OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: danboid on April 16, 2006, 02:40:38 pm
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I'm starting to think Sharp are taking the p out of Z users
First we had the wzero3- very Z like with phone, camera and FM radio built in but- hurrrgh!- winmobile OS.
Then they tell us they have developed the worlds smallest wifi chips- exactly what Z users have been after (yeah, I know about the 6000 but I prefer the clamshell design)
Now they unleash a mobile phone with full VGA screen- the 904sh. If they can cram 640x480 into that form factor then there's no excuse for not being able to do 800x600 in a clamshell Z, yet this comes at the same time as the massively disappointing 3200 which brought us none of these potential upgrades. Some might argue that no new hardware is good as it means the OZ devs, sashz, maslovsky and co. don't have the headache of supporting a new platform but that just re-enforces Sharps total lack of interest in Z software development.
Sharp today are so much like Commodore in there heyday- amazing technology but couldn't sell water in the desert. With more effort the Z could be the undisputed champion of portable computing yet it seems Sharp can't be bothered. Sad.
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agreed!
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I think there are several reasons, IE price, those 800x600 screens arnet a small jump in price, its more like an order of magnitude, also i dont belive the Z would benifit form more Res, sure you want it but even at a small price increse the performance to cost would be way off
not to mention the CPU, im not sure it could handel a screen that large without a performanc hit and updating would be a pain, as it is 640x480 is larger than the sram that is supposed to be used as the frame buffer and therefore its using the SDRAM as a framebuffer, the pxa's are memorey bus hungry beasts anyway and i think this would degrade performance without a video card
what you should be asking is why sharp didnt include a 2700g video card and VGA out if you wanted a bigger screen as 800x600 will just make everything smaller or higher res at the same physical size (ie in inches/cm)
i would not be supprised if sharp pulls the z line soon or revawps it, but i think they would pull it rather than redo it
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The zaurus is very popular in japan and with the hype of umpc's, sharp has the potential to tap a market the umpc's will not fill. A revamped zaurus (bigger screen, smaller size, GSM, wifi, bluetooth and better software added to existing features) would be a hot commodity.
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Da_Blitz-
Yeah- 2700g was pretty near the top of my list of 'Why didn't they's with the 3200, just pipped by more RAM, wifi, bluetooth and USB 2.0
Surely with a 2700g, 800x600 wouldn't be a problem. 800x600 would make the Z much better for playing videos as it would then be able to handle 720x480 vids without resizing. Also, there are a few progs which don't quite fit onto 640x480- k3b springs to mind but that wouldn't be much fun without the USB2 host.
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true, but real linux people use dvdrecord
the 2700G would be godd plus it can do 1280x1024, usb 2.0 wont happen, there are PDAs on the market that say they are usb 2.0 compatible but they are just telling half truths, they are just 12mbps devices (full speed?) but are OTG compotible (which was introduced in the 2.0 spec) the funny thing is that they dont do the usb host/client thing and are tecicannly only 1.1 campatimble as far as i know there are only 2 other PDA's besides the z's that are host capable
im all for the 2700g if i can find a supplier and that last IO pin i need
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My feeling is that most Zaurus users in Japan are not Linux users. That is, they use the Zaurus as a PDA and don't really care about doing most of the advanced stuff that the people in this forum try to do. Of course there are many exceptions, but on the whole this is true. Non-Japanese Zaurus users are almost all power users, since they had to go to the trouble of importing the unit, converting it to Japanese, etc. So we're talking about a different set of priorities. Lots of non-Japanese users like to try and use their Zaurus as a laptop replacement, so having wi-fi and bluetooth just makes sense. But in Japan wi-fi and bluetooth aren't as common as they are in the US, and in any case most people will be using the Zaurus on the go, where wi-fi connections aren't easy to find. On the other hand, you have CF-sized cellular modems that give you relatively high speed Internet access throughout most of Japan.
My point is that it's not really fair to say that Sharp doesn't know what its doing with the Zaurus. It knows exactly what it's doing. It's just that Sharp's priorities are those of the Japanese market, which don't jibe with what most of us want. It would make no sense for them to cater to a few thousand foreign enthusiasts while ignoring their domestic market. Apparently it's things like extra dictionaries and (god help us) video golf lessons that make a lot of people buy Zauruses in Japan, and not things like wi-fi. This may change in the future, but for now we just have to realize that we're buying something that wasn't really intended for our market and make the best of it. (And just for the record, I would LOVE internal wi-fi on my Zaurus.)
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they could at least include wifi+128MB RAM/ROM, 2700g would be nice for the existing screen, 640x480 fits 99% of what I need.
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as far as i know there are only 2 other PDA's besides the z's that are host capable
lol, no there's a lot of pda's that can do usb host. even back in 1999.
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as far as i know there are only 2 other PDA's besides the z's that are host capable
lol, no there's a lot of pda's that can do usb host. even back in 1999.
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Which PDAs could do it in 1999?
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cmonex is possibly referring to pdas using CF to USB adapter card, whereas Da_Blitz is talking about built-in USB host.
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Mr Blitz
There are probably more but at least both the HTC uni and the PSP feature USB2. A friend of mine owns both and you DO get hi-speed (more than 1.x MB/s) usb2 transfer rates on the PSP but I'm not sure he's properly tested USB on his uni- he's waiting for a stable Linux distro
Command line burning tools are fine for just burning iso images or copying discs but I'd hate to have to have to author even a moderately complex data disc from the command line.
What about CF USB2 cards? Does such a thing exist?
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Mr Blitz
There are probably more but at least both the HTC uni and the PSP feature USB2. A friend of mine owns both and you DO get hi-speed (more than 1.x MB/s) usb2 transfer rates on the PSP but I'm not sure he's properly tested USB on his uni- he's waiting for a stable Linux distro
Command line burning tools are fine for just burning iso images or copying discs but I'd hate to have to have to author even a moderately complex data disc from the command line.
What about CF USB2 cards? Does such a thing exist?
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I wouldn't call the PSP a PDA though, even though it is capable of running a fairly wide variety of software. There's no decent means of data entry (among other problems).
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We seen this same scenario last year a few performance upgrades here and there. I would much rather Sharp spend there time building up to a perfect machine then hurry and produce one with glitches and non functionality. Its easy for a company to look at these forums and develop a machine that can do what we ask but when it shows up its never as it was expected. Many have went out and purchased other machines besides the Zaurus but still love the machine there is nothing comparable. Maslovsky and others who have taken there time to develop software for this machine have not had to drastically change anything but can instead improve upon what they have done. I think this does more for us. I say lets work up to a great machine rather than rush one out thats less than perfect. If Sharp put out a Z that sucked they would lose a lot more customers then putting out a unit with a small upgrade. Only complaint I have is that if there marketing dept. had a clue and knew how to sale products in the U.S they would not be able to keep up with supply and demand.
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dont think i mentioned the psp, thats 2.0 as far as i know
i had an iso or 2 that i had to burn and couldnt find the tools, puls i dont use a gui on my Z, to make a CD you just have to make folder and build the image there (use symlinks for space if you have to)
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cmonex is possibly referring to pdas using CF to USB adapter card, whereas Da_Blitz is talking about built-in USB host.
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nope. i was talking about built in usb host
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as far as i know there are only 2 other PDA's besides the z's that are host capable
lol, no there's a lot of pda's that can do usb host. even back in 1999.
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Which PDAs could do it in 1999?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124292\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
well, a lot of pda's can do it today: a lot of pocketpc's, loox, toshiba, casio... also my sigmarions can do it
and in 1999: several hpc's
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I've got a couple of things to add to the topic, starting with a bit of history.
Circa ~2000 or so my engineer friend and I were working at a University research institute, and we were given an SL-5000D to evaluate. More importantly, we had it directly handed to us by a VP of R&D at Sharp, Japan.
Now, a couple of weeks ago, my friend contacted that VP and had a nice, long chat about the Z, it's shortcomings, and possible market. We found out a few things.
1) That VP has since changed projects. He currently heads up the team for the W-Zero 3.
2) Sharp won't be abandoning the Z in Japan.
3) The reason why they had such a bad relationship with the open source community was literally: They didn't understand it. They didn't know what relationship all those coders had with Linux, or why they'd bother asking for source code. Now, the Japanese mindset is a very, very strange thing but, unfortunately, I've learned enough over the last couple of years to actually believe this statement, sickening and disenheartening as it was. (The VP was actually a very nice man, and had we thought to sit him down two years ago and actually explain a few things to him the Z might have been a different unit today. The lost opportunity that this represents is unspeakable )
4) The Z is basically a glorified dictionary to them.
So don't expect the Z to go away, don't expect any of the features we want to ever show up, and don't expect to see them ever sold in North America again.
Now, before anyone asks, my engineer friend contacted the VP through the head of the research institute we used to work for. I don't remember his name, and I've since misplaced his business card I was too young at the time to consider what a boon that kind of contact could be... The institute itself was reseaching medical applications of video conferencing technology, and had strong ties to Japan (We were partnered with a Japanese Doctor who was developing software for collobarative review of video, and we regularily had prototype equipment from Sharp, Sony, Panasonic, and Mitsubishi.) It was kind of funny having the VP from Sharp through with his entourage - 3 or 4 people in all
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then the other question would be, is there a chance something like the w zero or a future incarnation phone/pda to run linux? I kind of doubt it because it sounds like they've had their noses bloodied once.
I hope the next version of the 770 will have a decent keyboard...
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So don't expect the Z to go away, don't expect any of the features we want to ever show up, and don't expect to see them ever sold in North America again.
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Kahm,
Is this your view of the future of the Zaurus or is this what the Sharp VP said or indicated was the future?
Like everyone else, I hope this is wrong and that Sharp will at the very least integrate wifi and possibly even bluetooth. That would make the Zaurus basically complete from a hardware standpoint. This would leave the CF slot open for specialty devices (GPS, camera, etc), but all essential (at least for me) hardware would be integrated. The developer community can work out any and all software issues.
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as far as i know there are only 2 other PDA's besides the z's that are host capable
well, a lot of pda's can do it today: a lot of pocketpc's, loox, toshiba, casio... also my sigmarions can do it
It's a moot point that a machine is usb-host capable when it runs wince, because there are hardly any drivers available. My Asus A730W is only able to recognise a mouse - no webcams, no digital cameras, no card readers.
-- cheers
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So don't expect the Z to go away, don't expect any of the features we want to ever show up, and don't expect to see them ever sold in North America again.
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Kahm,
Is this your view of the future of the Zaurus or is this what the Sharp VP said or indicated was the future?
Like everyone else, I hope this is wrong and that Sharp will at the very least integrate wifi and possibly even bluetooth. That would make the Zaurus basically complete from a hardware standpoint. This would leave the CF slot open for specialty devices (GPS, camera, etc), but all essential (at least for me) hardware would be integrated. The developer community can work out any and all software issues.
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That was the VPs opinion as filtered through a summary given to me by a cynical engineer. Take it as you will.
Keep in mind that the fellow was no longer in charge of the Z project. We're still waiting to be put in touch with the new head of the Z project.
I really do believe that they see the market for it as more of a high spec dictionary than anything else. It may be the best selling PDA in Japan, but I think I only ever saw 1 PDA being used in public. My friend was there for over a year, and he may have had to use 2 hands to count the PDAs that he saw. Everything else is a smartphone. Basically everyone there has a smartphone and it seems like they spend half their day typing on them.
We're talking about a country that's so computationally backwards that their concept of FTP security is to limit incoming IPs to ones from Japan, use a USB key sneakernet instead of a local area connection to share files (on an internet enabled network!), and do all of their websearches exclusively in Japanese. (One fellow wants to go to a particular location in France, and could only ever find a single tiny photo of it on the Internet - because he was typing the name in katakana. My friend recognized the place and did the search with the name in Roman characters and blew the guy away with the amount of pages on it. Turns out it's a French tourist trap! The company that he was working for was a University spinoff to commercialize an invention by one of the profs. He pulled the same language trick and came up with ten times the number of research papers that the prof thought existed! The list goes on. They have the technology, but *nobody* there knows how to use it!)
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Here's a little more specific breakdown
Kahm,
Is this your view of the future of the Zaurus or is this what the Sharp VP said or indicated was the future?
Like everyone else, I hope this is wrong and that Sharp will at the very least integrate wifi and possibly even bluetooth.
Want to know how popular Wifi is over there? I spend 5 days of my two weeks in Akihabara, Den Den Town, and Sofmap. Want to guess how many CF Wifi cards I saw there? 2. One in the warren of stalls near the station in Akihabara, and one in a Sofmap next to the Zaurus accessories. Heck, the airport's first class lounge doesn't have wifi. My friends found wi-fi access in the first class lounges in little airports in the Middle East, but Japan? Sorry, no go.
That would make the Zaurus basically complete from a hardware standpoint. This would leave the CF slot open for specialty devices (GPS, camera, etc), but all essential (at least for me) hardware would be integrated.
But the *entire* reason for the existence of the CF slot in the first place is so you can stuff your choice of cellular data cards into it. Cellular data cards (SD, CF, and PCMCIA. AirH being the big brand that I remember) are for sale literally *everywhere*. I saw a store with a display of nothing but appliances on the first floor (washing machines, air conditioners, etc) with an AirH stand out front. O.o
I don't know what they stick them in since you don't see PDAs, but every second store will sell you the cards and plans.
The developer community can work out any and all software issues.
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Except that Sharp doesn't know that. They don't know *anything* about the developer community or open source.
That, and the "developer community" is so fractured that we can't get any of the currently existing software to work right, never mind support any radical new ideas coming from Sharp. But that's a topic for a different posting.
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Say, thanks for the reply. I can see that unless there are some changes in what the Japanese consumer wants and what technology they use (wifi) or Sharp decides to market the Zaurus outside of Japan it may not be developed beyond where it is now.
If I were Sharp, I wouldn't build technology into a device that I knew few would use either.
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kahm's analysis makes perfect sense actually - in that, why would Sharp bother with a technology that has no mass appeal in Japan, where the Zaurus sells.
In fact when Sharp decided to cater to the US market (ala the SL-6000) they DID put in Wifi. But for Japanese markets why bother.
Its too bad the US markets didn't appreciate the 6000, but of course Sharp is to blame too - no good software, no aggresive marketing, no visibility, hence it failed.
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I can see why there are few public wifi hotspots in Japan if they have good, cheap data cell coverage, but what about domestic wifi? How do they check their email in the bathr.., er, backyard?
Felipe
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I can see why there are few public wifi hotspots in Japan if they have good, cheap data cell coverage, but what about domestic wifi? How do they check their email in the bathr.., er, backyard?
Felipe
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It's not like wi-fi is completely nonexistent in Japan, but you have to realize that most people live in very small apartments. The appeal of going wireless is somewhat lessened if you really only have one or two rooms to begin with. If they should need to be mobile for a bit, even around the house, I would think many people would just use their cellular card. And I think most people would be horrified by the idea of surfing in the bathroom (some serious hangups about cleanliness there).
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I can see why there are few public wifi hotspots in Japan if they have good, cheap data cell coverage, but what about domestic wifi? How do they check their email in the bathr.., er, backyard?
Felipe
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That's easy. They don't. Many people don't even have computers at home, never mind wifi. My friend lived in a cheap apartment beside a university. The building was full of students and had a high speed VDSL Dslam in the basement.
He had the bandwidth basically to himself - he could max it out at over 40mbit to the ISP. He had so many bittorrent connections going that his router blew up every 2 days when some internal table overflowed.
So, wireless isnt' a big deal for them. They'll just use their cell phones to send the email, anyway.
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It's a moot point that a machine is usb-host capable when it runs wince, because there are hardly any drivers available. My Asus A730W is only able to recognise a mouse - no webcams, no digital cameras, no card readers.
-- cheers
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sorry but you're wrong on this one- there are drivers even for your 730W, may make that piddle pee cee (i.e. pocketpc) more useful
try to search for them, there's one version called the deje usb drivers.. and there was some other one... if i find it i'll let you know..
so with those drivers they can handle the digi cams (not all of them but many) and card readers, hdd's, mouse, keyboard, etc... sometimes even usb wifi and bt.. but the latter requires hacking.. but the WM5 pda's with usb host don't even need hacking.. plug in the usb bt (one of the correct brands of course) and off you go..
even the hpc's from 1999 can do most of this..
but this is off topic, just wanted to correct a few statements, that's all
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sorry but you're wrong on this one- there are drivers even for your 730W, may make that piddle pee cee (i.e. pocketpc) more useful
The only thing that'll make it more useful is if I remove wince
try to search for them, there's one version called the deje usb drivers.. and there was some other one... if i find it i'll let you know..
When I did the searching ages ago the only ones I could find was from a company which made CF->Usb-host adaptors (IIRC), but at the time the download links didn't work. If you do find the links please let me know.
<rant>
Anyway part of my point was, why aren't drivers included? People who buy wince machines aren't exactly the brightest people around (yes I'm stupid to have bought one) they want everything pointy-clicky and plug-and-play and most wouldn't know to go search for drivers.
</rant>
In the meantime the Asus has been put into deep storage waiting for the day when this is ready:
http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/MyPal730 (http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/MyPal730)
-- cheers
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sorry but you're wrong on this one- there are drivers even for your 730W, may make that piddle pee cee (i.e. pocketpc) more useful
The only thing that'll make it more useful is if I remove wince
try to search for them, there's one version called the deje usb drivers.. and there was some other one... if i find it i'll let you know..
When I did the searching ages ago the only ones I could find was from a company which made CF->Usb-host adaptors (IIRC), but at the time the download links didn't work. If you do find the links please let me know.
<rant>
Anyway part of my point was, why aren't drivers included? People who buy wince machines aren't exactly the brightest people around (yes I'm stupid to have bought one) they want everything pointy-clicky and plug-and-play and most wouldn't know to go search for drivers.
</rant>
In the meantime the Asus has been put into deep storage waiting for the day when this is ready:
http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/MyPal730 (http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/MyPal730)
-- cheers
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lol yeah the pocketpc OS is sooo stupid.
well, i think the drivers are usually included with WM5, also with many devices with ce.net 4.x (not WM!)..
so it is partially the OEM's decision (stupid or bright one )
btw one of the things i like about the dist i'm using on my zaurus is that i love not having to install drivers for my cf IO cards (wlan, bt)