OESF Portables Forum
Model Specific Forums => Sharp Zaurus => Zaurus - pdaXrom => Topic started by: InSearchOf on April 30, 2006, 10:43:36 pm
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For Laze, Sashz and the rest of the pdaxrom community....
Has anyone ever thought of leaving the MatchboxWM and migrating over to XFCE as the default WM...
I would have created a poll but I wouldnt want a big shift of interest that might put some pressure on the developers.... I know this has defiently been thought up... but I'm not sure if it was actually brought up...
Just thowing the idea out there feel free to post you positives and negatives about this idea...
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Has anyone ever thought of leaving the MatchboxWM and migrating over to XFCE as the default WM...
IMHO IceWM would be a better choice. It's small (~3MB memory footprint), fast, loads of features builtin (eg clock, network monitor, cpu monitor are already builtin and don't require separate apps), fully keyboard controllable, yada yada yada.
The only problem so far is that I haven't managed to get IceWM to recognise hotkeys which use modifiers other than SHIFT and CTRL, ie SHIFT-Calendar works but FN-Calendar doesn't.
[Update 2006-05-02 07:23:03]
Here's screenshot of IceWM. As can be seen from the output of 'ps ax', icewm uses very little memory.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Notes on the screenshot:
- the clock is very configurable, what gets displayed is formatted as per the 'date' command. Obviously font and colours are also customisable.
- next to the clock is the cpuload monitor
- then the network monitor (you can specify any number of interfaces to monitor - eth0, wlan0, etc)
- then the battery monitor
- then system tray (holding Stardict and Sylpheed Claws 'new mail' plugin)
- then task bar
- then menu button
-- cheers
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Has anyone ever thought of leaving the MatchboxWM and migrating over to XFCE as the default WM...
IMHO IceWM would be a better choice. It's small (~3MB memory footprint), fast, loads of features builtin (eg clock, network monitor, cpu monitor are already builtin and don't require separate apps), fully keyboard controllable, yada yada yada.
The only problem so far is that I haven't managed to get IceWM to recognise hotkeys which use modifiers other than SHIFT and CTRL, ie SHIFT-Calendar works but FN-Calendar doesn't.
-- cheers
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maybe we should start a discussion on the various wm options and their pros and cons and see which one has the most pros.
probably the most interesting aspects is performance/memory use, automatic window resizing, keybindings, themes and fonts, screen rotation support.
I like iceWM too, already have my custom themes from PocketWorkstation that I can reuse but I will try xfce first when I get to it.
btw, what are the most popular wm commonly used by people on pdaXrom? xfce, openbox, matchbox, fluxbox, icewm, kde, ...?
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I think it is not a big problem to build roms with more WMs.
I mean for example: pdaXrom.XFCE; pdaxrom.iceWM; pdaXrom.KDE...
It should'nt be a problem to do this but personally I would also prefer XFCE (with rox). Maybe I will also give KDE a try to see how fast it is on the Zaurus.
cheers
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I havent tried KDE and in most cases I never will unless it gets slimmed down majorly because of how heavy of a WM it is... XFCE isnt the lightest WM for our Z's but it isnt very bulky. I havent had any problems with it (That I can't deal with)
I'm at work now but when I get some time I will post of my Pro's and Cons with XFCE... I'm thinking there will be alot of Pro's then cons from me...
IMHO IceWM would be a better choice. It's small (~3MB memory footprint), fast, loads of features builtin (eg clock, network monitor, cpu monitor are already builtin and don't require separate apps), fully keyboard controllable, yada yada yada.
I haven't tried IceWM but someone could prolly package all the plugins in to a XFCE-Common package to avoid installing all the packages sperately but that would end up giving you every package... even the ones you dont require...
I'll be back with some more input
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I like Zumi's FVWM package. It's real fast, light, cute but it still lacks some features and it seems not so easy to customize (although it IS very customizable). It's a pity that Zumi doesn't have enough time to implement everything he wants.
XFCE is real nice, cute, it seems easy to add new applets and so on, but I don't find XFCE lightweight enough for the Z.
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I just had to add my two cents to this one!
I vote for xfce, as I find it fast and plenty lightweight. The absolute best thing though is the window resizing - as I use my SL6000 mostly in portrait mode, this is really noticeable vs other WMs. xfce *always* gets it right and resizes windows and dialog boxes to fit.
The one thing that would need fixing is the crashing panel - I use fbpanel instead as its quite stable and more lightweight, but it takes a little fiddling to get it set up out of the box, and the menu needs to be edited by text file. I could see that turning off new users.
Either way, matchbox/openbox is more of a pda/organiser type UI, whereas a more powerful WM would suit the more powerful nature of the Zaurus!
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my .02:
XFCE is very nice, powerfull, versatile ..though I've had problems with the panel disappearing. It is supposedly ( I didn't do the tests) heavier than other options... do we have a clear idea what the actual impact on ...say running other heavy software might be?
ICEWM is great.... but the panel moves on rotation and doesn't come back. Still icewm/rox is an good combo
The current default is nice...fairly light, everything works...can't hide the panel, though---loss of real estate on that tiny screen is an issue
fvwm is very similar to the current sdefault, only lighter, abd it does some strange stuff on resume sometimes. I've been using this one for the past month... i'd realy like a hideable panel here, too
KDE is cool, but way heavy.
My ideal? desktop Icons and good reliable hotkeys available, hideable panel, easy rotation, solid suspend /resume, clear useful accurate system monitors, as light as possible. Maybe none of the above, or a franken-combo, or an improved version of one of the above will meet these criteria. Has anyone given e17 serious thought/configuration/testing?
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Don't forget
Equinox Desktop Environment - very small memory footprint. Does a good job of mimicking the Win9X desktop.
http://ede.sourceforge.net/page/ (http://ede.sourceforge.net/page/)
ROX Desktop - Desktop based around everyone's favourite light GUI file manager
http://rox.sourceforge.net/desktop/static.html (http://rox.sourceforge.net/desktop/static.html)
I prefer both of these over XFCE, which forms the mid-ground between these and KDE/GNOME in terms of resource demands.
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ede looks great!
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I noticed a few posts about the panel disappearing....
i havent had my panel disappear ever...
I dont know how my setup differs from you guys but i do use the xfce/rox combo...
Question for one of the EDE users... could you post a screenshot or PM me one
Does a good job of mimicking the Win9X desktop.
Even though that description doesnt appeal to me :-)
I would still like to see a screenshot
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I noticed a few posts about the panel disappearing....
i havent had my panel disappear ever...
I dont know how my setup differs from you guys but i do use the xfce/rox combo...
Question for one of the EDE users... could you post a screenshot or PM me one
Does a good job of mimicking the Win9X desktop.
Even though that description doesnt appeal to me :-)
I would still like to see a screenshot
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yes, screenshots are a nice idea. we should get one for each wm so at least we all know how they sorta look like for starters
even on openbox, some of the applets disappear after resume/rotation. one of the scripts i noticed restarts the keyboard applet so its always there. maybe the same thing needs to be done for the rest of the disappearing applets.
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I agree meanie... I will grab a screen shot and post up in a few minutes....
Edit
Ok a few minutes has passed... attached is my screenshot...
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- xfce panel disappearing:
It doesn't so much disappear as crash when you try to change settings. Once you have it running and don't want to change things it's usually all right, but is sometimes difficult to get to this state. I believe it has something to do with the menu plugin? Chero could probably tell us all about it.
- rotating:
xfce rotates fine, but fbpanel does the same thing as mentioned with icewm. I relocated it to the top, and it seems it just doesn't move or resize when rotating. Perhaps an extra command to get it to reload in the rotate script might help (as Meanie mentions above). fbpanel is much smaller and less intrusive than most though.
- e17:
Very nice, but a bit finicky. I couldn't manage to edit the menus properly -something funny is going on with the text input boxes too. Also have difficulty starting it sometimes (it just exits without any messages). Reasonably fast (slightly slower than xfce, but not bad). Not so simple to work with, but then enlightenment has always been about working outside the box rather than just copying everything else. Rotating is a no-go (everything slows to a crawl, screen blinks on and off, takes minutes to complete, and then things disappear!).
- performance:
I don't use any desktop icons as I prefer a minimal layout as you can see by screen shots. For those running rox-desktop etc I guess running the extra programs for this functionality would reduce performance against matchbox which has it built in. Can't beat having a useful taskbar though (matchbox needs this at least), and the killer feature for me is the window resizing which actually works!
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Screenshots : http://users.telenet.be/zaurususer/screens2/ (http://users.telenet.be/zaurususer/screens2/) (mainly xfce, but also e17)
As for the discussion : I'll add more tomorrow evening, i'm quite busy till then.
Changing the default window manager : I don't think it would change that much, most of us set pdaX up with the window manager of our choice, that's the beauty of it.
Have fun,
Chero.
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Hi,
As I already mentioned, I believe that, no matter what the default WM is, pdaXrom users will always set up the Z with the window manager of their choice.
As for the crashing panel : it has something to do with the menu-plugin(s). This is a known issue, not Zaurus related. There are 2 different menu plugins : the one provided by xfdesktop (in the default xfce_4.2.2 ipk and the one that has been added as a seperate plugin (start-menu-plugin). The second has more features, but when adding it the first time, the panel almost certainly crashes. Bringing it back through an aterm always brought it back for me (with the plugin loaded).
All the things you can do with other WM's i've read about in this thread (icewm, fluxbox, ...) are also possible in xfce4. I admit, xfce4 is somewhat heavier than others, but I never had any memory problems (except when running xfce4 for several weeks without leaving - the 4.2.2 version has a memory leak and it shows after long times of use). I has been fixed in 4.2.3.2 and seems still fixed in 4.4 beta1 (at least, I haven't noticed anything strange so far).
I was never able to activate light-n-power settings automatically in xfce4 4.2.2. Or the battery-applet didn't do what is was supposed to do (like it is in most WM's from what I read in the forums), or it didn't load on starting xfce. This has been fixed in 4.4 beta1. I'm running a second panel (which has been set to autohide) where the battery-applet is running. It does the light-n-power job properly. To show me the battery status, I use the battery-plugin for the panel.
Most plugins that I've found to be 4.4 ready, work better than their 4.2.2 brothers and sisters. (cpu-load seems correct, so are memory and swap-status and others)
What I was planning to do :
- try to get the graphical login working (logout already works)
- clean the experimental 4.4 packages, add the dependencies
- create a "base" dummy package to install the base system through the deps
- create a "full-option" dummy package to install everything through the deps
- ask the developers to add a wakeup feature to orage, then we can talk about making xfce4 the default wm.
Now all I need is some time to do it all,
Have fun,
Chero.
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my vote is for fvwm... fvwm is a great, fast wm and highly configurable. however, it isn't very newbie friendly... which could be a downside for lots of users... and probably a reason why it will never be selected
i like matchbox, its fast, light... no real problems here
i have played around with xfce before but not on the Z.. will have to give it a go.
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on the other hand an xdm login with wm selection options would be kinda nice.... and make remote xdmcp connections a bit easier (i haven't manged yet, btw)
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how many choices would there be?? 3? 6? 10? how would we decide?
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how many choices would there be?? 3? 6? 10? how would we decide?
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script it to check for installed wms. default would be 1 or 2. you want to install every wm that runson your z? then that would be the number.
My concern would be xdm resource use. I really have no idea what it would use
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yah i meant default... on x86 its easy.... gnome/kde split with maybe one or two else...
i dont know either about the xdm resource. i have no problem sticking with matchbox... i prefer to keep my system minimal so adding more wms to piss about with isn't an idea that i like very much
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As I already mentioned, I believe that, no matter what the default WM is, pdaXrom users will always set up the Z with the window manager of their choice.
I agree, but on the other hand it would be nice to have something a little more powerful as the default - matchbox/openbox is definitely on the PDA side, and somewhat hides the true power of the Z.
on the other hand an xdm login with wm selection options would be kinda nice....
That'd be nice for new users without much Linux experience.
i have played around with xfce before but not on the Z.. will have to give it a go.
It's strange how much difference the environment makes too - I've tried xfce and icewm on my laptop, but they just didn't suit me. On the Zaurus I find it ideal!
I admit, xfce4 is somewhat heavier than others, but I never had any memory problems (except when running xfce4 for several weeks without leaving - the 4.2.2 version has a memory leak and it shows after long times of use). I has been fixed in 4.2.3.2 and seems still fixed in 4.4 beta1 (at least, I haven't noticed anything strange so far).
I was never able to activate light-n-power settings automatically in xfce4 4.2.2. Or the battery-applet didn't do what is was supposed to do (like it is in most WM's from what I read in the forums), or it didn't load on starting xfce. This has been fixed in 4.4 beta1.
That's really interesting - I'm still running 4.2.2 and I haven't noticed any of these problems (only the crashing panel). The mb battery applet works fine with fbpanel, and I have xfce running for long periods at a time without issue. Now I'm keen to upgrade and get even better performance!
ask the developers to add a wakeup feature to orage, then we can talk about making xfce4 the default wm.
Awesome. Personally I think that alarms triggered by atd are best, as that's a nice simple, accurate, and reliable interface for waking up the Z (and other platforms).
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i dont know either about the xdm resource. i have no problem sticking with matchbox... i prefer to keep my system minimal so adding more wms to piss about with isn't an idea that i like very much
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xdm doesn't actually run while the WM is running, does it? I thought that X respawned it when required (i.e. only when no session - maybe xdm is a session?)
There should only be one WM by default - but using xdm would mean that adding another from ipks would be very easy and would operate alongside the existing
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yes you are right karlto, but if matchbox comes default with pdaxrom then that is what i use... with my openbsd boxes i stick with stock (old) fvwm.. maybe that is why i lean towards it. i have always seen installing more programs as being a threat to security... thats the openbsd guy in me... though i have tried fluxbox/blackbox in the past few months which i thought were excellent products.
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There should only be one WM by default - but using xdm would mean that adding another from ipks would be very easy and would operate alongside the existing
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That's kinda the point... ease of use outta the box. and having xdm means easy xdmcp logins from other boxes, which might be nice, if not necessary.
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I'd like to see a login manager like xdm, especially for security reasons. I'd like to force login on resume. I've done this with xscreensaver but a ctrl, alt, backspace can side step this.
That's one of the things I like about OZ/GPE, however I keep coming back to pdaXrom because it works better
My $0.02
Jerry
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Personally, I just use Matchbox because that is what comes on the ROM, but the main reason is because the new ROM's come out so often I keep reflashing. If I had a year to stay with one ROM, I would probably take the time to test and migrate to a new WM.
REASON: It is just too difficult to get a new WM up and running. So many quirks. I imagine I would have to dig through about 5 to 10 forum topics and read them top to bottom, then install a half-dozen packages, and then spend most of a day fiddling with scripts and settings and such.
ANSWER: Instead of asking for "multiple ROMs" or changing the "default" why not just make a VERY GOOD IPK for each WM? If someone made a one click install (ie. an IPK with proper dependencie set up in a feed) for a desktop envirnoment, I would try it.
I realize that the big problem with developing good IPK's is 1. No one tests them more than once, and 2. They tend to break with each new ROM. I find that even when I report a bug in an install to the forums, I just get, "Oh, just go edit this script, or change this setting and it works fine," but no one will bother to fix the IPK. Very annoying at the next reflash, and very annoying for newbies.
If someone has a one-click install for one of these lovely WMs, I'd be happy to test it for them. I'll even test it more than once!
Just be sure to list any known issues. I'll be very annoyed if I loose my battery meter, cannot rotate, or find that suspend/resume becomes flakey.
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ANSWER: Instead of asking for "multiple ROMs" or changing the "default" why not just make a VERY GOOD IPK for each WM? If someone made a one click install (ie. an IPK with proper dependencie set up in a feed) for a desktop envirnoment, I would try it.
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Amen! I wish the same for pdaXrom and OZ.
I'm sure the main problem is that trying to get one WM tweakend and polished is enough work.
What if the dev's worked with people on this forum that enjoy getting their favorite WM up and running each ROM release? Perhaps involve them before a release comes out so that they will have time to get their WM working before the release hits mainstream. That way... New pdaXrom or OZ comes out and you have the option of installing an IPK for XFCE or ICWM, etc. I think that would bring more professionalism, excitement and usablilty to the ROMs.
I don't think anyone will expect it to be perfect right off the bat, but by working together our english Zaurus ROMs could have the freedoms that out desktops do.
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Chero, you know I'll be there for testing and helping other users with xfce
these days I'm having some problems with current pdaxromreleases (sounds like everyone is giving everything for CXX00 models, while my poor C860 has been left alone with new arising bugs )
tomorrow I'll reflash with beta1 (seems stabler than beta2), and I'll be here for testing
Hi,
As I already mentioned, I believe that, no matter what the default WM is, pdaXrom users will always set up the Z with the window manager of their choice.
As for the crashing panel : it has something to do with the menu-plugin(s). This is a known issue, not Zaurus related. There are 2 different menu plugins : the one provided by xfdesktop (in the default xfce_4.2.2 ipk and the one that has been added as a seperate plugin (start-menu-plugin). The second has more features, but when adding it the first time, the panel almost certainly crashes. Bringing it back through an aterm always brought it back for me (with the plugin loaded).
All the things you can do with other WM's i've read about in this thread (icewm, fluxbox, ...) are also possible in xfce4. I admit, xfce4 is somewhat heavier than others, but I never had any memory problems (except when running xfce4 for several weeks without leaving - the 4.2.2 version has a memory leak and it shows after long times of use). I has been fixed in 4.2.3.2 and seems still fixed in 4.4 beta1 (at least, I haven't noticed anything strange so far).
I was never able to activate light-n-power settings automatically in xfce4 4.2.2. Or the battery-applet didn't do what is was supposed to do (like it is in most WM's from what I read in the forums), or it didn't load on starting xfce. This has been fixed in 4.4 beta1. I'm running a second panel (which has been set to autohide) where the battery-applet is running. It does the light-n-power job properly. To show me the battery status, I use the battery-plugin for the panel.
Most plugins that I've found to be 4.4 ready, work better than their 4.2.2 brothers and sisters. (cpu-load seems correct, so are memory and swap-status and others)
What I was planning to do :
- try to get the graphical login working (logout already works)
- clean the experimental 4.4 packages, add the dependencies
- create a "base" dummy package to install the base system through the deps
- create a "full-option" dummy package to install everything through the deps
- ask the developers to add a wakeup feature to orage, then we can talk about making xfce4 the default wm.
Now all I need is some time to do it all,
Have fun,
Chero.
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these days I'm having some problems with current pdaxromreleases (sounds like everyone is giving everything for CXX00 models, while my poor C860 has been left alone with new arising bugs )
tomorrow I'll reflash with beta1 (seems stabler than beta2), and I'll be here for testing
Really? I run Beta2 and it works great.
Personally, I kind of expect development to lean toward the newer Z's. After all, how much word do we hear about the 5500 here? I'm just glad my 760 (same as 860) isn't left in the dust completely!
Also, it doesn't really hurt to let those cxx00 users find the bugs first before the ROM is released to the rest of us.
I think the 860 is pretty well supported. I've had no complaintes.
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I'm generally very happy with stability on my 860, simply the beta2 hangs when you insert cards (cannot understand why), and it didn't happen before this release.
Apart from that, I think support for our "almost old" zaurus is as important as newer's, since it's a measure of the maturity of the project (we're not speasking about a console game: it's an OS, enlarge the user's community is a must ).
Pdaxrom rocks, anyway.