randomly mixed products, sum up the price and let you state your preference. From all that it calculates the most preferable model and the relative preference of features.
I yery much like the idea of "Open Source Product Sepcification", so if you would volunteer to write the scripts, I would try to provide some data to fill it in.
Unfortunately, the whole approach works only if you have really the choice to design a device from scratch.
In this case it can only work the other way around: use an existing device and add something which is most urgently needed to make it attractive.
Nikolaus
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For the original estimate of 2/3 the cost of a CL1000, personally I'd rather spend an extra 1/3 and get a CL1000. The addition of Wifi or Bluetooth aren't compelling enough for me to go with a lower resolution display, no USB host, and it didn't seem like a built-in keyboard.
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Ok, you are probably member of the "Micro Laptop" group.
Nikolaus
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Does it at least have IR?
Yes
The *only* thing that I can think of that would make this worth buying is a 100% open software, and I'm not fanatic enough to buy it for that.
Yes, that is the intent - and to have it available for some time. Independently of market strategies and product decisions of Sharp, Dell, HP or whoever...
It's basically a Palm 505 running linux.
Well, more an Sharp SL-A300 with either Bluetooth or WiFi.
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I agree with Kahm on this one. What is the market for this thing?
worldwide - whoever wants to have such a device
Who are you selling to?
All the gurus who want a Linux based PDA for daily use.
Most people on this board spend more to get more and are not interested in low end.
Not all. I have run a recent poll: https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11403 (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11403) whish as of today says:
12% I love my Zaurus and will stay forever with Zaurus
38% I would like to have a low priced Linux PDA
29% I would like a Linux based Smartphone
They want a palm-sized laptop.
From the discussions I have identified three basic wishes:
* low end Linux PDA ("PIM PDA")
* Micro-Laptop
* Linux Smartphone
always assuming that they are as open for writing and installing software as the Zaurus.
Nikolaus
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... currently was in the market for a low cost PDA with at least a possible future Linux option, I'd definitely go for an Acer n10. They are currently sold around here at €199/$250 (SRP: €249/$315) and can be had for as little as €179/$225 (and yes, that's end price including 16% V.A.T)
While AFAIK there is no ready-to-run Linux distribution available yet, the efforts of getting Linux up and running seem to have progressed quite a bit (http://sprite.student.utwente.nl/~jeroen/projects/n10-linux/).
The question is: what is it worth to get a comparable PDA that already comeswith Linux installed, from a manufacturer who supports Linux and where you don't run the risk that a Linux release never comes or is never complete, or comes in two years when the device is no longer available?
An other point to consider: that is a sell-out price where nobody earns money. They even might loose money because the have to clear stock. So they subsidize by the new models.
And one more: How much does it cost to add Bluetooth/WLAN (unless you get a special offer).
and convincing Acer to either give me all of their remaining stock (IIRC the n10 is no longer manufactured) or possibly ask them for a good deal on a small production run of this existing design.
That could be a general alternative - if they are willing to do. Usually such companies fear the effort of supporting such a project - or you have to pay for it.
And as a dealer you have to get the money to support the Linux development from somewhere. So you have to make it more expensive than the original (or sell-out) price. And as long as the device is still available somewhere, everybody would buy the PPC version and install Linux. So to protect, the dealer must wait until the model is no longer available anywhere. And you get offered the oldest models... Is this attractive?
And: the device I am talking is also in production. So, if NOTHING would be added, it can be offered at a lower price.
Nikolaus
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Let me see if I can sum this up from a differnet angle. You're trying to pitch this as an inexpensive Linux-based PDA to the 38% in your poll.
So, my question is: Why do people want a linux based PDA?
There are the Open Source fanatics who'd run anything as long as it's GPL. They won't care so much what they're running it on.
Then there are the people who want Linux because of it's power and flexiblility. This group is most likely split between capabilities and price - your mini-laptop group and you're inexpensive Linux PDA group. The mini-laptop group is definitely out.
Now, take the device you're suggesting. 320x240 screen, no keyboard, no possibility of expansion. With the specs of 32mb ROM, and 64mb RAM, I'm assuming that it uses a Pocket PC-like storage method - OS in ROM, Ram split between storage and memory, so it's pretty low on memory as well. This can be worked around by using an SD card, which is slow and limits the device by permanently occupying it's *only* expansion slot. It is priced at 2/3 the cost of the C1000, from which I take to mean at most ~$300 US.
At that price, you're going to lose the interest of the users looking for truly low end pricing.
So now you're left with people looking for a relatively inexpensive but flexible PDA.
Without a keyboard it is going to be harder to enter data into. With no expansion slots other than SD you can't add peripherals. The low memory limits the software you can install and run. You're device will have either Wi-Fi or BT, so you can either surf the net quickly or sync through BT (or for those lucky enough to have BT cell phones or computers, surf slowly)
So where's the flexibility? It's just a PDA now, albeit one that runs Dillo and Ko/Pi instead of Pocket IE and Outlook. Who cares what OS it runs if it is really just a PDA?
You said yourself on the first page that flexibility isn't the strength of a low-end device. If it isn't, then the only market you've got left for an underpowered and unexpandable PDA is based on it's 100% openness. And even then, if you can't extend the device in any way, what are you going to do with it? Recompile newer kernels to eke out another 1% out of an outdated processor? You're stuck with the same Email, web and PIM that every other PDA in the market has. If you go with BT then maybe the unit can be "expanded" by using BT peripherals. Unfortunately, they're expensive and inconvenient, forcing you to carry and charge multiple devices. That eliminates the "inexpensive" market again.
The original Z's were differentiated by being Linux, their keyboard, and the fact that almost nothing on the market had both SD and CF when they came out. The newer models had better screens than anything else out there, in addition to Linux and keyboards. The 3000 was the first PDA in the world to include a 4gb hard drive, in addition to Linux and the keyboard. Sharp has always been ahead of the PDA curve in some manner.
Take away the keyboard and the expansion, and what do you have left? Linux that you can't do much of anything with. Don't underestimate the impact that the Z's hardware has on the viability of the platform. You don't see a booming import market for A300's, do you?
Now, don't take this rant the wrong way. Having a 100% open and supported platform is a great idea.
You just won't be selling one to me.
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The original Z's were differentiated by being Linux, their keyboard, and the fact that almost nothing on the market had both SD and CF when they came out. The newer models had better screens than anything else out there, in addition to Linux and keyboards. The 3000 was the first PDA in the world to include a 4gb hard drive, in addition to Linux and the keyboard. Sharp has always been ahead of the PDA curve in some manner.
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So that's why they are releasing new devices without bluetooth and wifi in 2005.
</rant>
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that apparently has to do with asia being wirelessly incoherent, so to speak.
I've been contending for some time, that if there is such a standards issue in asia, then they (sharp) should release with more expansion options to compensate the lack of built-in stuff.
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So that's why they are releasing new devices without bluetooth and wifi in 2005.
</rant>
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This has been rehashed quite a bit here. Until relatively recently, Wi-Fi has been pretty rare in Japan, and apparently BT isn't all that popular either. The reason that the Z's have both SD and CF slots is because the Japanese market has cheap and common cellular CF cards. It's never made sense to include Wi-Fi in a Japanese only unit, because a Japanese buyer was more likely to ignore it and pop in a CF cellular card anyway. (I was there last October, and you literally saw display stands for AirH cards *everywhere*! I saw one store that only sold appliances - and they still had an AirH display out front!)
As much as we'd like to blame the current lack of Wi-fi or BT on Sharp's cluelessness, we can't. They're just playing to the market that they designed the things for in the first place. Notice that the only "modern" (usb host, VGA screen) Z released in the US did include Wi-fi as a standard option.
Now, though, Wi-fi usage is on the rise and Buffalo has stopped making their CF Wi-fi cards (and they had a big part of the market there.) We're now more likely to see Sharp build Wi-fi into their next model.
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Dear all,
now as the discussion has calmed down, let me try to draw a first summary.
Regarding the original question about Bluetooth or WiFi, there is a clear winner: WiFi (24:4).
That was much to my surprise - since I had expected that Bluetooth comes out better in a low-end device because it would offer more options to connect to external devices (GPS mouse for navigation, keyboard to better use PIM applications, mobile phone to sync with). But apparently, WiFi (i.e. full IP/Internet access) is more important (in a Linux PDA).
And funny enough, as we have run this discussion, I got the indication from the manufacturer, that they now even consider integrating both - so the result turns out to be of some academic importance.
The second discussion level was generally about the demand for a lower priced device. Here the discussion has puzzled me a lot, since on one hand I (think) I always read that the Sharp Zauruses are more expensive than anything else to reach broader use, but if I propose a less expensive device, it does not have enough functionality or is not extensible enough.
So, the only solution would be that we all use, promote and buy more Sharps so that they come into economies of scale and the price can go down to reach a level where Dell and others already are. So it is about strengthening and extending this community. What about a "proud Zaurus user" button on each of your home pages or a "Zaurus" sticker on your car?
Or is there really no demand for a lower priced Linux-PIM-only-PDA (with reduced functionality of course)?
Many thanks for discussing these topics,
Nikolaus
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You should take into account that most members here allready own a Zaurus.
Hence the lack of interest for something equivalent or less powerfull than what we allready have.
You'll perhaps get different answers if you try to do the same kind of poll elsewhere.
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You should take into account that most members here allready own a Zaurus.
That is a valid argument. On the other hand, especially Zaurus owners should probably know best what they need (would have needed).
But with the announcement of the Nokia 770 for approx. 400 EUR this project seems no longer to be competitve.
Nikolaus
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Then, the best choice would be to focus on one project, not two or three.
You need to make choices between High-end, and low price.You can't have both.Don't let competing products put you down.To me, It's quite expensive.Let's just see what it can do for 400 Euros.
Has anyone considered making a PDA based on the x86 architecture?
Making something like that would probably mean better compatabillity, speedier operation, and probably more benefits.On the downside, you've got a more power-hungry CPU and probably hotter operation.
Anyways, check this out:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2872282951.html (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2872282951.html)
Is it feasable?
Anyways, people are probably looking for an all-around good device, that can handle all kinds of stuff.One example is the Zaurus.Although it is typically of lower spec comparing with the PPC bunch (Except for the Keyboard and the HDD), It's very versatile.And that is cause it runs Linux (Or BSD or ....).I guess that, if you made a all-around device, good screen,good battery life,capable of running (almost) everything you feed it for the next 5 years, with a good storage space, reasonable expansion and a nice form factor, people would consider buying it.It doesn't have to be the most powerfull thing on earth, it has to be different.
Carefull choices have to be made.In my viewpoint, the device must not be something filled to the brim with gimmicks you won't use.It has to be fit to stand to the test of time.
Kudos.
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though what stands the test of time best is probably expansion slots.
seriously though, This isn't a zaurus. The members of this group tend to be techy and finicky. many of us don't use our pdas as pdas at all. Other than the fact that it is a linux device this is the wrong crowd to get good projected sales info on a dedicated pda from.
On the other hand--if we are your proposed market read the posts on new devices (like the nokia 770) see what (and what aspect of it) gets ooos and aaahs and what gets put down. that will give you a clearer picture of what this membership actually looks for.
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Other than the fact that it is a linux device this is the wrong crowd to get good projected sales info on a dedicated pda from.
Well, the forum has been renamed to OESF to be no longer restricted to Zaurus users only.
On the other hand--if we are your proposed market read the posts on new devices (like the nokia 770) see what (and what aspect of it) gets ooos and aaahs and what gets put down. that will give you a clearer picture of what this membership actually looks for.
That is already clear:
++ display (much better than my proposal)
++ Blueooth & WiFi builtin (same as my proposal)
-- no keypad (same as my proposal)
-- no CF (same as my proposal)
-- no Harddrive (same as my proposal)
++ very good price (same as my proposal)
And the last one is not to beat if Nokia is on the frontplate :-)
Nikolaus
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give it a clamshell hinged keyboard with cf slots at either end and (assuming the processor is good) i'd very likely dish out more than nokia is asking--even without their logo --especially if the specs were open...
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About the information regarding this project on the handheld linux (http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Project%20X&referer=C3000) website (I assume this is the same PDA you're reffering to here):
We have been offered to sell a "privately labeled" Linux PDA (Project X) comparable to a Zaurus SL5500G in price and performance (using Qt, but has no keyboard).
What exactly is the advantage in having a PDA that is "comparable" to the 5500 for €300-400 without a keyboard?
I can't really see where the market for this device is going to be. People who buy a Linux PDA because they want to use Linux on a hand-held will most probably want a keyboard, on the other hand, people who buy a Linux PDA to use it as a PDA are normally disappointed. Most Linux based PDAs really aren't all that capable because of their relatively immature PIM/Office apps.
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I have stated this before but feel strongly enought to repeat again - another low end PDA (linux or not) is not needed at all and will be a complete failure. If you can release something that looks like c1000 in terms of form and add all highest end features currently available (cpu,ram,larger screen,hd,built in GPS/GPRS/Wireless/Bluetooth) then everyone at least on these boards (and that's not a small feat in itself) will upgrade sooner or later - someone correct me if I'm mistaken but I have still not seen anyone else releasing or even announcing anything similar - a lot of other manufacturers are releasing interesting stuff but always either keyboard and/or linux are missing - if you are able to include all this and focus on highest end components in my opinion you will have huge success (and you will be surprised how much people will be willing to spend for this - they may not think so now but once the device is out and few reviews hit the net watch everyone reach for their credit cards).
Also, it is critical that some type of open rom is available early so we can for once get started properly out of the gate and not end up having to reverse engineer semi-functional proprietary drivers.
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Also, it is critical that some type of open rom is available early so we can for once get started properly out of the gate and not end up having to reverse engineer semi-functional proprietary drivers.
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Yikes that is asking a lot! Although if anyone were in a position to do something like that it would be a company like handheld-linux.com. Surely they are well placed among forums like these and developer communities (OE etc) to provide the new hardware early and have a mature version of one of these ROMs installed from the start.
There were rumblings of this earlier in the year from a company who took a Psion machine and worked with the Emdebian team. There is information on this forum about this topic, although I don't know the progress as I haven't kept up with the threads.
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About the information regarding this project on the handheld linux (http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Project%20X&referer=C3000) website (I assume this is the same PDA you're reffering to here):
What exactly is the advantage in having a PDA that is "comparable" to the 5500 for €300-400 without a keyboard?
Yes, although the info on that page is a little outdated. It is more a "Project Y" :-)
The advantages I have seen (before the Nokia 770 announcement):
* availability of unused devices incl. warranty etc. (the last recommended price of Sharp for the SL-5500G was 399,- EUR)
* preinstalled OpenZaurus or similar
* lower price than a C1000 to reach a broader audience (not necessarily restricted to Zaurus users) for Linux application software developers
* no keyboard: to make it a small and lightweight entry level device; but use Bluetooth to allow to connect an external keypad
Since most of these points also appy to the Nokia 770, we don't see us able to continue that project. So, we will work with both, Sharp and Nokia in the future.
Nikolaus
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Yes, although the info on that page is a little outdated. It is more a "Project Y" :-)
The advantages I have seen (before the Nokia 770 announcement):
* availability of unused devices incl. warranty etc. (the last recommended price of Sharp for the SL-5500G was 399,- EUR)
* preinstalled OpenZaurus or similar
* lower price than a C1000 to reach a broader audience (not necessarily restricted to Zaurus users) for Linux application software developers
* no keyboard: to make it a small and lightweight entry level device; but use Bluetooth to allow to connect an external keypad
Since most of these points also appy to the Nokia 770, we don't see us able to continue that project. So, we will work with both, Sharp and Nokia in the future.
Nikolaus
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I can see your point here about the advantages of such a system. But I can also see the problems you would face in making this a profitable venture. The niche in this market is not substantial enough really to support the proposed unit with competition from Nokia.
I applaud your company's enthusiasm in researching this product and in involving the Zaurus community during this phase. I think Sharp/Nokia etc could learn a lesson from you.
(They would probably learn not to release so many PDA's that consequently get dropped after a few months )
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(They would probably learn not to release so many PDA's that consequently get dropped after a few months )
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Wo ho... be careful there ... there really arent that many Linux PDA's (consumer oriented) up there, so let them keep coming. At least for Linux to be viable on PDA's there has to be a minimum critical amount of PDA / Handheld releases and the obvious discontinuations of some models before people see it as a viable alternative.
Thats how any technology gains a foot in the market or just loses out for lack of critical movement.
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someone correct me if I'm mistaken but I have still not seen anyone else releasing or even announcing anything similar - a lot of other manufacturers are releasing interesting stuff but always either keyboard and/or linux are missing[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=81605\")
Yeah, the HTC Universal is what you want, but good luck booting Linux on that thing.
Motorola has a Linux smartphone, but its GUI is dumb as a brick, it's not thumb-drivable, and has no keyboard.
Also, it is critical that some type of open rom is available early so we can for once get started properly out of the gate and not end up having to reverse engineer semi-functional proprietary drivers.
Also 100% behind you there.
Yikes that is asking a lot!
You expect to sell a device that offers no functionality?
Although if anyone were in a position to do something like that it would be a company like handheld-linux.com.
Nokia just did it. I doubt hh-linux could come up with 5% of Nokia's project budget. But they don't need to either (see next answer)
The niche in this market is not substantial enough really to support the proposed unit with competition from Nokia.
Nonwithstanding the fact the Nokia platform is clearly better ($350, better screen, and an integrated DSP). Like I've said before, you should be talking to companies who are making the devices into publishing their hardware specifications, not trying to develop your own doomed hardware project.
All the money spent on development can be spent getting a couple of Linux kernel hackers to port the kernel to a decent mobile platform, then plumping [a href=\"http://www.maemo.org/]Maemo[/url] or Qtopia (http://www.trolltech.com/products/qtopia/pda.html) on top of that.
Wo ho... be careful there ... there really arent that many Linux PDA's (consumer oriented) up there, so let them keep coming. At least for Linux to be viable on PDA's there has to be a minimum critical amount of PDA / Handheld releases and the obvious discontinuations of some models before people see it as a viable alternative.
They're getting discontinued because they're a bad alternative to PPC devices (which tends to murder your sales prospect), not out of old age.
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Now, as a dealer I would probably rather think about spending some money in furthering development of this Linux port and convincing Acer to either give me all of their remaining stock (IIRC the n10 is no longer manufactured) or possibly ask them for a good deal on a small production run of this existing design.
Dear all,
thanks to chrget's proposal, I have looked a little more at these opportunities and I can get some final stock of HP Jornada 565 devices and resell them at EUR 279,- (incl. German VAT of 16%, 24 months warranty, shipment within Europe only).
Here are some features:
* Windows Mobile 2002
* SA-1110 206 MHz
* RAM: 32 MB (the 568 would have 64MB but is not available)
* ROM: 32 MB
* 3.5" TFT
and a review: http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/hp565-review.html (http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/hp565-review.html)
This device is fully supported by the Familiar distribution (Linux 2.6 kernel):
http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/SupportedHandheldSummary (http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/SupportedHandheldSummary)
http://www.handhelds.org/projects/jornada56x.html (http://www.handhelds.org/projects/jornada56x.html)
If you are interested, please contact us.
Nikolaus Schaller
The Handheld Linux Shop
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I don't know, but the Jornada 565 just doesn't excite me.
I have an ipaq 3600 collecting dust in a drawer -- which is of the same general era as the Jornada. I stood in line to get the 3600 when they first came out and eventually flashed familiar on it. When the time came for me to want to upgrade, I considered an ipaq 3800 and a Zaurus 5500. I got the Zaurus and haven't looked back since -- the built-in keyboard makes a huge difference.
To me, the Zaurus 5500 should be more like what you should be looking for in a budget priced linux PDA -- 64 MB ram (with root on SD card) and with built-in keyboard -- maybe you should buy up and refurbish and warrantee SL5500s?
The one utility that the PocketPC got reasonably right was the handwriting recognition -- being able to write in cursive anywhere on the screen and to have it recoginzed was killer. I could input text pretty quick that way.
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To me, the Zaurus 5500 should be more like what you should be looking for in a budget priced linux PDA -- 64 MB ram (with root on SD card) and with built-in keyboard -- maybe you should buy up and refurbish and warrantee SL5500s?
Handheld Linux already sells the 5500G. Geeks.com is also selling refurbished 5500's for $164.50 USD.
I wish more choices were available for Linux friendly stores to carry. Why not approach Unication about their new Magpie PDA? It has quite a few nice features for a low-end PDA. Price would need to be less than a C1000. According to BargainPDA they are looking for resellers. http://www.uni.com.tw/magpie_pda.html (http://www.uni.com.tw/magpie_pda.html)
The Magpie seems to have gotten a lot of media attention for its VOIP capabilities, so it might be worthwhile to inquire.
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To me, the Zaurus 5500 should be more like what you should be looking for in a budget priced linux PDA -- 64 MB ram (with root on SD card) and with built-in keyboard -- maybe you should buy up and refurbish and warrantee SL5500s?
Handheld Linux already sells the 5500G. Geeks.com is also selling refurbished 5500's for $164.50 USD.
I wish more choices were available for Linux friendly stores to carry. Why not approach Unication about their new Magpie PDA? It has quite a few nice features for a low-end PDA. Price would need to be less than a C1000. According to BargainPDA they are looking for resellers. http://www.uni.com.tw/magpie_pda.html (http://www.uni.com.tw/magpie_pda.html)
The Magpie seems to have gotten a lot of media attention for its VOIP capabilities, so it might be worthwhile to inquire.
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their site isn't working for me... any one else having problems?