OESF Portables Forum
Everything Else => Distros, Development, and Model Specific Forums => Archived Forums => PocketPenguin => Topic started by: Tom61 on June 06, 2006, 12:00:46 am
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I've had the idea about rolling my own Linux powered PDA for some time, but I've been busy with another project of mine. So, I haven't posted about this idea, but recently Da_Blitz posted:
the iMX3 is a custom PDA idea as the 2700G chip is VERY hard to get. dont want to hijack this thread anymore so if you want more info then contact me direct or make another post
Definately looking for some more info on that!
Here's some interesting ideas to get the thread started:
GumStix ( www.gumstix.com www.gumstix.org ): Very small, proprietary, stackable modules. Very hobbyist friendly, but current models are still based around the Intel PXA255.
Colibri Module (http://www.toradex.com/d/Shop_Colibri_Intel_XScale_PXA270_Single_Board_Computer_Module.php): PXA270 with most of the needed chips built in, and connections for most of the rest, in a formfactor of a DDR SODIMM. Moderately hobbyist friendly, with boards only 119Euros for the 520MHz version, but with a fixed handling fee for Hardware of 100 EUR and shipping of 45 EUR. You'll want to order more than one to be price effective with this supplier.
CM-X270 Computer-On-Module (http://www.compulab.co.il/x270/html/x270-cm-datasheet.htm): I stubbled on to this site last night. No idea about this supplier's ablity to handle hobbyists, or even the cost of the module. However, you can configure a pretty impressive COM on that page. Up to PXA270 520Mhz, 128MB of RAM, Intel 2700G with 8MB of its own RAM, audio codec, and 512 MB of NAND flash!
Take a look at the Google Ads when you do a search for 'Arm development board', as quite a few Ads hit the mark for what we would want, if they could be had cheap, and single unit quanties (which most aren't ).
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I've had the idea about rolling my own Linux powered PDA for some time, but I've been busy with another project of mine. So, I haven't posted about this idea, but recently Da_Blitz posted:
the iMX3 is a custom PDA idea as the 2700G chip is VERY hard to get. dont want to hijack this thread anymore so if you want more info then contact me direct or make another post
Definately looking for some more info on that!
Here's some interesting ideas to get the thread started:
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[a href=\"http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.MX31&nodeId=01J4Fs2973ZrDR]http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/p...=01J4Fs2973ZrDR[/url]
The omap3 chips are also nice in that regard, with integrated graphics and all.
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I have 30+ links to every manufacturer of xscale boards i could find that came in handy on nuemros occasions
one of the reasons i mention it is that i am about to take a couple of months off and am lookinf for a hobby or somthing to do in that time.
the reason i mention the iMX.3 is that you can actually order them from the manufacturer and they are arm11 chips which support multiprocessor i highly doubt this chip still has the multiprocessor stuff in it, i never did like Ti's omap due to reports of bad performance when watching video when compared clock to clock against a pxa250 (no optimisations for ethier) however the intergrated media stuff may be worth a look
atm here is why i like the iMX.3
USB 1 12mbps, 2 480mbps (one of the high speed is OTG compatible)
DDR SDRAM @ 266MHz
Graphics acceleration (instructions and an extra core as far as i can tell)
Random number gererator in hardware
2x SD CARD
PCMCIA
camera interface (with auto color space conversion)
A floating point coprocessor
ATA interface (we could have a Shell like the 3800 compaqs with a HD in it)
so any one want to get together and discuss this in detail i see it costing as much as a c1000 with no profit at our end, i know a company who makes PCB's and populates it for you that has competitive prices so we could just give people the link and they ship it direct. case would have to be purchased from somewhere else but i was hoping we could get a company who could make a cxxxx/XDA4 type case AND a slider type case (like the kjam) that you just put the board in and screw up
minimum feature set i had planned consisted of gsm radio bluetooth usb host SD card 64MB DDR ram.
if i can add it 128/256MB of ram, wifi. CF (should be a no brainer but i want to keep it small) VGA out, a camera, gps (i think an external bluetooth unit is better)
i dought all the last stuff will get in however i am sure that at least one or two of those would be included
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Hot DAMN!
2700G, 128MB+ RAM, VGA out and hi-speed USB2 OTG? If you could somehow get this into a clamshell of a similar size to the Z then my dreams would have come true!
What are you doing about the display though? To really make it perfect I'd want at least 800x480 so I'd be able to plug in a USB DVD drive and watch films on it without using an external monitor.
Personally, I'm not really bothered about SD or PCMCIA but CF is a must-have for me in a PDA.
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- Thanks for the link, koen. Nice feature set on that guy.
- Could you put a link or two out for those boards, Da_Blitz? I'd like to peruse what you consider the most likely candidates for a project like this.
- I'd like to see at least 128MB RAM, at least one CF (prefer two, or more [!]), at least one SD, at least 800x600 touch-sensative display, Psion 5MX-like "full travel" keyboard, at least one USB host port (2.0 nice but 1.1 good enough), and clamshell form factor. Built-in BT/WiFi/HDD would be nice but not strictly required if two CF are present. Video acceleration appears to be part of the package, which is attractive.
- VGA out, camera, and GPS are ginger bread as far as I'm concerned; I don't need them in a PDA and would prefer the inclusion of items above. If I really wanted to go off the deep end I'd include a 100Mbit Ethernet port waaayy before I'd include any one of these three. I never have liked the Rube Goldbergian USB/faux NIC thing that the Z uses ... better to have the real McCoy imho...
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The most problematic I think it's getting a keyboard that fits in a clamshell design. Does any keyboard already exists that would fit ?
If anyone designs this device, I'm first in row to get/build it !
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I'd definately want separate mic and headphone sockets on this as it sounds like a great portable media workstation in the making. An ethernet port would be cool, definately.
How much would a ~5" 800x480 OLED display cost for this?
What would be its best bet for power source/ battery?
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Getting a decent resolution(640x480 or greater) good screen (TFT active matrix or better) in a size suited to a handheld and for a good price is the main problem I've not been able to solve. I can find cheap screens, but they are lower resolution or STN. I have not even found a good source for 640x480 or greater and 5" or smaller screens, save for some PDA repair places, which charge around $200 for a X50v display (640x480 3.7" TFT).
As for the battery, my vote is to find a popular device, with a decent capacity removable Li-Ion battery, and tailor the custom PDA to that battery. That'd give us a good immediate supply of batteries, and likely a decent replacement lifetime.
Thumbboard is trivial. You can pretty much grab any thumbkeyboard you like that hooks to a PDA, take it out of it's case, wire it to a serial port, figure out it's simple protocol (like is done for larger PDA keyboards connected to the Z port), and put it in the clamshell's case. If you want something with less software configuring time, you could grab this PlayStation2 mini keyboard (http://www.gameexpress.com/product_detail.cfm?UPC=837742005709) and hook it up to USB, though it isn't the greatest thumbkeyboard. Also, if you have a keyboard that you really like (like the aforementioned Psion 5MX one), you can rip it open, map out its matrix and wire it up to GPIOs or an existing compatable keyboard controller, pending on your coding level. GPIO would require a fair bit of software dev'ing, but adapting an existing keyboard controller would only require creating a new keymap.
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- As it happens I have both a Psion 5 & a 5mx, which are nearly identical except for color and innards. I suppose replacing the guts in one of those would be out of the question?
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Ok i like this i am not getting the usual "i want 512MB of mem and a 32310238GB drive (even if i say it as well)
what i intend to do is produce a PCB, and mabey a keyboard PCB. i want to leave the cases to some one else to make so you can have a clam shell or perhaps a slider like the k-jam. if i find a form factor like the psion i might make the board fit in the old shell but getting the hardware to work is someone elses responsability, in fact i will give you the design so you can change the board shape and auto-route it yourself, same hardware diffrent shape
what i am looking for is anyone else who wants to help develop the hardware, if you know anyone plese tell them
my minimum at the moment is bluetooth, SD, GSM (Phone), 128MB of mem and USB host, i do plan to make it expandable so design it to take more ram but not solder it on for those who want to expand the design (chip supports 256MB max) there will probelly only be one CF slot as that is all this device supports and it will most likly be internal but depending on the case you will probelly be able to externally acsess it (ie i will try and put it near the edge but dont expect miricles if i cant) might even consider upping it to a full pcmcia slot so the user can chose
i would like to get 802.11N but there is no standard so G it is if its added and Wi Max (there are chips but no drivers) and VGA out as well, cammera would be nice as well but i think that other things with higher priorites will replace it
i intend it to be very mobile phone centric (hence the GSM and bluetooth) or as a mobile phone extended c3k
as such i need input on not only what you want to see but how you would use it, how much you are willing to pay i am looking at between c1k and c3200 price at no profit so keep that in mind
for the bootloader i was thinking a 16MB partion thats RO in hardware and CANNOT be upgraded to hold a kerenel that can kexec another kernel but have utils to do diagnostic and repair, doing it this way means there is NO way you can brick the device as there is always the inital firmware
for screens you could salvage your Z's screen as i said i will build the hardware, not design the entire thing i will try and make it flexible enogh to acamidate a bit of varince in hardware
i am also thinking of selling the design off to any company that is intrested on the basis that we can buy direct from them at discounted prices. i belive this would be an advatage for us and them but i would say1 in 50 chances at the moment
and now some links (including thin terminals and Xlinx FPGA's whigh i would like to have one of on board)
http://www.embeddedplanet.com/products/ep80219.asp (http://www.embeddedplanet.com/products/ep80219.asp)
http://bochs.sourceforge.net/ (http://bochs.sourceforge.net/)
http://www.gumstix.com/spexwaysmalls.html (http://www.gumstix.com/spexwaysmalls.html)
http://legacy.memec.com/cgi-bin/devkits/in...y=UNITED_STATES (http://legacy.memec.com/cgi-bin/devkits/international.cgi?Div=INSIGHT&Country=UNITED_STATES)
http://www.toradex.com/e/shop.html (http://www.toradex.com/e/shop.html)
http://www.applieddata.net/products.asp (http://www.applieddata.net/products.asp)
http://www.simtec.co.uk/products/systems.html (http://www.simtec.co.uk/products/systems.html)
http://www.advantagesix.co.uk/products.html (http://www.advantagesix.co.uk/products.html)
http://www.iyonix.com/ (http://www.iyonix.com/)
http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/products...nix/index.shtml (http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/products/iyonix/index.shtml)
http://www.opencores.org/ (http://www.opencores.org/)
http://www.easyfpga.com/index.htm (http://www.easyfpga.com/index.htm)
http://www.dulseelectronics.com/products/prod_seb3.html (http://www.dulseelectronics.com/products/prod_seb3.html)
http://www.pepper.com/products/specifications.html (http://www.pepper.com/products/specifications.html)
http://www.teamasa.com/npwr_dp.shtml (http://www.teamasa.com/npwr_dp.shtml)
http://www.prolificx.com/products.htm (http://www.prolificx.com/products.htm)
http://www.picocomputing.com/products/cards/e12lo.php (http://www.picocomputing.com/products/cards/e12lo.php)
http://www.knjn.com/index.html (http://www.knjn.com/index.html)
http://openciphers.sourceforge.net/openciphers.php (http://openciphers.sourceforge.net/openciphers.php)
http://www.asics.ws/ (http://www.asics.ws/)
http://www.edaboard.com/forum75.html (http://www.edaboard.com/forum75.html)
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/present.php?p=HowFar (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/present.php?p=HowFar)
http://www.tekgear.ca/index.cfm?pageID=90&...&nodelist=1,103 (http://www.tekgear.ca/index.cfm?pageID=90&prodid=442§ion=103&nodelist=1,103)
http://www.compulab.co.il/all-products/html/products.htm (http://www.compulab.co.il/all-products/html/products.htm)
http://www.opalkelly.com/ (http://www.opalkelly.com/)
http://www.digilentinc.com/ (http://www.digilentinc.com/)
http://www.ntavo.com/ntaterminal.php (http://www.ntavo.com/ntaterminal.php)
look into the team asa stuff they have some great boards for SAN's
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This is getting pretty exciting ...
My needs are simpler ...
Based on my existing Akita
% Screen to be transflective > 4.5"
+ wifi 802.11b/g
+ gsm/gprs (optional)
As it is, Akita is serving me well, esp after I got wifi cf working. A transflective screen should help improve batt power as strong sunlight is available 365days where I am. Built in wifi should mean better antenna and possibly better power management.
GSM/GPRS is optional but is on a Want basis.
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"Ok i like this i am not getting the usual "i want 512MB of mem and a 32310238GB drive (even if i say it as well)"
If you have a 32 petabyte drive, you might as well go for a terrabyte of RAM.
"what i am looking for is anyone else who wants to help develop the hardware, if you know anyone plese tell them"
I'll check on some other forums. Anything in particular you need help with?
"my minimum at the moment is bluetooth, SD, GSM (Phone), 128MB of mem and USB host, i do plan to make it expandable so design it to take more ram but not solder it on for those who want to expand the design (chip supports 256MB max) there will probelly only be one CF slot as that is all this device supports and it will most likly be internal but depending on the case you will probelly be able to externally acsess it (ie i will try and put it near the edge but dont expect miricles if i cant) might even consider upping it to a full pcmcia slot so the user can chose"
Looks good! If you go the CF/PCMCIA route, it might be easiest to have headers one behind the other, and then have the company that populates the board put only one connector on.
"i would like to get 802.11N but there is no standard so G it is if its added and Wi Max (there are chips but no drivers) and VGA out as well, cammera would be nice as well but i think that other things with higher priorites will replace it"
My vote is to have at least solder points for everything the chip supports.
"as such i need input on not only what you want to see but how you would use it, how much you are willing to pay i am looking at between c1k and c3200 price at no profit so keep that in mind"
Not sure if I'm in on this or not, as I've not been so keen on paying a premium for an open platform in the past, although this is certainly an interesting project
"for the bootloader i was thinking a 16MB partion thats RO in hardware and CANNOT be upgraded to hold a kerenel that can kexec another kernel but have utils to do diagnostic and repair, doing it this way means there is NO way you can brick the device as there is always the inital firmware"
I've always been fond of this style of Rom handling, save for the habit of developers not worrying about stability/flashing of the secondary rom.
"for screens you could salvage your Z's screen as i said i will build the hardware, not design the entire thing i will try and make it flexible enogh to acamidate a bit of varince in hardware"
:/ Screens are a pain to get ahold of cheaply, and pulling one out of a $400+ PDA doesn't sound that great.
"and now some links (including thin terminals and Xlinx FPGA's whigh i would like to have one of on board)"
I definately will have to look through these. Interesting diversity for sure... FPGAs certainly are interesting, but I'm not sure with a chip as loaded with features as the iMX3 really needs one.
BTW, does anyone know why using tags by themselves don't work?
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Hmm. . If I remember my XDA's correctly, doesn't a GSM/GPRS phone have basically a second GSM processor, which is accessed either directly, (By taking over the hardware) Or indirectly (From within the other processor)? But still definately a fully functional second processor.
GPRS is a MUST, if 3g isn't a possibility. I think internal wifi is important too, even if it just goes out to an empty socket that can be connected to an external aerial port. If we only have one CF/PCMCIA port available, better get as much onboard as we can.
http://www.dicoll.co.uk/lcddisplays&touchscreensover.htm (http://www.dicoll.co.uk/lcddisplays&touchscreensover.htm) - This site seems to deal with what appears to be a 5" VGA screen with touch panel, didn't mail them though for prices.
Hmm, Keyboards do seem hard to find. . . :/
If we can get access to the equipment to make a motherboard for a "Slot in module" shouldn't we be scratchbuilding completely? And shouldn't we be Getting production numbers made anyway? XP
So, Who wants to set up an OpenPDA corp?
Considering the slowly diminishing interest in the Zaurus outside of Geeks and University Computing students, and the complete lack of open embedded hardware bar the GP2X - |I think it's important that some form of Open Embedded hardware is developed and produced, even if it's Motherboard Only - Although it would seriously improve the number of sales if a ready-made system could be built. . . Just think! You could even Laser-Engrave Tux into the top of the rotating screen!
If someone makes one of these successfully, then I'll even try to make some companion ubiquitous hardware. XP - - (Colour linux watch, based on the same TFT panel from the 6100 or 6230? XP)
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Sod. Forgot my most important thought: The power.
Camcorder batteries! They mostly get modified for use in Zauri anyway, so for our "Open Source Zaurus" Why not use them directly?
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count me in. i have been looking for a project to work on. i also got a few nice toys like a ulink jtag debugger and a few dev boards for procesors like aduc7026 lpc2138 lpc2119, ect. ( i love ebay ). the dev boards i have are mostly for low end arm processors though, so i am thinking of getting a dev board for some higher end arm processors, but i am a poor college student so my budget is not to high. i have tried a little at designing pcb but i have never got the hang of it. you can kind of say i am a jack of all trades.
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[qoute] Looks good! If you go the CF/PCMCIA route, it might be easiest to have headers one behind the other, and then have the company that populates the board put only one connector on.[/qoute]
yeah thats what i am thinking of doing but if board real estate is at a premime i might chose the pcmcia and let you use a pcmcia to cf adaptor
for battries as i said i am only making the board however lookinng at all of this it might be a good idea to prouce one design that fits in the exsisting cxx00 case as you can buy the case seperatly and that means you can use Z battries
you are right about the mobile phone processors, we will most likly talk to it ove a serial port rather than have it built into the chip or mem mapped, this means nice and simple At commands to control the phone and also means we dont have to write software
the gsm is more of a minimum spec however we do have a problem in that each contry uses a diffrent system, i might point out that i also live in australia so its in my best intrestes to make it compatible with whatever we are using here that said it shouldnt be too hard to adapt it or even have plugin cards so you can swap radios (this would also make the board desin simpler)
probelly wont have solder points for everything, mabey a couple of things and the mem bus (thats already 98% of what you need) but i think it will be more like: i want this hardware so i "port" it to the design, reroute (equivelent in software terms would be compile) the board and then get it manufoctured and populateed by a company who returns your design to you in about 3 weeks that way i can jam pack the design
note that doing it that way is really for new hardware, if you want for eg to add bluetooth then there will be a solder point for it only the more exotic stuff will be missing
actually i was thinking sharp would be a potential buyer of the board and would help drive down costs or we sell the design to them under a diffrent licsence (as i want to do a GPL type open hardware design)
I have found a place that sells Xscale chips in small quantities but the iWX3 is ALOT cheaper and has video acceleration built in as well as DDR ram support and a floating point unit so it would take alot for me to switch back to that chip
the chip is also used in the toshiba gigabeat in case any one was intrested about the sutability of this chip
the one thing i forgot to mention is that i also want the ability to turn this into a thin client so on board ethernet might happen or might be limited to the pcmcia slot but it does garentee usb slots and VGA out
this chip also hhas the same problems as the intel in that the pcmcia and cf intreface are shared weth main mem so i am looking into alternatves for storage eg huge flash capacities 2GB max can be done with one chip thanks to samsung and also support for ATA drives (laptop HD anyone) with the ata stuff you may be able ta have a mem only CF slot and a IO capable one, the advatage being that the mem only one will not cause a decrese in performance as it has its own mem bus
touchscreen dosent affect me as i use the console but of course i will add support for it
i might add a loptop ram header so that people can make daghter cards and plug them in, and because it will have the data bus signals it would be posible to add more ram (of course you would have to make a board to take the ram, you cant just put laptom mem in it)
will try for transreflective if i can but i am not making anything but the mobo, i would like others to help with this espesially if you have design skills or if you know where we should look as for electrical people if you know any and they are intrested get them to email me at jaycoles (a) yahoo.com and tell them to include the word ilnux in there message (to bypass my spam filtering
with the price i fugire that you would want more funcitionality at the same price point but if you dont want those parts then i will tell the manufacturer to not solder them on the board
the fpga is there for glue logic rather than use an asic to basically cut my dev costs, they chew throgh power so i would probelly use a cpld instead but might have a fpga avalible as a add in card for devs and hobbiests (eg software defined radio for fm reciver or ham radio)
Ram Max is 256MB so thats plenty, i think that can be done with 4 chips as well so net much real estate for BGA parts
i would really like to see an open hardwae company, at the moment i am working on a project for gensis who make PPC boards and are VERY linux friendly to the point where they are writing XGI graghics card drivers with the 2D open source and the 3D closed because of NDA however the will compile it if you need it and will show you if you sign a NDA (i know its a pain but its not bad) the other thing thats nice is the hardware they have avalible online to play with and the hardware giveaways they have (they are the reason i found this chip)
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WOW thats long
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if i was designing a pda here would be my basic design plan
-the case design would be a real hard decision since there are fans of both clamshell and regular pda design. if it was my decision i would most likely go for the zaurus CXXXX clamshell with tablet folding capability because it seems to be more versitile and easier to integrate a built in keyboard
-ARM processor at least 400 mhz preferably 500-600 range or at least capable or overclocking to that range
-lcd display of at least 320x240 but strongly suggest 640x480 size (try to avoid odd sizes such as 800x480 since that would most likely cost more since there would be less of a demand in the market for that size of display.) touch screen of could would be needed. the size i would look for would be in the 3.5" to slightly over 4" range
-external memory slot in the form of at least 1 CF possibly 2 CF if the chosen processor already has 2 ide channels built in. add a sd in at least mmc 1 bit mode or better yet 4 bit mode since it gives cheap memory expansion in a small size for very little I/O cost
-when it comes to the modern connectivity way of life i would strongly urge to add wireless capabilty with preferably bluetooth and wifi. the wifi capabilty may be best to keep with a CF card if two CF slots are availible. the cost is quite low for the user to add and it gives the option to add a cf wifi card with wardriving features such as external antenna. the bluetooth is an option that should be added to the board even if it is not populated so the user has the option to add it latter or have more than one hardware model so those who do not use bluetooth dont have to pay the extra cost.
-when it comes to ram 64MB is the bare minimun and 128MB is what i would suggest. better yet some memory ic chips have 64MB and 128MB versions in the same footprint so you can have one design with a possibility of two different memory options. better yet if you could find an affordable memory ic with 64, 128, 192, or even 256MB options in the same footprint that would be the best choice.
-when you look at most rom distrobutions 96mb is the lowest i would put in a newer pda since that can easily be filled up. better yet is to use a 128, 192, or 256MB footprint compatable ic in the design like the ram to give more flexibility.
-an integrated keyboard is a must especially in a clamshell design
-built in headset jack and built in microphone/speaker is a must
-USB on the go is a must and since alot of usb devices need a good amount of power i would recomment an optionable external battery pack be designed to be able to clip onto the bottom the the pda to allow longer battery life.
-i can see IR ports being taken over by bluetooth, but i would still include it. as a hardware hacking freindly feature i would design the ir module to be disconnectable and allow a plug to be exposed that could have something else plugged in.
-follow the "if you dont use it dont cover it up" idea. basically if you dont use a pin or line pull it out to a contact pad and document it.
-all most forgot this one. you need a serial port for linux use.
-jtag port pulled out in an easy to use way (dont nessesarly add a header pin to plug it in, but at least have the possibility to add one
-ohh and a gift for the hardware hackers. a cpld/fpga on board with all or most unused or even some used lines run through it for customization.
the hardest things to deal with for this in my opinion would be the display at a reasonable cost.
my case design would most likely be a clamshell with a CF slot on either side and the SD, IR, and usb connectors in the front. and the audio and docking connectors in the back. on the bottom i would have clips for holding an extra battery pack and also expansion plug on the bottom like some laptops have for extra accessories such as a docking station like stuff
ok it is 1:45 here so i should get to sleep i think i got all my idea out, but i might have missed a few.
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well LOL i see someone was also typing a long reply the same time i was
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i would like to add that i like the idea of the freescale i.mx processors. they make really nice stuff at freescale and are quite liberal with samples for working with (can you say free cpu's to build prototypes with ) the i.MX31 processor has a nice 3d graphics accelerator built right in with OPENGL ES support including drivers and libraries.
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And good choice on your Zaurus! POODLE LUV!
If we've got an open board REFERENCE design, then any GPL based company (Hardware Fedora/Mandriva anyone?) can modify that as long as they give the schematics free. XD
GPL hardware seems to be a more profitable thing than GPL software, so I can see a company based on it doing very well, since there aren't many people who are willing to scratchbuild a system.
I think building a retrofit board for a Zaurus isn't the best idea, because the zaurus parts, while available are quite rare in some places, inclusing the UK. It might also be cheaper to have someone press Aluminium cases for example, and there's still the point of a funky logo. On which note, this concept needs a name and logo! If you're doing motherboards, I can see a collaboration with a couple of other community members to make a full PDA.
There are some very small self-contained serial IRDA components out there, so I can see it being feasible to build a hotpluggable connector for IRDA which can be unplugged to leave a Serial/JTAG connector (Why the hell would you need Serial and IRDA simultaneously anyway? RHETORICAL.)]
WOAH! 530mhz? Sweet!
Does a microdrive have a Standard ATA interface? Apparently We can expect 20GB drives either this year or in 2007, so If it's possiblee to include a Microdrive compatible interface that's great. ^^
2 MMC/SD ports: If we don't take advantage of that we're insane. Anyone know a place that does 2-port PCB-mount SD sockets? Either that or it would be worth the space having them parallel. Internal Storage, plus 2x2gb SD. Anyone know if they're SDIO capable?
The disadvantage of PCMCIA is it's mooch bigger. Agreed, it would be nice to be able to plug in a 24/96 12 port digital rec. . . I VOTE PCMCIA!!!! O.O |NOSEBLEED FROM EXCITEMENT|
A Quad band phone will work anywhere. If we can get a Quad Band GSM/GPRS processor onboard, that gives everyone worldwide access. W-CDMA is nice, but it's expensive and not well supported. If we're really desperate, we can always put in a Vodafone PCMCIA card.
But yes. The i.Mx31 is looking to be a pretty good chip!
One final note: A few people have mentioned Cameras. . . If we're making a universal/Spitz clamshell design, I don't think we could go wrong with a camera mounted next to the screen (In landscape), below it (in portrait) since the i.Mx has an inbuilt CMOS/CCD interface. That would allow VoIP, as well as limited photography. The only other design I can suggest for it would be a rotating camera on the edge of the screen, with a 180' swivel.
This would allow camera usage for both conferencing and picture taking. It's either that or USB webcam!
I'm also with the note on TFT panels. 800x480 is just silly. We'll make it harder to get parts, increase the drain on system power and processing capability, for a fairly minimal gain. It's much more important to have a simple useable screen, similar to that of the CXXXX series Zauri, which is perfectly good! XP Besides, if there's going to be some form of External monitor connection, There's not really alot of point!
Finally, I vote for the name "PocketPenguin."
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Forgetting things AGAIN:
Dan, Why the HELL do you need a 800x480 to watch DVD's?
The best quality DVD's available are 640x480 anyway.
Maybe when BD is out. . . But I doubt we're going to be hooking BluRay up to a Zaurus-Type anytime soon. . . Maybe December time?
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Yeah a camera would be nice but i would put it on my first to be droped list if i run out of space the nice thing about it is the image processing unit that fixes up the image the os even sees it (eg color space conversion) this means higher framerates and lower cpu usage
seems audio is a big thing so definattly 1 headphone and 1 microphone on seperate jacks what i was wondering is for the video out, do we want VGA a tv connection HDMI (nice small plug there) and what type of sound capabilities eg 5.1 (ok i am dreaming but keep in mind that i can chuck that in if you want a portable media center) as for 24/96 thats why i boght an audigy usb sound card, but you need usb2.0 to use all 8 channels at that setting (whigch the cxx00 dont)
i was thinking about dvb-t but as we have usb2.0 it dosent matter about bandwidth (see OZ fourm for original post)
i want a list of everything thats posible so i can put up another list that i have gone throgh so people can vote on what they want, keeping in mind i will have final say scince i only plan to produce one then make the plans avalible
it has support for 4mbit irda and i thoght i would throw in CIR to get a longer range so you can use it as a remote
ill just clarify somthing because many people seem to be ignoring it, this is a project to build a mother board, i am not doing cases or LCD screens however i may do a keyboard design, i fuguire someone else is better connected than me in that area and could help out. it also means multiple case options i would like to see the sidways slider format with backlit keys in carbon fiber with a laser etched logo, plus i would love to see the return of the compaq backpack idea and am willing to add an IO header for that (mabey instead of the addin card)
quick price guide
Xscale chips (any of them) $100 or more
iMX3 $20
guess theres no competeion here, both are for small quantity prices and as i said, i have now found sources for both, the free cpu's they have have no video acceleration however the chip is so cheap i dont care
good point about JTAG, i would list that as critical scince thats how i would want to loda the inital firmware, and a serial port is a definit, would you like TTL levels (5v needs external converter) or rs232 levels (12v inverted)
i had an ide about the secure boot, get it to boot into a kexec capable kernel and then have that verify the kernel it is about to run using gpg and a public key, easy to implement and means easy security (of course you dont have to use this feature) best bit is if you burn the public key into the ROM itself to prevent tampering. i think this will be for the hardcore only but it fits well with the camera and mabey a finger print reader to do iris and finger print recignition
names are a good start as they give it a "feeling" or spirit, unless anyone thinks of anything better i am offically calling this the Pocket Penguin Project or PPP
SD thats a good idea i only really planned for 1 but i could add 2, they are SDIO capable if i rebebr corectly but we need drivers and a generic sdio stack, i belive the stack is posible to write without offical documentation and the wifi drivers could also be eginered in time, but we could shortcut this and buy an exsisting stack (about $5 per device if i remeber correctly) but apart from the bluetooth card i dont see the point and scince bluetooth is onboard there is no point (i might clarify i had a sandik sdio wifi card and several CF wifi cards, the CF ones get 4x the range and alot more speed (mainly due to the better signal) i also had that card degrade to the point where i could not use it anymore (refused to be recignised) and this was 5 days after it was out of its 1 mont warantey)
should we set up an IRC channel for a meeting some time it would be a good idea to flesh out these ideas some more
yep microdrives are ATA compatible
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Never used IRC. I think sticking to Forum is better, just for us reets that wouldn't have a clue.
I've been sketching out a generic case design based on the clamshells, just a weeny bit bigger. (I know you're not looking at a case, but to we have everything in the same thread would make sense until some bright spark builds a website. - NOT ME! My server won't boot.)
In my design (Pointy corners, all the hallmarks of an Alpha) I worked around a base design of 126x14x65 (NOT including Screen or hinge - I didn't want to estimate a depth on that) which managed to squeeze 2xSD 2xUSB IRDA, HDMI, Dual 3.5 audio and an Aerial socket for a wifi antennaon the backplate, with the PCMCIA socket running alon the bottom of the case and opening up on the right hand side (In landscape mode) so it would poke out the top in portrait.
I did a basic design for the top of a screen panel, with stereo speakers, (The kind that look like (##) as seen on the Uni)
as well as a rotating camera, on the right hand side. based on a Samsung camera on my Mum's mobile, which seemed to work.
My design left the front panel of the Base unit (Landscape) free for say. . a scroll wheel, and maybe a power or docking connector - Someone mentioned a Powered notebook HDD "Backpack"? which could have it's connector behind a panel on the front.
Only thing I did find, was that with the PCMCIA card there wasn't much room for a battery. . . Since the motherboard will take up the better part of the case, It might be better to lose the PCMCIA in place of a CFIO? A PCMCIA card, socket, and a 750mAh nokia battery took up the whole of the bottom of the case, up to a third of it's depth. . . I don't think we could fit it all in a reasonably sized PDA, and the space on the motherboard for the socket would be better used for onboard Wifi and Bluetooth chips, and all internal storage being onboard flash - A microdrive is quite big after all in a device this size. besides, after 1xCFIO and 2xSDIO. . How much more storage could you want? Even if you're using the CF for something strange, like a 3g card, a 56k modem, or a 10/100 - There's still two SD sockets. for up to 4/8 gb storage.
My refined specs (IMHO) that I looked at after running a design up are:
iMx31 530mhz/133mhz
128/256mb DDR266
4.5" TFT fitted nicely, 5" is getting a bit too large, although if it's all we can get, it can be done.
Separate 3.5mm Line in/Lineout (Or mic, depending)
2xSDIO
1xCFIO
1xHDMI
1xIRDA
2xUSB480
1xCamera - We'll have space in the screen panel for a rotating camera, and it'd be a waste of a good chip function not to include one. ROTATING, to use as Camera and VOIP.
1xEXT wifi Aerial socket. - If people prefer internal that's fine, but several people have added external sockets to their PDA's or cards, maybe a simple folding aerial like on most Routers and Desktops would be worth it? Or maybe just put an internal and a socket?
640x480 Res
NAND Flash - As much as we can fit in there really, I can't see how we can get a CF or MD on a PDa size mobo with Phone, Ext-CF, SDIO
Quad-band GSM/GPRS phone, so we can all use it. ^^
STD mini-Sim socket, as used on every mobile for 12 years
Camcorder-battery Larger than 1500mAh, or if vertical space gets to be a premium, maybe two smaller Phone-types?
APM: Alot of this stuff is going to be big on power drain, so it has to be possible to Software-Power down at least the Wifi, Camera and Bluetooth, and Possibly the phone, too.
We've got a generic geek who can make what are only just unreasonable demands (Me.)
A motherboard Guy (All hail Blitz!)
A name (Of unknown popularity)
What we need, is someone who can seriously look at a case design, and maybe somewhere to manufacture them? When I was making my rough sketch design, I was thinking a ?pressed? Stainless steel or Aluminium shell, about the thickness of the average credit/debit card? (2/3mm)
Just so you know, I based my motherboard size expectation on an ipaq 3950 motherboard that's lying on my desk, (PXA250) and a DragonballVZ-33 from a clie (Which is TINY! o.O)
Since I'm guessing your average Moto-based board will be slightly smaller than say the iPaq board, because of the greater number of integrated components. - My Stacked SDIO idea came from a multilayer board with one conn. on each side.
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Ok got it dropping the pcmcia and making it a backpack
for the board i was thinking mabey even 2 boards staoked ontop of eachother as this would then be about the higet of some of the connectors and gives us huge amounts of real estate this would allow the 2 SD cards above each other, also i hope you estimated full size usb ports as i hate adaptors, plus if you put it on the back it would be great for a docking station
the layout as i see it is CF on one of the shorter sides (left most likly), headphones on the other (headphone and microphone/headphone so 2 or 4 channel depending on settings) USB along the back (at least 1 usb mini socket, if there is room 2 full sized sockets), irda on the back (makes more sense there) and hdmi on the back (for the docking station), antenna will be female and an the back so it sits flush and you can use an adaptor, backpack connector ethier into the CF slot (CF and pcmcia are just diffrent sockets and current draw) or a connector next to the headphone jack
check out the cassiopia for form factor, i have one here and it has a full pcmcia slot and isnt that bad apart from bieng a bit big, i think we might end up with several diffrent form factors at the end of this for a couple of reasons, i would like to see cheap arm "blades" as well, ethernet, 8MB of ROM and 256MB of ram and nothing else so that i can have a native compiling cluster to work with and considering the price of the chips and how integrated they are it would be about half the size of a credit card and would be handy for inital dev work (a cheap platform to test drivers, for devs)
i would drop the rotating screen but am open to leave it in (i never use it or the touch screen) leaving it out simplifies alot of things mechanically and electrily
thats what i imagine anyway, mini sim is a must, wonder if we can use its security features somehow
good point abot the antenna, i agree tat that is a must and would be required if we use a metal case
we need a thick metal case in my opinion as i dent them fairly easily' if its metal i could also use it as a heat sink which is a plus (not sure how hot they get need to check power consumption)
i havent looked at power consumption yet but i would like to stay at around the 2Ah mark as it is a good size and fits nicly with the double boards
it would be intresting to take this design and make it into a long life laptop as well as it has the media capabilities, by keeping it flexible we could do this and these cpu's use 1/10th the power of a laptop (based off xscale power consumption)
i hope to have a website up soon for several resons so that should not be a problem
apm is a must hoever i think that dynamic power gating and freq scaling are very important as well
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I actually think the rotating screen is important, because everybody else DOES use it. XP
Actually, I'd say IRDA should be with Audio at right.
Stacked board makes sense, because it means we can make the overall area covered by the board smaller: This makes fitting in the battery easier, because it means we can use the full internal height of the case for a battery. (Except for the SIM socket under the battery Mobile style.)
If we kept the rear of the case simple, Expansion connector, 2xUSB (Stacked) 1xPower (Same as Zauri - 5V), HDMI, that means that other peripherals can be put on other edges, CFIO at left, the stacked or parallel SDIO on the front.
Apart from the electro/mechanical difficulties, the Clamshell screen makes alot of sense, because it gives extra space at a small volume cost, for example the speakers, camera, and (I actually Really like this idea) a Thumbprint scanner could all be on the screen panel while removing space constraints on the main body.
Are those prices USD? If yes, then I can see a cluster being a cool piece of equipment. say 50USD a blade, a cluster of say 10, would give a nifty BEOWULF dev cluster. I take it they'd load the OS over Network? Cool idea.
RS232 Jtag by the way please! XP
One big point, The Aerial socket can't be flush. If you've ever seen the antennae I'm talking about, they have a big plastic surround at the bottom which screws over the connector.
And another thing, what about a jog-dial? It's the one thing about my clie that I really thought was genius. On the front(right) panel?
Also, with a 2A power drain, that gives us less than an hour on a standard battery (1.8 Amphours, 1800milliAmphours)
That might not be a problem on what is basically a mini laptop that's going to be used as a mostly-mains computer, but for a PDA. . . WAAAAAY overbudget. We need to half that with all peripherals on, and get it even smaller with peripherals off.
I'm looking at say
2 Hours (1Amp) with Phone, Camera, Bluetooth, Wifi all on,
8/9 hours Phone only.
http://www.wirelesspro.co.uk/product_info....products_id=332 (http://www.wirelesspro.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=332)
That's the antenna design I was thinking of.
At some point I'll do a few more sketches of a PDA design. Anyone here a blacksmith?
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try adding the docking connector like i was saying so you can have a docking port or slieve with a pcmcia, camera, and other stuff you could not stuff into the base design availible for those who would want it.
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on that blacksmith point actually yes. i got a 95% completed forge construction project i am working on in my backyard.
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Fancing making cases for the PocketPenguins?
And I'm still hoping we can get a camera on the screen. It's not taking up any real estate inside the body except for the control lines that way, right?
And the expansion connector I was talking about is the connector for the backpack.
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I think you miss the point on a flush connector, what i used to use was a flush connecter on my wifi cards and a female to female adaptor when i needed anything to be connected, this ment that things didnt get caught in the cases i pack everything in, works well
i was hoping to put the fingerprint reader on the board next to the keyboard and have the screen take up the whole face but i guess if we have room then the speakers would go on ethier side, however i agree the cammera facing the user should be on the screen but i belive tha the high quality camera should be an the board itself so you can twist the screen and make it into a normal looking camera (running linux with GIMP )
also i wanted to have a small auxilary screen on the outside of the screen with 4 buttons to control things like music
as i use the thing in lanscape all the time it make sense for me to have it at the back, alse having it at the left means less room for the expansion connector unless i move that to the back (that may be a better way to do it for a docking station) but i guess a compermise is to put it in the corner and make it wide angle, best of both worlds
Jog dial is a must, 2 if i can fit themone on the back and one on the frount so when you have the case closed and in portriat mode you have the screen on the frount with the current song with controls to play/pause and a jog dial on ethier side for next/previos and volume up and down
LOL, 2A power consumption is crazy, i was talking about battery capacity, i am trying to fit in with a power budget of 200-300mAh, this chip seems very low power and by turning things off it makes it easier to achive, the microdrive will break that but its not an all the time so we save power that way
i think its safe to say we can drop the addin card in favor of the backpack/expansion connector
In reference to the laptop and blades i was thinking to have in total the Blades, the PDA and the laptop. the blades would be proof of concept to allow me to have a cheap way to check that all the iMX3 stuff works and allow for a very cheap dev platform, next would be the PDA which is the same as the blade except now i test with new hardware and finally the laptop would be the pda boaurd and an expansion card plus a hard drive in a laptop case
the blades would boot of the network onec every thing is done, i was thinking having a card that the CPU cards slot into (think motherboard and PCI) that has edge connectors with ethernet and serial so you can hot plug them, one advatage is if the jtag port is on that connector then i can use it as a programming interface
the boards bieng so small means i can get them built cheaply, the only problem is that for the minimum order i am looking at mabey 20 of them unless i go thregh a diffrent manufacturere for the prototype
might get a couple of pics up in the next week or so of what i am thinking of, both of the PCB and the case
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there is a cool electronic site called sparkfun i like to go to.
they just had a new product listed that would be interesting for a pda
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...products_id=755 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=755)
[img]http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/images/main-TrackBall-0.jpg\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
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here is a sd card holder unit
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...roducts_id=136# (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=136#)
trasflash holder
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...products_id=127 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=127)
two different CF holders
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...products_id=571 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=571)
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...roducts_id=118# (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=118#)
battery charging ic
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...products_id=674 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=674)
power plug
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...products_id=119 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=119)
audio jack
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...products_id=554 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=554)
mini usb jack
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...products_id=587 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=587)
regular usb a jack
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...products_id=437 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=437)
bluetooth module (it may be best to use one of the 3 usb ports on the i.xm31 and connect to a off the market usb bluetooth module cheaper )
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...products_id=149 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=149)
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Thanks for those links, i was going to sugest droping the touch screen in favor of a joystick but this is much better (besides the fact that every one seems to want a touchscreen), i think this would replace the directinol pad
everything else is alright but i can buy all that stuff from my local electronics store
for the parts as these will be assembeled by the PCB people, getting parts is a bit of a non issue scince the bulk all thier customers part orders together for reduced pricing, i would however like to use freescale parts where possible to keep it consistent
had a thoght and would like comments on it, i want to frezze the inital feature set in about a week so that i can look for suppliers for everything, so should we do this and if so what do you want in the frozzen design (it will only be frozen until i can find all the parts i need then i will unfrezze it and start the process again until we are happy)
for wifi i am thinking somthing madwifi compatible as they have some very cool features eg concurrent running in both AP and station mode multiple concurrent (virtual), access points QoS, Roaming, scan available channels without losing the current AP association (switches to scanning and buffers outgoing transmissions)
bluetooth wise i would like to use a 2.0 adabtor with the enhanced data rate but that module gives me a good benchmark for size
what i feel i will need is an RF egineer for the wireless stuff
once again "holy ****" i like that trackball, keep sending me this great stuff
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i was looking at the size of that trackball and it looks like it is the same size as the ok button on the c series z's. here is a image of the zaurus keyboard
[img]http://mobile-review.com/pda/review/image/sharp/c3100/pic8.jpg\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
i was thinking of having the middle ok button replaced with the trackball and keeping the 4 dirrectional arrow pad. that way you can scroll through the icons with the dirrectional keypad and press down on the trackball for the ok button. the having a button to the lower right ( mirror image to the cancel button on the left) for a switch button to switch between mouse mode and ok button mode (need to find better words) another good part about the trackball is 2 different build in led lights that light up the ball. you can use the two different colors to signify whether it is in mouse mode or ok button mode.
this way you keep the dirrectional keypad all z's have so software will work out of the box with no modifications needed and also you get an integrated thumb mouse with only about 1/8 inch increase in thickness in the center part and a very small increase in the width of the key pad part.
ohh yea found who manufactures it
http://www.ittcannon.com/products/products...pid=10568&cf=pl (http://www.ittcannon.com/products/products.asp?pid=10568&cf=pl)
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in the next week or so i can try working up a prospective 3d model of the keyboard design in blender so we can see how it would work and be able to modify it and view it while working on it
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also iteam #6 on that ittcannon page link would make an excellent jog switch
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the trackball has green, blue, orange, and, red led options. so i was thinking blue for regular ok button setting and red or orange for mouse mode
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I like your ideas alot, seems we have a couple of topic watchers as i come bock 5 mins latter and reply again
have a look at this 3G chip it does Global System for Mobile Communications (GSM), General Packet Radio Service (GPRS), Enhanced Data for GSM Evolution (EDGE) class 12 and wideband code division multiple access (WCDMA) and high speed downlink packet access (HSDPA).
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/p...=01J4Fsm6cyDbFf (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.300-30&nodeId=01J4Fsm6cyDbFf)
looks like we will have to liscence a stack unless someone knows thier way aroud this stuff (but we are talking decoding and all the other stuff for several diffrent protocals)
also it looks like we found our jog-dial, nice pic i wish i had a black case and i like it how in the pic the crome looks like gold
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That reminds me how about wirless usb, there is a linux project in the works at the moment and we wont be able to use it yet but it would turn this into a UWB testbed for linux people (and helps us get drivers quicker)
i thoght we could turn one of the usb ports into a wireless one, ideally we would have wireless client and host but i dont know about any chipsets that can do that
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I like your ideas alot, seems we have a couple of topic watchers as i come bock 5 mins latter and reply again
have a look at this 3G chip it does Global System for Mobile Communications (GSM), General Packet Radio Service (GPRS), Enhanced Data for GSM Evolution (EDGE) class 12 and wideband code division multiple access (WCDMA) and high speed downlink packet access (HSDPA).
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/p...=01J4Fsm6cyDbFf (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.300-30&nodeId=01J4Fsm6cyDbFf)
looks like we will have to liscence a stack unless someone knows thier way aroud this stuff (but we are talking decoding and all the other stuff for several diffrent protocals)
also it looks like we found our jog-dial, nice pic i wish i had a black case and i like it how in the pic the crome looks like gold
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131623\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
anyway we can get an estimated cost on those chips?
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i love freescale products. i think it might be cool to put a footprint for a tri-axis acelerometer on the board so you could detect the orientation on the device. (games anyone ) the footprint is small for the chips so you could add it and just not populate it unless certain users want it on since the chips cost about 6 dollars each for the tri-axis ones.
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count me in. i have been looking for a project to work on. i also got a few nice toys like a ulink jtag debugger and a few dev boards for procesors like aduc7026 lpc2138 lpc2119, ect. ( i love ebay ). the dev boards i have are mostly for low end arm processors though, so i am thinking of getting a dev board for some higher end arm processors, but i am a poor college student so my budget is not to high. i have tried a little at designing pcb but i have never got the hang of it. you can kind of say i am a jack of all trades.
sorry i missed that post earlier, glad to have you on this project, as for me i am 1 week away from cmpleating an electrical engineering course and have some money stashed away for this project, one of the problems with my board manufacturer is that they tend to have a minumum of 2 to 5 boards so its likley ill have some spares to give to devs or people who can enhance the project at a reduced price but dont qoute me on that
as For openPDA corp (ive been reviewing everything said) i have always been using DaBlitz Heavy Industries (homage to old japanese Mecha animation, nearly every mech company had deavy industries in the name) and would like to keep the Heavy Industries part (i just imagine it looking cool on the case see: http://www.bit-tech.net/modding/2005/09/23..._kos_mos/1.html (http://www.bit-tech.net/modding/2005/09/23/project_kos_mos/1.html) and have a look at the logo for vector industries) but really when it comes to that stuff its up to you guys
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seems you have the same idea as i have, the reason i want to use freescale chips is that they seem at least semi-frindly to open source
I actually have an accelerometer from them sitting here right next to me and if used with the trakball you would have a very nice game console, Imagine that trackball with quake and vibration/rumble support (this is a phone after all)
also dont forget it has "OpenGL" support not "OpenGL ES", thats why it has a floating point unit, this along with the video decoding and post processing stuff would allow you to do some incredible things
i think its time to clean up what we have as i have sugested alot of stuff to get people thinking and to add it all will be hard and exspensive.
as for prices they dont list those and some chips dnot have much in the way of infomation, it looks like it will take me some time to type up a letter explaining what we are trying to do and request infomation from them, plus see if we can get small quantites of thier chips
found some info on phone consumtion, the chips consume 200mA when fully active (making a call) but idel at lower power levels, in an ideal world you wouldnt even need linux to recive a call (thats how i am going to try and implement it) but i think that we might need linux to act as a routor to the audio hardware, but thats fine scince the cpu will be idel when making a call most of the time
on the plus side i have found some REALLY juicey SDIO infomation on thier site whigh i plan to foward on to some people
what i would like is Distro devs and kernel devs input, they might want somthing uniqe that will make thier life easier, in fact i wish everyone would post on hear about what the want as the poll has too many limitations to be able to vote an all these features, so far we have seen some very nice stuff to the point that if i was not doing this project i would get one of those tracballs and put it in my Z right now i really like them (beats HP's hx4700 touch pad by a mile)
so i think my final short list comes to (in order of prefrence):
The trackball
iMX3 processor (thoght that would come first didnt you)
between 128MB and 256MB of mem (DDR )
Jtag and serial
Up to 2GB of Flash
Backlit Keyboard
USB 2.0 Host (as we can do video sound and nearly everything from here)
Video out (HDMI)
2x Jog Dials
Bluetooth
Accelerometer
GSM/GPRS
2 SD card slots
Microdrive ar CF mem on ATA port
fpga (for use in conjunction with the docking station)
Docking station (not backpacks but a small station for it to charge from with USB hobs and whatever (vga out?))
Back packs)
CF+ (a CF slot basically)
Wifi
Auxilary Display + buttons
3G
Camera
DVB-T/H
USB Client (I never use it and there are already better options above here to connect to a network like 10/100 usb adaptor)
UWB
Things i wont put on it:
GPS (in my opinion its better over bluetooth and more useful that way, eg can then be used with laptop and also has its own power supply)
Case wise i think aircraft grade aluminium but i would prefer black carbon fiber I personally think that the case will make or break the design, if its sexy to the point where if you pull it out on a bus people will look and drool and wont run away when you say it runs linux but instead ask "whats that" then i would say we have sucseeded
to sum it up i mant a case that puts the curves of HP 1900 series and the htc phone series to shame and i belive blak with a tiny amount of gold trim is the way to do it, plus lose the boxy look of our clamshells and go more like xda4 rounded/oval tablet style, it looks good in blak but would be awsome with a small gold trim
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Quick price list
CPU $30
RAM (256MB) $80
FLASH (1GB) $100
PCB up to $100
all in US and are approx prices with alot of slack, except for the flash which is between 90 to 110 (with less chips bieng more cash)
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[
Quick price list
CPU $30
RAM (256MB) $80
FLASH (1GB) $100
PCB up to $100
all in US and are approx prices with alot of slack, except for the flash which is between 90 to 110 (with less chips bieng more cash)
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well if you put two sd card slots on it i would recommend putting less flash built in. the flash memory should be primarily used to hold the OS and a few aplications. also for some reason SD cards are cheaper that just plain flash chips. that way you can put the more common accessed files on the internal flash and use the sd card for the bulk storage. actually if you put an internal CF slot and an external one on it plus two SD card slots i would have just enough flash to hold the OS plus maybe 20 megs on top of the OS size to put user aps and bigger OS images. with 2 4gig CF/microdrive and 2 1 gig SD you already got 10 gigs of potential storage or more.
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i can work on getting a keyboard design figured out. most likely it will follow the same basic design as the c series zaurus's but with a few modifications
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Ok. . .
The i300 chip is designed as a central core processor that would replace the iMx31 chip. . . NOT a good idea. (Lose at least 130mhz, plus alot of the funkay features)
A big internal flash is good, but on the meantime, let's not go overboard. I think a flash of around 256mb to 512mb would be reasonable, 512 preferrable. That gives us the option of using all our expansion as expansion, instead of just an offboard OS storage.
TWO cameras? WTH??? If we have a rotating camera on the lid, then we can rotate it 90 degrees to get a normal camera anyway (Clam open.) One high quality Cmos is cheaper than two. Also means we could use the trackball as a "Take Photo" button.
Also, on the note of the trackball in the D-pad. . Great idea! But changing modes? If you've got your thumb on it it isn't going to move much. . . But anyway, whatever. If the ball is illuminated, instead of showing trackball mode, why not use it as the power indicator?
When I was looking at the thumbpad idea, my case design had it on the back of the screen panel, or on the front of the screen panel, next to the display, like the new Asus RF1 tablet.
And silver > gold.
Aluminium is a much easier to manufacture (and likely cheaper) case material than Carbon fibre. And what you talkin' about fool? Curved design removes space for connectors and internal circuitry. Besides, you've got a black PDA with a camera, huge screen, Phone, Wifi, Bluetooth, USB, 2 SD cards, Compact Flash, TRACKBALL!
Who the frakk isn't going to notice it?
Also i vote blue LED's. Sky blue. ^^
Freescale is good, I've been a motorola fan since my first amiga. (Now have four, and two palms.) But that Phone chip isn't. It's a replacement processor, not a coprocessor, and is designed for simple mobile phones.
WE ARE GEEKS! LOW PROCESSING SPEEDS ARE BELOW US! |nosebleed|
Internal Microdrive is a big drain on power. . . If it can be done, fit the socket, But with 20GB MicroDrives due next year. . What's the point? Anyway, I'll have a look at sketching out a new case design at some point, if Stamp wants to do that keyboard plan?
And yes, I want "Windows" Keys. XP Okay, Okay, I'm kidding I promise! But Ctrl and Alt are a MUST! O.O
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found a vga lcd screen
http://www.gethightech.com/Merchant2/merch...egory_Code=DELL (http://www.gethightech.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=XX1811&Category_Code=DELL)
it's the same screen used on the x50v dell pda
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i just did a scale drawing of the c3000 keyboard last night and i think it would be no issue to follow the same format and add a few of the "forgotten" keys. i originally wanted to make the keyboad amidextrous but i realized that if i put the dirrectional pad in the middle it would be to hard to reach with thumbs it seems.
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Hey, good thinking! I never thought to use a rep-part screen. Can we get a datasheet on this? No good in having a screen if we can't interface to it after all. . .
But good work. ^^
Also, while I was on SF, I noticed these. . .
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=66_68 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=66_68)
Instead of a replacement for the iMx31, a Quad band version of those modules is what we're looking for.
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...products_id=547 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=547)
This has GPRS class 10 too. . . .
That's functional in UK, USA and Australia. . . No networks still use 800 so they?
Ah well. . . It's good to have that as a backup plan. XD
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Basic layout of CXXXX works, I think. . .
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it seems like lcd modules are really hard to find in the 3.7 inch size. where do pda manufactures get them from? do they have them custom built?
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ebay to the rescue
it's only 320x240, but......
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sharp-3-5-TFT-LCD-Modu...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Sharp-3-5-TFT-LCD-Module_W0QQitemZ7613192400QQihZ017QQcategoryZ73154QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
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Before deciding on a microtrackball, be sure to try one out. They're a far different experience than their larger cousins, IMO. My personal preforence is trackpoints or other analog pointing sticks in that size.
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Before deciding on a microtrackball, be sure to try one out. They're a far different experience than their larger cousins, IMO. My personal preforence is trackpoints or other analog pointing sticks in that size.
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i may buy one to try out in a few days unless Da_Blitz wants to try it out himself.
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i was looking at memory and if we go for 128MB four of these chips, K4H560838D, cost about 44 dollars to get 128MB.
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How about this kind of setup for a motherboard; Have everything that isn't broken out (processor, RAM, Wifi, NAND, etc.) on one card, and then have one or two large headers with connections for everything else (screen, camera, USB, card slots, battery, etc.). I was thinking along the lines of a 2mm pitch 44pin IDC connector (aka laptop IDE connector) mounted with through holes (not SMT mount), as they are easy to get ahold of, small, and versital.
For your 'development blades' you could put on a right angle IDC on the boards.
For the PDA, since you're going two-board anyway, you could have an female IDC soldered facing down on one board, and a mating male IDC on the other and just sandwich them together. This is common on arcade boards, so if you're having trouble visuallising this, I can take pics if you want.
For people like me, who like the idea of retrofitting existing handhelds (one of these in a Tapwave Zodiac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapwave_Zodiac) would make a killer games platform!) and other such things, just use an easy to source laptop IDE cable hand soldered to what needs to be broken out.
I've not counted all the pins needed, but I'm guessing two 44-pin 2mm pitch IDCs would be enough. One for the intergrated IDE controller, and the other for dual SD, CF(if it's too close to fit all, maybe put this on another IDC?), battery, screen, touch, dual USB host, USB client, sound in and out, and a few GPIOs.
If the first boards are setup like this, and have power management (i.e. able to run off and charge batteries), I'd be interested in one.
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well if you are looking at making money from the boards i have seen dev boards for the i.mx31 run in the 2k USD range. if you could put one together for sub 1k USD and possibly close to 500 USD range it would be something you could sell.
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well it turns out that the i.mx31 supports "mobile DDR"
micron is a suplier for that memory
http://www.micron.com/products/mobiledram/ddrsdram/partlist (http://www.micron.com/products/mobiledram/ddrsdram/partlist)
two of these chips MT46H32M16LFCK-75 would give you 128MB of ddr memory and arrow prices them at a few cents under 20 USD each chip. so 40 dollars for 128MB or 80 dollars for 256MB. (remind self to check how many memory chips the i.mx31 processor supports )
the i.mx31 chip also has a built in NAND memory controller (256MB) NAND chip MT29F2G08AACWP that costs about 30-35 USD from arrow. it has the same pinout as the 4Gb (67 USD) and 8Gb(110 USD) chips so it has drop in capatability for 512MB and 1GB NAND if you want that
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iMX3 supports 256MB over 4 chips (64MB per chip select)
The NAND is handy, i was aware of the foct of bieng able to switch them, however did you know that if you use it in 8 bit mode then it gets its own bus, if you use 16Bit mode it shares pins with main mem, personally i would rather RAM performance over flash. anyway its pin compatible so just buy as much as you want, me personally i would get as much as i can but its not really high on my list if i can use other storage
for the camera no ones really said much about it so i assume its 2Mpixel however i always think of them as bieng very tall for the optics and i dont really care about it that much i would rather keep stuff out of the screen to reduce cabling, thats also why i prefer the fingerprint reader under thu spacebar (swipe bar style not a full thumb one)
The i300 is exactly what you said and i threw it out ther as an example because they talk about Everything you need to implemnt gsm, but i think we will have to go to another chip manufocterer for phone functionality, there is no way i will replace the iMX3 at this point in time without a good reason, one problem i do have with the iMX3 is the 800x600 max for video out, but thats probelly fine for what i am using it for initally and i can just make a backpack latter if i need to
money wise i would just like to cover my costs plus a bit extra for futre R&D, those dev blades are exactly how you pictured them in my mind but i thoght "pci cards sticking out of a MOBO" was easier to imagine
the board sandwich layout with the headers sounds about right except i was hoping to have the chips on the 2 boards back to back and i cant remeber how thick the connector you want is off the top of my head (or how high SMT chips are)
basically i get the blades to test if my general assumptions about how to hook things up are right (as well as help porting and compiling) then i send off for the pda to be built (hopefully only once as while i do have cash to build the prototypes i dont have an unlimited acount, mabey get red hat as a sponser )
Docking station connector wise i was thinking somthing small and high density (whiich IDC is not), the connector an the bottom of most PDA,s is 20-32 Pin and im thinking most backpacks arent going to need acsess to the mem bus but perhaps the CF slot and USB, i2c, serial
the amount of boards in the final design depends on the hight of the battery, i intend to make the board stack as tall as the battrey used (in the cas of a Z battery) or as thick as the batt + 1 board (in the case af a mobile phone battery)
id love to get a trackball and might in a couple of weeks as i said i think they sound great might program a chip to do trackball to ps2 and plug it into my comp, id love to try quake with that thing, or stratagy on the Z with the trackball for map nav and the touchscreen for selection
by the way anyone got the miltech manufacturing Documents for electronic components, i heard its an intresting read and want to get a copy
the keyboard will be a point of contention as i use a dvorak layout and like having shortcut keys to speed things up, i peronlaly think there are a couple of small things that can be done with the layout of the Z's keyboard to make it better as well as backlit
for the curved case i have my own reasons, mainly for reception and the fact it looks good but i wouldnt mind black aluminium if we can find a place for the antennas
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can you guys post any links to suppliers you can find or parts so i can run numbers
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i found a 640x480 3.7" lcd
LS037V7DW01
datasheet for it
http://document.sharpsma.com/files/LS037V7DW01_SP_051706.pdf (http://document.sharpsma.com/files/LS037V7DW01_SP_051706.pdf)
arrownac.com said to call for quotes on price
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all the costs i wrote i think i got from arrownac.com
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that lcd also has an option of 320x240 mode by sending one control line high. might be an interesting feature.
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did i say how much i like ebay yet? this auction just finished a few minutes ago and guess who was the high bidder.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=7629095239 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7629095239)
this is what it is http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/devKit/EP7312dk-3.pdf (http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/devKit/EP7312dk-3.pdf)
not as nice as a i.mx31 processor but it makes a nice simple board to practice setting up a simple linux system on
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i found a 640x480 3.7" lcd
LS037V7DW01
datasheet for it
http://document.sharpsma.com/files/LS037V7DW01_SP_051706.pdf (http://document.sharpsma.com/files/LS037V7DW01_SP_051706.pdf)
arrownac.com said to call for quotes on price
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it turns out there is a 4 inch version of this lcd also
LS040V7DD01
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Nice, what terms do you use when you search, as i am looking for a Xlinx fpga kit
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btw there is a reply on the prev. page, i tend to miss the last post on every page. dont know if you guys do as well
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The 4" CGS screen is exactly what we're looking for. . . Same screen used in the SL-6000? XD
74mhz ARM development system? Nice.
320x240 (240x320) mode could be useful for program compatibility. . .
I think it's more important to have a good 266 DDR bus than to get faster storage. The whole advantage of the iMx cpu over the phone CPU is that it has the better memory bus. With the memory bus increase from the standard 133, We should be able to get some pretty 1337 stats from GPE-SystemInfo. Because not only will the faster memory aaffect the memory RW rates, but also the Draw rates. Which will also be affected by the inbuilt 3d/2d accelerator. ^^
I've used a similar system to the trackball before, and they're pretty sweet. I always find that mini-thumbsticks are a nightmare. One point that no-one's mentioned so far: This system WILL need a vibrator. Easy enough to do. ^^ But definately required for use as a phone. Hey, if it can be done on a clie, we can. XP Stamp, wanna find a supplier for vibration units?
No puns were intended, I'm perfectly serious.
Anyone ever seen an old Pentium laptop CPU module? Those press-on sockets would be useful for linking the boards together. . . Probably better than IDE sockets.
I'd like to see 1gb in this system, but if we can get 512mb of NAND for $80, I don't see the point of having more at extra price. . . What the hell are we going to use it for? For installing software only on the Sharp Rom I've yet to beat 64MB. Although for some reason Hentged uses essentially the whole rom space? o.O Ah whatever.
40x SD cards will be pretty nifty with the full interface of the iMx31. They're slow on the earliest Zauri because they only have the basic SD card lines. Full SDIO ports are faster for plain SD, even without SDIO stacks. I think that Freescale are hoping Sony are going to notice the iMx31 when they build their next PSP. . . I mean, built in Memory Stick support? Only Sony use it!
Well, there is going to have to be at least one camera on the screen panel for the sake of the Voip. . . My thinking on it was that using a Mobile Phone type sensor, It's not going to be any taller than the screen panel would be anyway. Moving the Thumbprint sensor (I was thinking slit style too, the Pad's are too easy to hack) onto the main box isn't a disadvantage, I'm cool with your positioning. ^^
Hmm. . . Backlit keyboard would be nice, I'm thinking Nokia style? (Membrane keyboard with built in buttons, and regularly spaced leds, with the keymap being rubber and translucent. Other than backlighting, we could always frontlight it with some small white LED's mounted on the hinge casing? Whatever. I'm still impressed by Loji's glow in the dark tape. . . That would be cool if lighting becomes impractical.
Cabling to the screen. . . How does it work on the Clamshell Z's? (Guylhelm?)
Back to hardware. . . USB client seems a waste of time to me, it means sacrificing one of the three onboard USB hosts. . . (2 external, One wifi, Bluetooth on BTUART?) And with functioning bluetooth, I don;t se the point in it. . . A USB bluetooth adaptor costs somewhere in the region of $10, roughtly the same price of the Usb-Usb cable to connect the PocketPenguin via USB client.
My updated requests list.
Core System
iMx31
256mb DDR - Worth it for the number of "Out of Memory" crashes I get on my Poodle
Storage
512mb NAND flash - More is overkill with he expansion
1x EXT CF - Internal header, sure. . . But only if we're not sacrificing anything major.
2xEXT SDIO - Even if just in SD mode, this gives us alot more expansion to play with. In the unlikely event we run out of internal program storage, We can still have 1x Core SD card and a removable SD card for swapping data to a PC, other PDA, Mobile. . That kinda thing.
Wireless
Bluetooth on BTUART - Serial interface to save USB ports. Needed if only for the sake of the Bluetooth Headset.
Wifi on internal USB - USB PDA modules are lower draining than CF, and use less resources. Also means with the USB2.480 that we can have reliable 802.11G with WPA, which is pretty much a requirement for modern wifi networks, such as hotspots and secure routers.
Triband GSM with GPRS - This is a big one, since my phones are always breaking down, and don't have enough features. Quad band and W-CDMA (3G) are always good, but if modules are hard to find, I'd rather have the base capability.
User I/O:
Qwerty/Dvorak keyboard with Ctrl/Alt - Back/front lit if feasible.
Camera for Voip - One of my biggies. Will save alot of system resources over a USB webcam.
Camera for photos - Not so important to me, but always good if it's feasible.
Four way Directional pad - Definately important, How can I play Zpsx or Snes9x without it???
Trackball - Still not sure on this one, but good if it's not going to cause havok with anything else.
Touchscreen - Much more important than the trackball, because it's one of the things that can't be added externally, as well as being an important UI function. I use mine for alot of things, gaming, drawing, control of applications.
Built in speakers and microphone - It's gonna have phone support, so all the fun of bluetooth headsets not withstanding, This is important for basically Loudspeaker mode.
External Headphone/Mic sockets - This is required in some form, if we run out of space I can deal with a Nokia style 2.5mm socket, but separate 3.5mm would be better.
Vibration - For silent mode as a phone. Also good for zPSX.
Slit-Style fingerprint reader: If we can include this, it would be a very good idea. A friend has this on his ipaQ and it's the only method of login he uses. Along with an encrypted filesystem, we could have almost complete security.
EMP/Ion Cannon. - It's not possible, no no no no NO!
Other Expansion sockets
SVGA output through HDMI - Not high on my priorities, but it is for some people, and shouldn't be too hard to interface. There needs to be some sort of hardware switch to select between internal 640x480, both 640x480 and external-only 800x600.
USB2-480. 2 external, plus one wifi. Client mode is not that useful these days, if you think about it realistically, since every PC can use Bluetooth anyway if it can support the specs needed for USB client, and costs us a USB port. The one advantage of it is that it gives the option to use the PP/Z (PocketPenguin or Zaurus ) as a mass storage device, but if the OS builder adds a program in GPE or Opie to configure a basic SAMBA share (And how useful would THAT be?) The same result can be achieved over a LAN/WLAN or BPAN.
Expansion/Docking connector - This should be easy to add, and provides some good options. Instead of an internal microdrive connector, if the second ATA/CF socket lines are built into the Expansion connector then a backpack/docking station could include a hard disk, CDROM drive and second power source. We could also include one of our two external USB sockets as part of the Docking connector, Which could then link to a USB Graphics card (480mbps. . .) as well as a second keyboard/mouse.
That covers most of our basic features, and if we drop a couple of things, say USB client (Sorry Tom), an internal CF/MD (Sorry Blitz) and a secondary screen we could do it. Secondary screen. . . This is nice, but would anly really be practical on the reverse of the screen panel, to show info while the screen is closed, like a samsung mobile. . . It would be good (A screen like the Nokia 6100 screen on sparkfun would work) but would add extra depth and cabling, as well as some internal electronics. . (How do we wire two screens to one framebuffer?) and power usage (CPU has to be working harder to keep it updated.)
Looks to me like the system is heading towards a cost of about $600-$700 complete with all parts. . . That's not bad! Not THAT much more than a 3200, and is better featured. . .
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Trackball in the middle of the cursor keys? Noooooo!!! I hope I've misread this thread but thats what you seem to be set on. That would ruin it as a games machine- they NEED to be kept separate so that they can be used simultaneously without interfering with one another.
If possible, put the cursor keys to the left of the keyboard and the trackball to the right. The cursor keys make for a good digital joypad and traditionally this is controlled with the left thumb. The right thumb is then free to move the trackball- this would be a great setup for FPS games like the Quake series. Putting the trackball in the middle of the cursor keys would make them unuseable as a d-pad- an OK key is bad enough!
The other thing I don't like is this square corners idea for the case- that would just look naff. What good looking PDA's have had square corners?
I think the fingerprint reader and the extra screen on top are excessive and most people really wouldn't care about these.
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Umm. . . the 5600 is squareish, the Clamshells are squarish? o.o Uni-style is good too. ^^
I agree with you on the idea of the separate trackball too. . . That means we could have say. . . The "ok" button as "Jump" (Krii.) and the trackball select as touch-tap equivalent. (As well as the cancel button next to the Cursors, we could have a Right-click next to the trackball. That gives us the option of using it as a PDA or mini-notebook from day one, something that NO other PDA gives. Not to mention what it'd do for FPS gaming. Any possibility of compiling Quake II for Zaurus / PocketPenguin?
Every game of quake.
Every quad you taaake!
Every frag you make,
Every move you fake, I'll be dodging you.
Erwin: This isn't a song about Stef perchance is it?
Sorry. . . Sorry. . .
The extra screen. . . I agree with you. The ID scanner. . . Doesn't seem like a difficult component to integrate, and everybody I know who has ever had one, uses it. But yeah. Definately agreeing on the trackball. Other advantage of this is that we'd no longer need a way to turn it off ^^ And I STILL say use a blue LED and make it the Power light. . Or a HDD indicator? Or something?
Another point about the trackball is that it will kick the PSP's ass. Analogue thumbstick? BAH! And I STILL want a Q2 port. XP
Hmmm. . . Think someone can be persuaded to make an Open source wifi shootemup from the Q2 source that could run over wifi? An MS PPC port and a PP/Z port, Axim versus PocketPenguin! You could even make the player models dependant on platform. . . Eric S Raymond and Linus Torvalds take on Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer? Deleteware grenades?
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on that trackball idea keeping it seperate like that might work. i was originally thinking of a 5600 format for the design and that way you would integrate it if you could, but if you go clamshell you have the room to have it separate.
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Do we have any semblance of a schematic yet? With the number of features this thing is supposed to have, it sounds like it's going to be huge like Xbox.
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one thing we have not much discused is the wifi chipset. the i.mx31 chip has 2 host usb ports and 1 OTG port.
the OTG port would be the one we use for the external usb port, so we have two internal USB ports availible.
one of the internal USB ports should be used for wifi, since there are many USB campatable wifi chips we can use that have linux support already so it will be easy to integrate. there are a few different chipsets possible to use so we should start looking into ones that would work and be cost efficient.
the second internal USB port can be used for a bluetooth module easily if we dont find another use for it. it seens from what i have seen that the bluetooth modules with usb interface would be cheaper since they would have much more produced and hence cheaper.
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Do we have any semblance of a schematic yet? With the number of features this thing is supposed to have, it sounds like it's going to be huge like Xbox.
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actually most of the chips are surface mount so they are quite small. the processor itself is close to the size of a postage stamp (14mm x 14mm)
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do you mind if I add a few comments to your geek-fest?
if possible, make everything modular to take advantage of commodity items... e.g. SD memory cards are falling in price and gaining in capacity, USB bluetooth dongles have allowed easy upgrade from bluetooth 1.0 to 2.0.
However, this generally increases size (connector), decreases reliability (connector) and increases power (interface/glue electronics).
So, with that proviso, I'll stick my neck out...
1) two SD slots - make sure they're full-speed; one will be the system disk, the other for removable storage. three would be better!
2) minimal flash memory - LOADS of ram (384 or 512M), a small boot rom and boot the device from an SD card. It's also much easier for people wanting multi-boot devices to switch or for developers to test their kernel/system builds. Even better, use a DIMM socket for RAM - benefit from commodity prices.
3) two CF card slots, or one CF + one PCMCIA.
NOTE! a PCMCIA interface doesn't have to be big - as long as you don't mind the card sticking out! make the slot *just* deep enough for a CF card with adaptor. These card slots can be used for wifi, gps, ethernet, GPRS or 3G card, high performance audio adaptor
this also opens up pcmcia sata adaptors and other interesting things! It also alleviated the need for a full backpack system?
4) mobile phones vary too much world-wide and suck too much current - rely on bluetooth link or a CF adaptor. as things move to 3G or 4G/Wimax/wibro, a gsm adaptor will become as useless as IRDA.
5) built-in sound: mono speaker, microphone for voip or dictation.
6) audio connex: stereo headphone (combined with optical out), stereo line-in (with combo optical in)... think: portable recording studio, or even oscilloscope.
7) wireless: built-in bluetooth 2.0 with A2DP for stereo headphones!
wifi: built-in or module? I'd say rely on CF adaptor or usb, cheap, removable, offers choice of 11a/b/g/n without worrying about becoming a legacy interface like wifi.
8) USB: at least two USB2.0 full-speed host and one client (so can be used as slave for usb networking or mass storage). Consider also firewire as this allows connections to video devices as well as mass storage.
9) serial: make a small module which can be for RS232, IRDA and JTAG, or even another bluetooth!
10a) display. well, I think in a sense this is the easiest choice, and provided you pick the right driver chip and interface, means you can go for a range of devices with QVGA, VGA and higher (such as the Lifebook P7120). Must be daylight readable.
The key here is to allow video acceleration without sucking power, so the video accelerator has got to be capable of operating in a very low power mode.
You could also not have an LCD display but instead the new M1 connector and a head-up display!
http://www.presentersuniversity.com/visuals_visuals_PDA.php (http://www.presentersuniversity.com/visuals_visuals_PDA.php)
10b) touchscreen... yes please.
11a) keyboard. yes please. illuminated please!
11b) trackball? maybe?
12) other peripherals:
12a) accelerometer - do microdrives have this built-in?
12b) camera?
12c) ethernet?
12d) math co-pro/ssl accelerator/dsp
12e) I/O expander module for industrial control (A/D, D/A, parallel I/O using I2C), monitoring and measurement.
12f) printer/floppy drive/geiger counter/microwave oven (just checking if you read this far :-)
13) backup-battery - use a small supercapacitor, just so you can switch batteries without losing work. this was a bug-bear with my 860. Also need a good battery control circuit (like Sony's infolithium), with good input protection so you can charge it from almost any power source!
well, that's my dreaming over with! wake me up when I can buy one.
actually, seriously, I think it's perfectly doable... the hardest part of all? Making it PDA sized.
The flybook is an example of what can be achieved, but then it's GBP1500 or over US$2500! I often ponder that it's too big for a PDA, too small to be a laptop (and the Zaurus would be a better PDA, and the Lifebook 7120 would be a better laptop).
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do you mind if I add a few comments to your geek-fest?
sure
if possible, make everything modular to take advantage of commodity items... e.g. SD memory cards are falling in price and gaining in capacity, USB bluetooth dongles have allowed easy upgrade from bluetooth 1.0 to 2.0.
However, this generally increases size (connector), decreases reliability (connector) and increases power (interface/glue electronics).
So, with that provison, I'll stick my neck out...
modular is good but it has a drawback of size (big consern for a PDA), extra power draw(very big consern for a pda), external connections (the same thing will happen that happened to my wireless card. you keep in plugged in just once and you put the pda in your pocket and sit down..... snap goes the card )
1) two SD slots - make sure they're full-speed; one will be the system disk, the other for removable storage. three would be better!
planned two sd cards since they are small in size and the processor has two ports for them already.
2) minimal flash memory - LOADS of ram (384 or 512M), a small boot rom and boot the device from an SD card. It's also much easier for people wanting multi-boot devices to switch or for developers to test their kernel/system builds. Even better, use a DIMM socket for RAM - benefit from commodity prices.
i agree on the use external memory idea, but ther is a problem. most NAND chip manufacturers have stopped or slowed making chips under 128MB in size. RAM IS GOOD that being said 256MB is about the most i think we can stuff into this as it supports 4 chips max (someone verify this) and the mobile DDR chips come in 512Mb (64MB) max that i have seen. hence we can only get 256MB max. socketed chips are bad for stuff like this since they are very large in comparison
3) two CF card slots, or one CF + one PCMCIA.
NOTE! a PCMCIA interface doesn't have to be big - as long as you don't mind the card sticking out! make the slot *just* deep enough for a CF card with adaptor. These card slots can be used for wifi, gps, ethernet, GPRS or 3G card, high performance audio adaptor
this also opens up pcmcia sata adaptors and other interesting things! It also alleviated the need for a full backpack system?
the processor supports 1 ata/pcmcia slot and 1 CF slot. so the you can have one CF slot and possible another CF slot and have on the bottom a expansion port for the full pcmcia port (pcmcia backpack?) that that disconnects the second CF and takes over (must see if this is possible)
4) mobile phones vary too much world-wide and suck too much current - rely on bluetooth link or a CF adaptor. as things move to 3G or 4G/Wimax/wibro, a gsm adaptor will become as useless as IRDA.
i slightly agree since the clamshell design is not very good for a phone and if you need mobile data connectivity...bluetooth to the resue... , but i have not had enough experience designing boards so da-blitz would be the final decision maker on this. note: if you did add a phone to this the cost would go up and it would make it a bluetooth only device most likely.
5) built-in sound: mono speaker, microphone for voip or dictation.
of couse speakers are a must (mp3 ) and a microphone would be also. they would take up very little space and exery PDA have them now days
6) audio connex: stereo headphone (combined with optical out), stereo line-in (with combo optical in)... think: portable recording studio, or even oscilloscope.
stereo headphones would be a must. microphone in is one of those nice but not a pass or fail feature. you could add an oscilloscope but is it really practical on a pda??????
7) wireless: built-in bluetooth 2.0 with A2DP for stereo headphones!
wifi: built-in or module? I'd say rely on CF adaptor or usb, cheap, removable, offers choice of 11a/b/g/n without worrying about becoming a legacy interface like wifi.
i dont see bluetooth changing much in the future while maintaining it's stand on low power short range use, so integrating bluetooth should be no issue. a bluetooth chip capable of stereo audio is something that is a very good thing to work for. as for the 11g access i would see it staying around for a while with the large market it has already in infastructure. plus if something new came out in 3-5 years you could add it with the CF slot.
8) USB: at least two USB2.0 full-speed host and one client (so can be used as slave for usb networking or mass storage). Consider also firewire as this allows connections to video devices as well as mass storage.
well the processor has 1 OTG USB (host and slave) and two host USB. the OTG would be external for sure, but the two just plain USB would most likely be used for internal connections such as USB and 11g. we could add doccumented contact points though so hardware hackers could have fun.
9) serial: make a small module which can be for RS232, IRDA and JTAG, or even another bluetooth!
serial is a must especially for debugging. i think the processor supports 5?? serial ports total (though some may be multiplexed) , so 1 serial external plus possibly a few with contact points on the board for hardware hackers
10a) display. well, I think in a sense this is the easiest choice, and provided you pick the right driver chip and interface, means you can go for a range of devices with QVGA, VGA and higher (such as the Lifebook P7120). Must be daylight readable.
The key here is to allow video acceleration without sucking power, so the video accelerator has got to be capable of operating in a very low power mode.
You could also not have an LCD display but instead the new M1 connector and a head-up display!
http://www.presentersuniversity.com/visuals_visuals_PDA.php (http://www.presentersuniversity.com/visuals_visuals_PDA.php)
VGA display is a definate goal. for size we are most likely looking at 3.5 up to max of 4 inches. i found two displays at 640x480. one 3.7 inch and another the same but it was a 4 inch model.(they have the same interface i think so you can design off of that and when we start doing the case design we can plug in the most appropriate display) some people were looking into an external display port of some sort but we will have to make sure that it is feasible. head-up display??? if you have that much money can i have some.
10b) touchscreen... yes please.
yes and built into the lcd i was looking at.
11a) keyboard. yes please. illuminated please!
keyboad yes think clamshell zaurus design. illuminated hmmmm with some of the slim led's i have seen it is a definate possibilty. even if we could not put backlighting for the keyboard we could put a few led's on the display part so the could light up the keyboard.
11b) trackball? maybe?
very small in size so it wont take up to much room. plus it is a unique feature i could see other pda's adopting in the future
12) other peripherals:
12a) accelerometer - do microdrives have this built-in?
12b) camera?
12c) ethernet?
12d) math co-pro/ssl accelerator/dsp
12e) I/O expander module for industrial control (A/D, D/A, parallel I/O using I2C), monitoring and measurement.
12f) printer/floppy drive/geiger counter/microwave oven (just checking if you read this far :-)
a) nice feature and takes very little space maybe 8x8 mm if pc board space. we could add contact points with no issue and then decide latter if we want to populate in. this also give hardware hackers more fun.
camera nice since there is hardware built in to the processor to help this, but i have been trying to figure out where you would put it to be usable.
c)ethernet possible but wired connections are being superceeded by wireless and those few who need ethernet could buy a CF ethernet card
d)the processor has a built in 3d graphics chip plus floating point math, so i dont see this as much needed
e)io expander... well if we add a docking like port with the pcmcia line that really opens it up since it could include data lines to allow custom hardware for this and software to be added.
f)
printer, use USB(drivers needed) irda(drivers needed) bluetooth(drivers needed) 11g(drivers needed). basically we need drivers so existing USB drivers in linux are the most likely to be usable
floppy, use USB (drivers needed)
other stuff......well good luck stuffing that in
13) backup-battery - use a small supercapacitor, just so you can switch batteries without losing work. this was a bug-bear with my 860. Also need a good battery control circuit (like Sony's infolithium), with good input protection so you can charge it from almost any power source!
good idea using a supercap, or better yet use a 2032 battery or some other Li watch battery so you could "sleep" the pda and use it to keep ramother stuff powered while you change batteries.
well, that's my dreaming over with! wake me up when I can buy one.
actually, seriously, I think it's perfectly doable... the hardest part of all? Making it PDA sized.
The flybook is an example of what can be achieved, but then it's GBP1500 or over US$2500! I often ponder that it's too big for a PDA, too small to be a laptop (and the Zaurus would be a better PDA, and the Lifebook 7120 would be a better laptop).
the goal is to have hardware cost about c3000 range or less but give more
ok i am done for now
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i am having trouble getting these quote thingies to work right
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Do we have any semblance of a schematic yet? With the number of features this thing is supposed to have, it sounds like it's going to be huge like Xbox.
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actually most of the chips are surface mount so they are quite small. the processor itself is close to the size of a postage stamp (14mm x 14mm)
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Schematic probably wasn't the right word. I'm talking more along the line of things like the D-Pad, Trackball, 3 Card Slots, 2 Cameras, Full Keypad, Fingerprint Reader, Speakers, 2 USB Ports, etc.; almost all of those things have to be of a decent size of they're not even of any use. I'm not worried much at all about SMCs because most of the internals can be handled SoC-style, I'd imagine.
But it sounds like you guys want to build a ultraportable laptop and not a PDA. If I can see some good drawings, I'd be much less concerned.
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Do we have any semblance of a schematic yet? With the number of features this thing is supposed to have, it sounds like it's going to be huge like Xbox.
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actually most of the chips are surface mount so they are quite small. the processor itself is close to the size of a postage stamp (14mm x 14mm)
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Schematic probably wasn't the right word. I'm talking more along the line of things like the D-Pad, Trackball, 3 Card Slots, 2 Cameras, Full Keypad, Fingerprint Reader, Speakers, 2 USB Ports, etc.; almost all of those things have to be of a decent size of they're not even of any use. I'm not worried much at all about SMCs because most of the internals can be handled SoC-style, I'd imagine.
But it sounds like you guys want to build a ultraportable laptop and not a PDA. If I can see some good drawings, I'd be much less concerned.
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for the basic shape think zaurus c series
well for the CF one on each side(left and right) (one external one internal same as c3XX series or if we could manage it have both external). sd slots are small so we could stack two of the on top of each other in the front of the pda, or possible have one regular sd slot and one transflash if we run into space concerns since they are the same connections just smaller. camera only 1 and you would most likely put it on the top with the display since it would work good there and you would have space availible. on keyboard note it would not be a full size it would be like the cxxx series with possibly a few buttons added/moved around. for fingerprint reader they are about 1cm^2 and surface mount and most of the work is done by the processor which will consume about 20-100 mhz of power depending how fast you want to compute it(i talked to an engineer who designed fingerprint readers at a comdex a few years ago). they also make a slide type that takes up less room but you don't just put your finger on it you slide it across it. speaker and mic are small and can take as little as about 1 cm^3 combines i estimate. for USB we would use the small OTG connector most likely and possibly 1 full size if we dont use the port internally.
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Glad to see my separate trackball + cursor keys/d-pad idea went down so well!
With all these ports and features that are planned as default I too am very concerned about its size, weight and its battery life. I too would prefer something approx the size and shape of the Zaurus c models but I wouldn't mind if it got just a tad bigger- no bigger than the Psion 5 though (so we could maybe 'be inspired' by its keyboard ). I'd just like to repeat one of those points, propose a mantra for this whole project even. Please-
CONCENTRATE ON GOOD BATTERY LIFE!!!
I'm sure 99% of the forum will understand the caps.
I'm yet to discover if my C3000 is capable of running audacity well- pdaxrom was very unstable for me and OZ still lacks a few big features so I'm stuck with Cacko still. However, I believe OZ will be a great OS by the time the Pocket Penguin is complete. True, we will probably have to wait for a few drivers again but I have no doubt that this thing could easily be used for multitrack recording and music synthesis/sequencing on a small scale. It would be much more suitable than the C3000 because it would have a dedicated (and stereo) input, more RAM and USB2 for more ports and that all-important hi-speed external DVD burner! Yum!
OESF is surely the most exciting forum on the web for computing enthusiasts?
EDIT
Obviously this CPU will be much better than the pxa270 at floating point- but how will it compare at integer calcs with a 624Mhz 270? Would our cxxxx's still be better at something?
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How about a IR LED that are used by standard consumer electronic remote controls.
Lance
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CONCENTRATE ON GOOD BATTERY LIFE!!!
Ditto. It's very interesting to read about the diverse "gadgets" that people here want on their ideal PDA. But my number one concern is the battery life. It's all very well having the coolest PDA around, but if it cannot operate for more than a few minutes without being tethered to the mains then it's not a very practical PDA. The battery life should be at least on par with the current Zs (ie 6-8 hours in the case of C3100). But if the battery can be hot swappable then probably 3-4 hours could be acceptable.
Making the charging circuitry more flexible would also be a huge bonus. It's quite worrying to hear tales of fried Zauruses when given slightly higher than 5 volts. There are devices available which apparently charges mobiles using a wind-up clockwork mechanism (similar to the "one-laptop-per-child" laptop) and it would be neat if these could be used on the PocketPenguin (TM pending).
As for the case I may be able to contribute. I'm based in HK and have easy access to south China's manufacturing facilities and thus could obtain quotes and prices. However as this is not an area I'm familiar with (my past experience in manufacturing metal items only includes buckles and metal plaques) and so would need as much info as possible from someone more knowledgeable so I/we won't get ripped off
-- cheers
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if possible, make everything modular to take advantage of commodity items... e.g. SD memory cards are falling in price and gaining in capacity, USB bluetooth dongles have allowed easy upgrade from bluetooth 1.0 to 2.0.
However, this generally increases size (connector), decreases reliability (connector) and increases power (interface/glue electronics).
So, with that provison, I'll stick my neck out...
modular is good but it has a drawback of size (big consern for a PDA), extra power draw(very big consern for a pda), external connections (the same thing will happen that happened to my wireless card. you keep in plugged in just once and you put the pda in your pocket and sit down..... snap goes the card )
erm, you agreed with my "however" there.
i agree on the use external memory idea, but ther is a problem. most NAND chip manufacturers have stopped or slowed making chips under 128MB in size. RAM IS GOOD that being said 256MB is about the most i think we can stuff into this as it supports 4 chips max (someone verify this) and the mobile DDR chips come in 512Mb (64MB) max that i have seen. hence we can only get 256MB max. socketed chips are bad for stuff like this since they are very large in comparison
yeah, sockets are not practical. many of the latest memory devices are BGA, which makes it much harder to retrofit memory expansion... hence why I thought an SODIMM socket might be better than on-board RAM. Also, there are sodimm sockets which raise the memory up high enough so there's room for chips on the PCB underneath, so you actually gain PCB real estate.
example:
http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.asp...PN=CT64M64S4W75 (http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.asp?imodule=CT64M64S4W75&WSMD=CT64M64S4W75&WSPN=CT64M64S4W75)
the processor supports 1 ata/pcmcia slot and 1 CF slot. so the you can have one CF slot and possible another CF slot and have on the bottom a expansion port for the full pcmcia port (pcmcia backpack?) that that disconnects the second CF and takes over (must see if this is possible)
does anyone remember Handspring - their add-on modules were virtually pcmcia modules with a slight tweak to allow them to charge a price premium - people found out how to take a pcmcia/cf adaptor and use non-proprietary memory cards etc.
4) mobile phones vary too much world-wide and suck too much current - rely on bluetooth link or a CF adaptor. as things move to 3G or 4G/Wimax/wibro, a gsm adaptor will become as useless as IRDA.
i slightly agree since the clamshell design is not very good for a phone and if you need mobile data connectivity...bluetooth to the resue... , but i have not had enough experience designing boards so da-blitz would be the final decision maker on this. note: if you did add a phone to this the cost would go up and it would make it a bluetooth only device most likely.
adding a phone also massively increases getting the device approved for sale in many countries - I think the flybook uses a Siemens GSM module rather than a custom GSM tranceiver made from discrete components - but this adds more bulk and battery load.
5) built-in sound: mono speaker, microphone for voip or dictation.
of couse speakers are a must (mp3 ) and a microphone would be also. they would take up very little space and exery PDA have them now days
speakers small enough for a PDA are worthless - a mono speaker is fine for telephony. Oh yeah, need to be able to remote-control the PDA from the headphones. This remote control circuit can have other uses too.
stereo headphones would be a must. microphone in is one of those nice but not a pass or fail feature. you could add an oscilloscope but is it really practical on a pda??????
microphone in IS imperative for VOIP headset - as you said, clamshell is not the right shape for holding up to your ear. Analogue input without DC blocking allows basic oscilloscope functions - sure, not high bandwidth, but even a megahertz is useful for students.
13) backup-battery - use a small supercapacitor
good idea using a supercap, or better yet use a 2032 battery or some other Li watch battery so you could "sleep" the pda and use it to keep ramother stuff powered while you change batteries.
a supercap is fine, trust me, and doesn't need replacing like a 2032.
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3) two CF card slots, or one CF + one PCMCIA.
NOTE! a PCMCIA interface doesn't have to be big - as long as you don't mind the card sticking out! make the slot *just* deep enough for a CF card with adaptor. These card slots can be used for wifi, gps, ethernet, GPRS or 3G card, high performance audio adaptor
this also opens up pcmcia sata adaptors and other interesting things! It also alleviated the need for a full backpack system?
IMHO, you should forget about CF or PCMCIA. Most interesting CF cards are no longer in production. E.g. there is no more Audiovox GSM/GPRS or compatible to buy (besides eBay). Even Prism-based 802.11b CF cards are getting rare (others raises driver issues). GPS cards are also harder to get.
Why? Because the standard PDA or Mobile phone has one or several of them integrated. So, it is no more interesting for this accessory industry.
Finally, it makes the device unneccesarily large - IMHO.
-- hns
My first home-built PDA approx. 1985: http://www.quantum-step.com/wiki.php?page=Z80-Photos (http://www.quantum-step.com/wiki.php?page=Z80-Photos)
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IMHO, you should forget about CF or PCMCIA. Most interesting CF cards are no longer in production. E.g. there is no more Audiovox GSM/GPRS or compatible to buy (besides eBay). Even Prism-based 802.11b CF cards are getting rare (others raises driver issues). GPS cards are also harder to get.
Why? Because the standard PDA or Mobile phone has one or several of them integrated. So, it is no more interesting for this accessory industry.
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There are still new CF things coming out - for example, Enfora only just produced a quad-band GSM/GPRS device (I didn't know audiovox dropped their gsm module). There are also CF gps units, although things are moving towards SDIO (which is useless for linux at the moment).
CF still leads the pack for flash capacity - 16GB at the moment in flash, 20GB in microdrive.
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Why do i bother sleeping this moves to fast (6 pages already!!!), its good to see more people commenting (just from a quick glance, i know have to read all af that, thanks alot, expect a post in 1/2 an hour thats 2 pages long )
check this out rom the kernel commits for 2.6.17: SD/MMC support for i.MX/MX1
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There are still new CF things coming out - for example, Enfora only just produced a quad-band GSM/GPRS device
Good to know a replacement for Audiovox!There are also CF gps units, although things are moving towards SDIO (which is useless for linux at the moment).
That is what i mean to take care of. CF is leading in memory capacity and microdrives but is falling behind in I/O. And more and more I/O is being integrated.
-- hns
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actually i did mention a virbrater when talking about quake and the trackball
me persanally i have home on its own dedicated partion and / on another, but there pin compatible so just buy as much as you want.
backlight i like the logitech g-15 (what i am using to type with right now under linux) where the letters are the bit that lights up, i dont care between hard or membrane but membrane will be easier as the hard keys sit on the membrane anyway, take your point about it bieng impracticle however it is less of a challenge than finding someonu to make the membrane (unless we use actuall switches)
i thoght SD was slow because of the driver as far as i know its in 4 bit mode, btw the xscales have built in mem stick support
I like the finger print reader and want to keep it as a tribute to Z4CK and digital force, but i dont like it how he had it on the outside but it did make sence because thats how you opened it.
client is a toss up but some people use it, i am happy to stick with a miniusb jack and 2 full sized jacks but it seems obvios to me that one will be on the expansion bourd for IO use and the other for internal parts (bluetooth perhaps) we could add a hub but thats more power and space so i am happy to ditch it as i use a real ethernet dongle anyway as bridging causes me problems (ip on the interface , not the bridge problems)
i tempted to put bluetooth on usb due to bluetooth 2.0s speed (3Mbit) and wifi an the mem bus as mem mapped SRAM (freescale has a chip that will do CF+ SDIO or SRAM), the 3G thing for me is a nice thing but the 3G stuff is really about data, CDMA and GSM arent going anywhere soon so a quadband is fine and can be hooked up to a seriel port but i am willing to put more effort into 3G than i am for Wifi (let someone else on the taem worry about finding a good WiFi chip Madwifi is good but they have a binary HAL (but the do support ARM as a HAL target))
Touchsreen will be somthing like SPI or analog resetive (which can be wired up to a sound chip), i know people want it so i wont leave it out
EMP wise i can do it but it will drain your bat and posible fry your Z, Requires fingerprint reader (truley i am not jocking) consider it a "saftey" feature to prtect you data, but i am a big fan of magnesium encased flash chips as it works better (EMP dosent really affect flash)
for the fingerprint it would be nice with the secure boot feature i mentioned as you can have the key in ROM and do 2 factor authentication (i truley dont belive we have real triple factor authentication because somithng you have and somthing you are are basically the same thing)
not sure were to put the camera or the Rez so ill leave that to someone else, i thoght it would be easire to chuck it on the bottem but its not good for VOIP (unless you rotate the screen) if its on board we can use higher res chips, but keep in mind the camera interface is 60Mhz max (must check how much data it transfers per clock) so if you want 30fps keep that in mind
headphone jack i thoght someone wanted 2? i am very happy to comply as if we use the 4 ring sockets we acn convert it into a full 5.1 setup with external cables or have multichannel input or stereo output and mono input and so on.
the external video would show up as a second independent frame buffer that can be sit to mirror OR use Xinemeria OR as 2 independent heads
I dont mind internal CF i just hate the thoght of external and internal, its one or the other for me and most likly mem only (it will have wifi bluetooth and gsm what else do you need to plug in
yeah it looks like high density low profile sockets (perhaps joined by ribbion cable as everyone dose this in PDAS due to it bieng paper thin, the trackball uses it as well), for the docking connector the laptops i have had in the past have all had high density low depth sockets that would work well, slap that on the side or the back and we should be fine (the side would mean a side loading docking station but it makes sense for backpacks as it means they wouldnt make it any deeper anly wider and taller (better on pockets for this monster)
the trick for the external screen is to get a serial one or use an 8 pin uC
the trackball i see as bieng seperate and on the oppiste corner to the direction pad (direction pad over the battery as the trackball consumos depth, your right this woould be the ultimte setup for quake 3 now that the source has been released, plug in 5.1 sound and video out plus a keyboard and mouse and youve got a kick arse gaming setup that fts in your pocket (someone pinch me)
at the very least i want rounded corners, extra screen if i have the budget for it (space time cash)
man i can see this thing going comercial just from one flash moive of this thing playing quake, then plugging into a monitor and more quake while being posted to slashdot, i would like to see that!!!! espesially if its 8 people on wifi playing quake in the same room, due to this i shall rate its sucsess on its ability to play quake and moives as this gives us a nice benchmark for multimedia
the auxillary display is low on my list and the finger print reader is trivial to add (its mainly a software thing) but if thats what you want then i will add it to my list of things that i will drop if i need space, in reality it uses SPI and a bit of board space, the reason i like the slider one is that its smaller, not for the extra security (as your fingerprints are all over the thing), i like it as it can be used te prevent network attacks as you phisacally have to be there so with pam you say require fingerprint and username unless user is logged on then only require fingerprint, gerat for sudo as then you can have a timeout of 2 seconds (my passwords are 20+ chars even on my Z)
the funny thing about this is its a laptop taken to the extreme in size like the Z an a larger scale, makes it very easy to chuck it in a laptop case and get 5x the battery life and more HD using the one design (or make the laptop a docking station)
i want LEDS as i am a blikenlights fan and use them for feedback alot, i was hoping 2 on the hinge that are 2 color and 2 or more) on the keyboard (i use the cal, notes whatever buttons as VT changing and an led above each one to tell me which VT i am on would be heaven)
im taking some time off in about 1-2 weeks so expect alot of pics and data sheets then, basically where posible its BGA and 4 layer boards with buried vias, if that means anything to you, not to mentian its a stacked design like the Z's but we have an extra pcb or 2 (c300 has 3 layers, keyboard, mobo, SD), the chips may be samall but these things can be hard to route
i can just imagine my Z acting as an ansewring machine when i m busy;)
so who wants to do what, i need someone on bluetooth chips, mem chips, flash chips, wifi chips, GSM (i might do that as i seem to want it the most), sockets, connectors, pcb anufacture places. and of course anything else you think of, we also need someone on case design (prefrebly with an intrest or backgorund in design espesially industrial or bulk manufacture design, i might know a cheap factorey or 2 in china but i would need high quality design and where to buy the parts from (ie injection material/aluminium) as they do tend to skimp if you leave it up to them, keyboard membrane is also a worry
need to get a wiki up, oh well there should be a site up next week
keyboard wise anyone object to dvorak and qwerty on the same design with qwerty in onu color and Dvorak in another?
as a base Ferret-Simpson seems to have a good idea of what should go in it and i think i will follow the eairler post where he explained ech section, for the moment thats what we are aiming for (post #69)
speculatrix is close but ferret-simpson got there first , no firewire (needs chip) and we think we might drop client as there are better ways to connect (a usb host to host cabel will suffice if you need usb at both ends plus it means driver less install as every lin machine i have plugged into a winbox asks or drivers
M1 is not worth the effort it screams incompatable, hdmi is in most new equipment and you can get dvi to hdmi and vga to hdmi converters and a hdmi to componont i belive so its fairly universal
as far as i can see this chip is very power efficent but we wont be able to tell till we have one sitteng in our hands, most devices can be turned off and the thing consumes about 15mW in deep sleep (apm -s)
math co-pro/ssl accelerator/dsp = fpga but this has simd in it as well so be happy as well as floating poit
printer/floppy drive/geiger counter/microwave oven (just checking if you read this far :-) = see ion cannon i do read every post
accelerometer= yes definetly (hooked to sound card), its about 2mm by 2mm
ethernet is a mabey the magnetics are huge and we are running out of space alond the outside of the pcb, but i would like to see it, or you can get a gigabit usb ethernet card and get 400Mbps on it
i verify that its a 256MB max however i am unsure if its 4 chip, will have to double check as it said banks, the chips have banks internally and several chips connected to a chip select is also commanly known as a bank, will download the freescale implementation and double chek against there refrence design (thank god they have one)
actually it supports 1 ATA and 1 CF/PCMCIA slot, but the PCMCIA slot can be switched to ATA to give you 2 ATA slots (thats how i interpret the data sheets high level over view, can some one verify this, you can make a secon slot take over and i will try this the tradeoff is that it tokes up a bit of room (1 transitor) as i just divert the chip select line BUT the first slot is still powered unless i add anothe transistor (good idea will do that)
bluetooth audio is a software thing, you can get chips that do it in hardware but they are larger so we dont need a chip that explicitly supports it
Heads up display is a primary motavation, it was this project or buy a heads up display for my Z and build a cf card with VGA out, you can see which one i chose (see tekgear.com, i like ther nomad but i was going to get the pda display they had)
the ethernet in CF is depricated as i dont think we will have a IO capable CF slot (it is connected to the mem bus for onec), i am a user/abuser of the usb ports and am trying to make everyone use them hahahhahahhah, seriosly try getting usb stuff rather than CF for this pda as then you can use it with your PC as well (DVB for example, run mythTV on your PDA, MPAG2 encoding/decoding acceleration included)
Super caps good but wouldnt you charge the batt in the PDA, it takes alot of space and remeber we wont be using ram for storage (unless you use tmpfs) so batt loss dosent matter (think cxx00 sereis or a laptop
But it sounds like you guys want to build a ultraportable laptop and not a PDA. If I can see some good drawings, I'd be much less concerned.::: next week trust me
audio is a big thing, i mant 6 input channel and 6 output over 2x 4 ring headphone jack with 3 of each ring switchable as an input or output, its most likley we weill need to sound chips on board but they are small to begin with or you can get a usb audio kit, i use a audigy 2 NX 24Bit @ 96Khz with optical out/in
size is limited by the size of my pockets, but consider i buy my pants to fit my electronics not my electronics to fit my pants
Bottery life is king and everything can be turned off independently, however nothing can stop someone from turning everything on (i can show you the door you must be the one to walk throgh it)
OZ is good however i do have some concerns about the quality of the packages and the consitency of the packing, but thats beacuse they dont have the number of people that package for edra or debian for example, that said it would be my choice unless pdaXrom wants to port to it, they seem to do a gerat job
OESF is surely the most exciting forum on the web for computing enthusiasts, you said it to bad we cant walk throgh a wormhole and all meat up easily as it seems everyone here is quite lively
integer wise i would expect these to be close but i cant say before hand, however its the the other stuff like openGL that make this chip better, i would expect its probelly worse than an xscale running from cache buh the advatage is that the bus an this thing is F****ing carzy, it can do mulptiple transactions at once and the DDR makes this a killer combination, at 100% load i belve this chip would be 30% faster than an Xscale, but keep in mind these are gousses bassed an what i know about cpu arcitecture, i will say with great acuracy that this should easily get 2x vide playback performance of an xscale due to the mem bus and CF being independent, the multiple transaction bus and the DDR 266 ram as well as the large amount of RAM
IR is CIR and it should charge off up to 12V if i have anything to say, as well as it wont matter what type of charger as long as its below 12v and fits in the socket (dont care about polarity)
sodimm soket is nice but laptop mem is 64bit not 32 bit as well as not being low power chips, i will look into as we can make dimms, this would mean you can plug in more ram without having to change anything (diffrent mem sizes require diffrent settings) however i think i might just say "256MB only, you want less you hack the boottloader youself" the only problem is i can fit PCB in the space that sodimm takes up
there is a small loop hole so we dont have to get them aproved, basically i dont sell them 2 you, you buy them from the manufacturueer as a prototype, thats why i release the design as GPL you send the board off they send it back and you buy he case seperatly, no FCC aprval required (or AUS or EU aproval as well, just cant remeber the names)
i see the point about a mobile phone bieng seperate but i hate acrying the 2 aroundand it allows us to do some nice things and means 1 battery as well, the remote control is done by putting DC on the headphone jack, this is then split with a capcitor and an inductor, the inductor only allows DC and the capacitor only AC, the inductor feeds into one input and the cap another meaning you can get sound and the buttons seperatly, else you can pull it all from bluetooth
a 1Mhz ossilascope isnt posible, try a seperate usb osiclascope (look up fsf software radio, it apeared on slashdot), mak sampling freq would be 24Khz at the moment so a sample rate of 48Khz, i micht be able to push that sampaling freq to 96Khz or 192Khz depending on the chip but you will have 6 channels so use quadreture decoding to improve that, dont forget there may be a FPGA and there will be an expansion port
i agree with dhns i woul however put a cf slot on the ATA pins for internal CF/Microdrive storage as there are 20GB microdrives coming out and i do like having a swapfile
bluetooth as GPS in my opinion, we need a wiki as some points are comming up again that have been resolved, i blame my long post... which leads me to:
LONGEST POST EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!
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well off to work in a few minutes will reply more once i get there.
i would just like to say that freescale usually has really good datasheets, but for some reason this one for the i.mx31 seems somewhat subpar. i am not sure if this is because it says preliminary and it is a work in progress still. in my opinion a processor like this should have a few hundred more pages to better go into detail on all the features.
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I second that but looking thregh the 2521 page refrence manual you find there is alot of info in it, some pages to nete, the contents and chapter 1
even if you dont understand electronics chapter 1 will give you an overview of how cool this chip is, 61 is a good place to start, lots of nice pictures, 43 chapters
[edit]
i would love to have multi core but a am not 100% if i can do it, not for the PDA but for the blades, i would only add it if i could garentee that i could fully switch it off
[\edit]
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hey, if this becomes a reality I'll totally sell my 3200 and buy one. All of my wants have already been mentioned but, although I know I don't post here nearlyt enough to hve a say, one thing I would reaaally want is a vga port so we could hook into full sized monitor. Maybe put this on the pcmcia backpack? ::glee:: I really hope this happens
--Fish
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now, I know people want video out, but can I say four words: vnc, X11 or rdesktop.
if the zaurus is not your only computing device, so if at work or home you connect it to a PC, the PC can become a thin client for it using vnc, x11 or rdesktop... provided it's fast enough to be responsive of course!
when using it as a portable, you're not likely to lug around a big display.. and if you did want one, you'd have a laptop instead!
for me, video out is a nice to have, but I have other ways of playing multimedia content when at home - and if the content is on the Z, well, I'd use Z as a NAS or usb mass storage rather than relying on video out.
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ok for a quick recap i may have missed something so.......... i may go back and edit this
processor: freescale i.mx31 532 MHZ max speed
mobile DDR: 133mhz (266 effective) 256MB
Nand flash: 256MB or 128MB depending on availibility and OS rom size(note to self check to see the larges zaurus rom size)
display: 640x480 LCD 3.7 or 4.0 inch with touchscreen built in
expansion slots: 2 SD slots regular size but possibly use trasnflash if we run into a space crunch. 1 external CF slot and possibly 1 more external or internal depending on space constraints
Keyboard: yes qwerty with dirrectional pad and small trackball(note to self get one to verify how well it works). also backlighting on the keyboard.
External display: possible for time display or caller id function if phone is built in.
wireless: bluetooth 2.0, 802.11G
camera: possible (most likely 640X480 above the lcd display for video voip use)
external display support: yes plz if at all possible. most likely useing hdmi/dvi if we can find the chips for it to make it work or vga
fingerprint reader: small sliding type fingerprint reader. not sure where it will be put on the pda yet, but it is small so it will fit somewhere.
led's: we would like a few 4+ scattered around for different things
cpld: built in for interconnecting processor with various onboard chips
accelerometer: 2 but preferably 3 axis for orientation detection
super cap: for backup while switching batteries and hotswapping of batteries
sound: built in microphone and speakers plus external connections
IR: irda trasciever
GSM phone: preferably quad band GSM module
vibrator: some people are requesting it. it is especially good if we have a phone built in. we can try to find a way to stuff it in
audio: most likely 2.0 or 2.1 sound out maybe up to 5.1 if chips/connections/cost are ok. at least single channel
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impressive, amazing, exciting. but really feasible?
stampsm: add battery capacity and battery hot-swap to the list, and get all my $$
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Ok ok ok. . 5.1 Audio? WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT?????
When you're at home, then plug in your 5.1 EXT usb card. But 5.1 on a PDA? The only available chips are laptop chips, with a bigger power drain. Just stick with 2/1 Sound/Mic at 48k.
The screen is not meant primarily for multimedia at home, it's for use in the work place. Every single teacher at my college, and at just about every other college or Uni in the UK, uses a Projector in lectures, which they hook up to the vidout port of their laptop. I don;t have a laptop. They're too big and clunky. I have a 66mhz Wristwatch, and a Zaurus. I don't have an XGA card for mine but one would be Ruddy useful!
3gg and 4g are NOT going to be replacing GSM any time soon. The networks are less well implemented, and run on top of the current GSM network. The PocketPenguin Zero (Remember, all real computers count from 0) is a 530mhz device. It's gonna last us a long time before it's completely obsolete, but it will become obsolete, and the GSM network will be going for a lot longer than that, as will 802.11g. There are still people who use floppy disks, and CD-RW's have been out since 1994.
ALSO another note on connectivity. a USB OTG port runs in either host OR client mode interchangeably, at 11mbps. So we'll have USB client support off of the CPU's OTG port anyway. The other point to note is that since we have only two USB 480 ports left, only one can be used internally - Otherwise we lose our external USB-HS, which we've all been moaning about wanting.
My vote is that the Bluetooth be a serial one, connected to the BTUART of the processor, and the wifi chip be on the internal USB. Nothing else needs it.
We can support 256MB of DDR-266, so there's no point in faffing around with it. Adding more is impossible, and taking it away is pointless. And if we have 256MB or 512MB of Flash storage internally, the OS can be stored on their, in whatever partitioning makes you happy. Saves worrying about losing an SD card slot for those that like having spare expansion, and for those that want to , they can put their OS on SD.
I'm also all for CF being mem only, we'll have internal phone, USB480, Bluetooth, wifi and display controller. There aren't enough new devices being released to warrant losing memory performance for IO. If you want a HUD, go to Icuiti.com and pick up the M920 which is not CF only. Then you can just plug the HDMI into the VGA port on it.
SOFTWARE bluetooth audio over the internal chip means we have access to the headset profile, including volume and "Answer" buttons. Given the modularity of linux configuration, I have no doubt that you can remap the 3 buttons (Vol+ Vol- Answer) to do whatever the heck else you want.
Supercap? Does it REALLY take that long to reboot after a change of battery? You're probably better off having a PSP external backup PSU if you use that much power.
Stamp, you forgot the vibe.
Also, 4" screen means that (Even if we don't use the design!!!!) a rectangular case would be looking at around 5.5" to 6" diagonally. My 5600 (POODLE LUV ) is 6".
I think we're onto a winner here.
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Anyone think this could be made Sticky?
They did it for ZPSX!
Ta, Ferret.
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As far as video out goes, I have always had the dream of using my Z for almost everything, since sharp upset us with the true lack of video out support, this dream cannot be fulfilled. I want to be able to carry my little mchine around and then come home "dock it" with a big monitor and use a almost full functioning computer. Now, you could say use an oqo... tht's an option but it is an almost pure windblows computer, not to mention it carries a far too heftyprice tag for this college student.
--Fish
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for wifi chips i was looking at the zd1211 chip. i just need to find a source for it now and a datasheet, but it has opensource drivers and seems to be quite compact and used in many iteams.
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well it seems that the MC13783 chip is used on the i/mx31 dev board for handling many features
" * Battery-charger interface for wall charging and Universal Serial Bus (USB) charging
* 10-bit ADC for battery monitoring and other readout functions
* Buck switchers for direct supply of the processor cores
* Boost switcher for backlight and USB On-The-Go (OGT) supply
* Regulators with internal and external pass devices
* Transmit amplifiers for two handset microphones and a headset microphone
* Receive amplifiers for earpiece, loudspeaker, headset and line out
* 13-bit voice codec with dual ADC channel and both narrow and wideband sampling
* 13-bit stereo recording from analog input source such as FM radio
* 16-bit stereo digital to analog converter (DAC) supporting multiple sample rates
* Dual synchronous serial interface (SSI) audio bus with network mode for connection to multiple devices
* Power control logic with processor interface and event detection
* Real-time clock (RTC) and crystal oscillator circuitry
* Dual serial peripheral interface (SPI) control bus with arbitration mechanism
* Multiple backlight drivers and LED control, including funlight support
* USB/RS-232 transceiver with USB carkit support
* Touch-screen interface
* 247 BGA 0.5 mm pitch (10 mm x 10 mm) to optimize the size of the system
* Compatibility with CEA-936-A carkit regulation
* Integrated funlights and audio modulation features
* Capability to support two processor applications with dual SPI"
it looks like something worth looking into
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Funny, you liked to the head gear i was talking about
hdmi can do VGA and DVI so its a universal solution, heck it can do vide out as well for connecting to a TV , i dought there is a consumer display it cant connect to, the reason i want it is i can then use it in a windows enviroment where the system is lockeddown, we only have to add 1 chip as the support is all in the cpu.
hot swap it is;)
the reason i say 5.1 is some people meitoned audio work, i did sugest usb but the sound chip is never just used for sound in a pda its used as an ADC to get battery life info, abient light acellerometer data and more not te mention the internal microphone and speakers are on thier own channels, on a pda they normally only connect 2 outputs and 1 input but that dosent mean thats all the chip is capable of, a chip with 6 inputs and 6 outputs wont be too hard to find and if need be 2 smaller chips will suffice, its what i aim for but we will see if we can do it
actually we have 1 full speed 1 high speed and a OTG that can do highspeed in client or host, i was going to hang the bluetooth off the highspeed for the 3mbps speed.
RAM is fixed at 256MB, i too belive that there is no point in less mem
that chip you mention sounds good as it does most of what we need, just a quick vote, anyone want a FM radio i have seen them in a transistor package so they can be quite small
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http://www.wolfson.co.uk/products/digital_.../codecs/WM8777/ (http://www.wolfson.co.uk/products/digital_audio/codecs/WM8777/)
i like thier chips and they are comanly regarded as some of the best, that is an example of a top end chip so keep that in mind take this as a request for comments
might want to note it has power managment in it for those who want great battery life
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well fm audio is not really needed alot. for those who use it there are CF adapters for it or even plain radios that are really sinple and the size of a pen or so. plus think about how much space it along with all the extra components take up. useing the size of a 100 pin tqfg package that the chip comes in to figure out the size of the evaluation board ( i did not see and info on size so i "figured" it out) it seems like it is about 6x8 inched in size. even if it was stripped of all unessesary stuff i can still see it taking up 5-6 sq inches. do we got enough room?
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Okay, you guys build this dream sweet machine, and I will purchase it!
Lareya
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Hey Mikey, I think they like it!
Not too fussed on a radio. But if you look at the specs, the Touchscreen and battery already have their own separate interfaces, I guess the fingerprint bar will be one of our SPI devices, and what, trackball and accelerometer on the iMx31 audio bus? Or will the trackball be serial, and on the SPI?
Also, built in LED support? That looks fun. How many can it handle? Tft, Keyboard, Bluetooth, Wifi, Trackball (Still say blue powerlight ^^), HDD indicator(OpenZaurus 2.6 style), and a 3 colour Power indicator? Or if you can get a full colour one, have Green, Amber, Red for power level, and Purple or orange for charging.
So, 6 channel chip, 2 outputs for internal speakers, One input for internal mic, that leaves 4 outputs externally, and probably another mic with a little software fiddling. 16/48? 24/96 would be NICE, but they're only used in desktops so could be dodgy on power drain.
Heh, one last note: The stylus: Anyone think they can make Laserpen styli?
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The chip i mentioned is 24Bit @ 192Khz, the other thing to note is that alot of audio codecs are about that size, i want one that requires few external components so we will see, open to sugestions if others find chips, and no FM kay thats it for today from me
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A minimal 'backup' OS which is always available or a hard-wired copy from [insert media type here] would be useful so the device isn't brickable.
Otherwise - nice device. I'd certainly give it some thought (wrt buying one!).
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I lied and read some documentation instead of sleeping:
Backup OS has been discussed, it is a kexec'ing kernel that bootloads the next stage for you (using a lin kernel as grub or lilo) you will hopefully be able to set it up to load only kernels that are signed with your private key (have your public key in flash), im doing this way because we can, the bottloader / will be Read only (enforced in hardware so you cannot stuff it up) and include as a minimum busybox, fsck for several FS gpg (for signed kernels) and a SSH server, that should be enough to keep you out of trouble
heres the low down on the sound chip:
Standby current 2mA
full power down 890uA
everything on (full 5.1, mic inputs and SPDIF) 218mA
all DACs 71mA (normal usage would be 1 of the 4 DACS so 40mA)
has bass and treble control, 24bit @ 192Khz, can do 7.1 but i plan to aim lower, supports SPDIF, built in volume control and mute (no clicks) and can be connected to various busses, it also can act as a analog audio switching matrix to route audio from other chips to the outputs, (ie sound from phone), the iMX3 can do this for digital as well
this is overkill and i will probelly use a smaller chip when i run out of board space (hahha) but i am checking the amount of PCB we will need' keep in mind we will have chips on the top and bottom if i can get it done so the board density is going to be huge
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hdmi can do VGA and DVI so its a universal solution, heck it can do vide out as well for connecting to a
I might be wrong (has been known :-) but although DVI can carry both digital and analogue signals in the same connector, it doesn't have to - it was a compromise; if there's only digital, you'd need a D/A convertor.
I think HDMI is similar; I think the way forward is for digital flat panel interfaces, so analogue VGA is 2nd choice.
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well fm audio is not really needed alot. for those who use it there are CF adapters for it or even plain radios that are really sinple and the size of a pen or so. plus think about how much space it along with all the extra components take up. useing the size of a 100 pin tqfg package that the chip comes in to figure out the size of the evaluation board ( i did not see and info on size so i "figured" it out) it seems like it is about 6x8 inched in size. even if it was stripped of all unessesary stuff i can still see it taking up 5-6 sq inches. do we got enough room?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132112\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
FM radio is a dying standard in UK/Europe, where DAB and DRM (digital radio mondiale) are taking over, and pocket radios are very cheap, so I think this might be a distraction... also digital hash from the zaurus would probably make it quite hard to get a clean signal!
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btw, just saw this link ... wonder if its any useful ...
SLD PXA PCBoard - Small Linux Device
http://www.hw-server.com/hw_products/sld_hws.html (http://www.hw-server.com/hw_products/sld_hws.html)
Let me know if its already in the thread and I'll delete it.
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btw, just saw this link ... wonder if its any useful ...
SLD PXA PCBoard - Small Linux Device
http://www.hw-server.com/hw_products/sld_hws.html (http://www.hw-server.com/hw_products/sld_hws.html)
Let me know if its already in the thread and I'll delete it.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132188\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
quite an interesting board, I think the PXA255 is now officially obsolete (and with Intel trying to sell their Xscale division) parts will become harder to find... a PXA270 or 275 is now the baseline, but in this thread better alternatives have been found more suited to the high peripheral integration of a PDA.
well done for finding it, it can give us inspiration... and also suggests that our motherboard could be commercialised and sold with support and fund future developments.
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I found this and posted it in a different thread...
http://www.dspdesign.com/products/index_html?category_id=55 (http://www.dspdesign.com/products/index_html?category_id=55)
don't know how much it costs - they didn't answer my email!
the other aurora board has more to offer but is probably too big:
http://www.dspdesign.com/products/product_...?product_id=133 (http://www.dspdesign.com/products/product_detail?product_id=133)
yes, they have a linux sdk for them.
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impressive, amazing, exciting. but really feasible?
Everything is feasible - its just a matter uof how much money you want or can afford to spend (compared to xyz)...
-- hns
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Heh, one last note: The stylus: Anyone think they can make Laserpen styli?
If you mean a laser pen stylus that will fit into the existing pda silos then I don't think it's possible as there are no batteries that small (not sure how small the laser mechanism can be). If you mean something like the picture attached then these are pretty cheap, less than 2USD in bulk. This particular model is 15cm long, has a laser, an led torch, pen and stylus.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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heh, Lithium-Ion cell sheets are 23 microns thick, and appear to work like a parallel plate capacitor (This morning, discovery channel) No-one think we can't build a 2 inch long spiral LION cell? Doesn't have to be a HUGE power to power a laserpen. XP
It was a JOKE, anyway.
Anybody who dislikes cats:
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=2...08&mode=classic (http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20011108&mode=classic)
Hey, 7.1 chip would be good, It would give 5.1 as well as internal stereo. Not to mention 24/192 is insane!
One idea would be to have either a 2.5mm nokia-type output, or (If room fits) a pair of 3.5's for Stereo and Mic, and have a small connector to an external hot-pluggable breakout box for the other speakers? Would make it possible to use all channels with standard equipment while taking a minimum of board and case real estate. The SP/DIF could be on the box too. (I'm an MAUDIO Delta 66 user) Just a thought. But remember, we'll need two separate outputs for internal speakers to do it properly, otherwise we'll need to disconnect the headset to get speaker-use on phone or music. Which is technically unsatisfying as a solution.
Also, I was thinking about it, and a system like this, is going to have alot of sound interfaces. External 5.1, Internal phone, internal speakers, internal mic, Bluetooth headset. . . Hell to manage that number of interfaces. And since we're probably going to be using GPE and pdaXrom, why not port the Jack server and QjackCTL? It handles high sample rates, is pretty interconnectible, and QJCTL has the cool "Connections" window to link Inputs to Outputs.
What would the system drain from it be like? I'm guessing not too big, compared to say KDE services.
As soon as sound is working on Poodle2.6, I'll betatest it on OZ/GPE! (Obviously that being if someone wants to port it. I can;t code to save my life.)
Ferret.
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I have always wanted to try Jack but never really understood what its for and why i should use in over an alsa.conf file in my home dir
the chip can do 5.1 out with the extra outputs as a seperate interface (eg speakers) however this chip only has 2 ADC's that can be sourced from 8 diffrent locations external to the chip.
this chip has limitations that need to be addressed if we use it but i cant get an acurete picture of the sound chip until i know whta other parts we will be using, still need a bluetooth chip, wifi, gsm, hdmi transmitter.... if you want to help start looking for those parts as i can only do about 1 part per 2 days plus my searches turn up the same thing again and again whereas some people have found things i hvent seen yet
spdif is supported by the chip but its inclusion will depend on how much space we have aroud the side of the case, if there is none i will try and put it on the docking station
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One idea would be to have either a 2.5mm nokia-type output, or (If room fits) a pair of 3.5's for Stereo and Mic, and have a small connector to an external hot-pluggable breakout box for the other speakers?
Sorry to repeat myself, but I think one of those 3.5mm stereo jacks which is ALSO an optical s/dif connector would be better. have two, one for headphone and digital out, one for line input/digital in.
A third connector could be (stereo?) microphone input with remote control functions like the Nokia four-ring-tube headsets?
plugging in the headphones could mechanically disable the onboard speaker, or better, the mixer to speaker driver can be turned off by software.
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this chip has limitations that need to be addressed if we use it but i cant get an acurete picture of the sound chip until i know whta other parts we will be using, still need a bluetooth chip, wifi, gsm, hdmi transmitter.... if you want to help start looking for those parts as i can only do about 1 part per 2 days plus my searches turn up the same thing again and again whereas some people have found things i hvent seen yet
there are various tiny bluetooth modules; here's a Mitsumi WML-C09 against a millimetre scale ruler:
http://www.zaurus.org.uk/images/wml-c09-measured.jpg (http://www.zaurus.org.uk/images/wml-c09-measured.jpg)
the VITAL thing is to ensure the product is fairly new otherwise it could be discontinued; this is particularly significant since [a] lead-free regulations have caused a lot of older modules to be dropped change from bluetooth 1.0->1.1->1.2->2.0?? means older ones are being dropped. At least with a module there's a good chance of being able to find a pin-compatible one.
Here's the prism2/3 usb module from the 6000:
http://www.zaurus.org.uk/images/6000_wifi_lifted.m.jpg (http://www.zaurus.org.uk/images/6000_wifi_lifted.m.jpg)
(in this next pic it's shown in the screen mount cutout)
http://www.zaurus.org.uk/images/6000_under_screen.m.jpg (http://www.zaurus.org.uk/images/6000_under_screen.m.jpg)
Hope this helps,
Paul
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Actually, if given a choice, I would go for a PXA255 or maybe 270 and a ATI accelerator video chip. If the drivers can be setup properly, the acceleration can overshadow a faster cpu in performance.
And in any case, performance in most scenarios that we use our Zaurus for requires processing of multimedia. I really don't hear much folks doing intensive mathematics on their Z ...
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Actually, if given a choice, I would go for a PXA255 or maybe 270 and a ATI accelerator video chip. If the drivers can be setup properly, the acceleration can overshadow a faster cpu in performance.
And in any case, performance in most scenarios that we use our Zaurus for requires processing of multimedia. I really don't hear much folks doing intensive mathematics on their Z ...
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132358\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Both multimedia and math use floatingpoints a lot, so the i.mx31 would kick xscale ass in that department with its vfp unit (as would an omap3)
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I am happy to do an xscale board but not at $120 per cpu, plus i prefer the intel 2700G as its a much more capable chip and easier to interface to as well as bieng well documented with publicly avalible infomation
but i have a feeling that this chip is in a class in terms of performance, the inbuilt vide (dual head), Open GL support (not the cut/enhanced down ES), MPEG4 encoding and decoding acceleration with post and pre filtering (such as deringing which is very cpu intensive) and floating point all coupled with a high performance bus (the xscales performance is rapidly reduced on IO and mem tasks) and ddr 266
so basically this 1 chip multimedia wise should blow the 2 chip soulution out of the water in terms of cost and performance, BUT i dont have any numbers to support that, i am going on the technical details i am reading in the referenc manual of both, beta player benchmarks, technical analisys of the xscales performance for difrent tasks and gut feeling.
i dont want to sound stuck up but those are what ihave bassed my desicion on, the price and avalibility being huge points.
speculatrix: for the audio stuff it has been discussed already and we came to the same conclusion to use a breakout box, i might be able to route spdif out oh one of the headphone jacks but only if i can place the spidf in a high impedence state (effctivly turning it off), were you asking for spdif in or out or both or both at the same time because if we have 2 headphone jacks we could have one for in and the other for out
both jacks will be 4 ring and will be left, right, microphone input/3rd sound output, gnd as there is only 2 adc's on the chip, i might change it to allow you to have it setup up as 3 outputs or 2 outputs and 1 input where the input can be taken from any ring bar gnd
those pics are nice but the way i look at it that would be a medium density desin (the mother board that is), i mention that because there are alot of people who dont think we have alot of space, if you have seen a HTC phone design then you will knom the density i am talking about
back to the main topic, bluetooth i think would be best on the full speed usb port as that port is effectivly useless in my mind (not enough speed for 802.11g) so connection of that is easy, wifi i havent decided how to connect it, US would be ince but some people want 2 usb ports on the back, mast of the chips are usb or pci so it looks like 1 usb port (use a hub) but i need examples of chips with linux drivers to make an informed descision, it seems the Z**** (cant remeber exactly ) is supported as albeter is using one so mabey thats the chip to use
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Both multimedia and math use floatingpoints a lot, so the i.mx31 would kick xscale ass in that department with its vfp unit (as would an omap3)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I think this might be one reason why Skype didn't come to the Z - echo cancellation on telephony needs enough power to do DSP-like things. I tried using my 6000 with kphone/pi and without a headset it *really* sucked.
Using the Z as a AVO meter and 'scope would also benefit from maths crunching, whether to do true RMS readings or FFT. low-power math copro would also reduce power consumption for mp3, mpeg2 and mpeg4 movies.
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I am happy to do an xscale board but not at $120 per cpu, plus i prefer the intel 2700G as its a much more capable chip and easier to interface to as well as bieng well documented with publicly avalible infomation
but i have a feeling that this chip is in a class in terms of performance, the inbuilt vide (dual head), Open GL support (not the cut/enhanced down ES), MPEG4 encoding and decoding acceleration with post and pre filtering (such as deringing which is very cpu intensive) and floating point all coupled with a high performance bus (the xscales performance is rapidly reduced on IO and mem tasks) and ddr 266
so basically this 1 chip multimedia wise should blow the 2 chip soulution out of the water in terms of cost and performance, BUT i dont have any numbers to support that, i am going on the technical details i am reading in the referenc manual of both, beta player benchmarks, technical analisys of the xscales performance for difrent tasks and gut feeling.
i dont want to sound stuck up but those are what ihave bassed my desicion on, the price and avalibility being huge points.
speculatrix: for the audio stuff it has been discussed already and we came to the same conclusion to use a breakout box, i might be able to route spdif out oh one of the headphone jacks but only if i can place the spidf in a high impedence state (effctivly turning it off), were you asking for spdif in or out or both or both at the same time because if we have 2 headphone jacks we could have one for in and the other for out
both jacks will be 4 ring and will be left, right, microphone input/3rd sound output, gnd as there is only 2 adc's on the chip, i might change it to allow you to have it setup up as 3 outputs or 2 outputs and 1 input where the input can be taken from any ring bar gnd
those pics are nice but the way i look at it that would be a medium density desin (the mother board that is), i mention that because there are alot of people who dont think we have alot of space, if you have seen a HTC phone design then you will knom the density i am talking about
back to the main topic, bluetooth i think would be best on the full speed usb port as that port is effectivly useless in my mind (not enough speed for 802.11g) so connection of that is easy, wifi i havent decided how to connect it, US would be ince but some people want 2 usb ports on the back, mast of the chips are usb or pci so it looks like 1 usb port (use a hub) but i need examples of chips with linux drivers to make an informed descision, it seems the Z**** (cant remeber exactly ) is supported as albeter is using one so mabey thats the chip to use
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
here is a quick chek of this for some who dont have the time to look this up
pxa270 processor $60
2700g video chip not sure but i would say since it is intel about $20-30
i.mx31 $20 including the video chip built in, wich looks as powerful or more powerful that the 2700g plus built in floating point for even more increase in preformance.
opengl (goal to run quake 2 at 640x480)
Mpeg decoding: Ever try running even low res mpeg video on a 5600? with mpeg decoding and floating point should be able to run dvd quality video at 640x480 resolution.
the wireless chip you were looking for was the zd1211. it has open source drivers and is used in alot of products. it supports serial, usb or direct memory bus interface.
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It seems Spark Fun has some decent tri-band and qaud band cellular packages, though you need a separate SIM card slot and antenea for the ones I looked at:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=66_68 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=66_68)
BTW, how do you deal with getting all the different components to the place that assembles the board?
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they buy the parts on your behalf os if they have others buynig the parts they order in bulk
i still have to check if they can get the parts so thats why i am trying to finalise a list of chips so i con send it off to check avalibilty. the other soulution is design it and then sell off the design under a diffrent licsenee to a manufacturer or OEM with the provision that hardware be made avalible to us at slightly above cost and so we dont cut into thier profits the list of people to buy at the reduced price would be anyone on this board who signed up before x where x is the release date of the product or a better scheme is if you own a Z,
but thats far far in the future at the moment i want to finalise the chipsets we are using
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What about using http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2654180137.html (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2654180137.html) as the starting point?
-- hns
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are you going to build something like this:
[img]http://internettrash.com/users/pcgc1/vaio.gif\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
...Sony Vaio C1 series...
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Those guys dont have an actual product and there are many other boards that are better suited te bo a pda that have been mentioned elier, in fact the other arm board linked on the linux devices frount page would be more aproprite
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are you going to build something like this:
[img]http://internettrash.com/users/pcgc1/vaio.gif\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
...Sony Vaio C1 series...
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I must admit, the C1 is quite a nice machine, but fetch quite a price premium for their age and performance (equivalent to P2/400MHz, the later Crusoe models simply had lower battery life). Shame Sony didn't carry on developing that range. The Sharp Muramasa Mebius (dropped a while ago), and the Flybook are still the smallest ultraportables by quite some margin.
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We have 3 USB ports, apparently ALL high speed.
One of them supposedly supports OTG. I say we make that our External port, since it will run in Client mode or Host mode, depending on what's connected, like the 3100.
Wireless has to be USB, because we're leaving the Memory Bus for our memory. (256MB DDR266, remember?)
I still say we sacrifice some speed and put the Bluetooth chip on SPI serial, because 115kb is fine for a bluetooth headset, and Mobile Phones are no faster than that. (On that note, neither are most PDA's) - Which would mean we could have a second USB external port. Either that or we put the Bluetooth chip on a 480MbPS port, which seems like kind of a waste to me. . .
Be careful with these Audio sockets, too. Remember we still have to be able to plug in a Headphone jack into one, and a Microphone jack into the other when all's done and dusted: The reason I mentioned a breakout box was to avoid any worries about ridiculously overcomplicated socket assemblies.
Hmmm. . . Anyone want to work on a Linux-Powered Freescale Dragonball wristwatch as a companion to this? XP
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http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...products_id=757 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=757)
Hmm. . They've (In the last few days) Added this module. . . The sim card slots into it, it is serially interfaced, and comes with a 640x480 camera. Unfortunately, it appears to be designed for use as part of "Solder together with lots of electrical insulation tape" type projects, since the audio on it comes out of a 2.5mm socket, instead of through a bus connection. Damn.
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USB page 67 MCIMX31RM.pdf (ie the rfrence manual)
USB Host 2 has the following capabilities and features:
• Is compliant with USB 2.0 specification for operation at full speed (12 Mbit/s) and low speed
(1.5 Mbit/s)
its anoying and thats why i say use it for bluetooth, they say to use it for a cellular modem and if i can find one that needs usb (ie no serial) i will use it for that, if it has serial then i will only use it if it has 3g and therefore needs the speed
SPI can do ALOT more than 115kbps, i have seen it up to 25Mhz, in fact SD cards use it at 25Mhz (4 bit mode is basically the same exept 4 bit transfers and some other enhancments), spi is a common way to interface SD to 8bit micros, besides these chips normally have a 912kbps serial port for bluetooth that has all the signal lines, 115kbps wouldnt be too godd for a2dp (CD audio) which is what i use
that modem is looking very atractive as i am not really game to put much effert into writing a gsm/3g stack, if i can buy one i would rather do that, latter down the track mabey someone can write one but i would like the hardware to work out of the box and not 3 months latter
audio comming out that way is normal, the sound very raley comes out the serial port in digital format (i could be wrong, think "voice modem") as these things act like modems, in fact if you put a buffer chip between it and the serial port (max232 anyone) then your computer would not know it was a mobile unless you told it,, when you did you would be able to spam^H^H^H^Hsend sms
breakout box would be to convert the 2x4 ring sockets to 3x3 ring for 5.1 or SPDIF, at the moment if you pluged a microphone into one and a headset into the other it should automatically detect the jack settings
Hmmm. . . Anyone want to work on a Linux-Powered Freescale Dragonball wristwatch as a companion to this? XP
all i can say is 8 bit micro with HID profile or remote control interface profile and a graphical driver over the serial port profile on it would be tha way to do it see other topic, they have small chips nowdays
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yeah i finally got quotes working, note the spelling
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It seems Spark Fun has some decent tri-band and qaud band cellular packages, though you need a separate SIM card slot and antenea for the ones I looked at:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=66_68 (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=66_68)
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=132470\")
The GM862 Cellular Quad Band Module with Python Interpreter at [a href=\"http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=279#]http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_i...roducts_id=279#[/url] says...
"You will need to provide a SIM card. Pull the SIM card from your phone, insert it into the module, and viola, you are making calls under your cellular account. Works with all providers currently supporting SIM cards (AT&T, T-Mobile, and Cingular)."
(emphasis mine) reads like you don't need a seperate SIM card slot... not bad for about £65! It is programmable from something 'simple' like python and has camera capability (not, I'll admit, that that interests me particularly).
PS, sorry about the almost duplicate information - I really should read to the end for the forum before replying!
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Would http://www.sigmatel.com/products/portable/audio/stmp3600.asp (http://www.sigmatel.com/products/portable/audio/stmp3600.asp) be of any interest for the audio?
"The STMP3600 integrates a wide range of I/O peripherals. It can efficiently interface to nearly any type of flash memory, ATA drive, serial bus, or smart LCD. Moreover, it is ready for advanced connectivity applications such as Bluetooth and WiFi via its integrated high speed application UART and SDIO controller. This includes a high-resolution audio codec with headphone and speaker amplifiers, 8-channel low resolution ADC, high-current battery charger, linear regulators for 5-volt operation, high-speed USB 2.0 OTG with embedded PHY, and various system monitoring and infrastructure systems. An ARM926EJ-S CPU with dual caches, embedded SRAM, and an integrated memory management unit serves as the central processor of the STMP3600 and provides the processing power needed to support advanced features such as audio cross-fading and post processing, MP3 and Windows Media Audio (WMA) encoding, and still and motion video decoding."
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the processor we were looking at would litterally blow that one out of the water.
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I just came across this post and am really amazed, can't wait til I can buy one! I've long thought about building a custom PDA and many of the ideas discussed in this post (like USB host, external monitor support, GSM/GPRS etc).
There are a couple of things that have sprung into my mind reading this post:
1. uboot (http://sourceforge.net/projects/u-boot) might make a good bootloader. Its smaller than having an entire linux kernel and can read images from an mmc card or over serial using kermit. Its currently used by the gumstix. Although one thing they do which I don't like is to place it in flash meaning you can remove it and brick your device (unless you use JTAG).
2. If this device is a success a lightweight version might be nice. I still often use my Psion 5MX despite having a Zaurus 5500 because it runs for 30 hours on 2 AA batteries and is perfectly adequate for many tasks. Perhaps a device of the same size/shape, same keyboard, running the same software but only has a monochrome screen, 100mhz CPU, 64mb of RAM, SD/CF and bluetooth. For tasks like checking email, reading ebooks, using IMs, word processing, spreadsheets, PIM and basic web browsing and possibly even coding it would be ideal. Hopefully it would also be a lot cheaper, on the subject of cost does anyone know what this thing is likely to cost?
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it happens (reposting info) i try and point it out but i need to get a wiki running, should be up in a week
im not sure if linux is able to boot from the bare hardware, i assume it needs some sort of setup to get the ram going and such but i could be wrong (somtimes it takes me awhile te relise i am reading mailing lists from 3 yoers ago about things that have been solved, google gives too much info sometimes)
that cpu you mention is a fether weight for phones, i think the philosify of phones replacing pdas and such is a bad idea, it shold be pdas with phones replacing the phone. with bluetooth you dont have to worry about taking the pda out of your pocket, just leave it in your bag, i belive that a better interface to comunicate should not to change the form factor of a phone or pda but to allow them to evelve there design to meet the required functionality (size and power) and suplement thase with objects that are more convienent (ie bluetooth headphones, watch, headset). you dont see a home PC built into a keyboard you buy them sepretly because if they were together they cannot perform to thier fullest (laptops bieng a special case where form follows function instead of functions follows form[/rant]
uboot is good and i will lookinto that, its ideas and infomation like that that i need and helps the most keep them ideas rolling in
cost is as much as a c3000 or current equivelent, thats what i plan on, what we end up with might be diffrent, if you want to save power then the best way would be to lower the cpu, i can see about making the mem banks independently powerable down but i dont belive there would be much point, i have stated that i dont want to fragment the design and will have 2 models initally with an expansion assembly that would turn it into a laptop (eg development blade and the PDA) the reason bieng is that it gets hard to support many platforms each with diffrent reveisons and then you get questions about incompatability and such
i dont want headaches, you can have a 64MB version if you want and i will show you how to do it but i wont suppert you for problems that are specific to your design IF i am too busy, in the end i will probelly help out anyway i just wont garentee it
i think the best way to get this manufactured is as a freescale dev board as chip some manufacterers tend to go low profit on thier dev board and make more maney selling chips, if we use thier chipsets then its more likely they will use the design
by the way i need ideas fr benchmarking the thing, what do you want to see it do, long battery life (eg lenght of time playing moives/mp3's), if so how long, quake playback at acceptable speeds and over wireless is one but i am intrested in what you want it to do in terms of hardware
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im not sure if linux is able to boot from the bare hardware, i assume it needs some sort of setup to get the ram going and such but i could be wrong (somtimes it takes me awhile te relise i am reading mailing lists from 3 yoers ago about things that have been solved, google gives too much info sometimes)
You need something to load Linux kernel (if it has all needed modules compiled) or an initial RAM disk into the RAM and jump to location it was loaded and start executing. Depending on how the iMX31 is setup, you might be able to put an uncompressed image in ROM, and it'll load automatically.
cost is as much as a c3000 or current equivelent, thats what i plan on, what we end up with might be diffrent,
Just to clarify, are we talking about around the cost of a C3x00 for the entire handheld, or just the boards? I'm thinking you mean the boards, but it'd be good to be positive.
by the way i need ideas fr benchmarking the thing, what do you want to see it do, long battery life (eg lenght of time playing moives/mp3's), if so how long, quake playback at acceptable speeds and over wireless is one but i am intrested in what you want it to do in terms of hardware
For movie playback, at least 3 hours of continuos video playback, irregardless of codec (below MPEG 4 anyway). MPEG 4 can likely be played with very little involvement of the processor, so 3 to 5(what the PXA270 at 200MHz and 2700G in the Axim X50 can do) hours in it would be trivial for that, but I'm worried about the other codecs that are only partially accelerated.
30FPS Quake 3 at 640x480 with the processor at full speed(medium settings or higher). At least a couple of hours for that.
At least a day of off-and-on use, viewing PDFs, surfing the internet, video watching, etc. Probably at least 5 hours of continuous use web surfing with one radio on, and medium backlight to achieve that.
Basically, the longer the better, I believe some in this thread have stated two or more days non-continuous use. Finding the right size battery will be a careful juggling act. I'd love all week use, but I'm not willing to carry around a 6"x4"x3/4" 5200MAh Li-Ion battery to do it.
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that modem is looking very atractive as i am not really game to put much effert into writing a gsm/3g stack, if i can buy one i would rather do that, latter down the track mabey someone can write one but i would like the hardware to work out of the box and not 3 months latter
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132673\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
if you feel up to writing a 3G stack, then you'e worth millions - Motorola bought TTPCOM here in England and the companies main intellectual property was GSM, GPRS, EDGE and 3G protocol stacks!
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that modem is looking very atractive as i am not really game to put much effert into writing a gsm/3g stack, if i can buy one i would rather do that, latter down the track mabey someone can write one but i would like the hardware to work out of the box and not 3 months latter
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132673\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
if you feel up to writing a 3G stack, then you'e worth millions - Motorola bought TTPCOM here in England and the companies main intellectual property was GSM, GPRS, EDGE and 3G protocol stacks!
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132751\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
any programmer can write anything provided they have enough time and their head does not pop from all the thinking that can be involved.
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Head poping s what would prevent me form doing it
cost is not set in stone, i ment for the boaurds but am trying to facter the case into that. just need to get a parts list first
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that modem is looking very atractive as i am not really game to put much effert into writing a gsm/3g stack, if i can buy one i would rather do that, latter down the track mabey someone can write one but i would like the hardware to work out of the box and not 3 months latter
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132673\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
if you feel up to writing a 3G stack, then you'e worth millions - Motorola bought TTPCOM here in England and the companies main intellectual property was GSM, GPRS, EDGE and 3G protocol stacks!
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132751\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
any programmer can write anything provided they have enough time and their head does not pop from all the thinking that can be involved.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132754\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
yeap ... as a result, there are those who
1. Can code anything without their head popping
2. Cannot code everything without their head popping
3. Dare not code everything 'cos of fear that their head popping ...
The other thing is time-to-market. Any developer can write anything. But if he can only deliver it *after* everyone else has done so, then its more of a personal exercise in coding than being actually useful.
Anyway, a few things on my todo list ...
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Et hem.
YOUR HEAD ASPLODE!
Sorry. . . Sorry. . .
On the note of that module: Wouldn't it be cheaper just to use an SMD chipset? That module gives us no 3g, after all. And the space wasted by the jack socket and empty air inside is probably quite big.
When you factor in designing the rest of the mobo, the addition of an onboard phone/modem chipset isn't a big job.
Also, if you remember thee ol' Freescale i300 Mobile processor we looked at, how much of a challenge would a dual-CPU setup be? - The dualchip system would take care of the second monitor output (For your little miniscreen) aswell as a 3g and phone connection.
In fact. Forget that.
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/p...4Fs568199181427 (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=RFX250-20&nodeId=01J4Fs568199181427)
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/p...4Fs568199180409 (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=RFX300-20&nodeId=01J4Fs568199180409)
Ordered a couple of sample chips to play with, iMX31L and some Audio processors.
Annoyingly the Dragonball (Wristwatch) and RFX300-20 weren't sample'able.
Should be interesting, no?
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this is a more recent posting on linuxdevices -
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8603019360.html (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8603019360.html)
it looks like quite an interesting basis for our PocketPenguin, and "prices starting at $52" sounds good!
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this is a more recent posting on linuxdevices -
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8603019360.html (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8603019360.html)
it looks like quite an interesting basis for our PocketPenguin, and "prices starting at $52" sounds good!
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=132954\")
here is the web site for them
[a href=\"http://www.compulab.co.il/index.htm]http://www.compulab.co.il/index.htm[/url]
they do state astarting price of $52, but that is 1k quantity and the base design. if you want to add more features like memory, connectors, ect it is more
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I am realy wont join your group, I looked for linux pda around 3 years I already try sharp 5500, compaq 3800, psion 5x, jornada 720, but they are not pefect: no keyboard or no wi-fi
I am looking for somthing like this.
[img]http://i1.ebayimg.com/01/i/07/67/24/09_1.JPG\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
New hardware inside old case it is cool
I need
cpu 400-520 mhz
ram 128-256 mb
flash 128-256 mb
screen 640x240 or vga
wi-fi
cf (one or two)
keyboard
long battery life.
You can count on me if you ordering parts or board.
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http://www.compulab.co.il/index.htm (http://www.compulab.co.il/index.htm)
they do state astarting price of $52, but that is 1k quantity and the base design. if you want to add more features like memory, connectors, ect it is more
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132957\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
A rough estimate for a useful design (Graphics, RTC, memory, WLAN) comes to 100$. For quantity 10 they charge the factor 2. So, it is $200 + LCD + Touch + Battery + Housing. So you come close to a C1000
-- hns
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I swear that compulab link is going to follow me to my grave, it must get mentioned every second day
thats the first time i have seen a pic of the psion but i have read up on them and would love to get my hands on one
watch out on those chips you ordered the L varient has no hardware video acceleration, but if you can whip up a board i may get a couple as well, i am a hardware guy not a kernel hacker so i wouldnt get the kernel running ( i have a feeling it already works) but it would be a nice platform for some asm work
for the RF stuff: http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/p...=01J4Fsm6cyDbFf (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MXC300-30&nodeId=01J4Fsm6cyDbFf)
note that this is a "platform" as is the other i300 link, they are NOT an all in one chipset they are in fact a gruop of chipsets, thats why i mention it as it tells you which chips you need to imlement a 3G solution
if any of you guys want to talk in realtime feel free to add me to your MSN acounts or email me if your on a diffrent protocal and i will sign up, my login name is "jaycoles (a) yahoo.com and i go by the handel "DaBlitz Heavy Industries"
just a note, if it appears on linuxdevices i have probelly already seen it (i check it daily)
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Back to our point in case again.
It's an intel chip.
The whole point in choosing the moto chip is to get away from the ruddy PXA270!
The iMX300 has a built in 3D accelerator, as well as codecs and a huge number of I/O interfaces. At about $19.60, it's roughly 1/3 the price of a PXA250 with 2700G. it has Floating point math, and is generally a better option. Not to mention Freescale are very supportive of Open Source, and have ported the linux kernel to this device already. It has a better memory system, as well as several other key bonuses that are very good for the PocketPenguin.
The MXC300 is ANOTHER applications processor based system, for use on it's own in mobile phones.
My link's better! We need to look at chipsets built to work around a central processor, because all we're finding is a bunch of processors made for use in the next budget Motorola eXXXX
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I think with the news that intel sold thier PXA line we wont have to repeat that too much more , truley i belive that this is a better and faster chip for what we want to do and so for no one has really come up with a good reason why we should be using a pxa2xx chipset
guess i misintpreted the chip, i read the document and it just listed chipsets, thats why i thoght it was a platform (besides the name contianing "platform") and the fact you cant buy it (as its more of a design guide)
well its getting to the end of the week and i have 1 last thing to hand in and then i will start some heavy R&D and design, next week there should be a website with wiki up as well as some pics of board layout
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self made pda price around 400$
http://www.azpower.com/mylinux/hw_build-up.html (http://www.azpower.com/mylinux/hw_build-up.html)
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It's been a while since I've seen MyLinux PLW. This thread had brought it to mind a few times, but I forgot the name. If you're looking for more DIY PDAs in the past, search for "Compaq Itsy".
Anyways, I've remembered that there were a couple of blogs about building a open-source/hardware phone. Both have been idle for quite a while before I stopped checking them regularly, and checking them now, one seems to be gone, the other had an update that they had created a website, and it seems the website is now up: http://www.opencellphone.org/index.php?title=Main_Page (http://www.opencellphone.org/index.php?title=Main_Page)
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I have seen both of those project and just relised that they must have been at the back of my mind the entire time
the Mylinux board story gives a good insite to the problems we face in trying to make this thing, unless there are large sponsers i dont think we will be able to produce this in volume (hence why i keep saying dual licsencing, mabey to gumstix or the gpx32 guys)
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I have two questions about:
1. Screen: size, resolution, price (or link)
2. keyboard (link)
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I have two questions about:
1. Screen: size, resolution, price (or link)
2. keyboard (link)
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=133228\")
Both are still to be decided last I heard. We're hoping for a 640x480 touchscreen in the 3.5" to 4" range, and a few were linked (I could only find a link to the [a href=\"http://www.gethightech.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=XX1811&Category_Code=DELL]X50v[/url] screen in a quick search, though.) I believe Da_Blitz mentioned creating a custom board for the keyboard, but was unsure about the membrane.
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I got toshiba e800 screen 4" 640x480 believe me it's hard to read
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I got toshiba e800 screen 4" 640x480 believe me it's hard to read
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
It depends on your eyesight, I suppose. Most reports I've seen says that the e800 screen is pretty good.
There's nothing stopping you from using a lower res or larger screen in your own build. I've found a seller on eBay with 6.4" displays, about the absolute maximum size for a non-widescreen display in a handheld, IMO, with 640x480 resolution.
Edit:
I was reading the "2D/3D Graphics Support in the i.MX31 and i.MX31L Multimedia Applications Processors" White Paper, mainly because I can't seem to download the datasheet for the processor for some reason.
Anyways, I found some cool stuff about the iMX31's graphics:
It has the ability to use an external video accelerator chip. I doubt you could use it for a secondary display, though.
The built-in accelerator can share memory with the processor, or use seperate memory. With 256MB of DDR ram, and Quake 3 likely the highest 3D game this will be running, I think shared memory should be fine. Nice to know that it can be done, however.
The built-in accelerator doesn't bother rendering stuff you can't see (unlike most desktop accelerators), which gives a nice performance boost.
They had a chart that said that the performance of the accelerator is better than the orginal Playstation. There's more specific numbers, but not very readable.
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I got toshiba e800 screen 4" 640x480 believe me it's hard to read
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
if you're running pocketPC it probably will be, my guess/understanding is that QVGA was all it was designed for, so running a higher res simply makes things smaller (much like Windows x86 tends to do). The same mistake was made by Palm, and the transition to scalable rendering was never properly completed, what with Sony doing their own hires hacks.
this is one key advantage of linux in that it's much less dependent on display resolution
I forget who said it but an old adage went something like "those who do not understand unix are condemned to relearn all the mistakes it made".
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p.s. whatever happened to the rplacement Nokia 770 with qwerty keyboard that was heralded a while ago?
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as far as i know the keyboard was a hoax, you could use a bluetoothe one thogh, it would work quite nicly
"those who do not understand unix are condemned to relearn all the mistakes it made".
i belive that it went: those who dont understand unix are doomed ot reinvent it, or somthing similar
the reason i want higher pixels counts is for the extra calrity, i find it makes things easier to read, but if we get vga out going then higher pixels = good thing
i am looking into a seperate video decoder as he inbuilt stuff has some limitations, but i dont expect it to allow for moives, only as a big FB for X
built-in accelerator doesn't bother rendering stuff you can't see (unlike most desktop accelerators)
in fact you will fitd most do include this feature (cant remeber what its called, hidden surface removal or culling or somthing) and this feature can be used in opengl (if coards are placed clockwise then the surface is facing you otherwise it has its back to you and you dont need to render it, get the blue book and red book, they are good reads and are free (google: blue red book opengl))
if i remeber corectly gnome dosent do by pixel but by real length or somthing so that text is always the same only at higher rez, part of CIRO or somithing
quake 3 would be nice but i prefer quake 1 ZPSX anyone
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in fact you will fitd most do include this feature (cant remeber what its called, hidden surface removal or culling or somthing) and this feature can be used in opengl (if coards are placed clockwise then the surface is facing you otherwise it has its back to you and you dont need to render it, get the blue book and red book, they are good reads and are free (google: blue red book opengl))
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133287\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
'Z occlusion culling' is one buzzword that was used for that
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Any one seen any other chips that might be nice to use (including as the main cpu) just thoght it was worth asking as you never know what might turn up
as far as i can tell even thogh the arm11 are multicore capable, no one has produced a multicore chip which is a shame as they had the ability to do some cool stuff including turning off any of the cores to save power (plug in and turn all cores on or go on battery and power saving)
found this in the 68K section, seems intresting
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/app_note/AN2385.pdf (http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/app_note/AN2385.pdf)
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Please ignore link, was not what i thoght it was
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This page gives a good guide to the range and size of finger print read modules http://www.fujitsu.com/us/services/edevice...ometricsensors/ (http://www.fujitsu.com/us/services/edevices/microelectronics/biometricsensors/)
notice how small the strip one is
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Don't know if this has been posted on the forums. it may be of interest to you:
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32703 (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32703)
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Don't know if this has been posted on the forums. it may be of interest to you:
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32703 (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32703)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133303\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
yes, it's the compulab one already mentioned
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#$!~E@@#$!%$#X D^&$@IK&$%K@&!!!!!!!!!!
as i said that link will follow me to my grave, im supriesd it keeps coming up when there are options like gumstix
i guess it was because its recent news
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I was reading the RadioScape website and one of their big integrators/OEM manufacturers is Namtai, who appear to build the sort of things we want.
http://www.namtai.com/corpinfo/products.htm (http://www.namtai.com/corpinfo/products.htm)
Might be worth putting together a bill of materials and asking them how much they'd charge fo r creatings boards to your specification?
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i would hate to see the costs but i think that reselling the design under a diffrent licsence or selling it to a company such as the gpx32 or gumstix guys may be the way to get the numbers we need
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Hmmm. . . I think the Open Source aspect of the PocketPenguin is important, because it will set a standard as well as a reference plat form for open source hardware development. After all, this is the first piece of fully open source computer hardware, right? (I know about the chips being closed. Term used in context.)
We'll have also built the first commercially available TuxPhone. ^^
I'm still looking at the Sharp 4" CG Silicon screen (Same as the 6000) That we already looked at. We'll need a supplier, but it's the best choice I've seen as of yet.
Also, on the point of manufacturing, I think that we can see at least 20 or so of these units in the first batch, which isn't enough for a big commercial sale. That'll push the cost up, but after the first batch is done and the reviews come in, the rest will follow!
RE the conversation with DBHI last night:
Made points of Casing and shielding. Looking at a Laser-Etched Carbon fibre case for strength and weight, with an earth-connected foil shield on back and front of the case. Also aluminium shield on the board itself, similar to the Universal (See the Handhelds.org new wiki Universalhardware page.)
Also made a point that the CPU can ACTUALLY handle 512mb of DDR, and we looked at using 2x2Gb standard DDR chips for a total of 512MB of ram. This of course will almost certainly use less power than the 8 MDDR chips that we'd otherwise need. (MDDR is max 32MB/chip.)
Also looked at the Freescale RFX300-20 chipset fr 3G/GPRS. Am emailing Freescale for more information on this chip: It is Quadband GSM with Class 12 GPRS and about 5 different "Broadband" wireless standards. We need to know if it acts completely as a Serial Modem, because if it does then no 3g stack will be needed and the whole chip can be used straight off. (If only the GSM/GPRS are serial controlled, then we will only have Phone/Narrowband until an Open Source stack is coded or we license a commercial one.)
Finally, on the point of the secondary screen for quick mobile-phone mode reference, We've decided on a 128x128 Nokia-type TFT, which has a very low power requirement, as well as an SPI interface, which will be connected to the onboard FPGA.
Currently, we need to know a Supplier for 2Gb DDR266 chips and prices, As well as for the 4" Sharp CG display mentioned earlier in this thread.
Update on the boot system:
Since the CF slot is 8 Bit ATA mode (To leave the DDR bus alone.), we will not be able to hotswap cards. For this reason the total flash memory will be quite small, in the region of 16-32MB. On this will be a Hardware locked bootloader with a personal encryption system, tied to the internal unique key of the system's iMX chip. This will kexec a 2.6.x kernel (Probably on the CF card) and the operating system. The bootloader will only load a signed OS, and the Drive will be encrypted, so he who steals your PP shall be screwed. Along with the Biometric reader, No one who isn't you can use or resell the PP.
Another function of this is the GSM/GPRS chip. It should be possible to put into the bootloader a function that traces the PDA via the Cellular network whenever an incorrectly signed ROM is loaded, or a SIM card is changed without entering it's details into some form of "Accepted cards" list. And yes, all of this should be configurable etc from GUI for myself and all the other simpletons. ^^
This could also access the Bluetooth/Wifi subsystems and use SMS to send the MAC addresses and names of any local hardware along with the trace data. This would enable the police to locate and recover the penguin safely, by providing them with a big fat arrow saying "CRIMINALS 'R' 'ERE". A happy thought, n'est pas? And yes, this could be set to redirect to one of your own phones, instead of to the police, if you're uncomfortable about possibilities of being traced yourself.
So this leaves as expansion:
2x SD, potentially SDIO sockets.
1x USB480 sockets, for your convenience.
1x Serial Port with JTAG port.
1x Bluetooth, with Serial Port profile etc.
1x HDTV 800x600 port.
Nx ridiculous Audio subsystem I/O.
Anyone got any problems with this?
Current Hardware plan.
Freescale iMX31 ARM CPU with 3D, 2D, Video Accelerator.
Freescale RFX300-20 Quad band 2G 2.5G 3G Cellular Chip.
Sharp 4" CG Silicon Display with Touchpanel, 640x480 with 320x240 support.
UNKNOWN User programmable FPGA as ASIC.
UNKNOWN 512MB (4Gb) DDR-266 memory in 2 chips.
UNKNOWN 16MB (128Mb) 8 Bit NAND bootloader flash.
UNKNOWN Laser Etched Black Carbon Fibre Case. (Foil shielded)
UNKNOWN 802.11G via Internal USB.
UNKNOWN Bluetooth v1.1 (4MBPS Max) via Internal USB.
UNKNOWN Internal ATA CF socket for use with user Supplied Storage (OS)
Nokia/SparkFun 128x128 SPI Graphical TFT for phone status info. (And flashlight. )
UNKNOWN Keyboard module
UNKNOWN 1800+ mAh Battery (Video Camera)
Illuminated Trackball with Select function (Power indicator )
UNKNOWN Scroll wheel with Select function
Fujitsu (UNKNOWN) Slide-bar Serial Biometric finger Scanner.
UNKNOWN IRDA for backwards compatibility?
UNKNOWN End-type speakers on edges of screen panel section of case.
UNKNOWN Microphone module.
UNKNOWN Internal Vibrator.
UNKNOWN Accelerometer for use with Trackball for Kicking serious butt on Quake.
Everything UNKNOWN still needs a Manufacturer/Supplier. I'm looking, but some (most) of you guys have better contacts than me.
Back to working on Case design, Stamp, how you doing with the keyboard panel?
Ferret.
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Extra point, Forgot to mention:
Videomemory is shared between CPU and Internal Video.
With 512MB we can have 384 on CPU, and 128MB dedicated to Video.
Ok, ok, 448/64
In any case, I can see this being a pretty 31337 system. It looks to be more towards the price of the HTC Universal, at around £630 (950 USD?) After you add a 2gb CF card. Expensive, but the best piece of PDA hardware on the planet for the next 4 years.
If this is on sale, it'll force all the other Companies to buck up their ideas hardware wise, no?
VIVA OPEN SOURCE!
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I'm still looking at the Sharp 4" CG Silicon screen (Same as the 6000) That we already looked at. We'll need a supplier, but it's the best choice I've seen as of yet.
I've been trying to get someone at
http://www.heroelectronics.com/ (http://www.heroelectronics.com/)
to respond to see if they will sell me a 6000 display which looks like this:
http://www.zaurus.org.uk/images/6000_screen_separate.m.jpg (http://www.zaurus.org.uk/images/6000_screen_separate.m.jpg)
here's a close-up on the part numbers:
http://www.zaurus.org.uk/images/6000_screen_codes.m.jpg (http://www.zaurus.org.uk/images/6000_screen_codes.m.jpg)
No response so far :-(
climbs on soapbox...
Oh yes, can I add one thing. BE VERY SURE THAT THE SPECIFICATIONS OF ALL THE CHIPS ARE PUBLIC. .. and that therefore the driver code can be fully GPL'd. Ensure that if you sign an NDA, it's purely temporary.
Why? Two Examples:
1] The 6000 uses a Toshiba companion chip and there is virtually NO documentation available (despite a LOT of effort) on the video acceleration and how to program it - result, the 6000 is not very good for movie playback.
2] a philips USB webcam driver was written for linux using specifications released under NDA.. the NDA expired and the driver had to be withdrawn and a new one reverse engineered
The original ATI W100 chip in the 750/750/860 also had similar problems, but luckily the demand was there and the skill on tap to create a good driver. The BVDD driver for the PXA270 came along rapidly and I guess it's because Intel have a positive attitude to publishing specifications and/or driver code.
I'll climb off my soapbox now
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Might make some corrections to Ferret simpsons post
ATA is 16 or 32 Bit an should be operating in UDMA mode, this means a minor speed increse over normal CF as well as much lower CPU overhead and NO memorey bus performance hit like the xscales, this is good news as the multimedia performance of this chip is quite good
flash is 8bit (not the HD) we could make it 16 bit but then it sits on the mem bus, as i said to feret i am aiming for battery life/performance first
one advantage this chip has is its IO capabilities are much better than the xscale so onboard video with shared memorey is not actually that bad, i cant wait to compaer this thing to a dell x50v, when i mean IO is good i mean it, you can read/write to flash, mem and the hard drive all at the same time (they are on diffrent busses) and the video card has its own dedicated bus to memorey so it dosent have contention over who can acssess the memorey controller
the NDA thing is a big isuue for me, i wont work with any chip that needs a NDA (i basically take them as meaning "our chips suck and we dont want you to tell anyone), open documentation is like playing poker with everyone able to see your hand (i mean that in a good way).
That said freescale has good documentation and could be compared to intel (there were no NDA isuues with BVDD, some one just had to sit down, read the docs and write the driver). i do belive that freescale has a libopengles libary, i must check the board support package they provide for that whoever they are known to be very open source friendly. one thing about the radio just bieng controlled by a serial port is that it should allow me to avoid NDA's as the RF stuff typically has that
the partioning of memorey is slightly worng as well, as far as i can see you dont partion it, you have an area for the frame buffer and allocate memorey as needed, whowevr i havent read the docs carefully enogh to be sure and it probelly depends an the driver as well (can anyone comment
next step is what software i use to design this, the current tools i have would allow me to work rapidly but i would only be releasing snapshots so the development model is slightly diffrent, one problem i can see is if someone wants to help then merging changes will be a problem. does anyone have any tools they would prefer or prefer to be seen bieng used (OSS?)
i was thinking of the most anoying production name i could come up with: harPWN3D dont tell me what you think i get the idea , inspired by a harpoon missle
a little update on ferrets excelent post
accelerometer: freescale
gyroscope: freescale
fpga or CPLD: xilinx
internal ATA socket: dosent matter (generic)
DDR: infieon, hynix, samsung
flash samsung (hard to beat)
i updated these as they are all generic parts that i can get from places like digikey (very expensive compared to others) or several other manufacturers, where possible i am using freescale chips for several reasons (that i want go into)
keyboard pannel will be hooked to a 8x8 keyboard matrix scanner (on chip) so 16 pins + power (vcc, gnd) + LEDS (TBD, at least backlight (6 LEDs)+ 5 status LEDS, power LED, HD LED, i was hoping for multicolor backlighting so blue when typing, red with capslock or stiky shift on)
video out is still on but proper hdmi is out as there is no analog component to it, unless i can get a majic all in one chip that dose encoding of the signal for me (hdmi is a NDA thing), i was just hopping to use it as a VGA cable connector (means you have to wire your own) unless i can find a connector i am happy with or an encoder chip (personly i want an encoder chip). if we do go full hdmi then you lose the ability to plug it into a TV as well (throgh component or AV cables) without ethier a bulky adaptor or if the TV supports it
and for those who didnt guess DBHI is me (Dablitz Heavy Industries)
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. On this will be a Hardware locked bootloader with a personal encryption system, tied to the internal unique key of the system's iMX chip. This will kexec a 2.6.x kernel (Probably on the CF card) and the operating system. The bootloader will only load a signed OS, and the Drive will be encrypted, so he who steals your PP shall be screwed. Along with the Biometric reader, No one who isn't you can use or resell the PP.
Another function of this is the GSM/GPRS chip. It should be possible to put into the bootloader a function that traces the PDA via the Cellular network whenever an incorrectly signed ROM is loaded, or a SIM card is changed without entering it's details into some form of "Accepted cards" list. And yes, all of this should be configurable etc from GUI for myself and all the other simpletons. ^^
This could also access the Bluetooth/Wifi subsystems and use SMS to send the MAC addresses and names of any local hardware along with the trace data. This would enable the police to locate and recover the penguin safely, by providing them with a big fat arrow saying "CRIMINALS 'R' 'ERE". A happy thought, n'est pas? And yes, this could be set to redirect to one of your own phones, instead of to the police, if you're uncomfortable about possibilities of being traced yourself.
the phone home and track thing is not my idea but a reimplementation from xda-developers.org, i rolled a custom wince ROM for several XDA 2's (ie the himalayen) with this feature in it after reading a fourm post
the tracking function is quite limited but once you notify the police (at least in australia) there is the potential that they can acurattly track it, the best the pocket penguine can do at the moment is report which cell phone towers it can see and thier strength, and any location services your provider provides
the kernel signing thing is very simmilar to trusted computing (i "liberated" a few ideas from them), but its all done in software in user mode, basically the iMX3 decrypts and verifies the flash wihchi contians uboot and the bootloader kernel (the kexec one). then depending on options you have set it will go to the next stage, if you tell it no security then it looks for a kernel in a /boot folder (simmilar to how PC's do it) and execs that, note that the thing it exec's can be a program and may even be a script
if you have security enabled then things get more secure it basically does the same as above except that it looks for a kernel that has been signed with a gpg key, you store your PUBLIC key on the device and keep your secret key secret. if it all matches up then the kernel will boot.
there will also be support for booting of an encrypted partion (that is the kernel to be booted is on the encrypted partion itself). because the kexecing kernel is linux, it has the linux crypto stuff so it can be told to get the decryption key, decrypt and mount the drive, copy the kernel to memory, then kexec the kernel
one cool thing about this chip is the built in encryption/decryption engine that uses a chip specific key, the program using the crypto module has no knowlage of the key. what this means is that you can store the keys in an encrypted form in flash. when the bootloader kernel boots it asks the crypto module for the keys which it uses to decrypt the partion and boot the kernel, then the loaded and gpg signed kernel boots and asks the crypto module for the unlock key again which it then uses to decrypt and start init.
the cool thing is that this can all be done without entering a pass phrase, however if you have root then you could comprimise the keys but even with normal crypto hard disks under linux this is posible, you might think that if someone boots thier own program then the can get the key without hacking your pda and getting root but thats where the gpg signigtures come into play (assuming your private key is kept safe)
works nicely , but dont forget there is the option to turn all this stuff off, the idea is that we use a linux kernel in a RO 16MB flash partion so we can easily write a bootloader in bash or simmilar, this makes Distro development alot easier as you can just have a distro on SD card and swap them as the distro kernel dosent need to be flashed but can reside on /
i really want to make it hard to brick the device, so if i can flash will be RO in hardwear and not by mount -o ro. i also wanted to make it easier for the distro people to make distros by removing the posibilty of bricking, kernel size not limited by flash, hot swapable (ie complete distro on SD, nice for dev work, reboot and kexec from CF to go to normal usage)
anyone care to comment or add to this, i know its overkill for all but probelly 5 people on this fourm but for those people it makes encryption alot easier (eg booting off encrypted /)
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For hardware write protection, you could have a jumper on the write line of the flash, and remove the jumper once you have JTAG'ed in the initial ROM. That'd make it unbrickable as a PDA, but give the option of reflashing later, should flaws in the bootloader be found, new features be needed, or when selling to another user (that way they aren't locked out by your key).
BTW, are you going to be making the initial ROM bootloader yourself Da-Blitz? I have an odd feature request for it: supporting loading from a set loop-back file on a FAT16/32 formated card. That way, it'd be easier to share the card with another device, or get a new card setup when you only have access to a Win based PC. I could see taking this on a trip as one's only PC-like device, where there is the possiblity of loosing or breaking the card would leave you with no way to get an image back on with anything but a coffee house PC or someone's laptop. Also, quickly switching the card into a camera when you don't have time to grab the pictures off the current one to get a few more precious snapshots would sometimes be handy.
One last thing, is there any ROM developers already considering porting to this OpenPDA? Getting a ROM developer interested early would probably be a good thing.
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can do, in fact i suspect that many pepole would mant that as it allows you to boot into opie or gpe in OZ by doing that trick
the inital boot loader will be written by hand to load a linux kernel which then bootloads another kernel, this is for a number of reasons but it means bootloaders can be written in python/c/bash or whatever you feel like
i have made it easy for rom developers however i dont really see that as a problem to begin with as i suspect that the people who buy the first lot will be a bit more tech savy than most, if it ges bigger then we will need them
also remeber that there is no CF, there is however a CF socket internaly with an ATA interface so if you have a camera a usb cable might be a better idea
back to the pda, when everything is finalised and i can hand it off to kerenel devs than i will be hevily focusing on user space. i am thinking of using OZ as a base and doing some modifications (submitting changes back as needed) and writing some docs. i want to make it more like a modern PC distro (eg fedora, suse) where everything is well setup and there are standards. i feel the OZ packages are a bit inconsistent however the are trying to provide a modular aproch and i belive thats what causes it (eg few packages ship with config files)
please dont set HRW onto me for that, my design desions will be diffrent and thats because i expect to have a huge area for /, think of me as polishing the packages a bit
i never did consider the posibility of selling to another user but i will have to take that into acount, i am still trying to work out how to do the flash as it is a dificult problem, reflashing is needed in my opinion but how to do it properly and securyly is what i need to think about, idealy you can flash from inside the bootloader, but then there is the posibility of bricking the device, whereas if i use 2 flash chips i can use the second one as patch space for the first
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can do, in fact i suspect that many pepole would mant that as it allows you to boot into opie or gpe in OZ by doing that trick
the inital boot loader will be written by hand to load a linux kernel which then bootloads another kernel, this is for a number of reasons but it means bootloaders can be written in python/c/bash or whatever you feel like [...]
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=133648\")
Sounds a lot like what LAB (Linux As Bootloader) is doing right now. I'd advice you to look into that before reinventing the wheel. See [a href=\"http://joshuawise.com/contact]http://joshuawise.com/contact[/url] on how to reach the main developer.
[...] i am thinking of using OZ as a base and doing some modifications (submitting changes back as needed) and writing some docs. [...]
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I'd recommend using OE instead of OZ to have the same base, but leave out all the niggles and warts dictated by OZ's distro policy. Modifying binary images is what started the Z community, but it is definately not the way to go in the long run.
If you want to use an ARM core, please consider using EABI from the start, otherwise you'll end up with a big compatibility headache in a few months when debian-arm switches and the rest of the arm-dev world follows.
Oh dear, we are already discussing userspace issues when the hardware doesn't even exist yet
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also remeber that there is no CF, there is however a CF socket internaly with an ATA interface so if you have a camera a usb cable might be a better idea
Here in the US, CF is almost dead in consumer cameras (still doing well in prosumer, though), AFAIK. I could choose basically between XD and SD for media when I was last shopping for a camera. My current camera uses SD, and is about a centimeter taller than a CF card set on edge.
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Here in the US, CF is almost dead in consumer cameras (still doing well in prosumer, though), AFAIK. I could choose basically between XD and SD for media when I was last shopping for a camera. My current camera uses SD, and is about a centimeter taller than a CF card set on edge.
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true, for removable flash memory (cameras and mp3 players) CF is dying out because SD is catching up with CF in capacity and beating in on price mostly. However, because of the lack of SDIO, we need CF for modems, bluetooth, wifi, gps, GSM/GPRS etc. Hopefully this new powerpenguinzaurus will alleviate the need for much of these peripherals.
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thanks for the warnnining about EABI, i will keep that in mind
OZ and OE, sorry about that its very easy to mix the two up. my problems might in actual fact be with OZs policy but with OE as they like to keep it small whereas i want to keep it easy and fully functional (ie all features, nano w/ colors i am looking at you). anyway as you said this is user space, and we are not there yet nor is this the place to discuss it
i am aware that CF is dead but i want to have the CF slot internal for those who want to put a microdrive in the thing or want to euse thier CF cards for /, if its an isuue with enough people i will drop it but i think it is a good idea in the medium term to have one in designs (medium bieng 4 years, there may be wore pocket penguine models in the future, i sure hope so)
i have heard of LAB but last time i checked as far as i could see it was dead, i guess with the kexec patches it would make this project alot easier
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i am aware that CF is dead but i want to have the CF slot internal for those who want to put a microdrive in the thing or want to euse thier CF cards for /, if its an isuue with enough people i will drop it but i think it is a good idea in the medium term to have one in designs (medium bieng 4 years, there may be wore pocket penguine models in the future, i sure hope so)
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A external cf slot would be usefull for
a) legacy cf hardware like rfid scanners, barcode readers, etc
viewing pictures taken with my cameras (all 3 use cf)
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a) legacy cf hardware like rfid scanners, barcode readers, etc
viewing pictures taken with my cameras (all 3 use cf)
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there are also SD to CF adaptors whch allow you to read an SD flash card in a CF slot, so the reasons for keeping an external CF slot are quite compelling.
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But the reasons for losing it are even MORE compelling.
Our point behind dropping CFIO is simple. To have full CF, we'll need to eat into the DDR memory bus, which is not something we want to do, because we're building this for performance.
The system will have onboard USB2-480, Bluetooth, Wifi (54MBPS with WPA), a 3G enabled phone, and a VGA output port.
56K modems are pretty much obsolete by anyone's standards. The only time I've ever used one is when my broadband goes down, and nowadays when that happens I use GPRS instead. With onboard 3G, a modem is pointless, because if you're going to be using 56k for long periods of time, you seriously need to consider getting a laptop, or just upgrading to broadband. XP
There will be an onboard FPGA-type device acting as an ASIC for people who want to add extra hardware (Be that an RFID scanner or whatever) To which some pins will be left open on the board.
You can get modern USB barcode scanners, and these will plug straight in to the onboard USB, without any problems, and with everything else onboard, it's not a big price to pay.
To add an external CF slot causes problems for the Docking function that Blitz is working on, where the ATA interfaces with a hard disk in a "Dumb laptop" that the Penguin is docked with.
And then there's the point of it eating into the memory bus. It'll reduce the amount of memory, and seriously hit the performance. Currently, we're actually looking at being able to play divx movies at 640x480 in full speed, aswell as good gaming at that res, or even up to the full 800x600 when docked. If we attach CFIO to the memory, that performance will be gone.
They're aren;t enough NEW CFIO devices being released any more. It's becoming almost impossible to get ANY CF wifi, let alone a prism card, the external VGA devices have gone, External Serial cards are few and far between and I've NEVER been able to track down a CF barcode scanner. The hardware companies are moving everything to SDIO, which is commercial, and well supported. (By the companies that they care about, Aka Symbol, HP, Microsoft, Dell, ACER.)
The sockets will be SDIO compatible, if anyone wants to license a stack for their Penguin, and with USB480 and everything else onboard. . It's just not WORTH it. The only big developments in CF are Microdrives and big flash.
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Oh, one last point:
There are 2 onboard SD sockets.
You want another WHY?
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i can still see no reason for removable CF when i can get a huge performance boostfrom both moiving cf off the ddr bus and bieng able to use dma on the cf card to reduce cpu overhead
if you want another removable CF socket and SD socket buy a 154325232532 in 1 card reader
SDIO wise i have been seeing and hearing things about linux and sdio, dont hold your breath but there are things happening
anyway, this pda is sort of a diffrent way of doing things, i know you all want SDIO and CF however why do you want that when you have onboard bluetooth and gsm/gprs (and perhaps wifi) as well as usb, we are taking away the specilised pda busses and replacing them with the full no holds barred well suported PC busses
seriosly is there any reason to use an sdio or cfio card when you have usb 2.0 and a full sized socket, i know it makes some of your investments obselete however is it easier to get a usb barcode scanner or a CF/SDIO ane, plus which is more likly to have driver support
that said i can see that there is very little discussion on whats going to be in it so i am asuming that most people agree with the feature set, onec i have the wiki up ill ask if there is anything else anyone wants to add and then freeze the feature set and start sourcing parts like a madman
ps sorry about the spelling, i have a bad habit of typing words or letters backwards and normally when i type this its minutes before i go to sleep
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Um. . . Can you put a Blu-Ray drive in it?
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Um. . . Can you put a Blu-Ray drive in it?
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if you put a memory stick slot and an UMD drive into it, we might be able to get Sony to subsidise it :-)
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I've been trying to get someone at
http://www.heroelectronics.com/ (http://www.heroelectronics.com/)
to respond to see if they will sell me a 6000 display which looks like this:
I rang them up and was told that Sharp don't sell that display outside of Japan to system builders, but there was one they DO, so they would look into that and come back to me. I explained that we need a transflective (daylight visible) display, minimal size 3.5", VGA resolution...
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Built-in Touchscreenlayer, Built in Backlight. . .
Good work!
Quite naturally, we hail!!!
I want FF7. . .
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Wow. CF is still a touchy subject in this thread. I made a comment about CF in consumer level cameras which started a heated discussion about having or not having external CF in this PDA.
Anyways, keep the ATA interface. Though, I'd perfer it to be in the form of a 44pin notebook IDE connector, that way you can plug in adapters for CF flash or microdrives, plug in an adapter for 1.8" Ipod style drives, and be able to plug the other kind of 1.8" drives and 2.5" notebook HDs directly into it. Also, is there anything stopping you from powering down the ATA interface on the fly? If you can do that, you could have the CF ATA port external, sync, umount, and power down the interface, swap cards, and power it back up and remount with a small applet. That would end a small amount of the CF versus non-CF debate, as you could use CF memory cards from an older or higher-end camera about as easily as one does now with a Z.
The only other change I'd make personally is drop the micro-trackball for a touch point, but I'd likley be able to do that on my own when assembling the PDA.
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The only other change I'd make personally is drop the micro-trackball for a touch point, but I'd likley be able to do that on my own when assembling the PDA.
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Internal touchpoint? Not likely. A microtrackball could easily be fit into something the size of a cxxxx/uni and be fully useable- this is not the case with a touchpoint. You'd need at least 25 square cm to have an even semi-unseable touchpoint and that is waaay to much PDA real estate. Maybe if you're not bothered about a keyboard...
What is all this fuss about barcode scanners? Why would anybody want one of those? Who in their right mind is going to use the pp0 as an EPOS or super-mega barcode battler Seriously though!
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What is all this fuss about barcode scanners? Why would anybody want one of those? Who in their right mind is going to use the pp0 as an EPOS or super-mega barcode battler Seriously though!
me too.. I am wondering why... could not the IRDA be used as a barcode scanner - switch from IR to visible LED?
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As far as my Docs tell me (Ok, tell DBHI, who I've make tell me in Plain terms)
The ATA interface is not in anyway hotpluggable. It's like a standard IDE. If you've ever tried hotpluging one, the System resets.
Internal touchpoint? It's got one.
It's called a Resestive Touch-Layer on the screen. Remember? You operate the menu's with it. XP
The notebook connector idea is a point as far as the internal storage goes, but we're most likely going to be using CF/MDrives, since they're easier to get, and there is no space for a hard disk inside. ATA will be accessible by the docking station, which will most likely be in the form of a laptop that the System slides into. This will have it's own Screen, keyboard, Hard disk battery and pointing device. I also mentioned the possibility to DBHI of basically making the laptop a completely separate machine to the PP, with Dual-Configuration twin iMX31's, not sure what he thinks about it. Just have a bluetooth or wifi linkup between the two, and prehaps an external charger output for the PocketPenguin running off of it. (The whole thing would look like the Desk-Terminal and Tricorder system used in Star Trek TNG and Star Trek Voyager, actually. I thought it was cool.) The point of this is a very low power drain laptop with pretty powerful (Well. . . Kinda) Embedded CPU's, and a full ATA66 Notebook hard disk in, of any size you like. You could essentially run the laptop (with say a 6000mAh standard battery) for about 48 hours with no recharge and the screen's backlight off. Only disadvantage of the system is the 800x600 max res of the iMX framebuffer, although with the 2 iMX's we could feasibly combine them for 800x1200, or 1600x600 display. (Rotate the first 90 degrees and you get a 1200x800 landscape display. . .)
Of course, that would be binary compatible with most PP apps, so most code wouldn't even need a recompile, as long as it was deisgned to handle the extra CPU and Screen size/Res.
Also gives us 1024mb DDR266 in the unit.
1.06ghz notebook with 1024mb DDR266 and a 60gb ATA66 Hard disk and a 1200x800 screen? I'll take one of those to go with my PP!
I also had a look at a site he was poking with. Looks like a fully printed and soldered board set, with all shielding, components, connectors, PCB and keyboard is likely to cost around $450-$500 for the initial prototypes.
If someone can find the price of whatever the heck Case, TFT panels, speakers, camera and battery we're using We've got the rough price for the initial batches of PocketPenguin0.
I'd say what. . . $700 total? Maybe $800 if we're unlucky? Isn't that less than the price of a 6000L? ^^
That's about the same price as a Uni, which is the real device we're trying to beat. (Clamshell Z's are kinda out of date. What we're doing is building an open source Universal with the best features from the clamshell Z - Changeable large battery, Internal Hard disk.
Good way to describe thee PP0 is a Uni-3000 hybrid with extended features.
And the laptop concept DBHI and I have been poking at. . I hereby give it the working title of DeskPenguin, whenther it be either a docking station OR a connectible separate entity.
(Remember, the DeskPenguin could use the PP as a Bluetooth modem or Wifi router to gain access to the onboard 3G connection. It also means we could have the Dual processor system without cluttering up the inside of the PP0, since the Dual processor would only be activated when docked anyway.)
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From what I can tell, you mistook touch point for touch pad in my post. Touch point (aka Trackpoint) is a little pencil eraser looking pointing device, often times crammed between keys on a laptop keyboard, that you tilt to make the cursor go in the direction you want. This something that can fit (minus controller, but one could tap an ADC on the proc) in 40mm squared, with mounting hardware.
Touch pad on the other hand, is that annoying (IMO) little square that you have to move your finger across it's surface to tell the pointer where to go. That, I agree, is far too large for a handheld, and fairly big for most smaller notebooks.
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Threr is a remote posibility that you can power down the ata interface and replug it due te the CF socket, i wouldnt try it with a laptop hard drive thogh. i dought i would even have the space for alaptop harddrive however i will try and have the pins on a connector so you con buy a slim case and get a hard drive backpack
over here we simply call the trackpoint a joystick (or mini joystick) i am asuuming you are refering to the red thing most ibm laptops have
at the moment the laptop is an idea, there are some things that need to be sorted (ie i dont think it will support 1GB of RAM) and 800x600 is the max without an external video card no matter how many chips you have (unless you want 2 independent screens)
the 450 to 500 figure was an estimete for the boards and the chips, nothing else see www.ezpcb.com
i thoght when you plugged it into a laptop docking station (thats all it is) you would be able to use the screen as a giant touchpad i can see why you would want a joystick, how about i replace the directonal pad with a joystick (up down left right and push down) will that be analg or digital?
case wise i was thinking about moiving the direction pad and pointer to the top of the keyboard to give the user more stability but i want your opinion on this. i also have a problem where my hands cramp up on ps2 controllers as they are so small so i am thinking of a case similar to the sidekick 3 with a fold up screen rather than a sliding one, this gives me alot of pcb real estate to play with and then i can make it thicker but shorter in depth and slightly wider (ie more rectangular)
in theroy you could use the irda as a scanner, the only reason bacode scanners include a led is so you can see what they are scanning (in fact i have seen some that do the actual scanning with an ir led because it gives a better signal) the best way te scan barcodes on this platform however is to ethier take a picture and have it processed in software (i have seen a gnu package that can do this) or make an adaptor that has an ir reciver and transmitter connected to the sound card, that works really well and you can do it on yaor normal Z's and use it to control the tv
just to finish up the laptop has the same limitations as the PP, dont expect more think of it as a docking station
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Threr is a remote posibility that you can power down the ata interface and replug it due te the CF socket, i wouldnt try it with a laptop hard drive thogh. i dought i would even have the space for alaptop harddrive however i will try and have the pins on a connector so you con buy a slim case and get a hard drive backpack
Awesome. I figured a 2.5" drive would be too big for the base design, but an iPod style 1.8" drive is about the same size as a PCMCIA card.
over here we simply call the trackpoint a joystick (or mini joystick) i am asuuming you are refering to the red thing most ibm laptops have
Yes, that's what I'm talking about. IBM developed it and apparently hold patents on the design, IIRC.
i can see why you would want a joystick, how about i replace the directonal pad with a joystick (up down left right and push down) will that be analg or digital?
Replacing the D-Pad with an analog stick would be nice, but the only one I know of that is nice and portable sized is the one on the Tapwave Zodiac (which I don't know of a source to get from in quantity).
case wise i was thinking about moiving the direction pad and pointer to the top of the keyboard to give the user more stability but i want your opinion on this. i also have a problem where my hands cramp up on ps2 controllers as they are so small so i am thinking of a case similar to the sidekick 3 with a fold up screen rather than a sliding one, this gives me alot of pcb real estate to play with and then i can make it thicker but shorter in depth and slightly wider (ie more rectangular)
Interesting idea! Putting the gaming/pointing controls to the sides of the screens, to where they are always exposed, sounds great, and then have the keyboard underneath the screens. With the main screen facing down and closed, having the controls to the side would mean no need for buttons on the small LCD side for MP3 control (and having analog control of fast-forward/rewind would be fun). open it up to display the main screen and use the thumbkeyboard the same way as you do on a current clamshell, and have the sides to hold onto for better stability. Finally you could flip the main screen around and close it to where it's up for some really cool gaming. I might draw up a diagram, and maybe even make a 3D mock up out of paper/cardboard.
the best way te scan barcodes on this platform however is to ethier take a picture and have it processed in software (i have seen a gnu package that can do this)
Does this take into account the viewing angle, or is it just for scanners, and would need some pre-processing?
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DaBlitz-
Yes- Thats a great idea to have a digital/analogue dpad and the trackball at the top (screen end) of the keyboard, but I don't know what Tom61 is talking about now. I must be misunderstanding but it sounds as if Tom61 now wants these controls on the sides of the screen/case. Dunno how that would work out as for a start there wouldn't be enough room for a d-pad on the side of the screen or case and it would then be totally unuseable except for when the screen is shut and your using it as a music player. I think you need to give us a diagram on this one Tom.
Like DBHI I also calls those wee nobs joysticks but they're my least favourite pointing device. They are the most compact though.
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Da_Blitz mentioned making it like a Sidekick 3, which has controls on the sides of the screen/keyboard area. Linky:
http://t-mobile.com/shop/Phones/Detail.asp...63-d6904503dc71 (http://t-mobile.com/shop/Phones/Detail.aspx?device=7a083f08-7f33-4941-ba63-d6904503dc71)
You can have smaller D-Pads or analog sticks that would fit on the sides without making the handheld too much bigger width wise.
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mmm, intresting, i forgot thats where the controls on the sidekick were, sounds good but i want to hear more feedback on it before i commit to it (basically im sold already as those side areas have alot of depth that the trackball needs)
the sidekick format is actually quite flexible, espesically with a flip around screen as you have the keyboard and gaming buttons or rotate the screen and fold it down so its pointing out and you get a game console format. mmmm.....
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not really it was an OCR program that could read barcodes, i never gave it a second glance as it hadent been updated in a while (was still a very complete and feature rich peice of OSS, reminds me of cat or simmilar) i asume you would have to preprocess the image by detecting the barcode then applying some squasing or minipulate it into a 1d piece of data (probelly esier to do it that way)
i can get a digital joystick easily (they do afterall use them in phones) mbut then you only get on and off, if you want analog i will dig futher but you might want to break a ps2 controller and have a look at the joystick in there, its just 2 potentimeters and some cassing
sidekick links (link didnt work for me)
http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/21/sidekic...review-roundup/ (http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/21/sidekick-3-review-roundup/)
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/06/20/t...ick-3-hands-on/ (http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/06/20/t-mobile-sidekick-3-hands-on/)
its a good formfactor for a phone and gaiming console while staying close to the general Z design which is ok for typing but i feel that with the extra bits at the side we should get more stability as well as it will stop my hands from cramping as it forces them to be in a more open postion
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So thats what he means by 'sides of the screen'!
I'm not entirely convinced with the SK design myself because
* SK3 design will add a lot of length to the design. We should avoid adding extra length, width or depth unless absolutely required
* SK3 design looks like it restricts thumb access to the keyboard. On a cxxxx it possible to type, and reach most keys, with either/both thumbs- not sure if you could do that on the SK3. Remember that at least one thumb needs to be able to easily access 8/10 keys for our beloved zpsx
* I don't like the slide-out screen idea. Whichever design gets chosen I want the screen to fold out like on the cxxxx and uni. I like to know my screen is protected when not in use. I would prefer the trackball and d-pad to be hidden and protected under the screen.
The only advantage to the SK3 design I can see is that we have more room for the keyboard.
Sorry, I'm too lazy to scan through this thread again but what was the plan for the far side of the pp? I would want some (smallish) 'L' and 'R' buttons, a scroll wheel (which can be tapped as a button too) and a HOLD switch for when screen is down and its being used as a music player we can prevent tracks skipping/ volume changing when we don't want (of course)
scroll wheel up/down - volume up/down
push scroll wheel - play/pause
L/R - Track up/down
push L or R for 2 secs- next/previous album
something like that. Are FFWD and RWD really necessary? They were essential in the days of tape but I don't think they're so important with digital music players- people just skip track/album normally.
If the pp0 is to be a decent music player, the HOLD switch is essential!
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Urgh. . . .
Hmm, I've always hated that design of computer and games platform. PSP? Hell. N-GAGE? Hell. That. . thing? Hell.
The way I see it, I only really play games with controllers If The PS2 conn is too small, try and get hold of an Original (LARGE) XBOX controller. It's USB, so it can be directly patched in to the Z's socket. Also the analogue stick? I'd rather have a trackball any day, and Those kinds of sticks are far more annoying for general use (Browsing, scrolling, selecting) than your average D-Pad. I have in fact NEVER seen a laptop being used with it. It's irritating and cumbersome.
On the point of the pad and ball moving to the top corner? I'd find that irritating as hell, too. Screen is even worse. . . And the OQO design? Sucks. Stick with the clamshell case design.
On the laptop. . . I thought Dual-CPU would get their full memory content each? Or do they share the combined 512MB DDR bus?
The more I thought about the PDA sliding into the case of the laptop, the less I liked it. When they can communicate wirelessly at 54mbps anyway, it seems kinda a waste of time. Better to use the Laptop almost-separately, but do a wireless resource share (Via Samba and X11?) to access the files and hardware on the pocketpenguin.
Also my note about combining the two framebuffers was sheer guesswork. I take it it doesn't work like thet? XD Perhaps it,s better if we add an external graphics chipset, such as a budget Nvidia go chip? Since the laptop can power this, it would be fine. We'd lose another chunk of battery life, but we'd get a full 1280x1024 display functionality.
Rough estimate of what I'd consider a featurelist of the DeskPenguin. . . 2iMX31, wifi, Bluetooth, USB/VGA/DVI/Serial, keyboard, touchpad/trackball/Anaglogue-stick, Another biometric scanner, a HDD, 512mb ram, a budget 3d accelerator of your choice, a batt and an optical drive.
It's basically a low-power notebook which requires the PocketPenguin to log in. The whole thing could have the same Embedded kernel secure bootloader system as the pocketpenguin, andd because it shares the hardware (Mostly) of the pocketpenguin, with SD slots etc, it should run the same applications natively, although the OS will have to be different to handle the external framebuffer, and the PP linking stuff. You could even forget the second bioscanner, since there'll be one readily available on the Penguin you're using to log in. Essentially, the penguin connects to a wifi card in it, and logs in over 802.11g SSH or similar. The rest of the OS is then brought up, the second (User data) partition on the hard disk is decrypted and accessed, (The first is just a basic system with wifi tools to accept incoming PP0 connections. This could also be done from flash if the flash was larger.) If say, it had 2 wifi chips, it could then log into another local wifi network which it could use to access other computer's resources. Of course, the DP0 has no 3G, no camera, no acellerometer etc. . . So for other functions, as well as to log in, the PP is required. But of course, since we're looking at the PP0 being X-based, the applications could literally be run as they are on the PP0, running in windows on the larger screen.
C'mon. You know it's genius. And because of the lack of hardware such as 3G, Cameras, touch panels, second screens, etc, I can't see this costing more than the standard PP. It's board density is lower too, thanks to the larger available space, bringing down the cost of production.
Maybe I'm going insane, but I'm not too sure about some of the last few ideas. . Keep 'em coming though. XD I'm hardly running this, so it's up to DB really.
And DB? You were right, we DO need a separate baseband processor. I'm following up some reccomendations FS made, and I'll get back to you.
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Well, as you can see, DanBoid and I agree kinda. Also, the L/R/Scrollwheel, good thinking, as is the "hold" slideswitch.
His idea for the keymapping for those is perfect. When I say FFWD/RW, I meant Track skip. XD
What do you think on my concept of the DESKPenguin, aswell?
One final note: Because of the Offchip GPU, we could save a few milliwatts from using the iMXL, couldn't we?
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The iMX31 sounds like a great piece of hardware, the only thing I don't like about it is the 800x600 max res on the onboard gfx. What WERE they thinking?? I know 800x600 would be impressive on a PDA right now but, cmon, it has OpenGL acceleration, 512MB RAM etc. It hardly seems worth the effort of plugging it into an external display if all I'm gonna get is 800x600
This is where the mantra kicks in again, we must
CONCENTRATE ON THE BATTERY LIFE (ommmmmmm
Of course adding a GoForce or something similar will consume precious board space, up the power consumption and the price. If DB can add an expansion option for a GFX accelerator without too much trouble though then that would be perfect!
If we get the L and R shoulder buttons in then one thumb need 'only' access 6 buttons (not 10 sorry! The 6 other keys being the equivalents of triangle, square, circle, cross, L2 and R2) as start and select aren't used much. Of course we could plug a jock-off USB pad in but that instantly doubles the amount of space the pp inhabits and suddenly its not so portable.
As for the deskpenguin- I'm not really interested, sorry. Once we get to that size I want more than a 500Mhz ARM chip- check how frickin' fast the latest Pentium M's are! I'd rather wait for intels Pentium M successor or even a cell based laptop. Yum!
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Rightfully, if any add-on 3DX board be added to the default spec of the PP we must insist the drivers and specs be 100% free, it being a Linux machine from birth- we owe it to RMS, Linus and everybody else who loves freedom and software!
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The additional GPU" I was talking about the DeskPenguin.
The deskpenguin was just a random idea we came up with while looking at Docking station ideas.
When I think about it, A dock for the Penguin is kinda silly, so we might as well just build the Embedded laptop completely separately. Forget the PP logon stuff, just have the deskpenguin a completely separate embedded computer designed for looong battery life and uncorruptibility. XD
So for now, forget it, and back to the PP.
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Hmmm. . . After the PP is made, I'm going to have to make a modified version. . just a one off. The PocketKitty!
But first I need to get an AROS ARM port.
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Ok
Another VERY serious post here.
The 3G chipsets from Freescale are starting to look pretty challenging to implement.
I've been looking at Qualcomm stuff, that is used in the Uni. This of course has several advantages. We can see the hardware that's in the Universal as a guide to what chips are needed and work together, and the software and drivers being written for the HTC Universal Linux port, should work without too much modification, on the PPZ.
http://www.cdmatech.com/products/msm6250_c...et_solution.jsp (http://www.cdmatech.com/products/msm6250_chipset_solution.jsp)
That's the main chip for the Uni 3G, which according to HH.O uses "Serial and USB Interfaces." Another job for our asic, and another worry for our limited number of USB ports. We've already run out, and the 3G now wants it.
Only problem is, we'll need to build our own open source ROM for the Radio. And yes, that means a kernel for the 3G processor and the stacks.
It's probably better if we start re-looking at the MC300 and i.300 chips.
If you check the www.handhelds.org Unirversalhardware page,
http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/UniversalHardware (http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/UniversalHardware)
And look at the Qualcomm chip, it has it's own mini flash and Ram combined chip, as well as the RF subsystem. I therefore now get how it works. The 3G modem in the Universal is an entirely separate computer system with it's own memory, ROM, and RF subsystem, linked to the main CPU over SPI.
It looks like http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/p...=01J4Fsm6cyDbFf (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MXC300-30&nodeId=01J4Fsm6cyDbFf)
Is the better of the two, and it's "Optimised for Linux."
Also Read the BR1094. Somewhere about Page 60 or so, it mentions "Freescales own 3G stack" while talking about support for open OS's.
Anyone got any dirt on this stack?
Right, so forget Qualcomm, we need this chip, a combined SD/NAND chip like the Samsung in the Top-left of the universal hardware page, and the RFX300 chipset to go with this. Clearly we patch the Audio I/O of this to our posh 7.1 audio chip, But the camera. . I'm guessing we optimise the camera for Linux VOIP and attach it to the IMX?
What IS the data rate of iMX31 SPI? Since all our data has to flow to the modem over this bus. . . .
We still also need the Wifi system planned, and the Bluetooth. . .
Let's move people, move! XP
I think this is my best revelation yet, n'est pas?
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The only usb wifi chipsets I've heard that have decent open src people for Linux that are still widely available over here is
http://linux-lc100020.sourceforge.net/ (http://linux-lc100020.sourceforge.net/)
This is what people are using with their gp2xs anyway
also consider these
http://rt2x00.serialmonkey.com/ (http://rt2x00.serialmonkey.com/)
http://www.ralinktech.com/ (http://www.ralinktech.com/)
The PP is shaping up to be a landmark consumer computer much in the tradition of the 2600, C64, Amiga and currently the Z
Maybe even the best yet???
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Don't talk to me about Atari. COMMODORE FOR EVER! |flies the boing-ball flag|
The PPZ is gonna be a landmark because it's the first Commercially available TuxPhone. XD
It's also the most powerful PDA design on the planet as far as I know. . . Some have faster processors, but there aren;t many with DDR266, 3G, Videoout. etc.
The Zydas there looks good as a backup, but remember we're going for 802.11G. . . Surely any USB chipset used in a desktop lincompatible USBwifi card works?????
The TI ACX100 works. . is that G?
Prism54?
I'm still surprised it took me so long to undestand how the phone system worked. I mean you can see it on the Frakking Universal pages! The phone has it's own ROM, it's own flash, and it's own memory!
And if you look at the website for the chip, it even TELLS you how it works!
I'm a moron. Officially. But now I've worked it out, lets get busy! I'll email Freescale to ask about their 3G stack at somepoint tomorrow.
Blitz, when you read this, email me your thoughts on the 3G computer, ok?
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I think if I wanted to use the Z for serious gaming, I'd be happy, nay, prefer to plug in a USB game controller, or even have it as part of an expansion jacket/dock with extra battery... you could also have small speakers in the dock, kind of halfway towards the deskpenguin?
I wouldn't want to be hammering the keyboard for hours, especially the one or two keys that tend to get used for all games - the device is too precious to take a pounding!
Sudden flash of realisation: DON'T FORGET VIBRATING ALERT for calendars/PIM... this would also be useful for games as a rumble mode!
The desk penguin could be a complimentary device - sort of thin client with graphics on steroids, don't reproduce the hardware... remember the pp is going to have enough power to run X11 properly, so no need to have it drive an external display at v hires, just 768p for hdtv?
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Exactly, If you want to game the PP, you either put up with the keyboard (I do fine on my 5600!) Or you plug in a controller. With USB host and an XBOX or good PC controller, you have sevaral thousand buttons and vibration.
Don;t worry, we are REMEMBERING the vibrator. Come on! When was the last time you bought a new phone without one? XP
The PPZ external display looks to be 800x600.
My idea behind the DPZ (Which I'm starting to Rue) Was basically a dual processor. . . Well, It was a wireless souped up version of the PPZ, which could run all the apps and view the files on a larger screen, while accessing the cool stuff on the PPZ (Modems, bluetooth GPS, etc) and applying the talents of a better res screen (1280x1024) through a deicated Graphics chip instead of the onboard iMX. Basically, the files would be binary compatible, but run either slightly faster, or with multitasking support (Depending on the apps. Multitask quake? The point is?)
The 5500 can run X properly!
The general idea was like having a Big Brother to the PPZ which could run the same apps better in a desktop environment (For when you don't want to be hunched over your lap.) Like an AROS palmpilot and an AROS A4000T-60
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I still definately want 2 shoulder buttons, 4 buttons would be even better (2 L, 2R) if there is enough depth.to the pp to accomodate it. If it does have 4 shoulder buttons, L2 and R2 can provide FFWD and RWD buttons in music playing mode and PSX emulation is even better!
It's looking like the open source BeOS clone Haiku is coming near to a stable release now, I'd love to see this ported to ARM- might be a good OS for the PP in a couple of years?
I know you can get OpenBSD for the Z but what about NetBSD? Maybe we'll see Solaris for ARM soon?
We need to petition Distrowatch to cover OZ, OE, pdaXrom, Cacko, Hentages etc!
Ferret S.-
As a fellow C= devotee myself, I must inform you you cannot knock Atari AT ALL because:
* Jay Miner, main dude behind the Amiga, also created the Atari Lynx
* Atari were offered the Amiga off Jay Miner before Commodore
* C64 and Amiga nicked the Atari joystick port
* Nolan Bushnell, Space Invaders, 2600, Paperboy, Gauntlet, Pit Fighter, Hard Drivin'...
Face it, the main reason home computers are so popular is that everybody wanted to play pong and space invaders at home!
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mmm, sholder buttons would be nice. alot of people would like psx emulation (including me, i want FF7) so maxing the layout close to a PS controller may be worth taking into consideration (but might have to drop one anolog pad, how many games use 2?, thogh virtual on at the arcades was great with its 2 joystick setup) or you can just get a ps3 controller with bluetooth
i personally dont use fwd and rewind but you can use the buttons for whatever you feel like, how many buttons and where we put them is the issue
i think if we went the sidkick format we wouldnt have the sliding screen as i always use my Z in clamshell mode to protect the screen
vibro alert is somthing that i will not drop as i use it instead of ringtones
ACX100 is B the ACX110 ro ACX111 is 802.11G, personally i like ralink as they seem to be fairly open source friendly with their wifi stuff so i am leaning towards them but the zydas stuff is a close second, it depends on what we can source and which has better driver support. hopefully without binary blobs
speacking of HDTV i found an all in one chip that even does the encryption part with no software required so that means we get digital DVI and hdmi, no analog (sorry) but i might be able to hack somthing together for those who need analog compatibility (breackout bok or somthing)
im still in two minds about the laptop (and desktop) version, do i make them a docking station that provides power, a larger screen and some other misc goodness (usb hub and usb ata drive) or make a diffrent version of the board that can be used in a laptop form factor (a small one) that dosent need the PP in any way but can use the PP as a 3G modem and touchpad as well as some other stuff.
there will be a docking station for it to charge and provide breackouts for the sound and screen + usb so you dont have to plug it all in when you get home.
as for the SK form factor, try gripping the Z and crossing your fingers over, you find they overlap alot, now that is very good on my Z with 2.6 as i dont have sticky shift and i dont use capslock because its 2 button presses (and no sticky Fn) but if they are sticky then you dont really need them to overlap that much, i find that the way i grip the device leaves alot of area between my hands and the case where i could stick a bit more cassing
Hold is a given
dual proc if posible would share the DDR bus (can anyone say performance hit), might mention that there is a slicht problem with the blades, how to get them to talk to each other, im thinking usb ethernet unless i can fing somthing with a higher speed
The more I thought about the PDA sliding into the case of the laptop, the less I liked it. When they can communicate wirelessly at 54mbps anyway, it seems kinda a waste of time. Better to use the Laptop almost-separately, but do a wireless resource share (Via Samba and X11?) to access the files and hardware on the pocketpenguin.
why not usb as its faster and you can also charge from it, the good thing about a dock in the laptop is that you then dont have the PP dangling around, it all depends on wether the laptop gets a cpu of its own or not
cost of production goes down with higher densities but the time i spend on it can go up exponentially
actually in its original Z form i was going to have 2 scroll wheels one for volume and one for next/prev track, alot of disceions come down to the form factor ill list the advantages of each below and leave it to you guys to battle it out (thogh i seem to be the only one to like the SK form factor but i guess its because so for im the only one who has to design the PCB)
CONCENTRATE ON THE BATTERY LIFE (ommmmmmm smile.gif
this is a non issue as everything has the ability to turn itself off and enter low power mode, its you usage patterns not the hardware that will detirmine current draw, if you dont turn off wifi there is nothing i can do about that. anyway everything except wifi is very power efficent
one thing i do want to do is put an 8 bit micro between the trackball and one or two other components to help the PP stay in low power mode for longer, anything that needs to be polled will be given to the 8 bitter so the main cpu can stay in suspend with the uC waking the cpu up when needed
add on graphics cards are very hard to do as this thing has no pci bus and there is no real embedded standard, if you can find me a chip i will do it no problems just find one quickly
the baseband issue is a huge one, forget qualcomm as i rank them as linux hostile, plus the chip you link to is an all in one chip not really designed for having other cpus
i have seen SPI at up to 25Mbps
the sound chip needs more research, that chip isnt a 100% solution, its mainly for the headphone sockets only, we may need another chip (like the power managment chip mentiond eairlier) but we will see once i get the wiki and do some calcs on form factor and bouard space
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Whoa. Last time I looked at do it yourself stuff here it was about tom61's px1 based stuff. This is getting serious. If soemthing along the lines of the last few days of posts gets built, I'd be more than happy to dump sharp for my next handheld
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Heh, that's the point. There's no such THING as a 3G modem/phoneforembedded PDA's.
Basically, how they work is an all in one chip with it's own memory/Flash and RF subsystem.
This chip has it's own ROM installed on it (This is EXACTLY how the Universal works, if you read the spec sheets of the Qualcomm chip used) which is what's known as the "Phone ROM", which is connected to the Serial Bus of the processor, and the ROM runs all the stacks etc, emulating a Serial Modem for the CPU.
The Freescale "All-in-one" chip will basically be our phone, running the phone rom. (DB, I know you got all this, just for everyone else)
I'm looking up info on Freescales Linux 3G stacks, as well as the rest. . .
And to be fair, I just find the SK design annoying to use. Maybe it's a me thing, maybe it's not. I just think that we should keep the Z compact. It's a computer, not a PSP, hence why there's a keyboard on it. On thing I WAS thinking about, was a clip on controller pack for it, lokie on the old GameBoy's? Basically a USB controller designed to fit around the outside of the Z and provide the extra functions. Currently, I see no reason for more than one pair of shoulder buttons and a scroll-wheel, as well as for adding analogue sticks etc. The more we make this a games console, the less we make it a PDA. If we do end up off-licensing the motherboard design to GP2X, or whatever, then they can build a more games-consoley version. As a computer goes, I think Clamshell design is best, and the features that we'd already agreed on were more reasonable. To reiterate, so everyone's clear?
1xCPU imx31
512mb DDR
1x Internal CF ATA
2x SDIO
1x EXT graphics of some description
1xEXT USB host
1xIRDA
1xRS232
1xRS232-JTAG
3G quadband Phone/modem (Connected to Audio)
Bluetooth (Connected to Audio)
802.11G
Accelerometer (3D)
backlit Keypad
Direction-PAD
Trackball
Clamshell design (Other still in consideration, but I for one hate it. XD)
Vibrator
Stereo speakers on screen panel
VOIP camera
Transflexive VGA touchscreen
Mini-Serial 4 Bit TFT for quick status review (On bottom of case)
Camcorder battery or Zaurus battery, 1800mAh
Audio (L/R) and Scroll controls on side of case
5.1 or Digital out via strange connector system
Biometric Scanner in form of Swipe finger bar
16MB NAND flash holding Bootloader, Initial Kernel, and Security code
CPLD for developer add ons, with free pins on board for wiring to add-on components. (With Some form of clip-in card connector? For adding new features A1200 style, without soldering?)
Carbon Fibre Black Case, with small amounts of gold trim and laser engraved logos on Screen section Rear.
Open Source OS running from internal ATA CF, with optional security features,
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I just find the SK design annoying to use. Maybe it's a me thing, maybe it's not. I just think that we should keep the Z compact.
Definately. Keep the size as small as it needs to be.
It's a computer, not a PSP, hence why there's a keyboard on it. On thing I WAS thinking about, was a clip on controller pack for it, lokie on the old GameBoy's? Basically a USB controller designed to fit around the outside of the Z and provide the extra functions.
Good idea!
Currently, I see no reason for more than one pair of shoulder buttons and a scroll-wheel, as well as for adding analogue sticks etc.
Am not so sure about one one scroll-wheel. A scroll-wheel would be useful when the PDA is either configurations, when in clam mode a scroll on the short edge (rhs?) could be used to scroll up/down, when in book form (ie closed with screen upmost) one would be useful on the long edge. Do they take up so much room? Could the finger print slit scanner work as a slider?
J.
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the sound chip needs more research
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=133967\")
did a bit of googling, found various ideas:
[a href=\"http://www.audiodesignline.com/]http://www.audiodesignline.com/[/url]
http://www.analog.com/en/app/0,3174,996%255F1163,00.html (http://www.analog.com/en/app/0,3174,996%255F1163,00.html)
http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT4294729815.html (http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT4294729815.html)
http://www.musicdsp.org/phpWiki/index.php/...271847d474cb355 (http://www.musicdsp.org/phpWiki/index.php/MusicDspFaqs?PHPSESSID=8e784e81779a8e401271847d474cb355)
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it. On thing I WAS thinking about, was a clip on controller pack for it, lokie on the old GameBoy's? Basically a USB controller designed to fit around the outside of the Z and provide the extra functions. [div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
erm, I already suggested that; but have an extended battery pack too; maybe this could be a combined docking+charging station/battery pack/keyboard wotsit?
it's all very well having lots of peripherals and accessories, but then you lose the advantage of the Z being portable because you need a rucksack to carry it all!
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Wow,
I'm really thrilled to see/build the outcome of this thread.
Is there any brave soul who could guess a launch date ? I need to plan my finances to be first on the line to get one!
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with all my extra usb stuff i would say my Z is currently at the non portable stage (hell i have a dvd burner for it) currently it has its own backpack
thanks for the sound links, this isnt the only project i am working on but it is the most time consuming, and chip research takes alot of time , i am working on rack mounting my 2 nslu's so the next couple of days will be reply only with no actual research but i should have the wiki up in a couple of hours, check my sig for that, the other project i am working on as a smart UPS that i am bieng given free hardware to implement (thanks to gensi and freescale ), for those intrested see http://projects.ppczone.org/projects.php?project=197 (http://projects.ppczone.org/projects.php?project=197) i should be updating it within a couple of days
this thread is seeing alot of action and is gaining on the bluetooth thread at an incredible rate, i cant belive its getting this much peer review thoght i would apreciate more people commenting on this thing
finger print reader could work as a slider with software as its a 1D camera (or mabey 2D where one dimension is about 4 to 8 pixels by 64 pixels)
i forgot to mention the SK advatages:
more board space: those tracballs eat up alot of depth and i have to cut some of the bourd up just to fit it in
acsess to d-pad and tracball when screen is closed: this means that we need less buttons on the outside
Diffrent keyboard layout: moiving the trackball and the dpads to the side of the kepad means that we can have more/larger buttons
keep in mind that im not talking about a pure SK design, i just want to borrow the bits at the side and the screen sitting flush with the body as well as the controls on the potrusions it does make the L/R trigger buttons eaiser to acsess and also allows more room on the back as we all seem to be forgetting that the space around the sides of the case is at a premium everywhere except on the frount, i do like the way the screen slides however opening like a clamshell is better, espicially if we use a hinge like the cxx00 series
we still have to work out where the trackball and dpad are going, top of the keyboard or bottom, i like the top as it gives stability when using the trackball but you get less when typing which in my opinoin is alright as you dont need the stability as much when typing compared to gaiming (which is the main use of the trackball and dpad
also we currently have no deffinition of small, when i have been talking to ferret-simpson he has been refering to the size of the 5500 whereas i have been refering to the size of the c3000, are these the benchmark for a normal and aceptable size or do we want smaller, or larger.
i was hopping to use a smaller boarder around the screen than is currently on the c3000 (ie get rid of the black bars) the direct side effect of this is that it instantly makes the design more sk like due to the potrusions past the side of the lcd screen, even if we use a 4" lcd screen, we could however put speakers there instead
we really need pics up of prposed designs, wust work on the wiki now
J out
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launch date is set to asap
it should be before the end of this year but dont put it down in your calender yet
i am working on 1 or 2 other projects so at the moment my time is split between them (see last post) however i am working on these projects full time as i am taking a long overdue holiday for a couple of months
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What about a additional design for subnotebook (without all those dpads/joysticks/gaming nonsense) with a 6" or 8" screen reusing the same board?
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Thats basically the laptop docking station, im putting that on hold till we have more details or we are closer to a finished product
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see sig for website, not sure if its working but it should take you to the news site while i set up the wiki, have fun and tell me if its not working
there wont be nows on it till 2300 my time (in half an hour)
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also we currently have no deffinition of small, when i have been talking to ferret-simpson he has been refering to the size of the 5500 whereas i have been refering to the size of the c3000, are these the benchmark for a normal and aceptable size or do we want smaller, or larger.
I reckon the 6000 is about the upper limit of PDA, bigger than that and it's really an ultraportable laptop
i was hopping to use a smaller boarder around the screen than is currently on the c3000 (ie get rid of the black bars) the direct side effect of this is that it instantly makes the design more sk like due to the potrusions past the side of the lcd screen, even if we use a 4" lcd screen, we could however put speakers there instead
we really need pics up of prposed designs, wust work on the wiki now
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133997\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
the 700-860 series and '000 series do waste space round the screen; but this could be used for wifi & bluetooth aerials as well as shortcut buttons.
google's sketchup seems like a nice 3D scribbling program
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Ok the news link is broken (i can add but not display items) but the wiki is up, modify to your hearts content
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Having the speakers on the front side of the screen panel would be useless. With them here, the ringing volume (GSM) is seriously reduced, and unless you've got one of the watches DB and I are researching vibrating on your wrist, this could prove problematic in terms of hearing it go off. (I often leave mine on my desk, or in a hung-up coat pocket)
Stability? Eh? It's a HANDHELD! It's not meant to be used on a desk!
I was just doing a bit of miming with my hands, and to move the Tball and D-Pad to either a wider edge or top corners causes problems, because the natural position of the thumbs is quite far away from the index fingertips - Which would need to be just resting on the L/R buttons in natural position. A curved edge design like the Universal seems the most natural form, with the directional gear front edge, just inside the rectangular section. I'd also vote the shape of the curves closer to a full semicircle.
When in Clamshell mode, you have the trackball, D-Pad, and keyboard available for navigation. These aren't available in portrait mode, hence why the scroll wheel is important in this section. Also, one of the curved "SpaceWaste" sections of the screen will contain the VGA+ Video Conferencing camera, connected to the internal correction bus of the iMX.
Another note to DB, If it would be possible to find a camera with a regular resolution, such as 640x640 or 1024x1024, We could configure it to be used in either mode at full res by rotating the image 90', even if just in software. Also, the secondary screen on the bottom of the case (Serial based, next to the battery cover.) could be used as a low res viewfinder for the camera to take snapshots, with the system locked in portrait mode, since the camera would then be on the other side of the body from the mini-tft.
On the note of the PPZ becoming unportable with aditional hardware. . . Compare it with the current Generation Zaurus. We've already eliminated the need to carry separate Bluetooth and Wifi gear, a 3G mobile phone, a Digital Camera, a mouse, A CF XGA card or USB Graphics card, you can have double the internal SD storage - With the open source drivers that aren't limited by unknown ASIC's, we can have 2x4GB = 8GB of SD capacity, using similar drivers to those used on the Universal, not to mention a faster ATA based CF card access than the old standard used in the C4X
Considering how much we've cut down what you need to carry as it is, needing to carry an external game controller for the sake of ultraserious gaming is hardly a problem. If you're REALLY that bothered, you can just leave it on there!
And 5600, not 55. It's bigger, because of an extended battery compartment. I've been looking at something essentially that same size. (It's the same depth as DB's clamshell, 1cm longer, and 1cm thinner.)
heh, saying that this thing will need a rucksack suggests that you're currently carrying your Zaurus in an Articulated Lorry.
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Parts!!!
On that Mouser site I found for the Watch.
http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail...tualkey53710000 (http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=ACH-04-08-05virtualkey53710000)
3 axis PCB accelerometer.
They also have a selection of speakers, although I doubt they have anything of the sequired size.
Few other odds and ends, but their parts information system is Lewd.
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can anyone say SD raid
good point about the camera, i knew there was a good reason to put it on the bottom
my pack actually contains stuff we havent integrated (10/100 ethernet, 2 battries, dvd burner, HUB) so i wont be getting rid of that any time soon but aleast i can standardise on the one cable plus i can dump my phone
at least making calls will be as easy as echo +AT-CALL042310889 >echo /dev/ttyS0 or for people i have in my adress book +AT-CALL`grep DaBlitz ~/adressbook | cut -f 2` >echo /dev/ttyS0
we still need pictures of casing, anyone? i dont care if its done in MSpaint but we need to get an idea as text conveys only so much
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right, I'll get a couple of JPEG's. My college deleted all the decent image and 3D software, but I'll try and get SOMETHING done.
And no, Camera NOT on the bottom.
Camera on the screen, so it works for VOIP and then in slate mode. . . use the Aux-Screen (On the bottom of the case) as a low-res viewfinder for taking pictures
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I was caught up in the festivities yesterday (it was happy explosion, err, Independence Day, here in the US), otherwise I would've put together a prototype earlier.
Looking about the thread, many keep putting in design suggestions simular to the Tapwave Zodiac, so, I decided to make that the base for a quicky prototype:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom61/tags/pocketpenguin/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom61/tags/pocketpenguin/)
That's with a 3.7" display, so you can get a sense of scale. The control layout is obviously not exactly what has been described so far, but you can see from the default Zodiac layout that you can have a decent gaming controls to the side without adding too much width. I'm guessing that the detractors of the side controls were of the mind that the controls would be almost as big as home game console controller, which isn't the case.
I'll get onto making a better prototype, that better illustrates my thoughts and your ideas from this thread.
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On reviewing the proposed specs I saw "camcorder battery or zaurus battery" as a prospective end user, I beg you to lean towards using a camera or camcorder battery that fits a well known camera or cameras (preferably as many different models as possible) with known, extant 3rd party manufacturers and distributors. Battery availability into the future and across geographic regions is a biggie, and really does deserve careful thought. Personally I'd be happy swapping AA's, as they are readily available, and can be had as rechargeables for comparatively little $$. I realize AA's won't be the solution, but you get the idea?
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Do you know of any common battery sizes that fitacross a wide range of models
i was planning to use thu Z's battries as they are almost custom designed for what we want
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What yau did with the zodiac is what i am talking about with the SK design, i like it as it works for many things
thanks for the photos, i hope to have some up soon. do you mind if i attach them to the wiki or do you prefer a link to them?
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Right, College network (Media Studies eMacs) are refusing me access to flikr, so I'll have a look when I get back to civilisation. (The RATT.)
The mention of Zaurus batteries was a simple note of it not having been decided yet.
I have a feeling that we'll find that Camcorder batteries are more likely to stay in production than old Z batteries are.
If Sharp develop a new zaurus that's a serious jump from current specifications, then it'll need more power. (Although with the Xscale lines being sold/dropped, I'm wondering what processor they'll be using. . Perhaps they'll follow suit from us with the freescale, which would also cut build price and dev costs? Or maybe go Samsung?) Since it's most likely to access CDMA or similar if it uses any wireless communication standard. . . Might also have bluetooth support, for some of Japans new trend in PUN (Personal Ubiquitous Network) gadgets.
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Right, College network (Media Studies eMacs) are refusing me access to flikr, so I'll have a look when I get back to civilisation. (The RATT.)
can't you borrow an open proxy to do this?
I have a feeling that we'll find that Camcorder batteries are more likely to stay in production than old Z batteries are.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134117\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
yes.. we 6000 owners would certainly agree with you on that. The only snag is that camcorder batteries are quite chunky... how about some of the relatively slim still digicam batteries - the wife's Ixus750 has quite a nice battery which is charged externally (so much better to have two batteries and swap them), and there's lots of 3rd party stuff for digicam batteries etc. Mobile phone batteries tend to be a moving target, so might not be as good.
have you considered a "splashpower" recharging system?
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mabey on the slashpower thing, its a no brainer to add (just a coil of wire)
battries are a large issue. i have a couple of ideasbut none of them are ideal. but we need to decide on the case and fit the battries to that as it gives me an idea about board space
i was hoping the pcb was more independent from the case than this but this dose not seem to be the case (no pun intended)
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mabey on the slashpower thing, its a no brainer to add (just a coil of wire)
battries are a large issue. i have a couple of ideasbut none of them are ideal. but we need to decide on the case and fit the battries to that as it gives me an idea about board space
i was hoping the pcb was more independent from the case than this but this dose not seem to be the case (no pun intended)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134126\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
What is there to choose about the battery?
1) capacity
2Ah seems to be about the limit for PDAs in terms of weight & size
2) technology
LiIon is common, intelligent charging circuits are commodity items; lots of shapes to choose from ideal for PDA
LiPolymer is less common, charging circuits not so common; lots of shapes to choose from ideal for PDA
NiMH are cheap as chips, easy to charge, easy to buy, AA form not ideal shape for a PDA?
3) Battery location
integral requiring screwdrivers to change (more weatherproof)
or user swappable
part of external case (like camcorder) or hidden under flap
4) for Li batteries, intelligence in battery or in the device
if in battery, makes it easier to have wide variety of batteries but more expensive batteries
5) charge only in device, charge externally, or both
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ps: amusing thought... borrow Seiko Kinetic technology, so that shaking the pockpeng charges it up... thus when overclocking during games requires the most vigorous shaking to maintain charge
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Most modern Digital Camcoders use batteries no larger than say that of the 5600.
Charging HAS to be internal, but the batteries need to be removable to deal with replacement in the future, so an external charger would be a simple add-on.
AA = VERY wrong shape. Either Digital Camcorder, or latest Zaurus is the way to go. We need at least 1800mAh in this system, because of the high-power requirements of the twin-cpu system, as one will always be active. Also, when running fully, Battery life is likely to be in the region of about an hour (With EVERYTHING on) with an 1800mAh batt, so less is most certainly NOT more.
Nah, they filtered most of the Open Proxies already.
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Ok, first review of the mockup from the Ferret.
With this design, the controls are too easy to access externally, Even with a hold switch, they're likely to be continually operated in the pocket, which will wear them down.
It's a Phone display, not an MP3 display. XP (Ok Ok, it's both.)
Will sketch my case design, and show you.
So basically, it's a clamshell with wings. Only other notes to make. . Where on the screen does the VOIP camera go? If the second TFT and the main TFT are on the same screen, since the second TFT is recessed and covered, isn't it going to be really thick? And with the Camera and second screen on the same panel, how tdo you go into portrait mode and have a camera viewfinder?
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Shape-wise I want something very similar to the uni, size-wise something between the uni and a 6000 is what I'd expect we're looking at. I'd want those shoulder buttons to be comfortable if they're going on so we might have make it a bit more elliptical than the uni?
Its probably the harder design for DB to implement but I much prefer the clamshell PDA design over the very 'phoney SK3 style. I don't want crumbs and residue in my balls crack
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I have come across several digital cameras which use batteries with the same dimensions, voltage, and mAh as the EA-BL08/11, the unfortunate difference being that the terminals are reversed. Here is an example I just dug up with a quick googling: link (http://www.interbatteries.com/product_info.php/cPath/388_401/products_id/1824)
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That's fine!
After all, this is a new mobo, I'm sure DB can find the resources to flip the pins on the mobo batt. connector! GOOD WORK! XD
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What yau did with the zodiac is what i am talking about with the SK design, i like it as it works for many things
thanks for the photos, i hope to have some up soon. do you mind if i attach them to the wiki or do you prefer a link to them?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134087\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Go ahead and post them to the wiki, I just used flickr because they automatically resize the images.
Did we ever decide concretely where the camera or cameras were going?
I believe Da_Blitz first suggestion was to have it just on the back, which would work good, as you could use one of the shoulder buttons as take picture, and another for video recording (like my camera has). There was a suggestion of a swivelling camera, which would work for both video conferencing and picture taking, but where to put it? Also, there was the suggestion of using a 640x480 camera on USB on the front screen, then a 2MPixel on the back, but that would mean two cameras, and added expense (plenty of bandwidth left after 802.11g on a internal 480Mbps USB2, so that argument isn't valid.) Then the rather odd suggestion of haivng a 2Mpixel camera next to the main screen, for video conferencing, then rotating the screen up and around for picture taking, which I don't like as I've dropped cameras too many times to be confortable having the main screen so exposed during picture taking.
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the question is, where do i get these battries and how large (dimensions) are they?
it may seem simple but you have to remeber that its all going in a small package and i have to work the PCB around it.
until i can find a source for all the parts i cant go any futher. when i have them the work should get done quite quickly
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Actually i thoght we were haveing the camera on the screen pointing at the user with the screen on the bottom acting as a view finder
as far as i know no ones mentioned putting the camera on the usb bus as we have a built in data port with image processing. there may have been refrences to a webcam but nothing more than that.. putting the camera in the hinge makes it alot easier and allows us to use better optics as we can have a longer "barrel" (not sure of the correct term). whereas with the camera in the screen we are limited by the fact that i want to keep that as thin as posible
the other option is to put it inside the silver plastic hinge (on the c3000) on the right or left and have it swivel so that you can keep the screen closed and still use the bottom as a view finder. the cool thing about this is you can then open the main screen and rotate the camera so it is pointic to the bak of the device and tilt the screen so it looks like a normal video camera, just a bit harder to hold
those battries look good. ill have to see if they are "smart" or not. its going to be dificult if we dont want to be tied to the one vendor but ill see if i can pull off a neat trick with the electricals to make it a bit more flexible
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Amiga 1000 - Mainly designed by Jay Miner
PocketPenguin 0 - Mainly designed by Jay Coals (Coles)
Two machines linked by the Zaurus because the SL Z almost ran AmigaOS instead of Linux!
Strange eh?
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very
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And if someone else takes the bounty, or I learn to code, then the PocketPenguin WILL run AmigaOS, in the form of AROS: Currently needing developers to port it to ARM Linux Hosted. And then afterwards, to ARM native.
On the screen hinge is also a good idea, but will mean that VOIP can only be used in Slate mode. . . (When the PP is open, it'll need to be at 30' - 45' from the keyboard, when closed, 90'.)
I don't think having perfect optics is too much of a worry, the average camera in a modern mobile phone is slim enough to go into our screen panel, and the 2Mp cameras take really quite good images. . . Any higher a resolution and our video-in bus won't be able to take it at a good FPS anyway. My normal digital camera is 2Mp, so if anyone needs more, just buy a DSLR. XP
I wish I had a universal to do a mockup the same way Tom did, but I don't so I might make a cardboard model in the next week or so.
How's work on the keyboard coming Stamp?
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Looks cool I'd be interested in something like this.
Regarding the screen size - is the 4" a diagonal or horizontal measure? I find the Zaurus screen (C750) too small (physically rather than in resolution terms) to be useful while the Nokia 770 is great (as was the Psion 5(mx)).
I'd also vote for not using Zaurus batteries - mainly because they seem to be hard (and expensive) to get hold of.
BTW Is the wiki down atm?
Si
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If we had a device like a Nokia 770, it would be useless to everyone else. The system is a POCkETPenguin(Zero). If we started to increase the size with a large screen, we'd hit the problem that the system no longer fits in a pocket and would have to be renamed.
The Motherboard set is designed so it should be technically useable as part of a different device (We may need to make a second Laptop-Size Keyboard Panel available so that people can just swap the top board over to put it in a larger case design) Only problem is, you'll need to build your case to support the Motherboards, rather than doing it the other way around as we are doing in initial development. You'd also need to relocate the three Aerials (Wifi, Bluetooth, Phone) to different places in all probability. That's not hard though.
If you really want to, you could have your own case made, and just buy a motherboard set to include in your own device with a larger form factor, to which you could add a larger screen (This is the only place i can see you hitting problems electrically) with a higher res, a 2.5" hard Disk on the ATA port, a nice big 5200mAh battery that would keep the PDA running for huge amounts of time.
I find the 1" square screen in my wristwatch perfectly useable. If you need a larger screen, I think you should ask yourself which is more hassle. Scratchbuilding a SlatePenguinZero, (XP) or getting contacts.
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I can actually see . What do you use the 1" square for?
Certainly web browsing, watching videos and using spreadsheets/graphing programmes benefits from a larger screen.
I understand your concerns about a pocketable device, it's just that there's a balance to be struck between being so small that it's not really very useful, no matter how high the resolution, and so large that you leave it behind because it's inconvenient. From my point of view, the Nokia is a little too large, and the Zaurus a little too small.
Then again, this may just be my personal preference - I can't stand working on laptops as I find their screens far too claustrophobic (too small and not enough of them) compared to the 2 monitors I have attached to my PC.
Si
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Just fixed the settings on the wiki: it was a foot meets cable problem that went unoticed for awhile
i agree, after using 2 19" screens for awhile, going back to 1 screen is not fun
the 4" is a diagonal mesurement. if you need a larger screen then thats what the video out is for
at the moment i am looking into a2dp supoort for the Z, i belive its at a workable state now. just testing to make sure (can finally say goodbuy to that dongle) after thats done and i have the server migrated its time to look at the chipsets used and needed in more detail and pouring over datasheets (its what i live for) so expect to hear some things soon
btw the news page is still broken and i wont try and fix it till after the migrations, however the permisions on the website are now working properly so i can password protect sites if needed (like my own profile). if i get board somtime this week ill ad more info and do a bit of a reshufflue
did i mention i found a couple of HDMI chips that dont need drivers? (honstly cant remeber)
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I actually found the Newton screen size to be about perfect. I just wish it had a better resolution! I don't carry my Z in a pocket anyway. I've killed more pda's than I'd like to count doing that. I don't mind having a "utility belt" look with a pouch. I really liked the 6000 screen size, just a tad bigger than my 3100. I've not read over the whole thread in a while, is the 6000 size what you guys are shooting for?
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i dont belive we have finalised the size in yet. but so far its been 5500/c3000 size.
must get a summary of this thread up (anyone have anyidea how many words have been written so far)
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Yes, a 4@ screen is the same size as the 6000. . That's what we're trying to get, basically a 6000 screen. I keep my PDA's in my pockets all the time, they're fine. You didn't take the flip up cover off did you?
As far as otherwise casing goes, when I'm not playing music, the Z stays in an Otterbox Armor2600. Yeah. Big, beefy, crushproof, waterproof, floating. When I get a PP, Mine'll probably stay in that box almost 24/7, and I'll play music over Bluetooth. After all, my only reason for not keeping the Z in a box all the time I'm not typing, is that I can't get the cables out.
You can hardly say that a Z screen is too small to be useless. I haven't turned my desktop on for a week, just been using my 5600.
I think that the 4" 640x480 is the way to go with Currentgen devices. Until AR systems are technologically and socially viable, trying to increase the size causes problems.
On a 1" screen? I read books. . . Play Gameboy games. . . look at images (Sadly in B/W). . . Look at the time (It's a WATCH after all.). . . And just generally manage my life.
Chipsets. . I'm guessing you mean apart from the RXF300 for the MXC300. . . right?
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found a link on youtube (first time ive used it) that seems to show off somthing simmilar to the trackball we have in our design (link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufdyMEBYNCc...elated&search=) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufdyMEBYNCc&mode=related&search=)) changes color and is round
i dont actually know much about the sidekick or what it has hardware wise as i have never seen one here in AUS but would anyone care to shed some lite if thats what it is or not
shows some good action shots for using the leds as visual feedback but i dont like that entire switchbalde screen desicn, i would prefer the way the Z does it (im suprised they do it that way instead af a simpiler slider design)
still like the shape but thats just me. it is intresting to note where they put things such as the usb ports. it all seems to be very well thoght out in terms of placment which brings up a couple of erginomic and racticle issues we will have to think about
ie whats its main use
do we put headone sockets on the side (anoying while gaming but more than tolerable) or on the back (pocket nightmare for those of you with corded headphones
placment of all the ports and so on
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I'm going to love running GPE Sysinfo on this and getting a benchmark.
But then, I'm also going to love playing ZPSX on this, too.
DS3 controller over the USB port, Final Fantasy 4,5,6,7,8,9.
OH yeah. That'll be fun.
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Yes, a 4@ screen is the same size as the 6000. . That's what we're trying to get, basically a 6000 screen. I keep my PDA's in my pockets all the time, they're fine. You didn't take the flip up cover off did you?
No, but they were pocket pc's without the hard screen cover, though one was an older Sharp clamshell that I carried in my cargo pocket of my bdu's. All of them got broken screens, either by getting flexed or banged into. That's why I started using the pouches. They ride up higher on my body and the handhelds stay positioned screen in. If anything gets banged into it's going to be the back/bottom. Hopefully the one you guys are talking about making will end up being made of metal and not some type of composite. I can fix dents, once a composite cracks though, it's done.
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Can't fix a dent when it shortcircuits the mobo.
Carbonfibre is lighter, stronger, and less likely to break than metal. Agreed, it's easier to fix metal, for the same reason that it's easier to dent it.
My Zaurus is made of plastic, and has been fine. Same goes for my mobile phones, my PDAwatch, my SD/SMC/MS cards, spare batteries, cad readers. What else do YOU keep in your pockets to break the things?
This is hardly going o be a small PDA. 4" screen (Yes, fixed my keyboard mapping) quite thick, highly dense, etc etc, we have to cut corners somewhere if we're going to be able to lift the thing without three months weight traning. And that's not an exagerreation, I mean lift it and hold it continuously at an angle for a long period of time. I can do that with my 5600, but I wouldn't be able to if it was metal cased.
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Can't fix a dent when it shortcircuits the mobo.
Carbonfibre is lighter, stronger, and less likely to break than metal. Agreed, it's easier to fix metal, for the same reason that it's easier to dent it.
My Zaurus is made of plastic, and has been fine. Same goes for my mobile phones, my PDAwatch, my SD/SMC/MS cards, spare batteries, cad readers. What else do YOU keep in your pockets to break the things?
This is hardly going o be a small PDA. 4" screen (Yes, fixed my keyboard mapping) quite thick, highly dense, etc etc, we have to cut corners somewhere if we're going to be able to lift the thing without three months weight traning. And that's not an exagerreation, I mean lift it and hold it continuously at an angle for a long period of time. I can do that with my 5600, but I wouldn't be able to if it was metal cased.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I work with aluminum laptops everyday. They get banged up dented, scratched, and dropped on a regular basis. Never had one short the logic board. They have a plastic film inside to prevent that. I think it would be easier and cheaper to go with metal. It would also help get rid of heat better. With all the doodads you guys are talking about cramming in there you're going to need the heatsink.
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Can't fix a dent when it shortcircuits the mobo.
Carbonfibre is lighter, stronger, and less likely to break than metal. Agreed, it's easier to fix metal, for the same reason that it's easier to dent it.
My Zaurus is made of plastic, and has been fine. Same goes for my mobile phones, my PDAwatch, my SD/SMC/MS cards, spare batteries, cad readers. What else do YOU keep in your pockets to break the things?
This is hardly going o be a small PDA. 4" screen (Yes, fixed my keyboard mapping) quite thick, highly dense, etc etc, we have to cut corners somewhere if we're going to be able to lift the thing without three months weight traning. And that's not an exagerreation, I mean lift it and hold it continuously at an angle for a long period of time. I can do that with my 5600, but I wouldn't be able to if it was metal cased.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I work with aluminum laptops everyday. They get banged up dented, scratched, and dropped on a regular basis. Never had one short the logic board. They have a plastic film inside to prevent that. I think it would be easier and cheaper to go with metal. It would also help get rid of heat better. With all the doodads you guys are talking about cramming in there you're going to need the heatsink.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134717\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
very good idea.
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Still the weight problem. . .
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Still the weight problem. . .
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134731\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
What weight problem? I like my portable electronics to be somewhat heavy. Besides, aluminium isn't that heavy.
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Still the weight problem. . .
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134731\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
is an aluminum case actually noticeably heavier than a composit one?
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I think it would be easier and cheaper to go with metal. It would also help get rid of heat better. With all the doodads you guys are talking about cramming in there you're going to need the heatsink.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134717\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
no, cooling won't be an issue at all - mind you, carrying round the tank of liquid nitrogen to cool the processor down so's we can overclock it to play best quality HDTV 1080p will be a bit of a nuisance
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What weight problem? I like my portable electronics to be somewhat heavy. Besides, aluminium isn't that heavy.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
we'll make the case airtight and fill with Helium to make it lighter for the wimps, shall we?
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The Palm T3 has a metal case ... Titanium .... no, magnesium composite or something. Very light and solid. And yes, it dented when I dropped it once! ... but its better compared with another PDA that chipped at the edge when I dropped it!
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What weight problem? I like my portable electronics to be somewhat heavy. Besides, aluminium isn't that heavy.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
we'll make the case airtight and fill with Helium to make it lighter for the wimps, shall we?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134750\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Use liquid He, then you don't have to worry about the cooling problem either. I just don't want to be anywhere near it when it decides to rupture the case.
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so we have agreed on liquid colling, no probs
looking at my Z's case i can see the aluminium on the top has taken some hard knocks.
i am tending towards the use of carbon fiber as its easier to work with. aluminium requires tools that for what we are doing would be expensive (i am talking aircraft grade aluminium here)
i have pretty much ruled out metal due to the amount of effort and cost involved. depending on the metal me mould have to get it coated as well as cast which i see as being expensive
after looking at a post in the c3000/1000 hardware section (the carbon fibre case post) i basically came to the conclusion that its easy enough for someone like me to de in my backyard. plus it requires no painting (you get a nice carbon fiber look) however i am aware of the damadge that can occur
if you read the link on the mentioned fourm post you can see that carbon fiber is strong on head on impacts, on side on it is no where near as strong. i feel that for in pocket use this will be fine as the resin is resistant to scratching (better than metal) and most drops to the floor end with a colision that is head on anyway
with a bit of clever construction and minipulation of the material we should be able to inrese its strength to side on colissions however what it does have is probbelly better than the plastic cases we are already using
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looking at my Z's case i can see the aluminium on the top has taken some hard knocks.
How did you get a Zaurus with aluminium in the case? Is that some special edition?
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The top (screen) of the cxxxx series is powder coated alluminium.
i droped mine from 2m onto hard concrete and all it did was compress the corner a bit and chip the corners powder coating off
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The top (screen) of the cxxxx series is powder coated alluminium.
i droped mine from 2m onto hard concrete and all it did was compress the corner a bit and chip the corners powder coating off
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=134802\")
I've done the same thing. I just popped off the top and tapped it out. Though I do blacksmithing as a hobby, so I have some metal working tools. I was also an aircraft mechanic in the air force so I have sheet metal experience as well.
Hey speaking of "metal work" check out this little movie on my site..
[a href=\"http://homepage.mac.com/barrywoods/Computers/FileSharing42.html]http://homepage.mac.com/barrywoods/Compute...eSharing42.html[/url]
It would be the drive wipe one. Just right click and download.
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The top (screen) of the cxxxx series is powder coated alluminium.
i droped mine from 2m onto hard concrete and all it did was compress the corner a bit and chip the corners powder coating off
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134802\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I recently bought a broken 6000 which had been dropped off a roof, (with the intention of salvaging components to repair my main one), and it broke the screen but the Z itself still works (usb networking), the case has dings, a cracked corner but it largely intact!
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I recently bought a broken 6000 which had been dropped off a roof, (with the intention of salvaging components to repair my main one), and it broke the screen but the Z itself still works (usb networking), the case has dings, a cracked corner but it largely intact!
its pretty extreme to drop random zaurii off roofs just to salvage parts
if yau want a secure delet option i could add an electronic voltage trigger to ignite some magnesium
intresting zip moives there i must get one of those wispy things
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I'd be tempted by Al over CFRP if you simply want durability.
CFRP spalls or delaminates inside (depending on whether it is particulate or fibre) when you strike it - this means you only get a small scuff on the outside, but loads of damage which you can't see on the inside.
At least with Al you can see the extent of the damage.
I'm also wonder about the quality of the finish you'll be able to get using CFRP without a fair bit of practice, especially on the tight radius corners.
Oh yes, carbon fibre is also expensive (though I'm not sure of the cost of a block of Al and milling time to compare).
With that said, one can only try and see how it works.
Si
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Ahoy there. Wow, this is quite a find. I've been looking high and low for information regarding designing and building PDAs. Seems like all you people have been too =) I've got designs, feature lists, hardware lists, ideas, plans, and a couple of broken pencils. This all looks very interesting.
Although, I am completely against the idea of an integrated Keyboard into the actual device. Having a keyboard as a peripheral is my idea. I'm all about practicality =P I will elaborate my ideas further when I can be bothered typing a bit more. It's 2:17 in the morning and I'm freezing cold. Wanna give me a short brief on what has already been discussed? I've seen some of the posts, but I'm not gonna read all of them =P
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wow. i haven't been here in a long time, and I come back to this...this wonderful thread.
You guys are a little further on than I was on a custom PDA before I bought my Zaurus. i was close to purchasing and assembling myself, though I didn't know about that wonderful freescale stuff you all are using.
After reading this, I sort of wish I hadn't compromised a bit and bought a C3100
Well, i still love my 3100, but this project you all are working on looks very promising. I wish I could add something to it, but you have everything I can do covered already. I am excited about the possibility of the sound you all have been discussing, too. Even being able to do one track at a time at 24/96 on a PDA that fits in my pocket would impress me greatly.
I was going to suggest using a PSP screen (used PSPs can be had relatively cheaply) if you weren't set on having touch, but it seems that ship has sailed (such a screen would fit in the existing clamshell dimensions, Sharp. Sigh. the wasted real estate there bothers me.)
Anyway, awesome work everyone. Next list of things I see that you still need to be hunted down, I'll see if I can find something.
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I was looking at laptop spares and I came across this site which has a HUGE variety of LCD panels including some of the small Sharp ones, it's probably a useful resource for part numbers etc.
http://www.impactcomputers.com/lcd-panels.html (http://www.impactcomputers.com/lcd-panels.html)
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Wanna give me a short brief on what has already been discussed? I've seen some of the posts, but I'm not gonna read all of them =P
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134853\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
well, basically, we're discussing what we want it to DO, how we want it to LOOK, what sort of material the body should be made of, what the battery will be, how much it will COST, as well as want we don't want.
if you want details, look in DaBlitz's wiki, if you want to follow our chain of thought, you'll just have to read the 19 pages or so!
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Hmm, wiki link (from bottom of Da_Blitz's posts) still doesn't work for me.
Just times out.
Si
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Hmm, wiki link (from bottom of Da_Blitz's posts) still doesn't work for me.
Just times out.
Si
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Same here.
I get the same timout when I try the OpenPDAnews link.
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Oh yes, carbon fibre is also expensive (though I'm not sure of the cost of a block of Al and milling time to compare).
With that said, one can only try and see how it works.
Si
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=134826\")
It can be built from flat pieces bolted together. Would give it that cool industrial feel. Would also make fixing and modding easier. If you drop it and really dent the side, just order the couple parts that got messed up.
Or, if you want carbon you can make carbon top and bottom panels. Kinda like this.
[a href=\"http://www.c6mfg.com/Products.html]http://www.c6mfg.com/Products.html[/url]
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Sorry about the wiki, seems i crashed my routor (the one connected to my isp anyway), dont know why but i seem to be able to do that quite easily. i would like to get a dedicated 24/7 host up but i expect that wont be for a couple of weeks
anyway down to buisness:
MiracleBlue: nice to meet you, the best way would be to read the 286 posts we have generated but i did post some vory long posts, i think you are looking at at least 60 pages printed in total there is a run down on my wiki of what is in it but not why we have decided to put such features in but i will try and answer the obvious
where posible we want you to use external usb equipment (DVB, flash disk keyboard, dvd burner )
performance is high priority
battery life is not somthing we can really do anything about (that includes incresing AND decreasing battery life, in the end it comes down to the battery)
this is a Zaurus fourm and we are all use to having a keyboard. if you have had PDA's with no keyboards up till now then you would probelly not relise just haow useful they are
2:17 isnt early in the morning, there are have been a couple of times where i have been on from 7:00 AM to 630 AM+ 2 days
extendable and hackable, that means providing a pinout for everything and documenting it as well as including a modular connector for backpacks/docking stations
i am putting in some very specific hardware that suits my needs first (sorry to say it) but i intend to inovate hence the DDR ram and the use of non intel chips . i am REALLY intrested in your ideas, i did take somee insperation from the page on handhelds and really want to hear what others want on the thing
back to casing: Aluminium is nice but CF is very easy to fiddle arund with for me, all i can see is huge costs to build Al cases on small scale. there is nothing to stop you making one, i can easily give you the dimensions when we have it designed so you can make your own. i am sure there would be others that would like an Al case. if however we had a comercial partner then it would be a somthing for me to think about. the outside CF is an intresting idea as it offers some of the advantages of both
also was that for standard Al with powder coating or Aircraft grade Al with textured finish, i need to get some real numbers for things like this but i do like the idea of a G4 style perforated alluminim case
anyway i think i should concentrate on the hardware design and leave this issue to you guys
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forgot to mention that the cxxxx series can do up to 96Khz already in OZ on 2.6
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battery life is not somthing we can really do anything about (that includes incresing AND decreasing battery life, in the end it comes down to the battery)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Hi,
This is absolutely not the case, if you are serious about producing this then please allow me to highlight how design decisions can affect the final product. None of this is intended personally so please don't take it as such.
I have followed this thread and have quite a few qualms but I will choose 1 to illustrate. You are placing down NAND flash on the NANDFC.... why? why are you placing so much and then making it useless by crippling it to 8 bits. I know you have it in your mind that it multiplexes onto the memory bus and will slow it down.
If you have a cite for this then can you please post it. I am working from the docs on the Freescale website and it is made clear that the PCMCIA/WEIM/NANDFC share pins, but it also states that the arbiter will chuck the NANDFC off the bus at the end of the transaction if a higher priority master wishes it ( and this includes all mem busses ). This means that you will not pay the penalty that you believe.
BUT this is not the most important point. Use burst NOR instead on the WEIM bus. The NAND bus tops out at 50MHz... slow... The WEIM can clock at 133, even tho it is still multiplexed you can use this to your advantage if you are clever about it and have an external DE-MUX address munger so you can interleave the 16 bit access on the half clock, this means you can use half speed ( and therefore lower power ) devices. If you want to be really cool you can use DTACK ( anyone else remember DTACK grounded? boy that takes me back! ) mode to stretch T1 to 2T and then burst at 1T using 2T access times for the flash. This will allow for a highly optimised flash interface. Although it would be a lot simpler just to use burst or sync modes.
Now to how this will improve battery life. The nature of the system use and locality of reference means that the external bus should be inactive for a large portion of the total time. It makes sense therefore to keep this time as short as possible.... so even tho the higher clock speeds will mean that there is marginally higher power useage per beat, you are keeping total accesses shorter in time so will reap the power benefit ( slightly higher power for a shorter period is better than lower power for a longer period). Also the more efficient flash interface will give you a fighting chance of XIP which Linux is coming to terms with. This will help because the SDRAM is the real power hog in the system, so you want to keep that in low power refresh as long as possible.... so a design decision made at this stage will give you a win-win on the finished product. It will be both faster and more power efficient. In fact, loading from flash will be about 5 times faster and 3 times as power efficient.
There are a few other things that can be improved upon, such as if you want to use "standard" FR4 without impedance control etc etc then I would consider buying in an external USB phone rather than placing on board ( also writing the software will be an "impossible" task ). Don't whatever you do put down an FPGA if you want it to run from batteries. Those who would want to use it will more than likely have an external board to play with anyway. Just pinout an LVDS connector, possibly using a serialiser/deserialiser on a max clocked WEIM bus. This can interface directly to any modern FPGA anyway. Anyway, enough for now I'll carry on following the thread and heckle from the sidelines occasionally
nemuri neko
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Or, if you want carbon you can make carbon top and bottom panels. Kinda like this.
That sounds like a good idea - easier to manufacture and still looks cool. But then you'd probably need an Al frame to go with it.
This will help because the SDRAM is the real power hog in the system, so you want to keep that in low power refresh as long as possible.... so a design decision made at this stage will give you a win-win on the finished product. It will be both faster and more power efficient. In fact, loading from flash will be about 5 times faster and 3 times as power efficient.
This is a concern I have too. I really don't think that more than 128MB is necessary (though it would be nice to have more of course), though I doubt I can change your minds about this. Can Linux shut down (don't refresh at all) banks of memory if it's not being used? Iirc this is what the Psions used to do to save power.
Si
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This is a concern I have too. I really don't think that more than 128MB is necessary (though it would be nice to have more of course), though I doubt I can change your minds about this. Can Linux shut down (don't refresh at all) banks of memory if it's not being used? Iirc this is what the Psions used to do to save power.
Si
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=134988\")
The Psions made a lot of use of XIP. The iMX device has a timer that will place the SDRAM in low power mode after a set time ( 64 or 128 clocks ). There is a minimal lag on the issue of the next command, but not enough to worry about. So this will be independant of the OS. Linux does have patches for XIP, but I have never used them and do not know how good/stable they are. It may take some care in the set up of the MMU, but nothing that is insurmountable.
This is quite an interesting link on the subject of linux and XIP and a proposed FS
[a href=\"http://lwn.net/Articles/182337/]http://lwn.net/Articles/182337/[/url]
NN
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and this may have something about cases:
http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/06/07/13/0113239.shtml (http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/06/07/13/0113239.shtml)
Si
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and this may have something about cases:
http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/06/07/13/0113239.shtml (http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/06/07/13/0113239.shtml)
Si
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134990\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
The case is another thing that will be very hard. Are there any industrial designers in the house? even a good mech eng would do
I have done a couple of similar designs for a couple of large multinationals, even with a large NRE budget the case design was really problematic. We even had the design house that did the Psion 5 do a case for us, still not easy. I don't think it is possible to make a custom keyboard, on that a reality check needs to be done. I think the most likely route to success would be to take an existing KB or better yet a case. But it needs to be from a device that is cheap and widely available. and about the best I can think of is the zaurus. Here the top case and KB for a zaurus is about 25 bucks, but this way none of the "extras" will be included. Making keys and doing the mech eng behind a working reliable keyboard is not easy, whilst the electronics should be easy to get working, having the electronics and case work together will take some time.
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Finally we get some experts comming out of the wood work
yes i am aware of the SD RAM power things, i guess the reason i mentioned that "dont say anything about the power" stuff is to focus the attention on other things at hand. basically when it comes down to the actual implemntation we will take care of it at the moment we are doing more than getting a rough design idea and trying to distill that to somthing we can work with
i can see that most people would not use more than 128MB of ram, the reason i would like to see 512MB is to take advantage of linux's caching mechanism and also because i can. i think i may actually have to go back on my word and reintroduce to tiers of memory as i was looking at the docs and think it might be posible to implemnt an auto detection of how much memorey is avalible in multiples of 64MB
shutting down memorey is a very nice idea and i doght that it can at the moment as there seems to be more dev work on the always plugged in idea however a simple "does this bank have data if not then turn it off" would be easy to implement however a better soulotion would be a memorey defragmenter that tries and remaps everything to the least amount of chips it can when the cpu starts to idle (an indication that going to low power mode would be a good idea). mabey we should set up a bounty for this when we are done or seed the idea to the kernel lists and see if someone bites (this could really help embedde boards)
i would love to see a Virtex 4 part in this thing but i also know how much current that think takes, therefore we would probbely be using a cpld of some sorts. HTC seems to use xilinx alot and i dont mind them (i prefer xilinx fpgas but dont care when it comes to cplds)
onto flash, I intend to use it for nothing more than booting. and for that i could still put it onto the ddr scince it will only be used for the first 3 seconds of the boot phase. i have the feeling that some others would like bigger chips on there for storage and i have no problem with that (unlike ram where every diffrent size requires diffrent register settings). i am aware of the priority of main mem over NAND. so at 50Mhz * 8 bit we get 50MB/s or connect it in 16Bit mode and get 100MB/s (theoretical) or we can go with WEIM and get 133Mhz @ 32 Bit (533MB/S) (onec again in theory) i do like the sounds of that. even if my planned usage patterns of the flash are lite
The main reason we chose the split interface was it makes booting much easier (built in support for booting that way but i havent looked at all the modes yet) and leasons learned from the Xscales, however i admit it wasent flash that was the problem in that case it was the CF which in this case still applies so that will be staying on the ATA bus. the problem was that MEM and CF were on the same bus leading to decreased performance when utilising both at once. this was shown in the betaplayer benchmarks when watching high bit rate moives on the CF card vs SD or flash. so flash ISNT the problem but because at the moment i belive we will be using NAND instead of NOR and the fact that we dont have an interface that can dump 50MB/s to flash to load the device in the first place i didnt see the need at that time.
however if there is demand for it (lets say 3 people) with valid uses/reasons then i will not hesitate in switching over providide it works with no complications
the one thing i hate about this chip is that every single device can be connected in more than one way. while powerful it means alot of work for maximum performance
i should also mention that i have been talking to the guys who run openmobilephone.org and they seem intrested in the platform as a finished product however we are trying to set up (or it has been suggested) that we set up somewhere where we can trade resoucrces and expertise. say for exeample we need someone with skills in the relevnt areas to do a critical review of the design then this is where we would post to ask people to do it
back to the openmobile people. they really have a diffrent outloox. from what i have seen they are using the gumstix platform with gsm modules from sparkfun and a hitachi bassed 2x16 line display, seems nice and small and quite workable (i am intrested in it and would jump right in if it wasn't for this project). they are as far as i can tell aiming for a solution that you can put together with a couple of online orders and a soldering iorn in your garage. our solution is a much more "mass production, buy as one peice" solution so i belive that puts us at the top end. both have thier advatages.
the other thing i want to push is some kind of xxx approved. so in relation to the above it would be OpenMobile approved which would mean a fully open and documented platform that is hacker friendly. another thing we might want to do is branch out into one of the OSS mobile inititaves set up by the big players (OSDL,monta vista, motorlla... etc) at the moment there are several and we should probbelly align with one. i am leanning towards OSDL as they actually seem to be OSS developer friendly and are pumping back into the community in usefull ways (patches such as DPM (cpu freq scalling for emmbedded devices))
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the ext series has an xip ability if i remeber correctly. but with the ram on this thing i would rather a squashfs partion or simmilar with compression enabled but then again i plan on having little flash and chucking my Z's microdrive in it
i saw that article. he is talking about somthing simmilar to us (it wasent one of you guys who posted was it) but they seem to focus on the case more than the overall idea (you see alot of that on slashdot, only ever one conversation about one thing at a time) however at the end they do mention custom membrane keyboards
http://www.melrose-nl.com/membraneswitch.html (http://www.melrose-nl.com/membraneswitch.html)
http://www.newenglandkeyboard.com/ (http://www.newenglandkeyboard.com/)
very hand and going into my hardware links bin, nice to know keyboards are harder than they appear, i was just going to use microswitches with a membrane on top but i guess the reliability wont be up to scratch (however i can just resolder new ones on when the break )
any thoght on this. perhaps a real time chat is in order im on MSN and am willing to sign up for most chat networks however irc might be better (alias is jaycoles (@) yahoo.com on MSN, last i knew i was also signed up for yahoo messenger but i dont have contacts on there that i talk to)
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Hi,
hmmm... with the advent of USB I would question the need for CF and PCMCIA. I am not sure how much each would get used. I'm not sure enough people would in reality use them enough of the time to warrent the board space, performance hit and case complexity. Remember, each hole has to be carefully engineered and the fewer holes the better. In REALITY, who will use the CF when the USB and SD is there? Wouldn't a better use of the case space be to have a USB "bay", a void inside the case that would be big enough to take a couple of de-cased USB "dongles" one for wireless and the other for bluetooth or a flash drive. It would be cheaper and quicker to use an existing device for these functions than to place on board. The KISS principle reigns supreme for homers. If someone else has done it better, cheaper and easier, then stand on those shoulders
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i have to agree with you on that one, however i still would like to have the full ATA on the backpack connector. if i do get rid of the microdrive then the design does get alot thinner and we get some space back so it is worth considering however it is also nice to have an internal high capacity storage (ie microdrive or high GB CF card)
SD are nice but i am unsure if we can get the high speed out of them under linux, i should do some speed tests under OZ and see what i get as for top speed you need 4 bit SDIO and we know what that means (some sdio stuff has been checked into the kernel if i remeber correctly)
I have thoght about the bays before but think they are a waste of space. if we go down the thin route then why not a backpack with a usb hub on it so that a user can have it if they wish.
at the moment i am already considering a usb hub as every chip i look at is usb
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In an ideal world then a backpack would be great, particularly with a USB hub. Especially to make it extensible to 2 or 3, but again there is the engineering effort to think about. One case is hard but having 2 cases that fit together in a neat way would be an order of magnitude more difficult. I think SD is the way to go, support is coming on a treat with linux.
Having said that I have often thought about serialising the CF interface, pumping it over a thin LVDS line and deserialising it at the other end, kind of like a poor mans SATA. This way you get large storage and small, case independant form factor. decoupling the CF from the case would make things neater.
Prolly an IRC chat would be a good thing, have a party line with all interested parties if possible. One thing for sure is that all the people cannot be pleased. A lot of this sort of these collabortive projects fall over because in all the initial enthusiasm everybody gives their wish list but in reality they would not use much of on their wish list and the project gets bogged down in complexity. I for one would like Doc Browns flux capacitor
Please don't get me wrong and think I am pessimistic or sniping at anyone in particular. One thing that springs to mind for me is the 7.1 sound that was mentioned. To use it you would have to be in a large room, with large speakers and a large receiver.... surely such a room would have a multimedia device far better suited to the job of producing 7.1 sound than a super zaurus. To justify 7.1 you would have to be watching HD content, that requires a lot of bandwidth and a lot of processing.... I am prolly missing the point, but this is a homer, it has to be realistic or it will not get built.
Wow, do I sound the billy come lately who is p*ssing in the porridge
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dont worry about that i have had my dobts about the 7.1 thats why i am only aiming for 5.1 . at the moment i do have a pair of 5.1 headphones sitting next to me which would be great for quake. however there are some things that demand A2D that are tacking priority. ie power managment, microphone and D2A for things like backlights and gsm if we use a module, so we will see. i like the chip i have mentioned but it dosent fufil all my requirments as it only does sound
i do have a 5.1 usb device that works well with linux and i think i might just use that. however some people have mentioned this device for field recording and would like 2 headphone sockets. i belive this to be a resonable request and as such looked at high quality sound chips as that would be the best thing to go with it. however a external device might in fact be a better option for them as it will have protection and shielding and allow the end user to deside how much they need in terms of sound
the backpack thing is somthing that will go it as it means a docking connector or somthing a hobbist can connecta home made design to (and hope it wont blow the thing up)
but your right up till now i have been begging people to come up with wierd ideas and i did say that i was going to start shooting them down next week to get it to a point where its "makable" (is that even a word, i know salable (sale and able) is) so thanks for beging the process
criteria are: is there a better way to do it (ie external).
now full sized usb ports are in the middle for me. i hat having to carry a cable just to plug somthing in.
backpack in my opinon would be a waste to remove as it allows people to add somthing if they really need it. as for the backpacks a snug fit can be hard but i dont see it bieng as hard as you state (i however am no a mechaical designer)
if you really need external CF then usb card readers are the way to go
in fact i am almost at the point where i would drop the external ata on the backpack and say use usb its that universal. if we have a internal CF then having an external one is a recipie for disaster not to mention the power up issues associated with ATA on an external DETACHABLE bus *** must ponder this more ***
just a quick question you dnot work for sharp do you
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No I don't work for sharp, but I have designed a few PDAs and phones
Getting a backpack functional would be ok, getting one elegant will be hard. You can have one that simply "bolts up" to the mothercase and physical connection will be made by mechanical tightening. To have a nice sliding one that looks professional is a lot harder. A good but sad point is to keep everything square and blocky, so no curves and definitely no compound curves!!
Unfortunately I'm off for the weekend so will be back reading on Tuesday, so maybe we can hammer out some details then... maybe do it away from this thread as it is getting a bit large and unmanageable. In the meantime follow the mantra of the great Mr Chapman "Simplicate, and add lightness"
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IRC on freenode? How does one setup a channel?
http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#groups (http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#groups)
What about an 'about' channel (starting with an '##') - do these require registration?
Si
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IRC on freenode? How does one setup a channel?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135010\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
/join <channelname>
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sounds good as far as i can see this should be about 3 or 4 seperate threads by now. i guess i will have to do a bit of reading as well
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and i should put this on the wiki
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and i should put this on the wiki
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135016\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
And could you fix the wiki as well? It's playing hard to reach again.
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What do we want name-wise for the IRC channel? I've just opened one called #openpda on irc.freenode.net
Still can't access the wiki...
Si
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trust me the wiki is up as its on the machine i am typing on
problem seems to be dns related, i will try and get on that. i think my isp is booting me off at regular intervals and when i reconnect i get a diffrent ip
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In an ideal world then a backpack would be great... One case is hard but having 2 cases that fit together in a neat way would be an order of magnitude more difficult. I think SD is the way to go, support is coming on a treat with linux.
Having said that I have often thought about serialising the CF interface, pumping it over a thin LVDS [div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135003\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
hey, we forgot to include SATA interface on this baby. good point, use this for mass storage.
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Have you considered approaching GamePark with the plans, they are quite good at launching hardware which is well enough documented for people to do all sorts of things. Their GP2X would be an interesting device to hack, http://www.gp2x.com/ (http://www.gp2x.com/) seeing as it has the core of the sort of thing we're looking for?
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however a external device might in fact be a better option for them as it will have protection and shielding and allow the end user to deside how much they need in terms of sound[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135006\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
there are several small USB-powered audio devices out there. So far the MAudio Transit USB has been shot down to being a piece of noisy junk according to some reviews and driver issues. It is 24/96, though, might be worth something if anyone can get it going) The Tascam US-122 is bigger than a clamshell Z and sucks down up to 500mA (according to the manual).
The Behringer UCA202 USB Interface is 16/48 and is nearly plug and play under Linux, but it is also only unbalanced RCA ins and outs. Oh, it does have optical out as well. It is $30 from zZounds Gets pretty good reviews over there, too.
Samson also makes a condensor mic that plugs into USB, the C03U is the most recent incarnation. It is also only 16/48, however But it does get good reviews @ Harmony Central. Can't seem to find too much about it running under Linux, though, just Windows and OSX.
Well, that's all for now. I need to do some work, but i'll look for more stuff later.
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i use a creative audigy 2 and it was plug and play for linux
for gamepark, i have considered it. if you look at where we are headed it is obvious (to me anyway) that to maintain the quality of the product we will have to lease the design or get a comercil company intrestead. at the moment i have several companies in mind
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Ok i added some info to the wiki but keep in mind there is more than one project there (ie i mainly updated the smartups page) hower most of the work was with structure and making things play nice across the diffrent pages
all the other info i added to the openpda wiki was background infomation for keywords and mirrored this thread (116 pages long and 1/2 a MB of text and pictures)
have fun, if you want an acount just contact me and i will set it up, you dont need an acount to edit the material however it does make it easier for me to keep track of what edit you have made and allows you to upload and write protect pages
Please note the project specific bar on the left (took me awhile to figure that one out) changing projects changes the links at the top to those relevent for the project
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"Unable to connect
Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at tac-net.homelinux.org."
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hmm this is becoming a major problem for me, because of the way my router is seh up i cant test it from the outside and my ISP is giving me problems, i should look at getting it hosted somewhere else
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Good to see we now have Nemuri Neko, who has already desgined multiple PDA's, on board. Sounds like he could be of great assistance to this project.
Someone suggested using the PSP screen- its not good enough I'm afraid as it can only manage 480x272 iirc. It seems the 6000 screen is the fave right now but I'm really hoping that by the time the hardware is mostly complete we will be able to get an affordable 800x480 or even 800x600 screen. Thats what I'd get as I want to be able to watch DVD quality videos and actual DVDs without scaling.
As for Gamepark manufacturing this- I would say stay away if the GP2X is anything to go by. I've not played with the new model GP2X yet but my mate has the original GP2X and I have to say it stands out as the poorest build quality I've ever seen on some home electronics. The (crap, improperly aligned) joystick, which should've been a joypad anyway, fell off within the first week he had it. The headphone socket was poorly welded and you have to have the headphone jack sticking out just slightly to get stereo. On top of all this you have to use a rolled up bit of tin foil to pad the battery connection- rechargeable batteries didn't fit in properly!!! What a joke! Contrast this to the beautiful, robust, quality build of the cxxxx we're used to and they're worlds apart.
DB- Please let me know the results of your experiments with SD cards under OZ. I've got a 150x 4GB SD card in the post and I've been wondering what the max rw xfer rates I'll be able to get from it on my c3k are. I've asked in a few threads on this site but had no answer yet.
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Buffered reads get 1.6MB/s, Cached get 308MB. (hdparm -t test) not pricise and quite supprising. but i have yet to test it more
i have worn out the headphone jack on my Z. been that way for a couple of months
from thier site thier new designs seem bettr, i wonder what the cause of the poor build quality was
800x600, is this needed on a Z. the chip has all the hardware built in to do quick easy rescalling (part of the image processing stuff)
yeah its great we finally get someone who has done this before
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Cached reads get 308MB? 308MB/s or 308Mb/s? Surely thats a typo? I presume you mean 3.08MB/s?
What about write speed? What is the speed rating of your SD card?
Thanks!
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Hmmm. . . We have a full 16-bit ATA interface on the chip, right? You've been talking about using it with a CF card, but others want you to use the NAND flash for it, and put it on the DDR bus so it's fast, and the device is slim.
Why don't you just use flash chips on the ATA bus (16 bit)? It won't screw with the DDR bus (Essential if we want to get decent speeds for video and gaming.) and will be fast. . right?
If you need to boot from the 8 bit bus, put the secure B/Loading kernel in 16mb on the 8bit, and like we were gonna do with the CF card, kexec the ATA flash. . . That would work, would it not?
I sure as hell want the huge fast memory, and if possible the ATA cf.
This is going to be my main desktop replacement when I get to university, on which I'm going to do recording. . If you cut down the memory size or speed, the latency will shoot up. The device is then completely useless for music recording (needs 24/96 with low latency. . less than 10ms), and loses alot of the edge it had in terms of VOIP as well.
Why not ask the management for a separate forum or subforum for device development?
And the point about the weight is because of the particular uses of this device. PDA's are stupid to use on a desk or a lap, they've got to work handheld, and I happen to use my 5600 alot when I'm in bed, doing late night work.
I do agree with abandoning external ATA, USB2 ATA will be fine for anyone who wants it.
I never liked compound curves, they're a nightmare for socket placement. I still don't see whats wrong with the CXXXX case shape.
Looking forward to this for good recording, good multimedia support, EXCELLENT security and good COMMS. If we take away from the Encrypted CF, secured bootloader in small flash stuff, we start lo lose the security features we were discussing.
And manganese casing, forgot about that. . My clie was incased in it. Got pretty bent in places, but held the finish pretty good.
Rereading again.
WEIM is different from the DDR bus? 50MBps on the 8 bit NAND is pretty much big enough to load a bootloader and kernel into memory, right? o.O
That seems to me just another argument to go with the original secure bootloader and removable ATA flash. . If your internal CF card fails (As it will eventually do) It can be replaced easily, and since the full OS will be accessed and written to a larger amount than the bootloader, It looks to be far more reliable to use a removable OS disk like a CF flash card on ATA, and keep the bootloader only in non-removeable flash. The bootloader will be reinstalled what. . 20 times total in the life of a device? Less for even most developers. . . If we have the CF card accessible in a similar way to the battery on an old Z, where the system shuts down as soon as you try to access the battery cover (Experiences of 5600), then having the CF under a lockable slot but externally accessible, seems to give upgradeability, easy repair access, and makes changing OS about 1000 times easier and safer than on a Zaurus. Also, with two external SD card slots, we can keep datafiles on an SD card, and put only the OS, and programs on CF.
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Got my 4GB SD card today!
With it plugged into my PC I get about 3MB/s write on average and just over 5MB/s read and its supposed to be a 150x card
Is this normal or is my card crap?
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Thats a good speed, on a PC thats about as good as i get. (i use the sandisk 60x ultra 2 cards). if i remeber correctly the 1.0 spec states that 60x is the max while the updated spec allows for faster speeds. as far as i know there are no updated readers avalible yet
that wasent a typo on the 308MB/s that was reading from the OS's block device cache (ie RAM). i should set up a test to generate files and see how long they take to be created but the numbers i have allow me to get a general benchmark for the card.
if you are worried i sugest filling the card and then copping data to the MD and timing haw long it takes (remeber to "sync" on the cammand line). over clocking will effect this as it is more of a test of how well it can move data around and is partially limited by the microdrive
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The bootloader should be flashed once and then made RO atherwise thier is a security flaw in it that would allow a user to read the keys. it still needs some work and refining
WEIM is on the DDR bus but its very flexible in what you can attach
the flash is an intresting problem, we need it to boot (it may not need to be on the flash interface) but how much performance do we need, i know some people want large flash compared to using a CF card however the chip limits the size of flash to 1GB if i rember correctly, with ATA we can address over 250GB
this in fact is not that important as we can not hook the flash directly to the ATA bus, we need a translator which would be hard to do in a cpld but easy in a fpga. problem is that a fpga is very power hungry (and why i plan to put it on a docking station instead)
keep in mind that the secure boot increses hard drive (CF) latency and effects cpu load
what i like about the CF card on the ATA bus is DMA transfers and alll the nice goodies that ATA brings to the table. eg ability to swap out with somthing bigger and others, who knows we may be able to support hot swap ATA/CF cards
there is nothin wrong with the Cxxxx case for those who are buying the thing but for the PCB designer you really want to maximise the amount of board space on a project like this as the trackball takes a huge amount of verticle depth and makes the board non rectangular which means we have to pay to get the board cut. it also limits where i can put things like connectors.
for example i have designed boards that took 30mins to route to 99.5% then fail because it could not route it all. i would then move a part 1mm to the side and re-route. doing so all day. in the end i dropped 1 resistor and the whole thing routed in 20 mins. what goes where can make a huge diffrence. and these boards had no timing requirements unlike what we are designing
might ask for the fourm like you asked but i dont really want to do so unless there is a good chance the product will be made. i'll wait for "the cat" before making a desiion
not really a huge concern for most but i would like to make this progect as easy as posible on my time and my pocket
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there is nothin wrong with the Cxxxx case for those who are buying the thing but for the PCB designer you really want to maximise the amount of board space on a project like this as the trackball takes a huge amount of verticle depth and makes the board non rectangular which means we have to pay to get the board cut. it also limits where i can put things like connectors.
Hey, anybody know what kind of trackball the new "mighty mouse" that apple is using has?? It's a little bitty guy that would probably be a good trackball for a handheld. Though if it has a touchscreen I don't see why it needs a trackball.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/dissect.ars (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/dissect.ars)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/iandavid/1727...in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/iandavid/172711067/in/photostream/)
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Thanks for the welcome =) Da_Blitz: I've used the Zaurus quite a bit in the past, and the keyboard just doesn't work at all for me =P Freaking tiny keys heheh. Oh well, the keyboard is not too much of an issue for me. I'll deal =P Anyway, moving on, I agree completely with the focus on device performance. Although battery life is something we should try to be careful with, as well. I'm also thinking of a device that can be customized extensively to the user. Remember when all the latest mobile phones had like 350 colourful cases that one could use to add colour and a slight personal touch to their mobile phone? People loved it. The same with iPod accessories. While there's no real functionality to the idea, it's something that really draws people - the idea of making their device unique, and to suit them. I'm all for custom cases for my open-source PDA =D
Another idea is the whole issue with storage. There's a really neat 0.85" HDD from Toshiba that holds approx 4 gigs of data. Might be something to look into. Although Hard drives are a proven battery-muncher, it may be an avenue worth exploring.
I've got much more extensive descriptions and ideas that I have written down somewhere, and also a bunch of my drawings I've done that I will scan in and upload to my server so that you can take a look at what my ideas are in more detail.
Nice to meet you all =)
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The toshiba thing looks nice as it is probbelly an ATA drive so no probs there. in fact you could even use a Ipod drive if you needed (they are ata right?)
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The toshiba thing looks nice as it is probbelly an ATA drive so no probs there. in fact you could even use a Ipod drive if you needed (they are ata right?)
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Yea, but they have a funky connector.
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Well, with an internal CF card, what's the problem? They're not THAT big after all.
The hot-swap ATA - That would only work if we were booting from SD, right? Note: There should DEFINATELY be a menu in the bootloader to choose what drive to boot from: ATA, SD0, SD1, or USB. . . Since it'll only boot a kernel with the right private key, that's not a problem for security. . . Trying to add IDE HS is probably too much of a hassle. . . With the USB ports, I think it's important to remember that you can plug in a USB CF reader like on a normal Z, so having a hotswappable drive is probably not worth the implementation headache.
I don't really mind too much where the Trackball and D-Pad are, as long as they are covered by the screen panel when it's closed. I only want to be able to knock the backpanel controls when playing music, and they'll be controlled by the "hold" switch. I'm gonna sketch out another design similar to the CXXXX systems in the next day or so, but just one point. . . If we're having end connectors, doesn't that mean the board is going to have to be routed anyway? Otherwise where the heck does the battery fit? Not to mention Trackball, CF card. . .
I'm going to have another design sketch out as I said, and I'll see if i can find a scanner or something to upload my (Terribly Drawn) current concepts when I have five. . . And a scanner.
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not really a huge concern for most but i would like to make this progect as easy as posible on my time and my pocket
It is a concern for most, as the cheaper and faster you get it done, the cheaper it'll be for us and the sooner we get it.
in fact you could even use a Ipod drive if you needed (they are ata right?)
Yep. There are adapters from iPod-style drives to 40 or 44 pin IDE on eBay, hence why I suggested putting on a 44-pin IDE header.
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rectangular routing is easire and cheaper than odd shapes and eaiser to design with in my opinion. the issue is with the trackball but with the battery we just have that on the end and the CF we dont have a cut out just like on the cxx00 series
not really a huge concern for most but i would like to make this progect as easy as posible on my time and my pocket
It is a concern for most, as the cheaper and faster you get it done, the cheaper it'll be for us and the sooner we get it.
glad to see it
if you have used altboot on OZ you will have a good idea of what it does. i thoght we should skin it to look like a PC bios screen
and thats kernel signed with the correct private key (you dont want to ship the devices with your private key)
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CORRECT private key.
So the Private key will be preassigned with the device?
Never used Altboot, so you'll have to explain it to me on that one. But that's why I asked. XP
So, what DOES it do? I'm going to assume it will have options to choose between SD0 SD1 and ATA0, because that would make sense to include.
You could even have network boot support. Ok. . Maybe not network boot. But I think USB boot would be a good idea, because that means those who want to use it on a desktop can have a 300GB drive in a Powered USB enclosure, with a fully installed PPZ OS on an ext2 (ReiserFS? What? I'm a slackware user!) partition and just boot to it, with all their software etc preinstalled on that. As far as the docking station talk was going, I think a Mostly-USB based solution would be better than using external ATA and stuff. That way if you want a better screen res, just include a USB videocard in the docking station.
I still think the notebok-type design was a good idea for that, with the PPZ sliding in to the case. This is of course another argument for a CXXXX style mostly-square case, because then the HDTV, Audio and USB port can just be on one end which slides into the case along moulded rails. |shrugs| You could easily fit a HDTV, 2 Audio jacks, and a full-size USB port on one end of the 5600, so I think that'd work fine. I'd quite happily use an 800x600 docking station if I knew I could just plug in a desktop monitor to it for a higher res. You could then blank out the PPZ's TFT but keep the touchpanel running, and use it as an enlarged Touchpad for the notebook. This would mean the bare minimum of logic in the DPZ itself, just something to convert the HDTV signal into a signal for the screen, something to manage the DPZ's battery, and charge the PPZ while connected to a mains supply, A USB hub to connect to the internal keyboard and give external ports, and a power amp for the notebooks speakers and microphone.
As far as the bootloader goes, making it completely RO is in my opinion a debatable idea, because if any features, bugfixes or updates (Kernel 2.7? ) need to be added later, then there's no chance. Perhaps leave it accessible to JTAG only? That way only a really skilled person could overwrite it, and by that point, you haven't really got much hope of keeping it secure anyway, they're intelligent enough to find a way in. At least the inbuilt security will prevent your average Drug runner from taking the device and selling it off.
If necesary, I think it would be better to drop the trackball than try and reshape the device to fit it in, because outside of that front-edge left or right, it's just not comfortable to use it. Better to keep an intelliball or something in your bag and use that if you need trackball. It's a feature I was looking forward to. . . (Every quad you taaaaake!) but if it's going to be somewhere that's uncomfortable to use, better to drop it and save the power. I'm presuming the board right behind the keyboard surface would cover the entirety of the device's area right? To attach the rear and end connectors to, aswell as keyboard, case controls, and LED's (And main TFT, SPK/Mic, Touch?) and to have the SIM socket (beneath the battery like a nokia?) on, and then have the other boards stacked on the other side of the case with the logic, second screen, second layer of sockets (Second SD slot parallel with the first?) and battery connector on.
Ipod drives. . . They're much larger than a CFII, right? So. .. Why on earth do you want to put one in a PDA? With all the stuff that's in this, I honestly don't think there's going to be enough space for a drive the size of a PCMCIA card. 20GB MD's are out in the next few months everywhere, (Since they're already out in some places) And that's more than most of you will need. If you need more, just buy an iPod and use it as a Powered USB Hard disk! You'll need to buy an ipod to get the hard disk out anyway, (Unless it's from a dead ipod on ebay) And bigger devices usually mean there's more stuff in them to drain power. XP
New ipod is 60GB for $299. Just use that over USB, and you're sorted. XP Battery will last longer anyway. (Is there any way that you can power down an unmounted ATA device? Maybe through your CF hotswap research? That would mean while using say. . an iPod, which is self powered, you could power down the internal drive for a power gain.
Just my $40. XP
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I havent heard of 20G MD bieng out, do you have a link
private key will be whatever you can generate and will be burnt into the device at first boot (i guess i can do it if you want and back it up for you in case you lose the key)
the idea for an ipod or laptop battry is for those who need some real storage for whatever reasons. it does add bulk but that means you can add a bigger battery
the bootloader is RO for a reason. there is no reason why you would want to update the bootloader. just try and name one that cant be done by kexec'ing to a gpg signed 2nd bootloader. "think diffrent"
altboot is basically linux and a command line app that allows you to boot off of NFS, CF, SD and loop mounted images on the above formats as well as allow you to set the linux command line parameters. it is in flash and kexec's a kernel in /boot from the desired medium (CF and what not)
I find it funny haw many people assum that thinks like this will show a noticable gain in battery life, just my .02 c. the extra power this thing takes is nothing when campared to the wifi or CPU, even the RAM maes the power consumpiton of the trackball look tiny
i will try and get a diagram up (i find it very hard to imagine from a textual description) but the battery sits at the end because i assume the use of thick battries. the keyboard will be the only PCB that gose edge to edge. its very hard to say what the final board will look like as we still need to decide on chipsets and such which will give me an idea of how much space we will need
dont expect the sim card to be beneath the nokia. if you see how much room the cxx00 battery takes i think you will understand
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Battery:
If it's any bigger than that of a 5600, then who cares? The 5600 battery is 1700mAh anyway, and you could easily fit the SIM socket underneath. (BL08)
Main point about the trackball is that it's basically there for Gaming, and CAD. Anybody who'se that desparate can use an external one, because there's no point in having one if it's in an uncomfortable place because of board shape. If it's going to be a pain in the Derriere to design a board to fit round it then drop it, since it's no good in an awkawrdly placed one.
If we're having connectors around the edge of the case, My point there was that most of them might as well be attached to the Keyboard PCB since it's covering the area of the device anyway.
What's the reason for making the bootloader RO? (You told me there was one, not what it was ) I thought it was for the sake of Security, which as I said, if the person can use JTAG, they're probably good enough to work another way around the bootloader anyway. (Even if it's a BGA RW Station and a new flash chip.)
And as I listed, those are all reasons to update the bootloader. XP
If people DO lose their key, they'll need to reflash it. If it's flashable by JTAG and nothing else, they can still do that. I mean seriously, how many of the people who would normally steal a device like this can use JTAG? If we keep the documentation of how to do that specifically for the PPZ offline, given only with the hard-copy paperwork of the PPZ anyway, they'll need to ask how to do it. Just make sure they give you the serial number first, and bingo. You've traced the device! Not to mention the concept of the trace program over the modem.
Where do you store the second bootloader, anyway? XP If it's on the ATA or SD, it kinda defeats the object.
I thought the new MD's were out, they might not be. . . They're supposed to be available this year though, we shouldn't have to wait long.
And again, any way to modify that to add USB boot support? I'm guessing it wouldn't be a particular challenge. . Mount the drive and kexec the kernel from it? As I said, would be useful for the Desktop mode, and for people with iPods etc who want to be able to boot from 'em.
As far as the internal ipod drive goes, I was making the point that most people won't need it, or can use it externally, so as far as the PPZ's normal case goes. . better to use a CF socket and keep the case small. PPZ with an extra CM thick for the bigger battery and drive starts to become a little too big for most pockets. Mine, at least. XD
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What's the reason for making the bootloader RO?
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It makes the device unbrickable
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But if it's only writable from JTAG, chances are that if you know how to flash it once, you know how to flash it again. Right?
I'm not suggesting we make it flashable from OS or anything, just over JTAG. That being the whole point of JTAG in the first plce, right? Flashing and Debugging?
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and a RW bootloader can allow someone to get you encrpytion keys on boot
keyboard PCB might not be made by us, i have seen some people who can do it for us and besides its a bad idea to begin with due to key placment and throgh hole parts
we will be using secure jtag, that requires a code to be sent before flashing
i intend to make this device unhackable if posible, that means not even i can bypass it. it makes it more intresting. if you dont want the extra security then dont enable it or put it on a lower level however i am sure there are a couple of companies who would like somthing this capable. however i ekpect to be yelled at by them when they stuff up and need the data
basically its trusted computing, if you F*** up your F**** (sorry bout the language but i feel its the only way to get the point across) that said you dont have to use the encryption, use the authentication instead
Where do you store the second bootloader, anyway? XP If it's on the ATA or SD, it kinda defeats the object.
thats why i have the entire encryption and/or authentication so that you can only boot a signed 2nd stage bootloader, what you do from there is your own problem
this thing will boot off anything linux will support
Please remeber this is an Extensible platform, if someone wants a bigger case they can buy a bigger case
i really have to simplify this now. i think i should not comment on the case but focus on the PCB and follow the princibles of simplicity and extensability
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once its debuged i am removing the jtag port.
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Ok. next question: Can the Linux Encrypted Bootloader kexec the kernels of other OS's? For example. . FreeBSD, OpenBSD, AROS. . .?
Ok, for me. . . Just AROS. But is it capable of that? That's a biiiig one for me.
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FYI, the ipod recharges when connected to a USB port. Make sure to modify the cable so it can't.
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FYI, the ipod recharges when connected to a USB port. Make sure to modify the cable so it can't.
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The ipod negotiates the current draw first, so you can instruct linux not to charge it.
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kexec can execute any binary image regardless of what it is. as long as it runs on the hardware it can exec it (this is how tho openBSD peopel boot on the Z)
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i also discorvered the problem with the dns, the client i was using fails silently. no error message or exit code to indicate a lack of update (very bad programming practice)
updating by hand at the moment but my IP is alot more stable now
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once its debuged i am removing the jtag port.
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Err, then how are we supposed to get the bootloader on then? Wouldn't the secure JTAG be signed agianst the number in the iMX, which we wouldn't know initially?
And as I listed, those are all reasons to update the bootloader. XP
Let me guess, you're still using LILO. I've put multiple kernels, including going from 2.4 series to 2.6 series kernels without redoing GRUB. One just needs to update the config and put the kernel/initrd in /boot, which is in a rw partition. With a more embedded system, you just name the kernel/initrd the right name, and in this system, have to sign it with the correct key to load it.
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its a real chiken and egg problem till you look at the data sheet and relise that you can send this thing code to be executed over usb
when faced between the option of flashing over usb or jtag i think more people would have a usb port than jtag equipment
onec everything is flashed then we can disable flashing over the usb port (must double check that)
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Ok, lets get rid of the flash slowing down the SDRAM meme. The flash whether NAND or NOR will not slow down the SDRAM in any meaningful way. They only share a bus in the sense that they both use AMBA peripherals to the CPU, but the arbiter will mean things move along at a good pace. If you want to look at the real culprit for system slowdown then begin to look at the LCD. Having a look at some of the app notes the iMX looks to have to hand over up to 70% of available bandwidth for a VGA screen running 3d graphics, this will only get worse as the resolution increases. This includes using the 3d engine so has a high pixel rate that would only be seen in games.
Now, these tests were done using 16 bit SDRAM, and I think the plan is to use 32bit mobile DDR SDRAM so this whould halve the memory requirements. But this is something to keep in mind if you want the result to run 3d apps.
Over to the keyboard, thinking about having a membrane over keyswitches.... I'm not sure how that will work. I have seen membrane keyboards, but these usually have a conductive layer over a spiral of etch, so when the "key" is pressed then the contact is made. The best adaption of this I have seen are in old HP calculators and pocket computers. These had a separate keycap pivoted above a shallow metal dome. this gave very good key feel for not much vertical height.
Surface mount keyswitches will definitely provide the best feel for a keyboard, but even the most shallow of these are tall, add to that the keycap that has to be placed over it and you have a keyboard with a height of 5mm or over. a better solution is to pivot the keycap below the upper deck height of the keyswitch, but this is very hard to engineer.
Last time I did something similar Fujitsu had some nice embedded keyboards off the shelf, but they are larger than I think this forum wants. Check out the following pdf
http://www.fceu.fujitsu.com/pdf/Datasheet_FKB-7681.pdf (http://www.fceu.fujitsu.com/pdf/Datasheet_FKB-7681.pdf)
The amount of things in this design may very well mean that a keyboard of this size is useable. They definitely feel ok to type on.
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its a real chiken and egg problem till you look at the data sheet and relise that you can send this thing code to be executed over usb
when faced between the option of flashing over usb or jtag i think more people would have a usb port than jtag equipment
onec everything is flashed then we can disable flashing over the usb port (must double check that)
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First boot can be done over USB, and thus a loader can be loaded Then a change in jumpers, or fuse burn can disable this option. There will be nothing that can be done about a determined engineer re-flashing, but data already flashed should be able to be made safe. It is not tamper proof, but is what the datasheet describes as tamper evident.
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Do we have an IRC channel to have a chat? cos some of this is going to get very loooong and very technical. Toys will be thrown, chickens counted and milk spilled before things are finalised, all of which is going to take up a lot of pages on this board
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keyboard is nice but too big
i was under the impresion that the cerrunt Z keyboards are membrane bassed and not switches. the mebrane keypads give the option for the metal dome (yaou have to look for it in the links i gave out)
32bit all the way, i am aware of the LCD causing that much of a performance hit however i belive the flash is a performance penalty comes from times where you need data from flash and DDR ram at the same time (ie watching a moive) also some have mentioned audio work with this thing.
ethier way i have repetadly said that i only want a small flash area to bootload so it dosent matter how the flash is connected, it just seems to be easier to interface to if we chuck it on the 8 bit bus as i dont see the flash chips as needing high speed acsess
i know putting the flash on the ddr bus makes wireing simpler, i will have to check the boot diagrams and see how placing the flash there will affect the over starting of the CPU
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keyboard is nice but too big
i was under the impresion that the cerrunt Z keyboards are membrane bassed and not switches. the mebrane keypads give the option for the metal dome (yaou have to look for it in the links i gave out)
32bit all the way, i am aware of the LCD causing that much of a performance hit however i belive the flash is a performance penalty comes from times where you need data from flash and DDR ram at the same time (ie watching a moive) also some have mentioned audio work with this thing.
ethier way i have repetadly said that i only want a small flash area to bootload so it dosent matter how the flash is connected, it just seems to be easier to interface to if we chuck it on the 8 bit bus as i dont see the flash chips as needing high speed acsess
i know putting the flash on the ddr bus makes wireing simpler, i will have to check the boot diagrams and see how placing the flash there will affect the over starting of the CPU
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The flash isn't on the SDRAM bus, it is separate, unless you are talking about the core side of the arbiter, then it is unavoidable and moot because everything is contending for this bus. If booting is all that the flash is needed for then I agree totally, keep it as simple as possible. I do like the idea of XIP tho' ( although it appears I am the only one ). XIP will also give an advantage when the bus does get clogged with graphics data. because the GPU and IPU can operate without CPU intervention and using DMA around the CPU busses you can effectively get 100 % of flash bandwidth to run from, as opposed to 25% of SDRAM bandwidth.
We don't want to get bogged down with semantics anyway
I think I mis understood what you meant by membrane and keyswitch. I thought you were thinking of something along the lines of a cheap calculator style membrane, or one like on the ZX80, and keyswitches along the lines of..well a keyboard switch
If there are keyboards avaialable off the shelf, then that is the way to go. It will be very hard to make a keyboard from scratch. Getting a scratch built case to fit will be get the maker huge kudos
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How about breaking this up into seperate threads....
starting new threads for keyboard, screen, memory, expansion. It seems that this thread is too large and daunting to any newcomers to the project. Can we talk the admins into giving us our own section?
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I was under the impression you wanted to put the flash on the same bus as the DDR using WIEM stuff. i guess that is where the confusion is comming from (seems to be alot of that here i will ask for that seperate fourm)
XIP is nice but with huge amounts of RAM (ie greater than 64MB) i dont see the point really as i would expect the program to be running out of cache rather than directly from the DDR RAM. running form flash rather than cache would cause a huge performance hit so i would avoid it however there are times when XIP is handy
but yes the flash is only to bootload thats why i say to chuck it on that little 8bit buss that was designed for the specific purpose of booting the device
with the keyboard i am thinking that we make the bottons as large as posible with no gap between them so that we only have to cut out a huge rectangle and push it throgh.
yeah i should have clarified on the membrane keyboard, i dont like that no tactile feedback style ethier
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sorry lag
anyway it has been sugested we break this up and i will asap.
i will send the email off tonight
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I was under the impression you wanted to put the flash on the same bus as the DDR using WIEM stuff. i guess that is where the confusion is comming from (seems to be alot of that here i will ask for that seperate fourm)
XIP is nice but with huge amounts of RAM (ie greater than 64MB) i dont see the point really as i would expect the program to be running out of cache rather than directly from the DDR RAM. running form flash rather than cache would cause a huge performance hit so i would avoid it however there are times when XIP is handy
but yes the flash is only to bootload thats why i say to chuck it on that little 8bit buss that was designed for the specific purpose of booting the device
with the keyboard i am thinking that we make the bottons as large as posible with no gap between them so that we only have to cut out a huge rectangle and push it throgh.
yeah i should have clarified on the membrane keyboard, i dont like that no tactile feedback style ethier
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But WEIM doesn't sit on the SDRAM bus. Also I wasn't thinking of making the flash non-cacheable, but was thinking of not having it copied to RAM to execute. You can have the Flash cacheable, no problem there, it just seems a waste to me in an embedded environment to copy code from flash to execute rather than just XIP. Again, it does not mean it is not cached.
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cant really see any infomation to prove or disprove the WEIM stuff, as far as i could tell the adress and data pins are all shared between the EMI stuff if it isnt, then think of the posabilities
if this is the case then i may bring back the CF slot
i can see your point about XIP in that case however we are only really using it to boot and i was going to use squashFS on it which would mean no XIP
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cant really see any infomation to prove or disprove the WEIM stuff, as far as i could tell the adress and data pins are all shared between the EMI stuff if it isnt, then think of the posabilities
if this is the case then i may bring back the CF slot
i can see your point about XIP in that case however we are only really using it to boot and i was going to use squashFS on it which would mean no XIP
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aaah, so the CF has gone? If you are just thinking of using the flash to boot, why does it affect whether there is a CF in the system?
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You can create an irc channel on irc.freenode.net by just typing "/join <some name here>". I suggested one earlier, but I think we'd want it logged otherwise it's again going to lose info. Koen, how does one employ ibot to do logging?
Another alternative is to break the info up on the wiki, but it's still inaccessible...
Si
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No if there is no performance hit from the CF card because it has its own dedicated IO pins then i will reintroduce it
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So at that point would we lose the internal ATA, or just have both? (Like a C4X Zaurus) I'm going to assume that the 16bit CF bus will be slower than the 32bit ATA. . .
If you've ever dismantled a Nokia phone, they have a rubber layer, and those minature SMD keyswitches underneath (The rubber is just a set of buttons).
Would that work? We could use a transparent silicon-based rubber for the keypad, although we'd have to find somewhere to mould it for us.
A small gap between keys is preferrable over no gap between keys, even if it's just a thin crack line. (See the Motorola Razr keyboard.) I do alot of keyboard work by feel, so it helps me alot if i can tell when I've actually changed key.
Also, to use MDDR we'd need 8 chips for the full 512mb memory we're looking at. In an MSN conversation with DB, we were looking at using 2 standard DDR chips, which come in much larger values than MDDR - 512MB by two chips will probably not take much more power than 512 by 8 M chips, and will save alot of our precious board space.
Ok, I'm happy with the initial Bootloader being permanent etc etc. If I can boot AROS then I'm happy. (Even though the port isn't even done yet.)
Maybe we should start up OEHF.org?
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So at that point would we lose the internal ATA, or just have both? (Like a C4X Zaurus) I'm going to assume that the 16bit CF bus will be slower than the 32bit ATA. . .
If you've ever dismantled a Nokia phone, they have a rubber layer, and those minature SMD keyswitches underneath (The rubber is just a set of buttons).
Would that work? We could use a transparent silicon-based rubber for the keypad, although we'd have to find somewhere to mould it for us.
A small gap between keys is preferrable over no gap between keys, even if it's just a thin crack line. (See the Motorola Razr keyboard.) I do alot of keyboard work by feel, so it helps me alot if i can tell when I've actually changed key.
Also, to use MDDR we'd need 8 chips for the full 512mb memory we're looking at. In an MSN conversation with DB, we were looking at using 2 standard DDR chips, which come in much larger values than MDDR - 512MB by two chips will probably not take much more power than 512 by 8 M chips, and will save alot of our precious board space.
Ok, I'm happy with the initial Bootloader being permanent etc etc. If I can boot AROS then I'm happy. (Even though the port isn't even done yet.)
Maybe we should start up OEHF.org?
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No if there is no performance hit from the CF card because it has its own dedicated IO pins then i will reintroduce it
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135536\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
It will definitely stall the SDRAM, also because of the async nature it could slow things down unacceptably. I'm not a fan of CF anyway, there is nothing that it cannot do that could not be done faster and better with SD or USB. Looks like some sort of consensus is breaking out anyway, we definitely need a faster way to knock ideas back and forth..
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What you say here about the EMI contradicts what has been said earlier
if it stalls the SDRAM then it must share the SDRAM adress and data pins if so then i will avoid it as it is WAY to slow
i still dont think everyone is on the same page. it seems that some points have already been adressed in other posts that people have not read or do not understand. i will clean up the wiki and post the overview here to clear it up. we are getting to much fragmentation here
as for the CF vs ATA, think 16MB/s vs 66MB/s with DMA acsess. (not that that really means anything) and also think shared bus vs dedicated bus. keeping in mind that the CF card might not reach that speed and those are theroaticl maximums
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What you say here about the EMI contradicts what has been said earlier
if it stalls the SDRAM then it must share the SDRAM adress and data pins if so then i will avoid it as it is WAY to slow
i still dont think everyone is on the same page. it seems that some points have already been adressed in other posts that people have not read or do not understand. i will clean up the wiki and post the overview here to clear it up. we are getting to much fragmentation here
as for the CF vs ATA, think 16MB/s vs 66MB/s with DMA acsess. (not that that really means anything) and also think shared bus vs dedicated bus. keeping in mind that the CF card might not reach that speed and those are theroaticl maximums
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135545\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
It's all in the nature of the transactions. Only the Address pins are multiplexed between WEIM and SDRAM, and because of the burst nature of the transactions they will not interfere too much with each other. Because each is actually attached to a different arbiter it is my understanding that these transactions can overlap, in that one can start before the other finishes. Even within the same arbiter they can and will overlap, being held until a slot is ready. Now the WEIM flash interface because it is fast, and because it is on a different path ( ie internal bus in the memory interface ) will not slow down the SDRAM access to any noticable degree. When DMA is underway for the graphics subsystem, then the WEIM will rarely "interfere" with these transactions because of the overlapping or interleaved transactions. With the PCMCIA things are totally different, in that a transaction can be slow, very slow, and held off by the PCMCIA card ( or CF card ) using the control pins. From my reading of the datasheets, this "beat" of a transaction will not be split or aborted, and thus will cause overall system degredation. To a lesser extent ( much lesser ) the NAND interface suffers the same problem. It can have relatively slow transactions, but when a single "beat" of a transaction is complete the arbiter will throw it off the bus if something else comes along. The request from the SDRAM controller is cascaded down to the peripheral arbiter, and so will take highest priority.
The address phase of each burst transaction is a small percentage of the total transaction time that it should not impact noticeably on the other arbiter.
The NAND controller decouples from the SDRAM bus by using the NAND IO bus, which is comparitively slow when put against the WEIM, not particulary efficient, but is easier to hook up.
Again all this is moot in that if you are only using the flash to boot then it is as good to put it on NAND controller. It will be a little slower to boot and launch off of, but I doubt anyone would notice.
I think you are getting hung up on the shared/dedicated bus thing. The NAND bus will always be slower than the WEIM. The SDRAM will barely be slowed by the WEIM, and the flash on the WEIM will produce a faster system. As you do not intend to run from flash then it doesn't matter. If you intend to load apps from flash, then again I would consider the WEIM.
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Well on reading the datasheet again, it appears that it will overlap transactions depending on the order that they appear, whilst it does overlap the SDRAM acceses to a large degree, the other acceses will complete before a new one is issued. This will only affect the system throughput if multiple masters are trying access differing resources. If the graphics subsystem is doing an access to SDRAM at the same time as the CPU wants flash, the CPU will stall until the SDRAM transaction had finished.
The arbiter will allow both the CPU and GPU to have queued transactions to SDRAM, but in the above case the CPU would still be stalled if the GPU was doing a transaction to SDRAM and then the CPU issued a transaction to SDRAM, but the impact would be less.
Perhaps we should stay on topic as this really doesn't affect the design too much
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maybe we should conference on skype sometime?
alternatively, if everyone was a subscriber to sipgate.de/sipgate.co.uk we could phone each other for free using our zauruses and kp/pi!
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irc....
https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=135019 (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19805&view=findpost&p=135019)
Si
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kexec can execute any binary image regardless of what it is. as long as it runs on the hardware it can exec it (this is how tho openBSD peopel boot on the Z)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135473\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
That is good. I am thinking about porting a Darwin kernel to the ARM processor. Is challenging but appears feasible (sources of Darwin are very well structured).
And using kexec would be a really nice way to boot.
Where can I find more documentation (the ones I find with Google are not enough), e.g. kernel file format, where it is loaded to, where is the binary for the Zaurus Sharp ROM, etc.
-- hns
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i keep getting "no such channel" when i connect on irc. probelly doing somthing wrong at my end
to some extent it does affect the design. it is intresting as it tells us what will take a performance hit and what wont. but does it apply when you stick the flash on an 8bit interface? from what i read doing that causes no shared pins at all. WEIM sounds great but it still sounds as if we need a bit of translation logic, i will have to break out a data sheet or two and look at how to wire it all up
can you give me a page number where it talks about which pins are shared and which are not as i remeber seeing one but cannot find the page anymore
kexec info should be on the arm linux website, i dont know tho full details but i assume its fairly simple. there wouldnt be a file format, only where you get loaded to and the location of the command line args
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i keep getting "no such channel" when i connect on irc. probelly doing somthing wrong at my end
to some extent it does affect the design. it is intresting as it tells us what will take a performance hit and what wont. but does it apply when you stick the flash on an 8bit interface? from what i read doing that causes no shared pins at all. WEIM sounds great but it still sounds as if we need a bit of translation logic, i will have to break out a data sheet or two and look at how to wire it all up
can you give me a page number where it talks about which pins are shared and which are not as i remeber seeing one but cannot find the page anymore
kexec info should be on the arm linux website, i dont know tho full details but i assume its fairly simple. there wouldnt be a file format, only where you get loaded to and the location of the command line args
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
The problem is the data is spread over 3 documents. The pin sharing is in a document called MCIMX31 and is on page 56. The MCMX31RM also has a far more complicated version on page 16-14
NAND does have a dedicated io bus. If you have a look at the operation of NAND it does not have an address bus or data bus, but an I/O bus. This carries both commands and data. So you issue a read on the I/O bus, then wait, then do a read ( or write ) on the same bus, the same pins. It is easy to wire up if you have a nAND controller, but is really not efficient.
The WEIM doesn't really need much external circuitry. It might need a buffer on the low 12 address pins to de-couple the devices from the SDRAM so it doesn't add any additional capacitive load to the SDRAM.
DB: I'll do a full bandwidth comparison of the 2 busses if you like. Fancy having a go as well just to make sure we get it right
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Picking the keyboard now seems to be getting the cart before the horse (and when is the last tiem you saw a horse pushing a cart?), as you need a good idea of the handheld to fit the keyboard.
Anyways, here's an easy to pick up one that might work, and it's decently easy to get one as a normal person:
http://flickr.com/photos/tom61/160165223/ (http://flickr.com/photos/tom61/160165223/)
It's from a Sammy PS2 minikeyboard and gamepad (see the rest of the photoset), designed for games like Phantasy Star Online. It works like any other USB keyboard.
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Ok, when I was looking at the keyboard I was basing it on the Nokia Mobile phone keypad style. Small SMD microswitches with a rubber keypad over the top, transparent so that light can pass through and sprayed with an opaque colour for the places where it's not meant to. This is held over the keyswitches by a frame of metal (or plastic in the nokia's case) that stops the keys falling out.
The good thing about this is that we could use denser rubber for a firmer keypress, as well as make the keys thinner, with a broader surface area, to get your larger keys and make the whole unit smaller.
And it makes the backlight easier. ^^
Edit: Stamp, we have a basic idea of the layout of the PDA, if not what shape the ends are. XD
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mmm very nice keyboard you have there. does it work if plugged into a computer (joysticks and all) if so i would go and grab one (just what i need more stuff on my desk). it may seem silly to some extent to be chosing a keyboard this early however it helps me to specify the elctrical interface to the keyboard, do you want to have an adaptor or just plug it into the board, are they even elctrically compatible with the keyboard scanning matrix?
i like your camparison however if we know what horse we are buying or we already know the girth of the hourse and how strong it is then it would be safe to say that we can make a good estimite as to the cart we will need
i think we will have to get one made. i urge you all to go back and have a look at the linx i gave to see what type of capabilities they have.
mmm seems the problem i had is only refering to the RM, will take a look at the rest tonight. i didnt see that picture. things look good and i will have to study that a bit more. the CF card may go back on the CF controller depending on how much toruble it causes
yes things are finally starting te get technical we really need real time chat, i will look into freenode to set up a room as it didnt work when i tried to connect. the other option is skype or IM. if its skype then i will put my x30 to good use
seems i can rig the thing to boot somehow from external mem. we will see how that affects what i have proposed in terms of boot security. it may effect the authentication part of the boot
i dont know if we really need a bandwidth comparison as it really comes down to te flash chips we use and if they do not share the data pins then we should be fine
ok looking at the docs the data pins for the FLASH and the sdram are on sepearate busses Wohoh!!!" the bad news (not really that bad) is that the NAND, WIEM and PCMCIA all share the same data pins (pg 16-21 in the RM) therefore i think it may be worth brininging back the CF slot over putting the CF on the ATA interface as this then gives us more options
the disadvantage of this is that copying from flash to CF or CF to flash will be slower as both are acsessed at the same time. also with the flash interface say we put the flash on the WIEM we can then go higher speed and wider (32bit anyone) however looking at it it does have a maximum area that each CS can handel (thereby limiting the amount of flash in the sytem).
i think we need to look at each CS and decide what we use each one for so we can then decide on the memory map oy the PDA (might as well do it scince we can) and then from that detirmine how much flash and RAM will go into the system and decide on which chips we will use
and last of all i would rather put the flash on the nand intergace, there seems to be some stuff for flash such as WP that makes it handy for the bootloader stuff. if it works how i belive it does we may be able to update the bootloader and then disable writing to the flash via a hardware register (the overview seems to indicate this)
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I don't wanna slower CF! ;_;
heh, I'd prefer the CF over ATA because all I'm going to use it for is bootup.
External, hotswappable CF expansion is completely pointless for anybody except those who have cameras etc with CF. In that case I think you're likely to get a better data rate over a USB reader anyway.
16MB/s versus 66MB/s is a much bigger deal when my OS is going to be running of of it. Even if it IS just "Theoretical," I'd rather have a bigger bandwidth overhead for new, improved cards to be released.
Now that I understand the flash boot properly, I'm also going to vote for the original plan of a secure bootloader on 16MB RO flash.
Is the account for the kphone Zaurus VOIP free? If so then I'm happy to get one and use that, after al my 5600 has the inbuilt Mic/SPK, and the wireless card I now have should enable it. Skype was always temperamental on my linux box, and I've never used IRC.
Ferret_Simpson Iha4._te_Yu()MrSpammer@Sodarnmuch@hotmail.com for MSN
and FerretSimpson for my AIM account.
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sorry forgon ta adress ferret's keyboard post
i said next to each other with no gap however for tactile feedback i assemed the dome stylu keys that the c3000 uses, even when these are next to eachother with no gap due to the rounded bevel nature there would be a tactile feedback of the boarders of each key
the other advantage would be larger keys as in the cold my hands dont work nearly as well this would easily allow us to iouble the size of each key and would mean we could just cut a rectangular area out to insert the key which means easier case manufactuer
next we have to decied, plastic keys over the membrane or rubber membrane keys. with the first the light would come from the inside of the letter and would be harder to make, however in some ways it is nice as it makes it easier to change keyboard layouts (remeber i am a dvorak user). just let the user glue the keys in whatever location they please
with membrane the letters would be "lettery" and darkened with the light coming form around the letter (see the treo for an example) the rubber is nice for some people but i know that some dont like the tactile feedback it gives
to do both would mean differing key hights which is not nice. however the LED's are inuversal between the two and the mebrane defuses the leds over the entire area
the first way i mentioned is how nokia tends to implemnt thier "hard button" keys (the plastic ones) while the second way is the same as the first but we dont add the plastic tops
anyway i want to go with the metal dome as it gives the tactile feedback we all want (i presume its universal?)
keyboard links from ealier: http://www.melrose-nl.com/membraneswitch.html (http://www.melrose-nl.com/membraneswitch.html)
http://www.newenglandkeyboard.com/ (http://www.newenglandkeyboard.com/)
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dont expect a new CF format to be specified any time soon and even if it is i dont think i could make the exsisting hardware compatible
the speed is actually kind of a joke, its sort of like Hard drives at the moment. they all say 300MB/s for SATA 2 however not one drive can reach that speed and all can work just as fast on SATA (150MB/s) it does reduce the latency for transfer of all tho data however
for this i belive i will ask the only one with experince on how to solve this (neko you there ) he might have some input aon an issue like this however if you feel strongl about it post here and tell me why
remeber this is not YOUR PDA but OURS (to no person in piticular, i must say that to myself once in awhile)
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I just think there should be a slightly more "visible" split between the keys, even if it's just grooves in the one-piece keyboard. The harder the keys, the better the feedback, right?
And colour of the keyboard? Same as the colour of the unit. If we use alu casing, alu keytops. And the advantage of the nokia design is that the keypads are removeable, so that if you wanted to change to Dvorak, or GB, or US, or FR, or whatever you want at a later date, you can. Seems a bit against our design plan to make a completely upgradeable, replaceable PDA, except for the keypad which is glued down.
o.o
I guess it's for simplicity of manufacture, right?
If we look at the XDAE, (Jasjar, Qtech 9000 Yada yada Yada. . .) They seem to have what you're talking about. Fixed dome keys, but with grooves between them. I've tried it, and it's a nice keyboard. Perhaps it would be better to just glue the entire chosen keypad onto the membrane, rather than individual keys. Just have a few different layouts. . . US, GB, DVORAK. . Anyone here want any other keyboard layout? If so, say now. XD
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next we have to decied, plastic keys over the membrane or rubber membrane keys. with the first the light would come from the inside of the letter and would be harder to make, however in some ways it is nice as it makes it easier to change keyboard layouts (remeber i am a dvorak user). just let the user glue the keys in whatever location they please
the 6000 keyboard is about as small as possible to be used (the lack of number keys is its biggest problem), albeit I have medium sized hands but someone with chunky fingers would have a real problem. It's reasonably tactile, so somethign similar but with all the shift/control and number keys would be the smallest sensible keyboard.
the 860 keyboard was, for me, pretty much perfect in terms of size/spacing, and was merely "ok" tactile-wise
I find the Nokia hard plastic keys to be quite pleasant, I've got a 6310i still going strong
so my vote would be for a keyboard that combines these three characteristics
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Is the account for the kphone Zaurus VOIP free? If so then I'm happy to get one and use that, after al my 5600 has the inbuilt Mic/SPK, and the wireless card I now have should enable it. Skype was always temperamental on my linux box, and I've never used IRC.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
sipgate is free to sign up, and best of all unlike other VOIP providers you get a "real" telephone number (geographic one) unlike many where you get one which costs callers a premium rate - so it can be free for people to call you. It confused people when I rang them and they saw the number and thought I was home, despite explaining I was in a hotel in Phoenix Arizona!
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mm the idea of upgardable seems to be thrown around quite a bit with the people i have talked too. in my opinion it will not be upgardable apart from whatever you can chuck on USB, CF or SD
when you buy the unit you will be able to chose to a limited extent what you want on the thing, eg ram and flash then thats it. it is set. while you could upgarde anything that has a pad left over you would be violting the warentee hence i would actually like you to try that as i most likly wont be offering one (smiles are for me)
yes the jas jar is what i took my inspiration from
keep in mind between me and my father we have had over 8 PDAs in 2 years as well as have seen most pdas on the market first hand. i keep up to date with the processor on every PDA avalible and try and dig up as much info on each design as i can so most things i suggest will be from somewhere else that someone has implemented (for example video out is from the toshiba e800 (ati video card, x5[0v,1] 2700g and supprisingly the XDA 2 (which i have right next to me, bet you didnt know it can do vga out ATI)
sticking the keys on can seems to be the way to go but i would like to see your response to larger keys
when i said there was no gap i didnt meen they would be touching, think more like the nokias which have a lsight gap but also remeber that we can shape the plastic key stick ons to have an edge to them for feed back (looks like /------\, note the sloped sides, on the cx000 its more (------) or curved on the edges)
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Larger keys is good. . I'm used to a 5600, remember? TINY keys!
One thing that we seem to have forgotten about the screen panel. . . a second D-Pad? There's a Dpad below the screen on pretty much every PDA ever built. . Even palms have an up/down switch. . . Would this be hard to implement, or not?
Camera above the screen, Dpad below the screen. . . XD
EDIT: I still say there's not enough new hardware for the CF slot to make it worthwhile. EVERY current CF device is integral to the PPZ current design, apart from a barcode scanner. Better to have a faster internal slot for a CF card.
Anyway, we can always wait till we have benchmarks of the two modes from tests, and decide finally then.
Phone, BT, Serial, USB host, Wifi, VGA-Out, Audio, Camera.
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ok long time no see. i had a break from this due to personal issues plus loss of internet access for a few day. LOL i think i spent like an hour just skimming through the new pages.
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Only an hour?
Quick reader.
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key word "skim" plus i read 700 words per minute.
here is a pcb supplier worth looking at.
http://www.goldphoenixpcb.biz/special_price.php (http://www.goldphoenixpcb.biz/special_price.php)
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I have had alot of fun watching who has been reading this fourm form time to time (its also hand because it tells me when someone is typing a reply, hello ***** and ****** )
back on topic:
yes i like usb however removable CF does have advotages for some people. if its easy to implement and you dont care but someone else does then i am inclined to include it to please the crowd its not the hardware but the meory aspect of it. that said we are half expecting to boot of the thing making removal an intresting thing (can anyone say "linux live CF)
as far as i am concerned the only thing going in the screen amniford is the speakers (one ethier side of the screen) and the camera. i belive we are sticking to the c3000 style as much as posible
if we go with the "wing" style that i like then when you turn the screen around you would have both the trackball and dpad sitting at ethier end of the screen (i am thinking like tom's gpx pictures only the screen goes flush with the case or as i call it the "sidekick" design)
after thinking about it we should try and get qemu emulating this thing while we are developind the final design so the software guys can get thier feet wet. anyone want to do this (i am expecting a No)
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haha, did you know that so far we have posted over 120 A4 pages worth of content (see the print layout then click print and see how many pages it wants to print)
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here is a quick cost layout for my guess at what this board would cost for prototype.
Layer Number Setup Fee Unit Price/Board Number Of Boards Price
4 269.74192 7.74192 10 347.16112
Quantity 10
Layer of the PCB 4
Size of the PCB 96.774cm2
PCB Thickness 2mm
Copper Thickness 1oz/35um
Minimum hole size 20mil
Minimum Clearance 10mil
Inner Cut No
Blind or bury holes Yes Price+30% (trust me we need these)
Base Material FR4
Legend Silkscreen Both Side
Solder Mask Sides Both Side
Color of the solder mask Green
Put solder mask on Via Yes
Finish Plating Solder
Gold Fingers None
Number of Gold Fingers 0
Final Price
451.309456
as you can see setup is a big part of the cost as the boards are less than 8 USD each on top of the setup fee.
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from my suppliers page: http://www.ezpcb.com/ (http://www.ezpcb.com/)
they solder and buy the parts, thats why i like them. i just tell them to keep the design for refrence and you guys buy it from them direct, that way i dont deal with any cash transacitoins
only problem is that you load the firmware however it looks like all you will need is a program and a usb port
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baaaaa it erased all my nice space's i put in to make it look good
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do you think 4 layer would be enough or would we ave to go 6 layer? it adds a big chunk to the price when you go 6 layer
"Final Price 642.4093"
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ahhh to many people replying, its like irc on a slow medium
anyway, yes set up cost are expensive thats why you ask if they can keep everything on file to make the costs less
i guess you guys are starting to calculate howe much the prototypes are going to be, i think we will have to get the boards made from scratch at least twice, first time to test it and the second to fix the mistakes, then repeat
at the moment there is enough in the war chest for 2 fully built prototypes with all parts soldered on by the EZPCB people
the link to my site is current and i dont know how long it will work for, i recomend you go there ASAP and add any info you want while its still up. it will be slow as i broke my 40GB cap a couple of days early and should be up to full speed tommorrow if my IP hasent changed (256Kbps up 1.5Mbps down you need to sign up to upload))
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perhaps 6 layer, to keep formatting use the [ CODE] [ /CODE] statments
must compare prices to my link, from what i have heard they are the best for hobiest, however i need to double check thier tollerences and minimum track widths
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I won't disappoint.
No.
Still aganst the sidekick desing because of the issues I have with when it's in my pocket, and also the fact that it will then no longer fit in my PDA case. And as I said before, it's not actually a comfortable design.
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i still dont see what the issues are. if need be then like on the c3000 you can detect when the lcd is ace down and enable a key lock preventeing input to those devices
look at http://www.pcbonline.org/whatcanuorder.php (http://www.pcbonline.org/whatcanuorder.php) for an idea of waht ezpcb offer and why i like them
i expect no matter what you do this will require a new case unless ou have a sutibly generic one. i am simply proposing we make the boader around the LCD as small as posible and extend the sides of the case to contain the dpad, a few buttons and the trackball. the keyboard would be under the screen when closed
i do like the extra sideways width that i gives me as i have fairly large hands. how about we come up with some common placments of connectors such as the keyboard so we can chose between cases
i expect that the keyboard connector will be at the top of the pcb, tracball at the left side and dpad on the right hand side, LCD at the top center for easy connection to the screen
i would find some pics of the c3000 and take a close look, i will do the same with the 5500 as we are both trying to overcome issues with our own device that are not present in the other.
for ekample with the 5500 keyboard you are used to gripping somthing and having your thumbs pointed upwards, with the c3000 its diffrent you grip form the sides and have your thumbs pointing inwards (this is what causes my hand lock up problems) you also dont grip the c3000 you let it rest on your bottom fingers and move the thumbs in and out
when using the dpad i let my index fingers press against ethier side and move the thing upwards with my thumb barly reaching the dpad (similar to the 5500) however i dont have anything to grip with the base of my palm there (with the 5500 the keyboacd cower would be resting there)
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I think 8 layer is going to be realistic. this will have some very finepitch components on it with a small T&G ( not sure at the moment but I will check it out ) I'm not sure what debug provision you are thinking of putting on it but I think you will want 100% via coverage even in the final version. This will take a bit of routing.
I would vote for leaving the CF off and concentrating on the USB and ATA, both waaay faster than the CF.
The pin muxing on this device is complicated isn't it? What I don't understand is why the designers didn't mux the PCMCIA and ATA and leave the flash interface alone!!! Still a lovely device tho'.
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they do, thogh you have to use the flash in 8 bit mode. doing this means thre are no shared pins
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snnif... what am I going to do with all my cf collection ?
Anyway, I think that it's good to break backwards compatability in order to pursue a slimmer and more efficien device !
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Some comments...
Personally, I prefer the CXXX shape over the sidekick.
I have a DSLR camera which takes CF but I'm willing to carry a USB reader, esp if it makes the final PDA smaller/thinner.
Some requests...
Could we have a socket for an external arial for the wireless? I know that space around the device will be limited, but surely not that much?
Also, was there going to be an internal HDD? I've lost track over all these pages
Thanks.
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the CF that we are discussing is the HDD, the idea is tat you can put whatever CF memorey you can find there and use it as /
dont know where people are getting the "lose the CF" from we are mearly talkin amout how to attach it
attenas have been addressed and we will include them
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well, fitting a gig of flash will be pretty easy now Samsung are producing 8GB chips:
http://www.akihabaranews.com/news-12141-60...ash+Memory.html (http://www.akihabaranews.com/news-12141-60-nanometer+8-Gigabit+NAND+Flash+Memory.html)
if you can't address that much in one chunk, how about splitting into chunks, and switching banks?
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Hello, This sounds like it will be a great device when it gets built..
A couple of questions...
My present laptop uses a replaceable small pcmcia card to have the wifi and bluetooth capabilities, I think the modem is on there as well, Is there a way to design things to allow usage of this kind of standard card for wifi and bluetooth? That way when 802.11Z is released (yes I said Z), we could just replace a standard component.
Can you possibly have the Phone portion be a self contained daughter card?
Possibly the same type of card as I suggested for the wifi stuff.
It's not a standard PCMCIA, might be called Compact PCMCIA, and it is entirely internal, and it has wires that plug into it for the antenna, which is in the display portion of the laptop.
On another note, if you had two processors which would give you more USB as well as all the other devices, would that be workable, or too much power and board real estate? It's sounding more and more like a dedicated USB controller/hub is needed.
Is there no way to design the board to fit within the current C3200 case?
Bill
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CF = PCMCIA with diffrent form factor ( i am talking PCMCIA, not cardbus)
PCMCIA, = dead, its very very slow and usb makes wiring the thing alot easier. there are alot of people who want this thing to be modular, i for one dont see thereason. its hard enagh to make small without connectors. when you buy it if you dont want a phone then ruequest the no phone model
i think what you are talking about (used in routors) is mini pci, NO its too big, requires bridging chips and is power hungry (comparativly speaking)
there has been talk of a usb hub in the design. 2 cpu's would be harder than you think unless they were designed for SMP. however the ARM11 is we are discussing if we can go dual or quad core but chaneces are very slim.
if i could find a quad core ARM11 chip i would drop this cpu without hesitation (well there would be some it depens how "workable"the other chip is)
not sure how we will do the flash, that flash chip would cause us headaches. i dont think this is a simple banking hack but i will look into it. at the moment its the last thing on my mind due to its reletive ease
we are still talking about cases. best solution is to design it ourselves however as a fall back we have the Z case
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if i could find a quad core ARM11 chip i would drop this cpu without hesitation (well there would be some it depens how "workable"the other chip is)
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The arm MPCore isn't multicore, but a mainboard with 4 cpu modules stacked on top of eachother. It's huge, draws loads of power and currently glibc doesn't support SMP on arm very good.
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Ok, now that you mention it, the laptop is indeed using mini-PCI for that card.
What about making the phone portion optional via a daughter card configuration?
Bill
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Are you planning to use the mini-USB connectors like what I see on Camcorders and MP-3 players? About 1/2 the size of standard USB connectors.
One of the other nice features of my laptop is, they have a button to manually turn off power to the Wireless card. They
also have a button to turn off that darn touchpad mouse. I think incorporating a power off button for certain power hungry features would be nice. And, from what I've heard the WIFI stuff is very power hungry, and if you were just using the PDA functions you might not need it active. Might also want a way to disable the keyboard backlight as well, although I'm sure that is a very small power usage.
Bill
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I might be able to help with the software side of things.
I also have a line on a board fabricator here in Wisconsin that the company I work for has worked with in the past, don't really know their minimums and comparitive costs. I think we mainly worked with them because we had very small hardware design knowledge, and they were willing to work with us to design what we needed, plus they were nearby. We don't have many problems with the devices that they build for us.
The company is SMT Corporation (http://www.teamsmt.com/) in Appleton, WI
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uhm.. i really like the idea of having some internal free space and an internal usb hub, so anyone can buy his preferred usb device, dismantle it and incorporate it inside the device.
Nowadays you can find anything working on usb
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Alaws wondered about the MPcore and how they did it, the docs seem to indicate a single chip sullotion, must look into it a bit (i have seen the pics). perhaps this is a chance to push multicore arm support i wolud only do it if i could shut down the cores, if the current chipset can do multicore i know i can switch the individual cores to low power mode (deep sleep)
Ok, now that you mention it, the laptop is indeed using mini-PCI for that card.
What about making the phone portion optional via a daughter card configuration?
Bill
how about not soldering the chip on instead doing it this way saves space and manufacturing costs and eases development. an add in card would be a nightmare without some significant help
One of the other nice features of my laptop is, they have a button to manually turn off power to the Wireless card. They
also have a button to turn off that darn touchpad mouse. I think incorporating a power off button for certain power hungry features would be nice. And, from what I've heard the WIFI stuff is very power hungry, and if you were just using the PDA functions you might not need it active. Might also want a way to disable the keyboard backlight as well, although I'm sure that is a very small power usage.
the button for turning off the wifi is in software not hardware. under linux you could (with lirc) bind any button you could imagine to turn off wireless
we will be using full sized usb ports (one or two, i have yet to decide and we are discussing cassing)
keyboard backlight is under software control, i would clasify that feature as must have and can only think of a few devices on the market that dont have this feature, power consumtion should be minimal, i could give estimites but it depends on the keyboard and its layout, the lcd screen backlight will consume more power than the keyboard
that link didnt work for me, do you know if they do 6-8 layer boards. what is thier turn around time and do the solder the parts on. i generally dont like using US companies for this type of stuff due to thier exscive cost and slow turn around times, i generally find asia to be significantly cheaper however the only US companies i have seen are the ones with the bugets to advertise
free space in the case is not up to me, its up to the case designer. i con build it to be fleixible or small or powerfull xut not all at onec, there has to be a comprimise. personally i would rather supply the hub to ou rather than you buying it as i know it will work and i can egineer it to fit in propell.
i am using usb as a universal interconnect at the moment and i really really hate having to break out a 1.5m usb cable to plug in a flash disk, why cant i just put a full sized socket in the thing
it sounds like you have done somthing like this before, care to elaborate. you might want to get in contact with me if you want to get up to speed if you dont want to read everything up to this point (alot of i can be skipped)
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Ok, full size USB is a must. For the sake of a few MM, no point in using ruddy miniUSB.
I'm still going to agree with Neko, ATA is faster than the 16bit PCMIA CF, USB is faster than the 16bit PCMCIA CF, and it's better to put our main drive on the storage medium with the best "value for money."
If you've still got a zaurus when you get the PPZ, you've still got a home for your CF peripherals. I sure as heck don't plan to throw away Cortana when I get this device. If your Z has a CF wifi card, you can always connect it to the wifi integral to the PPZ and share your 3g connection over the 2 devices.
If you make the conectors for Dpad and Trackball diagonal, then they can be placed in both positions without issue, by folding the cable.
Why do you want to remove the Phone? if only a few people want it gone, then it'll be more expensive to set up the second soldering program than to just leave it in and not use it. It won't save you any serious amount of board space, an you can't really use the control IO for much else. Better just to keep it, it's better than that old Nokia 6230i you've been using.
Software power control is more useful than hardware anyway, you can program automatic controls etc. . . So that the wifi shuts down automatically after power reaches a certain level, and restart again when power is restored. Useful for a server application etc.
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it sounds like you have done somthing like this before, care to elaborate. you might want to get in contact with me if you want to get up to speed if you dont want to read everything up to this point (alot of i can be skipped)
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I wasn't very involved in the project, and it is a fairly simple device..
I don't know if you ever heard of a Swiss company call Mediaphonics.. They made a device which they called "Phonerider" which in later incarnations was a USB device that allowed us to develop a call center solution that would work with almost any type of environment, not forcing our customers to by a new switch in order to get all the fancy bells and whistles.. Well Mediaphonics went belly up, and the Phonerider device had various bugs that were never fixed, so we with the help of SMT designed our own. Alot of our effort was in doing the drivers. Unfortunately windows only right now.
I do know that they served us well, I also know that the cost per unit is very reasonable. The time to develop and deploy was about 6 months.
SMT's web site indicates that they partner with various companies world wide, including asian companies. They claim they can offer a packaged deal, including the case and assembly. They also say that it doesn't matter much to them if you are doing a prototype, one off, or hundreds of units.
They also claim to have simulation capabilities.
I tried the link and it worked for me. Maybe FS or Neko can give it a look to see if SMT is worth pursueing. I was mainly mentioning them as a possible build source in the states for people, not as a replacement for your choice.
I work for a software developer mainly with IVR systems. Lately (unfortunately) it's been mostly windows based development :-( So, not much hardware expertise here.
Bill
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well thats handy. i am looking for software people at the moment as well for the rest of the porting (i prefer to do hardware)
perfect world i would outsourec everything but i dont have the cash for that
got the link working. these guys seem like a design service which is nice but not within the budget set for this progect, the other problem is i dont think it really adresses how we manufacture the thing. i dont want to handel the money at all, i would just rather give the details to where you can order your own one from (this is where the ezpcb guys are good) if we did use these guys we will need to negotiate somthing like that however by the sounds of it we can also get cases thregh these guys so it may be worth it
i will add the link to the mystical wiki that few have seen
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ok chipset update time
i am thinking for the wifi we use the zydas chipset as its nica an smoll (BGA one chip package) and has usb and CF connections http://www.zydas.com.tw/product/ZD1211.asp (http://www.zydas.com.tw/product/ZD1211.asp)
i think that we should chuck the CF on the ATA and this on the CF as we can get the full 802.11G speed out o it without sacrificing a usb port
next is bluetooth, i am thinknig we sohuld use one with EDR (so basically a 2.0 device) and chuck it on the usb 1.1 interface as that wont be routed to the outside world (its embarrising to have it on this chip )
i will think about how to attach the radio but that all depends on how it gets connected, if we do use the dual proc then perhaps we can make it look like sram or make use of shared ddr ram or somthing, need more docs basically. however even if we lose 1 usb 2.0 port its fine as we have another that can sit on the back
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I'm going to guess by "Radio" you mean the MXC300. As far as I can tell from the Universal, Data is sent over USB, while the device is actually CONTROLLED by serial over an SPI link. (An internal Null Modem link?) Looks to me that the RPU emulates a serial modem over the SPI, while larger amounts of data, such as broadband internet data and images are fed over the USB, which is connected by a CPU-host to RPU-client link.
That, anyway, is how HTC do it. Looks good to me, as the MXC300 has USB2-Client, and if we throw wifi onto CF (Memory bus! >.< XP - Neko, THAT time was a joke.) that gives us a spare USB2-480. If we flash the CPU Bootloader over USB and then lock it RO, there's nothing to stop us doing the same for the RPU ROM, although since it's not going to be as much of a security risk - It'll be flashed over the USB RPU-CPU link and only flashable from inside the PPZ OS- I don't think we should make it a permanent rom like the PPZ bootloader. After all, if we can't get a 3G stack immediately, then it'll have to be reflashed later (With a simpler ROM in the meantime to provide GSM, GPRS and EDGE.)
CF-ATA hooray! That gives us our good fast-MDD support.
EDIT: Dual processor. . That wouldn;t work if you're talking MXC and iMX. The processors then run a shared OS and tasks, not a Radio ROM and a PDA Rom. And if you mean 2xiMX, then I'm starting to seriously question that. to have a phone, we're talking both a CPU and RPU as it is, and 3 processors looks to be a BAD battery drain.
Also, while I'm editing, if anyone wondered, RPU = Radio Processing Unit, or the MXC300-30 Phone chip.
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i think that we should chuck the CF on the ATA and this on the CF as we can get the full 802.11G speed out o it without sacrificing a usb port
1. Do we have drivers for it in CF mode? The only open source drivers I've seen is for the chip in USB mode, and I'm not sure how easy it is to modify to be used for the chip in CF mode.
2. Wouldn't even Wifi use cause slowdown, since the pins are shared with the RAM? For normal internet surfing, it shouldn't be a problem, but what about video streaming and gaming over Wifi?
3. Why all this worry about 'sacrificing' a USB port? It'd be usefull to have two 480Mbps ports to copy between two mass-storage devices, but I don't see that coming up too often. For most usage I can envision for this, a built-in USB hub hooked to the other USB port should be sufficient.
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So what kind of driver support does this wifi adapter have?? Can we get rf-mon?
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He's right you know. An internal USB hub, two port, would share nicely between the RPU and the Wifi. . . 54MBps and 2MBps. . . Doesn't total enough to knock out a full USB load, is it? That would leave the other full USB free, and the CF/Memory link STILL untouched, although I thought that very little hit would come to the Memory from CF?
Although on the other hand, GPU and CPU memory access WOULD cause a huge hit to the CF bus. . . We wouldn't get a good speed that way. . . Better to go with the USB hub option. . . ?
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So what kind of driver support does this wifi adapter have?? Can we get rf-mon?
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=136385\")
[a href=\"http://zd1211.ath.cx/]http://zd1211.ath.cx/[/url]
http://sourceforge.net/projects/zd1211 (http://sourceforge.net/projects/zd1211)
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Well after looking at the docs for the CF slot i relise just how wierd it is, yes it does share pins with main mem but for data transfer (not signalling) its on its own bus so data transfer between the cpu and ram and cpu and wifi can happen at the same time
the kexec stuff can execute any binary that can run on the raw hardware, it dosent matter what type of OS it is
i dont belive allowing the radio to be reflashed is a bad idea at all,even if we could reflash it from the PC that would be fine as it is seperate from the rest of the hardmare and cant be used to comrimise the OS unless a bug in the firmware is found (in which case you are stuffed ethier way
the wifi chip can do rfmon and station however i am unsure of the status of CF mode, from what i have seen it is unsupported however it is apparently easy to add support once they see some actual hardware with the chip in it
thoght i would also add in the transfer rate of CF, CF is 2byte * 2Mhz = 16MB/s multiply that by 8 and you get 128Mbps whech gives us some lee way. this thing will be able to stream moives and play them back over wifi due to the raw speed of the RAM ond the inuilt video card regardless of how the wifi card is attached compared to a pocket pc) this i due to the CF and mem bieng shared on the xscales and while we have tho same thing in part we do not take as heavey performance hit from it as well as having better and faster chipsets to support the cpu (eg ram, video card)
i normall refer to giving up a usb port when we only have one less as you never know if somthing comes along that will need that usb port, thier are stil some things i havent speced that for some reason wight need it, personally we only need one but 2 would be nice for things like dvd burners and usb storage at the same time but it can to a certin degree be solvud with a hub
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For those that don't get the CF interface, from what I can translate of Neko and DB's technobabble (In which I am fluent OUTSIDE of this thread. XP)
The CF has a separate Data bus to the Main Memory, however the interrupts and addressing are shared. This is a better solution than the XScale because it means that there is very little overhead into the memory bus by CF.
Keep it and put wifi on it. That way we get a USB port free again. (We have 3, the Bluetooth needs one and the Phone needs one - A hub would add an extra power drain and would lower the total overhead on that USB port. If we can avoid it, we should.)
I'd say make it flashable from PPZOS only. It saves us having to try and hook up an extra USB client port externally for the phone, when it'll very rarely need to be flashed: The phone needs a USB client port connected to the iMX anyway, so just flash from that.
Waaaaaait. You were mentioning flashing the PPZ over USB to install the initial bootloader. . Wouldn't THAT need USB Client support?
I can't remember whether I already mentioned this. . . How interface heavy and size heavy is RFID? Alot of people are likely to use it, I know I would. . . And unlike most technologies, it's both proven AND up-to-date (Usually, it's one or the other. Look at x86 vs PPC-64!)
I'll have a look for a part.
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Just for posterity, and because I'm bored. . ..
CPU: Freescale iMX30 - 533mhz ARM11
RPU: Freescale MXC300-30 3G ARM11 with StarCore DSP. 533mhz.
RChipset: Freescale RFX300-20 3G Radio Platform.
RAM: 2Gb (512MB) Laptop DDR266 Memory in 2x1Gb chips.
HDD: Internal ATA CF/MD interface, User provided Card
SD: 2x 4bit SD slot, SDIO capable with 3rd Party Commercial stack.
NAND: 16MB RO for Bootloader only. Will kExec any Kernel from a variety of Media.
RFlash/Mem: Indeterminate NAND and SDRAM.
Wifi: Zydas ZD1211 chip on CF16: 802.11G-54, WPA.
BT: Unknown Bluetooth V2.0 on USB-1.1
Rad: RPU connected over SPI, Audio, and USB480
IRDA: Sir/Fir?
Keyb: Internal Backlit KBD,
Mous: Internal Trackball with "Select" function and illumination,
DPAD: Internal with OK/Canc.
Roll: On Landscape Rear.
L/R On Landscape Rear
ACC: 3D Accelerometer.
BIO: swipe-bar Fingerprint scanner on SPI.
AUD: 5.1 with Microphone, and BlueTooth routing.
MSC: 3.5-4 inch, VGA, with integrated Resistive Touch Layer.
SSC: 4bit Serial on rear of device, for Phone display and viewfinder for Camera shots.
CAM: On main screen panel, above TFT in portrait mode. Supports Video and Stills.
CPLD to act as Programmable ASIC for SPI interconnection to devices.
Possible MicroProcessor to control Buttons and roller for use with phone when PDA disabled.
External full-size 480MBPS USB2 port.
Video out, Possibly 768i HDTV compatible, will be used for connection to external monitor.
Socket for network operator SIM card.
Security:
Key-signing of OS to prevent Unauthorised OS replacement.
Possible GSM trace functions including local MAC addresses and signal tower strengths.
Biometric identification of allowed users.
1800mAh Battery: Easily available Digital Videocam model.
Customised Aluminium case.
Still no decision reached between Clamshell and "Sidekick" forms. Possibilty discussed of making interchangeable.
This is all supposed to be on the wiki, but it's not stable yet, so posting here the latest version just for clarity and safety.
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good rundown of whats in it
RFID now thats one i havent heard yet, but is it worth it. wost rfid solutions for identity are implemented badly and it hardly makes a good password thinngy (ie swipe for acsess)
i dont think it would be too hard to add but i dont see much point. perhaps if you can point out a specific porpuse then i might consider it however you may be able to just use the sound jack and a bit of extra hardware to dump the data to the Z
yes we would need usb client, funny thing is that we have a usb OTG port, so it can be done its all a matter of cabeling (i happen to have a cable with the correct socket on both ends here, it has no practicle porpuse for most things on the market but it would be handy for the inital flashing)
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And the guy who wanted USB client came out tops in the end after all.
Things that would be useful for RFID:
CAT scans. And DOG scans for that matter as well.
Some supermarkets are beginning to use RFID, would be helpful for me to stop having to manually enter barcodes and PID's.
For me, I'm probably doing a degree in cybernetics in the Autumn, and there's been some experimentation with RFID-based User interfaces. It's all very cool. XD
Computer Labelling: I'm planning to move all my labels to RFID as a theft security measure.
It's Currently-Existing-Technology, that looks to be a useful thing in the next few years, better to add it now, while at least some of us can be using it, then when it gets even more popular it's already there. Same with everything, if it's big and expensive, forget it, and there Are external USB readers available. There were people asking for a barcode scanner earlier, this is just the latest version of that.
Oh, and Thankyou. It's nothing. I'll do a fully-detailed-paragraph one again when everything is finalised. ^^
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Things that would be useful for RFID:
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ok, so RFID sounds cool. Now, which one of the at-least-three commonly used proprietary non-interoperable variants do you want to deploy and hope that the IEEE don't subsequently ratify an incompatible variant?
sorry, but I think this one really is a pipe dream.
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Can anyone say HD-DVD (Blueray), HDTV, Video Cassette, Flash Memory, Floptical. . . .
:/
Why are corporations such retards?
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I've just thought of another advantage this is going to have for the OpenEmbedded community.
The biggest problem with the Universal is that the Phone/Modem doesn't work, because the Data protocol is unknown.
When our Phone ROM is built, it would make a good base for modification to create a replacement of the Proprietary phone ROM of the HTC Universal (XDA Exec) Because so far, From the XDA series, all the PDA code is being replaced by Open Source stuff, but the ROM for the Phone/Modem Processor (Usually also ARM based) is the same as under Windows. This could pave the way for a fully open-source XDA, too. ^^
The hardware list is NEARLY finalised (Just my last minute bickering and stupid ideas) so we need to consider the software for this.
Unless someone wants to finish either Qommunicator or Guylhem's ZeDialler, We'll need to use X or GPE for Gommunicator. I like GPE best, so that's good for me anyway. ^^;;
I assume we'll need to make a modification to GPELogin for the Fingerprint scan. . . Similarly, we'll need to make quite a few modifications to Gommunicator to handle redirecting to our various Audio IO. . . For which I still reccomend a Jack port. The audio recording guys (Like me) Will also love the coder who ports that full stop. (The best recording software on Linux uses Jack.) And for dealing with CallerID, as well as Bluetooth CID display (WatchPenguin, and the cool bluetooth headsets and other handsfree kits with displays on)
I think it's about time we started a second thread to discuss the two ROMS, bootloader, and preinstalled software.
Next person to have a comment, put it in a new "PocketPenguin software" Thread or something. DB, you ever ask for the special forum? Or should I?
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Personally i want a daemon that talks over dbus to handel the phone stuff
finger print reader stuff should be a PAM module, that is what it was designed for
i forgot about the fourm (been setting up a dns server, MPD, ldap and kerberos on my Slugs)
anyway time to split the fourm up i saw so look for the sperate section at (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showforum=151)
i still feel the OTG guy lost, there is still no mini usb socket and you need a special cable
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Maybe, but the point is he can still get his client support. . .?
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i guess in a way, its not pretty but if you have the cabling
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But he WILL have the cabling, because apparently we need the cable to flash it in the first place.
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im just going to drop this for the moment because i dont see the point in aurging, there are still some things to be worked out so we will know in the future
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Meh. Whatever. ^^
That can be sorted out nearer the time.
Maybe we should close this thread? With all the specific threads, seems to me a better example of organisation to keep everything split up, rather than continue with the combined (And ridiculously long) thread.
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good idea, split the threads and have a recap as the first post, updating it as infomation comes along