OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => Off Topic forum => Topic started by: Snappy on April 24, 2006, 01:32:43 am
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I was just thinking ... since the Zaurus clamshell series is really a full linux OS in a convertible power-packed pda shell, what's stopping Sharp from making a mini notebook using the same ingredients?
Since Word and Excel equivalent is already available on the Zaurus clamshells (and older collie and poodle) series, "office" related apps is catered for. CHECKED
Internet and network apps are present. CHECKED
Multimedia. CHECKED
So what's stopping them?
Besides, they can always continue to use Intel PXA cpu and a internal hdd for storage with perhaps a 5~6" screen, but retain the swivel mode screen. This would mean an InstantOn notebook that can beat the crap out of any UMPC to come for the next few years.
Why aren't they doing it? Why? *ponder*
Would you buy one?
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I was just thinking ... since the Zaurus clamshell series is really a full linux OS in a convertible power-packed pda shell, what's stopping Sharp from making a mini notebook using the same ingredients?
Since Word and Excel equivalent is already available on the Zaurus clamshells (and older collie and poodle) series, "office" related apps is catered for. CHECKED
Internet and network apps are present. CHECKED
Multimedia. CHECKED
So what's stopping them?
Besides, they can always continue to use Intel PXA cpu and a internal hdd for storage with perhaps a 5~6" screen, but retain the swivel mode screen. This would mean an InstantOn notebook that can beat the crap out of any UMPC to come for the next few years.
Why aren't they doing it? Why? *ponder*
Would you buy one?
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Because no one would buy one. I can buy a dell laptop for less than I paid for either of my Zauri. It would never boot windows though.
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How about the mid lower end of Zaurii ... they are around $300 ~ $400 or so imported from Japan.
I would buy one if they made one and priced it around $400~$500, say 6" screen or so. Having InstantOn and a fullOS in a subnotebook convertible formfactor would win me over.
EDIT: BarryW, you got heck of a site with many hardware hacks eh! Very neat!
Ever considered hacking a normal notebook with a wacom tablet to make it into a semi-tabletPC?
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How about the mid lower end of Zaurii ... they are around $300 ~ $400 or so imported from Japan.
I would buy one if they made one and priced it around $400~$500, say 6" screen or so. Having InstantOn and a fullOS in a subnotebook convertible formfactor would win me over.
EDIT: BarryW, you got heck of a site with many hardware hacks eh! Very neat!
Ever considered hacking a normal notebook with a wacom tablet to make it into a semi-tabletPC?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124343\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Thought about it. I couldn't find a digitizer that would fit. They are also kinda spendy at screen sizes.
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Because no one would buy one. I[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124330\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
wrong. i would. buy. one. or more! this would be the perfect size for me!!
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Because no one would buy one. I[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124330\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
wrong. i would. buy. one. or more! this would be the perfect size for me!!
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Yea, but it would be like you and maybe 200 other people. Not really worth Sharp's time and money. That's why they pulled out of the US market. Look at the Vadem, now Main Street Clio, has just about the specs the OP is talking about. If Vadem could get the Clio to run OpenZ or some other linux like os, I'd snap one up too.
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I'm not at all convinced that people are going to want to buy devices like this that run Windows. The chances of them wanting to buy ones that run Linux are even smaller. That's not to say that it wouldn't be nice, but without a sizable market it doesn't make sense to spend money developing something like that.
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I'm not at all convinced that people are going to want to buy devices like this that run Windows. The chances of them wanting to buy ones that run Linux are even smaller. That's not to say that it wouldn't be nice, but without a sizable market it doesn't make sense to spend money developing something like that.
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That's what I was trying to say! English isn't my strong suit...
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At the rate CPUs are getting faster and consuming less power, it won't be too long before something the size of the Zaurus clamshells will be able to run a full desktop OS with a good response time.
The major limitation I have with the Zaurus handhelds now is the availability of software and the responsiveness of more robust programs ported into the embedded Linux environment. If the Zaurus is still around when all this is feasible and provides a good user experience, I believe Sharp will have no choice but to make a Zaurus that will run whatever Linux distro you prefer, as it is with desktops now.
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Well, to many people, running Windows or not will be thing of the past. Especially if all they do is write emails, browse the web, listen to mp3s and watch video clips (not DVDs).
To me, the current Zaurus OS/hardware has one major trumpcard ... actually two-in-one:
InstantOn + Long batt life
I have a collie and I don't find it slow at all, so I think a C1000 hw would be pretty zippy already. If so, it would be an excellent device for many folks.
Vadem CLIO and the other HPC OEMs failed in a sense, not because their products sucked, but because they never quite intended or marketed them for end-users. HPCs were targeted at verticals right from the start.
MS, Intel and UMPC partners are gauging the market very gingerly to decide where to target it. MS stated a $500 bottom price and I believe that was a crucial factor for the subsequent BUZZ.
Vadem and the other HPCs failed because they mostly came in at around $1000 and were intended for verticals. If they had made bigger bets and priced them at $500 back in 2000, maybe the PC landscape might be quite different today. Maybe HPCs might be 30% of the market while desktops and notebooks the remaining 70%.
I believe MS and its croonies kinda signed Vadem and HPCs to their death with the $1k pricing and today, UMPCs (I like Origamis better) will die a same fate if they do not peg their price lower.
I believe Origamis can deliver on the $500 pricetag, but it may be awhile before they do on the battery life. If Sharp or someone deliver on an Origami with a $500 pricetag with a 5~6" screen in the Zaurus clamshell design, they would win.
Last note on why Windows or not, it won't matter. The most popular MP3 player on Earth does not run Windows or a variant of Windows. And its not even from Microsoft. Apple proved that if it does what users want, at the right price, users will lap it up. ... and you do not even need to have the Windows Start Button!
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Last note on why Windows or not, it won't matter. The most popular MP3 player on Earth does not run Windows or a variant of Windows. And its not even from Microsoft. Apple proved that if it does what users want, at the right price, users will lap it up. ... and you do not even need to have the Windows Start Button!
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
The iPod isn't a computer, though -- it doesn't do anything but play media. Well, it does a few other things, but it doesn't run programs or create documents, browse the web or send emails. It is fundamentally a viewer -- even its PDA-like functions are strictly read-only.
The more relevant example might be the Macintosh itself. Despite the fact that the OS is superior to Windows, despite the fact that the hardware is superior to most Windows hardware, and despite the fact that the great majority of the documents and files that consumers use are usable cross-platform, buying a Macintosh doesn't enter most people's heads. Some minor progress has been made in this regard, but to most people, you need to run Windows to "be compatible." This is why I don't see a Linux-based computer (as opposed to a PDA or web pad) gaining widespread popularity. It may not be based in fact, but this kind of mental block is very hard to overcome.
On different note, is it just me or are the designs of these UMPCs just horrible? Sharp got it right with the mini-clamshell.
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Guess you are right on that! It's the "PC==Windows" mindset that is simply impossible to break. Got to hats off to billg for that!
I recently used the HP Jornada 720 handheld at a community area and sure enough, people started crowding and asking what that is. They've practically never seen something like that before and when they heard the price (I got from ebay $135 + shipping), they almost flipped ... that its so cheap! Someone then asked what OS it runs on ... and I told him its WinCE ... and judging from his lack of response, I figure he has no idea what that is.
Ah well ...
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Look at the Vadem, now Main Street Clio, has just about the specs the OP is talking about. If Vadem could get the Clio to run OpenZ or some other linux like os, I'd snap one up too.
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um, i wouldnt buy a clio. thats too big. i'd rather get a subnote then. what i want is something that is still somewhat pda sized with a screen 5-6". not much more than that, please!! somewhere between zaurus (little too small) and between a really small subnote.
other than that... i really don't think only 200 ppl would buy such a thing!!
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to most people, you need to run Windows to "be compatible." This is why I don't see a Linux-based computer (as opposed to a PDA or web pad) gaining widespread popularity. It may not be based in fact, but this kind of mental block is very hard to overcome.
On different note, is it just me or are the designs of these UMPCs just horrible? Sharp got it right with the mini-clamshell.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124422\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
hm, yes it is horrible, those umpcs, but that averatec thing seems not too bad with its size and keyboard... but the keyboard itself sucks eh
as for the windows compatibility... i think it is based on facts. i like the zaurus but it does show it isn't a windows pda
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So what's stopping them?
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Why aren't they doing it? Why? *ponder*
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=124321\")
This comes to mind:
[a href=\"http://www.sharpusa.com/products/TypeLanding/0,1056,74,00.html]http://www.sharpusa.com/products/TypeLandi...1056,74,00.html[/url]?
Not very successful, though fairly cool series. You can even put Linux or *BSD on them if you can find an archive that has the files still.
I don't see how an improved & modernised version would fair any better than that iteration, even running Linux. Especially now that you can get a full-power PC in a size not much larger. Anything like a H/PC would now have to be priced very cheaply to even be considered versus a UMPC, particularly when sub-$600 UMPCs are expected. "Why run a Word substitute when you can just run Word?" will be the question most people will ask if something like what you desire comes out.
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google for "sharp muramasa cv50". it's slightly smaller than the flybook - about the size of an oversize paperback.
it has a beautiful display, but lacks wifi and bluetooth - so the very slightly larger flybook is more useful.
so, why isn't this forum full of people talking about the CV50 or flybook? My theory is that they're just too big to be pocketable - you can carry round the Z in your pocket very easily - even the heavier 3200 is not a burden.
both are x86 based so run linux very easily, and have enough processing power to run full motion video.
if you're willing to go even bigger, there's the Fujitsu Lifebook P7010 aka Loox T70/S
at the end of the day, performance, size, weight, screen size and keyboard utility make for a set of compromises. If you make something modular to give portability - like a mini laptop which requires docking station and external optical devices (no internal floppy or dvd etc), people complain because of all the extra dangly bits to be carried - but build them in and the thing's bloated and heavy.
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I wonder if it isn't price as well. a Zaurus @ 500-6x0 usd new is a hefty enough price. 2000 usd for a flybook is a bit much. At that price pont it becomes neither fish nor fowl... too big to be ultraportable, too small and too 1g crusoe powered to be comparable to a similarly priced notebook from apple or dell or gateway....
For the same 2k usd one could have a zarus, a nice laptop, a good sized usb external hd and a few hundred change.
edit: on the other hand, a slightly larger zaurus with pretty much nothin but a little more screen (maybe a 4.5-5" 800x600 max?", more battery, more ram, bigger (8+?)microdrive, video accel/video out, wifi and bt for a hundred or 2 more might be pretty decent.
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This comes to mind:
http://www.sharpusa.com/products/TypeLandi...1056,74,00.html (http://www.sharpusa.com/products/TypeLanding/0,1056,74,00.html)?
Not very successful, though fairly cool series. You can even put Linux or *BSD on them if you can find an archive that has the files still.
I don't see how an improved & modernised version would fair any better than that iteration, even running Linux. Especially now that you can get a full-power PC in a size not much larger. Anything like a H/PC would now have to be priced very cheaply to even be considered versus a UMPC, particularly when sub-$600 UMPCs are expected. "Why run a Word substitute when you can just run Word?" will be the question most people will ask if something like what you desire comes out.
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erm... the HVGA version of sharp mobilon wasn't actually such a great line.. hm well the keyboard rocked but nothing else did...
the VGA versions were nice but too big for me.
i would still buy a hpc today.. but there aren't any new ones..
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I wonder if it isn't price as well. a Zaurus @ 500-6x0 usd new is a hefty enough price. 2000 usd for a flybook is a bit much. At that price pont it becomes neither fish nor fowl... too big to be ultraportable, too small and too 1g crusoe powered to be comparable to a similarly priced notebook from apple or dell or gateway....
For the same 2k usd one could have a zarus, a nice laptop, a good sized usb external hd and a few hundred change.
edit: on the other hand, a slightly larger zaurus with pretty much nothin but a little more screen (maybe a 4.5-5" 800x600 max?", more battery, more ram, bigger (8+?)microdrive, video accel/video out, wifi and bt for a hundred or 2 more might be pretty decent.
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exactly my thoughts!!!
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edit: on the other hand, a slightly larger zaurus with pretty much nothin but a little more screen (maybe a 4.5-5" 800x600 max?", more battery, more ram, bigger (8+?)microdrive, video accel/video out, wifi and bt for a hundred or 2 more might be pretty decent.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125489\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
You would pay $700-800 for that? If you could get a UMPC for the same price, with better than everything you listed, would you still go with the 'Super Zaurus"? Could you explain your reasoning (either way)?
For myself, that only thing I need instantly would be my contact list, which has been absorbed into my always-on cell phone. Every other use I can think of myself using a mini-computer, whether work or play, the much higher processing power and storage capacity of the UMPC is worth the compromises, (battery life, boot up/resume from suspend time, etc.) if they get the prices down to a more competitive level.
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I'm betting the price will be much higher than that.
Also these things seem to be a child of Microsft and Intel...possibly cool, but to me it just sounds ominous. I guess seeing debian or ubuntu on one of 'em might change my mind about that, though.
If they ran linux, and the price were as mentioned, and they had keybboards... they might, as you suggest, be the better choice. they are a good bit larger than I had in mind, though and the battery life issue would bother me. A smaller superzaurus with a 2700g(?) media processor and a bigger batterry...and a 1.8" hd would be a better travelling companion..longer life, easier to carry good media playback, etc.
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Every other use I can think of myself using a mini-computer, whether work or play, the much higher processing power and storage capacity of the UMPC is worth the compromises, (battery life, boot up/resume from suspend time, etc.) if they get the prices down to a more competitive level.
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um, well, wrong thinking (IMHO)
you can't exactly state battery life is the same as processing power. the user may need one of these more badly than the other.
so, if the UMPC (and not just a UMPC but one that is this small. not all are small enough ) is 1000$ and this zaurus is 600$ i would probably choose the zaurus
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Last note on why Windows or not, it won't matter. The most popular MP3 player on Earth does not run Windows or a variant of Windows. And its not even from Microsoft. Apple proved that if it does what users want, at the right price, users will lap it up. ... and you do not even need to have the Windows Start Button!
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=124420\")
The iPod isn't a computer, though -- it doesn't do anything but play media. Well, it does a few other things, but it doesn't run programs or create documents, browse the web or send emails. It is fundamentally a viewer -- even its PDA-like functions are strictly read-only.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124422\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
But there is a linux port in the works [a href=\"http://ipodlinux.org/Main_Page]http://ipodlinux.org/Main_Page[/url]
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Last note on why Windows or not, it won't matter. The most popular MP3 player on Earth does not run Windows or a variant of Windows. And its not even from Microsoft. Apple proved that if it does what users want, at the right price, users will lap it up. ... and you do not even need to have the Windows Start Button!
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=124420\")
The iPod isn't a computer, though -- it doesn't do anything but play media. Well, it does a few other things, but it doesn't run programs or create documents, browse the web or send emails. It is fundamentally a viewer -- even its PDA-like functions are strictly read-only.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124422\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
But there is a linux port in the works [a href=\"http://ipodlinux.org/Main_Page]http://ipodlinux.org/Main_Page[/url]
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(http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=125636\")
I'm well aware of that, but running Linux on something doesn't make it a PDA. iPodLinux is still very music-focused and while there are some very simple programs that can be run on it, the lack of any kind of reasonable input device kind of makes it hard to do much with them. (And no, [a href=\"http://www.artm-friends.at/rm/ipodlinuxguidedtour/ipodlinuxguidedtour-Seiten/Bild5.html]using the scroll wheel to individually select each letter[/url] is not reasonable.)
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I'm betting the price will be much higher than that.
For the Super Z or the UMPC? There is already an announcement of a $600 UMPC due out in the fall. Most UMPCs to be in the $1500-1800 range for the ones you can get now.
Also these things seem to be a child of Microsft and Intel...possibly cool, but to me it just sounds ominous. I guess seeing debian or ubuntu on one of 'em might change my mind about that, though.
It's more or less an OQO with an enhanced UI for small tablet use, not really a 'child' of either Intel or Microsoft. Many future UMPCs are Via C7 based. There are pics of at least one running Linux, though it was installed before the company had access to 'Origami'.
If they ran linux, and the price were as mentioned, and they had keybboards... they might, as you suggest, be the better choice.
A split-onscreen keyboard (like 'dialkeys') would seem to me to be as good as a thumbkeyboard, though I haven't tried it in person. You can't touch-type on either, but you can get a decent speed with your thumbs.
they are a good bit larger than I had in mind, though and the battery life issue would bother me. A smaller superzaurus with a 2700g(?) media processor and a bigger batterry...and a 1.8" hd would be a better travelling companion..longer life, easier to carry good media playback, etc.
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Understandable.
um, well, wrong thinking (IMHO)
Could you explain your reason for your opinion.
you can't exactly state battery life is the same as processing power. the user may need one of these more badly than the other.
Battery life is typically inversly related to processing power. Could you explain why you would choose one over the other?
I choose processing power. I sometimes need to open large PDF files in not much time. I also like gaming. Unwinding with a quick game of Unreal Tournament 2004 sounds heavenly.
so, if the UMPC (and not just a UMPC but one that is this small. not all are small enough ) is 1000$ and this zaurus is 600$ i would probably choose the zaurus
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And if the prices were the same, or even reversed?
I guess I should explain my viewpoint a bit more. I just finished a year of University, so many of my thoughts are formed based on that kind of environment. I can just imagine throwing a UMPC in the volume of space above the books in my backpack. Downloading and opening up a PDF of the lecture notes over the union's WiFi before class, either for notetation during class, or to study for a quiz would be quite handy. Access to nearly any game, whether native x86 Linux, through Cedega, or even booting into Origami, for a quick game during longer breaks between classes. A quick internet surf during breaks, or even lounging at a friend's, apartment without having to carry around a laptop.