OESF Portables Forum
Model Specific Forums => Sharp Zaurus => Zaurus - pdaXrom => Topic started by: Laze on June 12, 2006, 04:10:51 pm
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Sash has got a job and will be spending sometime on getting settled in with the new job and stuff so there might be a small development stop during the next 2-3 weeks.
After that all should be back to normal.
Once more i would like to remind everybody about the need for donations for hadware and help keep pdaXrom on the track. The new job will no cause pdaXrom development delays - but at the same it will not pay for anything on pdaXrom development.
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Sash has got a job and will be spending sometime on getting settled in with the new job and stuff so there might be a small development stop during the next 2-3 weeks.
After that all should be back to normal.
Once more i would like to remind everybody about the need for donations for hadware and help keep pdaXrom on the track. The new job will no cause pdaXrom development delays - but at the same it will not pay for anything on pdaXrom development.
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Is there any way we could spread the development between any willing members of the community to allow Sash more freedom?
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aieee!
Good for sashz! He deserves some decent pay. bad for us, I fear, though. This kind of announcement makes me nervous. especaillly right after a discussion of "what happens if sashz vanishes...
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aieee!
Good for sashz! He deserves some decent pay. bad for us, I fear, though. This kind of announcement makes me nervous. especaillly right after a discussion of "what happens if sashz vanishes...
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This is why I'm hopeful that Laze and Sash will see the benefits of opening up pdaXrom and encouraging others to participate. I know the community are very much behind them, so I don't see why they should fear that they'll lose overall control. Never underestimate loyalty.
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I'm just being a pessimist (read guy who buys stuff from sharp repeatedly ). They have already released some good stuff for building pdaXrom, and I'm sure that if this was really any more of a problem than laze says it is they'd do just what you suggest on their way out.
Honestly, ATM I'm more concerned with apps than with OS progress.
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This may actually be good news for pdaxrom in the long run. There was always some concern how long a fine programmer like Sash would continue working for so little pay when he could likely make a lot more money elsewhere. It sounds like he has found a job that will improve his situation but still allow him a lot of time for pdaxrom. That sounds like a more stable future to me. Best of luck to Sash.
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This may actually be good news for pdaxrom in the long run.
Perhaps, perhaps not.
If Sash's job prevents him spending time on it and as I understand it, he's the only core developer, it's bad news.
Are there any other core developers?
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This may actually be good news for pdaxrom in the long run.
Perhaps, perhaps not.
If Sash's job prevents him spending time on it and as I understand it, he's the only core developer, it's bad news.
Are there any other core developers?
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I think you could be right Omro, I would like a stable rom, but if Sashz is working on 7 or 8 different models and doing a day job it is not going to happen soon for anyone.
Diesel1.
PS Omro, I like your persistence and patience!
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This may actually be good news for pdaxrom in the long run.
Perhaps, perhaps not.
If Sash's job prevents him spending time on it and as I understand it, he's the only core developer, it's bad news.
Are there any other core developers?
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I think you could be right Omro, I would like a stable rom, but if Sashz is working on 7 or 8 different models and doing a day job it is not going to happen soon for anyone.
Diesel1.
PS Omro, I like your persistence and patience!
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Well guys, being only drammatic we don' t solve anything.
We have a very good Forum, we have a lot of people contributing, helping all toghether and beginning to learn more about PdaXrom, i think we can do a lot.
After that Laze has not said that PdaXrom will stop definitely? Or not?
Only that Sashz has a new work, i think that we have only to be happy about that!
I' m always on the Cacko channel, if you want to partecipate more like me, come there i' m always there. Forum is a good tool, but, logically chat is better!
BYEZ!
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I had better admit, right at the start, I am a little disgruntled. I did, personally (and quite some time ago) myself contribute money directly to Sash, but that was back in the time that I thought he would appreciate and allow others to help him. He told me that he didn't know how to use cvs nor ssh) but I offered to show him how to use them, because with the use of these tools, the project, which I liked, could easily be opened up (as many other projects have successfully been opened) so we could all contribute.
I offered this help both because I had the machines and web bandwidth so I could host them (and the haard disk space), but also, because I had personally been a release engineer. I am retired now, because of ill health, so I have even more time.
Why did I need to admit that at the start? Because I'm mad. Twice, I tried to take his sourve releases, and clean them up and put them into a cvs archive, so we could all contribute, but both times, he simply ignored my patches until he could bring out a new release, and that new release totally rejected all my patches. I ffered my patches either as the cvs archive, or as a set of patches, so He could take or rejct them as he wanted, but he simply ignored them all, didn't even comment on them. How can you contribute to a person who won't communicate and who rejects your attempt to fix things, by ignoring you? The only thing he didn't ignore was my check!
So, this constitutes my complaints against sashz, because while I would love to contribute to this project, sashz won't use any tools that allow community contributions, and doesn't integrate patches, and takes weeks even to answer simple emails. If we could only get evena smallish crew of folks who wanted to work on this together, I would coach all who needed it in cvs and ssh operations. We'd need to start with one dumpo o f source code. Sashz's code, in the past, has been littered with little local bugs. I would offer (once only, because I actually did this twice in the past, and sashz ignored both atttempts) to clean the sourcves up, so they could serve as a clean development base. I would onlyu ask that folks agree to try. No money wanted, either, folks. If you send it, the checks will decorate my circular file (I won't even bother to send them back!). Just be ready to contribute, and share your work!
Well, anyone want to do this? I would ONLY let sash in if he agrees to share his work!
If you want to do this, write me. In fact, maybe would should start a new topic here, it I can get at least 4-6 folks woh want to code.
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hmmm ... dunno if its an entirely good idea to have a pdaXOrom (O fr Open? ) ...
But hey, if this helps make pdaXrom move a tad faster ... count me in.
I do C/C++ coding, but uses Windows.
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I dont want to join the team to plot against sash (Not saying that is your intention chuckr)...
But I'm not one to build an application from scratch... but I can review code and look for flaws and glitchs... So if this is a team with sash involved I would be willing to help out...
Almost like a trial and error kind of guy... :-)
Sash keep up the good work though... and congrats on the new job!
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How the heck is opening up pdaXrom to a collaborative means of progressing it a plot against anyone? Surely collaboration is merely that, a joint effort towards a common goal!
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While I have much appreciation for the excellent job Sashz has been doing with pdaXrom, I also feel that allowing the (large) community to help out with development by using some sort of version control system (such as CVS) would speed up development towards a very stable distribution.
pdaXrom has a lot of potential, but at the moment it has many small bugs that could be fixed quite quickly by the users who are affected by them who could then share them with the rest of the community instead of having to wait a month or two until the next release (which often comes with a whole new set of bugs).
This could also help out Sashz who would have more time to work on new features, instead of having to worry about fixing all the bugs in the old release.
It would also be easier to develop extra features by anyone, as people would all be working with the same version of code, and their changes could be integrated easily using the tools provided by CVS (or other version control system).
I have no problem with Sashz and Laze still having full control over the integration of patches, such as what happens with the main linux kernel, where the core developers have to approve patches, but anyone can submit them and people can see the submitted patches, and bugs get fixed very quickly.
That being said, congratulations on the new job Sashz, I hope it goes well.
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Just curious to ask. Long time ago when I went to the pdaXrom old site I saw pics of numerous developers. So I was thinking it was all development team work. And the few donations i've done was also meant to the team. But what is really going on now? I also got an impression that it's become a one man band. Anyone can explain this to me, please?
I'm also going for the idea to have a working cvs-like thing. Since it is one of the most advanced projects of embedded Linux, there will be tons of testers, contributors and a good team of developers. So what's the bad thing actually? Why not?
Sashz is great, and a good team is even better for sure. I think this is what most pdaXrom folks want.
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There are a lot of things that should be changed.... from documentation to collaborative work tools.
Why here it is so different from the other great Open Source project??
I know that in other environment where they weren't open enough a fork happened.....
Is forking project a blasphemy?
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UHM...... this time, i have to be onest, i begin to feel a little tired.
Like Chuck.r it 's 1 month that i' m continuosly asking about a PdaXrom account to load all the stuff and midifications i did to the Builders rules.ipk files and sources for the all new packages i compiled.
The only persons i find on the cacko chat are always Hrw and Pgas, no other developers.
Always Hrw helping with config troubles and Pgas helping with the Account' s one.
THX a lot to this 2 one.
I' m beginning to chat with GPE guys, who are every time answering me.
To talk with Sashz it' s becoming more and more difficult.
ROM Comunities are being everytime getting more confusing.
Some posts ago CoreDump too, didn' t have a bad idea to fuse OE and PdaXrom distributions:
You know, you *could* use OE to compile pdaXrom. While a few things might be missing currently, it wouldn't be much of a problem integrating them (as you already have all patches required for the missing bits anyway).
With OE you *could* have cutting edge stuff (or not, you can hard-wire the version of each single package if desired) while beeing binary compatible to the large OZ feeds. I believe pdaXrom users would benefit greatly from that move.
From Sashz no response.
This is from Meanie:
If we all cooperate, then the Zaurus will be more fun and productive for us all.
I agree totally.
Other from Hrw:
OE/OZ repository is open for anyone. pdaX repo is closed and only Sash has access to it. He release dump of it from time to time as pdaXrom-builder.
It' s the reality.
I begin to feel a little upset for your closed behaviour Sashz, now as i said we have a very good Forum people a lot of persons wanting to help, but it seems you don' t want this to happen.
With this behaviour we cannot grow and this time i agree totally with chuck.r
I' m very happy that you have a new work, surely with only donations you could not live, this is logical.
But if helping you means to hunt you and Laze, i don' t want to do like that, because i too, have my work and i' m busy.
Seeking you this way bring only me and other People in confusion, because i can' t correct suddenly the errors i do everytime with dependencies and configurations of the packages.
And as a beginner i do a lot! EHEHEH!! :-)
That way brings me and other contributors to make a lot of confusion and confuse all the PdaXrom people and Pgas it' s being tired to do the contributor filters to the mail.pdaxrom.org logically.
This is really what' s going on for me.
BYEZ!
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Well said, Xromer.
I don't even know we can "compile pdaXrom using OE"... Stupid me. (But where is the documentation saying this or is there any collaborative attempt to do this? )
Hope Sashz and others are not taking these critical comments personally. I believe they are aiming at improving the way things work here, but by no means the person doing that.
Truly, Sashz has always been doing surprisingly great work. You are still the hero behind pdaXrom. Without this pdaXrom project I won't get so into Linux and Zaurus. I'm very much fed up with Sharp ROM's inflexibility and (to me nonsensical) constraints on Z's functionality. So pdaXrom and OE (or together) will be THE way to go.
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Well said, Xromer.
I don't even know we can "compile pdaXrom using OE"... Stupid me. (But where is the documentation saying this or is there any collaborative attempt to do this? )
Hope Sashz and others are not taking these critical comments personally. I believe they are aiming at improving the way things work here, but by no means the person doing that.
Truly, Sashz has always been doing surprisingly great work. You are still the hero behind pdaXrom. Without this pdaXrom project I won't get so into Linux and Zaurus. I'm very much fed up with Sharp ROM's inflexibility and (to me nonsensical) constraints on Z's functionality. So pdaXrom and OE (or together) will be THE way to go.
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Well said Zdevil hope Sashz and other PdaXrom guys (if there are any, 'cause i ' ve never seen other than Sashz and Laze) will listen to this.
As from OZ guys like CoreDump and Hrw there is an open way for colllaboration as i saw from the posts.
The thing that i would like to have would be only one ROM and big comunity of reference.
I know that it' s very difficult to have it, but even more collaboration could be better or not?
Think like having all people energy, efforts and donations directed in a more near ROM developing stuff, wouldn' t it be cool?
Having the Documentation and Feed of the various developing branch in one solution?
As i said all the comunities are confused, i see lots of OZ-PdaXrom posts not bringing to anywhere only to useless fights, where we could unite the efforts.
I see people get confused for the amount of contrib, feeds and etc.
And people having only 1 Zauri like me passing from one Distro to other having to do all the things from the begin due to lacks from 1 part and the other.
For me it' s only a waste of resources like Hrw, CoreDump, GPE-Guys, Sashz and very good resources as i saw.
Think about Bitbake with Menuconfig builder like the Pengutronix one and PdaXrom with all the packages like Gtk+ up to date like the OZ one.
I saw a very good guide about bitbake from Hrw but i find my self not yet confident, with bitbake as i was before passing to PdaXrom.
Maybe i' m the lame beginner that still need graphic interface like Pengutronix one. :-)
Hrw i promise i will enhance my skill studying. :-)
Maybe i'm a dreamer, but sometimes dreams come true, not? HIHIHI!
I don't even know we can "compile pdaXrom using OE"... Stupid me. (But where is the documentation saying this or is there any collaborative attempt to do this? )
Zdevil: Refer to CoreDump for this as he told it but i think that shell be many solutions to fuse the maximum from one Distro to other.
I heard that there' s people using one distribution kernel with other kernel tree; but....... do we have to arrive to this to have one solution???? I think it' s crazy!
Bah!!
I throw it there, let me know if i'm right or wrong.
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I am a real fan of Sashz, but I also tire of the "one man show." On the other hand, it is hard to complain when he does such good work.
There has, however, been some real bitterness in the past when someone forked someone else's ROM and started on their own way with it.
Laze, what do you think of all of this talk of taking pdaXrom and cleaning up code and putting it into some CVS system and turning it into a group effort? Do you see this as a good idea or a bad one? Why? I kind of consider you as Sashz's "agent," so maybe you could give some opinions here.
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This is why I'm hopeful that Laze and Sash will see the benefits of opening up pdaXrom and encouraging others to participate. I know the community are very much behind them, so I don't see why they should fear that they'll lose overall control. Never underestimate loyalty.
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Hell, I'd be willing to help - I've been an AIX C developer for the past 13 years, and I'm pretty good with low-level UNIX stuff.
I only got my C1000 last week, and I have to say I'm a bit cheesed off! As a newbie I'm finding it really difficult to take-in all the different sources of information (some of which is old or inaccurate) - of all the ROMs I liked the look of pdaXrom best, but at the moment I'm put off by it, since for a newbie it's very frustrating; numerous feeds, difficult to determine ROM version compatibility, website info out of date, docs out of date. I also don't understand the rationale of putting a major functional change (kernel and boot mechanism) in half-way thru a beta release i.e. 1.1.0beta3->1.1.0beta4.
However, I'd be happy to help sort some of these things out.
I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm just a newbie frustrated with my new "toy"!
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I only got my C1000 last week, and ...
<snip>
...I'm just a newbie frustrated with my new "toy"!
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You see...it's a mess... the newbies (McChubby, you're not exactly a noob...) are discouraged: me too, after 3 years I'm feeling some frustration!
IMHO we don't need further forks, instead some merging.
Two versions based on the same kernel / baselayout would be enough :
ONE for beginners and PDA-users
(Being that Cacko appears/is mostly unmantained, I'd say OPIE with 2.6 kernel)
ONE with X server
(Summing up the best of both worlds: GPE / pdaXrom)
Then I'd split the developers at least in two teams: one team could concentrate on the Linux/Kernel/optimization issues while the other could port/patch the applications independently.
The work on the applications could be then partially done by a large number of advanced users...
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Hell, I'd be willing to help - I've been an AIX C developer for the past 13 years, and I'm pretty good with low-level UNIX stuff.
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Just my 2 (Euro)cents
Ant
P.S. Don't forget a decent, unified, Bugtracker
P.P.S.
My Kernel-DreamTeam : Sashz, maslowsky, RPurdie
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I'm new to pdaXrom as I've jsut gotten my C1000 - but I had a 5600 for years before that, so have seen the community grow and mature during that time.
on 5600 I used Wapaton -> which sadly now is abandonware. Chaos was a student, and his studies caught up with him leaving no time to continue the ROM. It stuck at 1.6.1, and although he released the sourced tarballs + root fs -> as far as I know no one has picked up the project. This is even after I put together a full dev package. ( a Zdsl image w/ cross compile tools + Qemu so even windows users could develop) The interest simply wasn't there -- even though it had become the majority Rom for 5600.
Sash seems much more on top of his game, and I do not fear that this project will turn belly up. As far as confusion over the project, pdaXrom is so much different from the normal Sharp from, (or even Opie) that there is a slight learning curve.
The hardest part is figuring out the feed situation, a problem which stems from the migration to the new site. That is a common problem during any site migration. But even with the small amount of time sorting out which feeds are actually needed - I prefer it immensley over killez and the entire sharp family! At least I know the packages in the feeds I have will work with my machine/rom --- I would constantly have problems with my 5600 getting packages that wouldn't work because they were packaged in a strange way, or meant for a different rom but never stated that anywhere.
By Sash keeping things locked down, there is some kind of quality control and sanity check. Maybe not the kind we'd rather see - but at least anything that gets released is released as quality. One of the main requests I see about pdaXrom is for applications. But with the builder anyone can compile those. (I think what is needed there is a very good How-To for it- then Sash wouldn't need to get back answering so many questions, since it seems he doesn't)
The one thing I don't get is refusing free offers to cleanup code, etc.. , but it's hard to complain when we went from a stable point release to a beta 4 with an entirley new kernel +_ Boot Loader (a first in the Zaurii family!) in just a handful of months
Congradualtions Sash, everyone deserves a break - I can't wait for 2.6 + U-boot to mature.
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By Sash keeping things locked down, there is some kind of quality control and sanity check. Maybe not the kind we'd rather see - but at least anything that gets released is released as quality.
What about the bugs which have been in pdaXrom in every single release, beta or stable, I've ever seen? None of the windows are sized correctly on opening, the onscreen keyboard doesn't even fit the screen, the power on/off has been unstable (critical for a pda), the keymap is always wrong, right shift never seems to work out of the box, etc etc etc There aren't exactly quality release points. In order to make any realise of pdaXrom useable, you've had to massively adjust it, Meanie has an entire page on how to do this on his site. That shouldn't be necessary, though all hail Meanie for his site and brilliant work towards making the Z incredible. :-)
The one thing I don't get is refusing free offers to cleanup code, etc..
Exactly.
pdaXrom is brilliant, it *was* light years ahead of the other ROMs. But I recently looked at OZ/GPE recently (something I would never have done if pdaXrom had realised a stable, bug fixed version ages ago). Look at OZ/GPE and you'll see clean, fast, stable, and while it has some bugs, there are none of the stupid, lingering, should have been fixed ages ago before moving on, kind of bugs.
If anyone cares to look back, there was a thread asking for money for pdaXrom's survival.
link (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=14427)
I suggested a number of things, but mainly that in exchange for this money, we, the users and contributors, should have some say in the direction of pdaXrom or there should be more openness from pdaXrom. This idea was stomped upon by the developers and by a lot of people from the forum at that time. That was in August of last year. I don't actually see pdaXrom any further forward in the intervening months, despite a lot of people donating and I know a lot did. Infact, despite numerous betas, there's nothing closer to a stable, everyday release unless you're prepared to do a lot of tinkering once you flash.
The closed nature and lack of accountability for the money is why I think myself, and hopefully many others, stopped donating. A huge mistake was made there, this Rom has an enthusiastic and willing community of people happy to devote time to coding and bug fixings and others who would give money when they couldn't code themselves. What a mistake letting that go to waste. To be honest, as someone who did contribute money, I feel a little short changed.
Anyway. I really hope we can all move forwards. I hope it doesn't come to forking pdaXrom or abandoning it, but if OZ/GPE continues to run as well on my C1000 as it does now, I'll not look back unless something major happens with pdaXrom.
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Gotta say I'm a bit confused with this thread. The main theme seems to be 'should we/ shouldn't we fork pdaXrom?' and surely this has just come about because pdaXrom can do some things that OZ currently can't. If thats the case then whats stopping said features being ported over to OZ/GPE? It sounds as if somebody needs to organise an easy (graphical) build interface for bitbake making porting as easy as under pdaXrom, or maybe better docs is all thats required there.
We must try to avoid further forks at all costs. In the case of open source you can't have too many cooks to spoil the broth, but too many distros will when we only have such as small community of developers.
I am very happy to hear that GPE development is coming along at a good pace and that the developers are responsive as this is surely one of the most important (if not THE most important, alongside OZ) project in the Linux PDA world. I have high hopes for GPE 2.8 and GPE-PIM and I think these projects will very shortly transform our Z's into seriously good PDAs devices as well as being incredibly cool portable workstations.
What does worry me is this
https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19942 (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19942)
What?? Hrw is hardly using his Z and is struggling to find the motivation to build or test any new images? That really is strange as whenever I have been on this forum or any of the Z irc channels I can always count on Hrw being there to help/ tell me how much he doesn't like ROX's Appdirs If this is still the case then Hrw should voluntarily step down as release manager.
The other thing that worries me is kernel development. It seems that within OZ it is only RP who really does anything. I BADLY want to see proper pxa270 overlay support which is as good as or surpasses 2.4's bvdd but it seems that this isn't a priority for RP. RP, if you're reading, may I may make a suggestion? If we raise some funding would you be able to concentrate on this (and pxa270 freq scaling) so we can get this major obstacle out of the way? Or is there anybody else who think they might be up to this task?
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What does worry me is this
https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19942 (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19942)
What?? Hrw is hardly using his Z and is struggling to find the motivation to build or test any new images? That really is strange as whenever I have been on this forum or any of the Z irc channels I can always count on Hrw being there to help/ tell me how much he doesn't like ROX's Appdirs If this is still the case then Hrw should voluntarily step down as release manager.
The other thing that worries me is kernel development. It seems that within OZ it is only RP who really does anything. I BADLY want to see proper pxa270 overlay support which is as good as or surpasses 2.4's bvdd but it seems that this isn't a priority for RP. RP, if you're reading, may I may make a suggestion? If we raise some funding would you be able to concentrate on this (and pxa270 freq scaling) so we can get this major obstacle out of the way? Or is there anybody else who think they might be up to this task?
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I think this is more a question for the general forums than this one or any distribution specific forum. Have you asked in the general software or hardware specific forums?
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No, but I'll repeat my suggestion in a new thread elsewhere as, to me at least, this is a biggie.
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No, but I'll repeat my suggestion in a new thread elsewhere as, to me at least, this is a biggie.
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Everyone has their personal wants and needs :-)
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"If you want to have it done, do it yourself". What prevents anyone from starting developing? pdaXrom, Opie, GPE, whatever... pick the one you'd like more and improve upon it.
-albertr
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Ok:
1) Look, i dont' t want to say that Sashz hasn' t done anything, it' s very far from what i think.
2) I would like to make people who' s not programming how is incredible the work you have to do to maintain a distribution, only studying the Builder' s and Pengutronix tools to compile the programs automatically took hours and hours to me.
So i cannot imagine what Sashz did to put these things toghether.
Yes, there where money and code contributions but i think (with respect of that as i also contribute with money and then cross-compilations) that the effort of the people like Sashz,Hrw,Florian,Neal and all other free developers it' s unpayable.
Also because i look at it from a knowledge stuff before all.
3) The photo i did of the OpenEmbedded environment now, i see it' s true from your posts.
I' m very glad that, the ball i threw, was collected by so much people.
This is the proof (if ever we should need) of how many people is ready to contribute and seek the OE environment like me.
For this reason i don' t want all to be thrown off.
We have the best PDA i' ve ever seen, THE ZaUrI the real cross-point between PDA and Notebook.
Excellent developers!
Exciting Forum people!
I can' t see this wasting.
This is what i wanted to say, only this.
If you want to have it done, do it yourself". What prevents anyone from starting developing? pdaXrom, Opie, GPE, whatever... pick the one you'd like more and improve upon it.
-albertr
Look at my signature, sure i began to do it, sure.
But more we are, faster we do.
That' s my opinion.
BYEZ!
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OE/OZ must die!
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OE/OZ must die!
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Hope you' re jocking.
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i sent you PM
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As i come to new workplace we start development with new forces!!!!!!
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Hi Folks,
I have been following this thread, and I think it is raising some great
points, in regard to not only how great pdaXrom is or could become,
but what each user feels is important to him/her.
I would have never bought an SL-6000 if it wasn't for how well pdaXrom
worked on my SL-5500 compared to anything else at the time. I am not
cutting down any of the other OSes, but at that time I needed a completely
reliable X11 platform, no surprise hangs when turning off/on, the ability
to run different WMs, use (the full) gnu-emacs to edit code, build and run
X11 apps on the Z, etc.
I also get pulled away from my Zs for months at a time, and I'm recently
back fully, for at least this summer. I was sorry to see the post about Sashz's
new job on one hand, since I was hoping to see new and better releases for
the SL-6000. On the other hand, I wish him the best of luck in his new job!
I recently tried the pdaXrom live CD for PC, and WOW was that cool and useful.
I did not get around to trying to build apps on it, but I was looking forward to that
capability and future versions.
Anyway, I really hope this effort continues in one way or another.
John
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"If you want to have it done, do it yourself". What prevents anyone from starting developing? pdaXrom, Opie, GPE, whatever... pick the one you'd like more and improve upon it.
-albertr
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131269\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Because not everyone's brain works in the right way to code software.
If everyone could do everything, we'd all code to perfection, paint masterpieces and compose symphonies. Different people have different skills and inate capabilities.
However much a person might long to be able to code brilliantly or understand linux, sometimes they just can't.
The world of computing is divided into two groups:
developer
user
The groups cross over in places, but most users haven't got a clue how to develop and not every user wants to know how to develop. But that doesn't stop their desire to see certain features and functionality being any less valid. Especially if they are the ones paying for the software, in this case when donations are asked for.
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OK,OK i think collaboration it' s impossible.
As i' ve never told anything!
Do not begin another struggle pleeeZe!
BYEZ!
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Because not everyone's brain works in the right way to code software.
<snip>
The groups cross over in places, but most users haven't got a clue how to develop and not every user wants to know how to develop. But that doesn't stop their desire to see certain features and functionality being any less valid. Especially if they are the ones paying for the software, in this case when donations are asked for.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I couldn't agree more. I am a developer/architect - I listen to users needs, and give them feedback on the technical issues resulting from those needs - we agree a set of functionality and timescales. As an architect I also have a plan of how the product line should mature and develop technically (such as new kernel and device support etc.), which the users don't (generally) give a damn about: It's about marrying these two things together and agreeing what we're gonna do. It's whether this development should become more democratic, or not?!
That's the great thing about our world nowadays; communication is open and we can all benefit from each other's field of expertise...
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"If you want to have it done, do it yourself". What prevents anyone from starting developing? pdaXrom, Opie, GPE, whatever... pick the one you'd like more and improve upon it.
-albertr
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131269\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
At the moment with pdaXrom - the lack of a version control system (such as CVS or Subversion) that everyone can contribute to, and obtain the very latest version of code (so any patches that are developed arn't useless or obsolute or would just take too much time to adapt to the latest code, as it seems has happened a few times when people have submitted patches to sashz) is a big problem.
I would also like to write some small utilities, and patch a bunch of stuff with pdaXrom and also add some more ipk packages (I am an electrical engineer and do embedded programming for a living), but as I don't know what is in development, and don't have the latest version of code, I have no idea whether it would be useful to do it, and whether my patches would just be igored as the code has changed so much since last release or are irrevelent.
The version control system would allow integrating any patches much easier for the primary developers (and they would still have full control over the distribution and direction, although I hope they would welcome the extra hands doing bits and pieces here and there).
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Interesting thread. I'm not suprised that so many people feel that pdaX way is not so good.
Getting way to get patches integrated is one of most important things to me - otherwise it looks like 'install last release, then get fixed pkg1,pkg2,pkg3 from Dev1 and pkg4 from Dev2' instead of 'install last release, ipkg update, ipkg upgrade to get all updates/bugfixes'... It's easy to become discouraged when even simple fixes get ignored without any info. And I know that some of bugfixes for OE (present in bugtracker) are not yet integrated - lack of time.
About OpenEmbedded/BitBake as tool for building pdaX: basically it is possible to integrate pdaX stuff into OE and then use OE to build whole pdaX (images + feed). Someone familiar with both enviroments would need to do it to get it working (most of it would be mostly device/distro patches and some new 'recipes' for extra apps). But it is possible - anyone can use OE to generate SharpROM compatible packages for example...
Speaking about OZ release and my lack of motivation: I plan to do tests tomorrow on my c760 (and maybe catch someone on irc for testing on cxx00 machine) and if all will get OK then 3.5.4.1 became a fact.
And one thing to danbold: do you know how many developers OZ has? Most of OE guys working on OZ before now are working on out new distro called Angstrom or on getting newer stuff working. Many things from their work goes back to OE branch used for OZ 3.5.4.x work and finally land in OZ 'upgrades' feed. Many things from OE work (not related to PDA) ends in OZ 'upgrades' feed - like Samba fixed by people which use OE to build own distro for SuperH powered devices. Probably few people could be found to get Release Manager position - but how many o them would like to get it? It is not nice position - users are complaining, requesting misc things, report bugs in a useless way.. And being RM block other activity - my OPIE Notes need work for which I have no time, I have Ir keyboard which I cannot test now under 2.6 kernel because lack of time to check how it work at all. I cannot even check does 3.5.4.1 test images works OK without getting other developer or user to test them for me - it took 4 days to test 3.5.4.1-rc4 before it was released to public.
pdaX users: sorry for long post but it cannot be made shorter
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Sashz take some photos from your new place and the brazilian girls : )
.... I am a developer/architect
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
McChubby, do you mean software architect.. or architect (who design houses for example)???
Im also one who is trying to figure out what to do in his life!(Unix or houses!)
Tasos
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hmmm ... so what's the final result?
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Final result? Personally, I'd take brazilian girls over building houses or UNIX
Sash, we are waiting for girls pix!
-albertr
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Final result? Personally, I'd take brazilian girls over building houses or UNIX
Sash, we are waiting for girls pix!
-albertr
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131343\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
hahaha
ok ok ... so the brazillian girls are taking over the pdaXrom code ... yes?
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Hrw (and OE team)-
I only have a vague idea just how tough it must be trying to organise OE and OZ releses. I certainly couldn't do it- primarily because I'm not a developer. It's OK saying you don't have enough time to get a new release done, that is not surprising at all, but the way you were talking about OZ in that post I linked to it honestly sounded like you had lost interest in the project- OZ at least. Go read it again and see what you think- it doesn't sound promising.
I was in no way saying you're incapable of it- I really appreciate all the support, organisation and especially the code that both yourself and the rest of the OE team has contributed. OE/OZ is the most exciting linux distro around IMO and I know only too well how talented the team is. A good chunk of the worlds best coders are hacking away on their Z's right now- don't let me stop you!
Like everyone else on here, I just want to see my Z the best it can be asap!
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Sashz take some photos from your new place and the brazilian girls : )
.... I am a developer/architect
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
McChubby, do you mean software architect.. or architect (who design houses for example)???
Im also one who is trying to figure out what to do in his life!(Unix or houses!)
Tasos
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131314\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Sorry, yeah a software developer/architect!! I wouldn't know where to start with buildings, but I could build you some software .
Put me down for two Brazilian girls...
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At the moment with pdaXrom - the lack of a version control system (such as CVS or Subversion) that everyone can contribute to, and obtain the very latest version of code (so any patches that are developed arn't useless or obsolute or would just take too much time to adapt to the latest code, as it seems has happened a few times when people have submitted patches to sashz) is a big problem.
http://mail.pdaxrom.org/node/101 (http://mail.pdaxrom.org/node/101) :
Download pdaXrom-builder from svn repository:
svn checkout https://mail.pdaXrom.org/svn/pdaXrom-builder/trunk (https://mail.pdaXrom.org/svn/pdaXrom-builder/trunk)
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http://mail.pdaxrom.org/node/101 (http://mail.pdaxrom.org/node/101) :
Download pdaXrom-builder from svn repository:
svn checkout https://mail.pdaXrom.org/svn/pdaXrom-builder/trunk (https://mail.pdaXrom.org/svn/pdaXrom-builder/trunk)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131378\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I feel I must apologise here, I never realized that this existed! Last time I checked the documentation on the pdaXrom site and the oesf how-to's it didn't!
Thank you for pointing this out, I will start using it immediately - it will be very useful!
My previous comments about not having a central repository for the latest development code and patches now seem null and void - please ignore them! ;
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I feel I must apologise here, I never realized that this existed!
that seems a very common feeling about the behind the scenes goings on of pdaXrom.
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I feel I must apologise here, I never realized that this existed!
that seems a very common feeling about the behind the scenes goings on of pdaXrom.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131421\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I'm not paricularly familiar with svn (I'm much more at home yet with cvs) but isn't this interface read-only? Until I can get WRITE access (or at keast someone outside of Sashz having write access) then Sash completely strangles all pdaXrom development. You don;t just need archive access (although it's nice), you need write access.
This is very easy to give, and manage via ssh keys.
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chukr: anyway having svn access is better as there is a way to check what is going on with pdaX.
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So...
I guess the real questions are:
1) What really is happening with pdaXrom? What does the future hold for it?
2) Will there ever been a stable, bug fixed release and if so, when?
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So...
I guess the real questions are:
1) What really is happening with pdaXrom? What does the future hold for it?
2) Will there ever been a stable, bug fixed release and if so, when?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I think that some slightly better version numbers (as suggested by others) might help answer both those questions.
To add my two cents to something which I know nothing about , I would venture to suggest that:
- 1.1.0beta1 be officially released as 1.1.1 (stable => new users, etc)
- 1.1.0beta3 be 1.1.3beta (2.4 kernel, late development => usable but not 100%)
- 1.1.0beta4 be 1.2.0alpha (2.6 kernel, early development => at your own risk!)
Or something like that. That would make it clear to me which to download and use, and what was being developed...
(Hopefully I'm not wrong about the current state of the game!)
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So...
I guess the real questions are:
1) What really is happening with pdaXrom? What does the future hold for it?
2) Will there ever been a stable, bug fixed release and if so, when?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I think that some slightly better version numbers (as suggested by others) might help answer both those questions.
To add my two cents to something which I know nothing about , I would venture to suggest that:
- 1.1.0beta1 be officially released as 1.1.1 (stable => new users, etc)
- 1.1.0beta3 be 1.1.3beta (2.4 kernel, late development => usable but not 100%)
- 1.1.0beta4 be 1.2.0alpha (2.6 kernel, early development => at your own risk!)
Or something like that. That would make it clear to me which to download and use, and what was being developed...
(Hopefully I'm not wrong about the current state of the game!)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131745\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
well I don't know....wouldn't that be too simple and make too much sense?????
cycle_55
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- 1.1.0beta1 be officially released as 1.1.1 (stable => new users, etc)
As I recall, beta 1 is pretty buggy though. I'd expect a stable release to have corrected the pdaXrom long running bugs, which I've mentioned before, of incorrect keymaps, poor suspecd/resume, and incorrectly sized windows when starting up various bundled apps.
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- 1.1.0beta1 be officially released as 1.1.1 (stable => new users, etc)
As I recall, beta 1 is pretty buggy though. I'd expect a stable release to have corrected the pdaXrom long running bugs, which I've mentioned before, of incorrect keymaps, poor suspecd/resume, and incorrectly sized windows when starting up various bundled apps.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131797\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Well, this is exactly the problem - I don't know (and I don't think anyone else here does either!) exactly which version is what. But if someone who did know were to re-number them along the same lines, then we would all be in the picture, perhaps?
I realise that whichever version is chosen as release, it's not going to be 100%, but it's very confusing to stay in beta forever...
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- 1.1.0beta1 be officially released as 1.1.1 (stable => new users, etc)
As I recall, beta 1 is pretty buggy though. I'd expect a stable release to have corrected the pdaXrom long running bugs, which I've mentioned before, of incorrect keymaps, poor suspecd/resume, and incorrectly sized windows when starting up various bundled apps.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131797\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Well, this is exactly the problem - I don't know (and I don't think anyone else here does either!) exactly which version is what. But if someone who did know were to re-number them along the same lines, then we would all be in the picture, perhaps?
I realise that whichever version is chosen as release, it's not going to be 100%, but it's very confusing to stay in beta forever...
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131878\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
beta3 hasn't let me down so far.
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beta3 hasn't let me down so far.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
It may not have let you down, but you're a pretty bright chap, you take the base pdaXrom and change the window manager and clean up the niggly bugs. Most people don't really know how to do that.
Rather than flashing beta 3 and then following a set of instructions on how to tidy that up to make it more useable. It'd be nice to have a stable version that just works from the moment you flash it, with as few (there'll always be some) niggly bugs as possible.
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beta3 hasn't let me down so far.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
It may not have let you down, but you're a pretty bright chap, you take the base pdaXrom and change the window manager and clean up the niggly bugs. Most people don't really know how to do that.
Rather than flashing beta 3 and then following a set of instructions on how to tidy that up to make it more useable. It'd be nice to have a stable version that just works from the moment you flash it, with as few (there'll always be some) niggly bugs as possible.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
My sentiments exactly! Its a can, want to or able to.
While hobbists and developers can and are able to install and tweak it, normal users aren't able to do it.
And if there is one rom that does everything perfectly in a one-shot flashing process, I'm sure even the hobbists and developers would appreciate it.
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beta3 hasn't let me down so far.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
It may not have let you down, but you're a pretty bright chap, you take the base pdaXrom and change the window manager and clean up the niggly bugs. Most people don't really know how to do that.
Rather than flashing beta 3 and then following a set of instructions on how to tidy that up to make it more useable. It'd be nice to have a stable version that just works from the moment you flash it, with as few (there'll always be some) niggly bugs as possible.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
My sentiments exactly! Its a can, want to or able to.
While hobbists and developers can and are able to install and tweak it, normal users aren't able to do it.
And if there is one rom that does everything perfectly in a one-shot flashing process, I'm sure even the hobbists and developers would appreciate it.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131920\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
... And we're back at the start again. I guess this is why pdaXrom is still version numbered as beta; not yet ready for general use...
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beta3 hasn't let me down so far.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
It may not have let you down, but you're a pretty bright chap, you take the base pdaXrom and change the window manager and clean up the niggly bugs. Most people don't really know how to do that.
Rather than flashing beta 3 and then following a set of instructions on how to tidy that up to make it more useable. It'd be nice to have a stable version that just works from the moment you flash it, with as few (there'll always be some) niggly bugs as possible.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
My sentiments exactly! Its a can, want to or able to.
While hobbists and developers can and are able to install and tweak it, normal users aren't able to do it.
And if there is one rom that does everything perfectly in a one-shot flashing process, I'm sure even the hobbists and developers would appreciate it.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131920\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
... And we're back at the start again. I guess this is why pdaXrom is still version numbered as beta; not yet ready for general use...
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131922\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
i think the sentiment is shared by a lot of other people that beta1/beta3 was almost there and with a few extra tweaks and bug fixes it could had been made into a stable release but instead, we got a new alpha release called beta4. i guess, what we really need is someone to clean up beta1/beta3 and build flashable images and feeds for all models.
as much as I would love to do that, I can't due to my frequent travel requirements.
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i think the sentiment is shared by a lot of other people that beta1/beta3 was almost there and with a few extra tweaks and bug fixes it could had been made into a stable release but instead, we got a new alpha release called beta4. i guess, what we really need is someone to clean up beta1/beta3 and build flashable images and feeds for all models.
as much as I would love to do that, I can't due to my frequent travel requirements.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
In some part of the world, we would call that "scope-creep" ... though in most cases, scope-creep occurs due to demand from users, and not from developers. In the case of pdaXrom, it seem to be from the developers.
Yes, we need someone to clean them up, and manage the releases as a Release Manager. Me thought that when a project reach Beta stage, its feature freeze and when reach RC, its mostly code freeze except for like very minor tweaking of installation packages etc.
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i think the sentiment is shared by a lot of other people that beta1/beta3 was almost there and with a few extra tweaks and bug fixes it could had been made into a stable release but instead, we got a new alpha release called beta4. i guess, what we really need is someone to clean up beta1/beta3 and build flashable images and feeds for all models.
as much as I would love to do that, I can't due to my frequent travel requirements.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
In some part of the world, we would call that "scope-creep" ... though in most cases, scope-creep occurs due to demand from users, and not from developers. In the case of pdaXrom, it seem to be from the developers.
Yes, we need someone to clean them up, and manage the releases as a Release Manager. Me thought that when a project reach Beta stage, its feature freeze and when reach RC, its mostly code freeze except for like very minor tweaking of installation packages etc.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131936\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Except in pdaXrom, RC came before beta! Maybe sashz wouldn't mind someone else polishing beta3 if he has moved on to the latest and greatest with beta4? Is there a reasonably complete bug list for the 2.4 beta(s)? The one on the web site is out of date...
Pity I can't put my money where my mouth is; maybe I should stop talking...
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latest "stable" releases for 2.4 kernel -
beta1/2 - C7x0/C860/C7500
beta3 for C1000/C3100
Beta4 - we have start with 2.6 kernel
Soon as i will come to new localtion (26th june) i will prepare and put new releases.
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latest "stable" releases for 2.4 kernel -
beta1/2 - C7x0/C860/C7500
beta3 for C1000/C3100
Beta4 - we have start with 2.6 kernel
Soon as i will come to new localtion (26th june) i will prepare and put new releases.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Will that include a new release for the 6000?
todd
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latest "stable" releases for 2.4 kernel -
beta1/2 - C7x0/C860/C7500
beta3 for C1000/C3100
Beta4 - we have start with 2.6 kernel
Soon as i will come to new localtion (26th june) i will prepare and put new releases.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Problem is with these releases the word stable needs to be in inverted commas, as you've put it.
They just aren't out of the box stable enough.
If someone were of a mind to, could someone get at the source for betas 1,2 and 3 and fix the bugs if they wanted to? I'm sure no one would mind too much if someone did that and posted the images somewhere. It doesn't stop sashz moving forwards with what he wants to do with beta 4, just allows everyone else to take a breath and actually use a stable Z.
I've had to give up on pdaXrom and move to OZ/GPE hentges for out of the box working straight from flash. I miss my OOo
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Sashz, suggestion ... following on what omro said, how about if the source is made available just for stabilizing the two releases beta1/2 and beta3 while beta4 is slated for later release. ... hmmm that could have other implications ... ie, the fixes made may or may not live onto beta4.
Sashz, looking forward to 'stable" release of beta4!
btw, how's your new work?
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Sashz, suggestion ... following on what omro said, how about if the source is made available just for stabilizing the two releases beta1/2 and beta3 while beta4 is slated for later release. ... hmmm that could have other implications ... ie, the fixes made may or may not live onto beta4.
Sashz, looking forward to 'stable" release of beta4!
btw, how's your new work?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131987\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
if the system is really open, then any fixes that go into the other betas to stabilise them should be easily available to be included in anything further up the development tree....
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i think the sentiment is shared by a lot of other people that beta1/beta3 was almost there and with a few extra tweaks and bug fixes it could had been made into a stable release but instead, we got a new alpha release called beta4. i guess, what we really need is someone to clean up beta1/beta3 and build flashable images and feeds for all models.
as much as I would love to do that, I can't due to my frequent travel requirements.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I think you've done tons already with the software you've released and your incredibly useful site.
Laze/Sashz you're the founders and leaders of pdaXrom, but you're obviously very busy as Sashz now has his new job and Laze you're not posting very often anymore. Do you have any comment to make about where things are going? Are you interested in opening pdaXrom up so that more developers can join in so that these images can be cleaned up and things can be done by others when they have the time, when you're too busy to do them yourselves?
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latest "stable" releases for 2.4 kernel -
beta1/2 - C7x0/C860/C7500
beta3 for C1000/C3100
Beta4 - we have start with 2.6 kernel
Soon as i will come to new localtion (26th june) i will prepare and put new releases.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Awesome - that gives us a pretty clear direction.
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Busy, busy! - The sources are available and if anyone fixes anything i will personally make sure the fixes get implemented into the build - we are moving to SVN asap but until then.
Btw. the biggest problems arent in the kernel stuff which Sash is focused on - it so many "experts" are disliking the pdaXrom i can't believe why they just spend like 20-30 minutes looking at the preferences programs which are all written in python and make them better and maybe even in C. All the current python stuff were just quick workarounds until we had the time to code them in C - acutally Zumi is working on that but im sure he could use some help. http://mail.pdaxrom.org/soc/ (http://mail.pdaxrom.org/soc/)
Its just a matter of looking how the python scripts does stuff and then make that prettier and into C native apps.
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Busy, busy! - The sources are available and if anyone fixes anything i will personally make sure the fixes get implemented into the build - we are moving to SVN asap but until then.
Btw. the biggest problems arent in the kernel stuff which Sash is focused on - it so many "experts" are disliking the pdaXrom i can't believe why they just spend like 20-30 minutes looking at the preferences programs which are all written in python and make them better and maybe even in C. All the current python stuff were just quick workarounds until we had the time to code them in C - acutally Zumi is working on that but im sure he could use some help. http://mail.pdaxrom.org/soc/ (http://mail.pdaxrom.org/soc/)
Its just a matter of looking how the python scripts does stuff and then make that prettier and into C native apps.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132143\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Well Laze, all the things can be done.
Python scripts can be easily corrected, people with the builder installed can easily compile the packages .
I agreed with cuckr when he said that Pengutronix tools are an excellent choice and all kernel enhancements done by Sashz were great.
So those are not the problem of the PdaXrom distro.
The problem is that people don' t have the time to hunt you and Sashz for helping you.
And the Sashz behaviour to be always misterious in anwers and PdaXrom management doesn' t help.
The last phrase OZ must die when we are all talking about collaboration it' s an example.
UHM.......! Hope for PdaXrom that this will change, because it' s, i think, the main problem for the users and contributors and not coding or utilities problems.
Byez!
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The problem is that people don' t have the time to hunt you and Sashz for helping you.
Hence the requests to open things up which never seem to get answered :-(
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From my POV it looks like pdaX develusers should create team which will work on improving pdaX and sashz should be degraded to kernel hacker/pdaX developer from 'pdaX the only one devel'.
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From my POV it looks like pdaX develusers should create team which will work on improving pdaX and sashz should be degraded to kernel hacker/pdaX developer from 'pdaX the only one devel'.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132153\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
yes, that's exactly the right idea and has been suggested time and time again.
(I'm sure the word meant is downgraded, not degraded (lol) before anyone gets upset by the word Hrw used!)
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From my POV it looks like pdaX develusers should create team which will work on improving pdaX and sashz should be degraded to kernel hacker/pdaX developer from 'pdaX the only one devel'.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132153\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
yes, that's exactly the right idea and has been suggested time and time again.
(I'm sure the word meant is downgraded, not degraded (lol) before anyone gets upset by the word Hrw used!)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I would say Sasz should focus on _core_ devel of pdaXrom like new kernel, bootloader, newer glibc, framebuffer, hw devices, main rom devel ... where others could help him (if someone is capable of that low level devel) and fix bugs, compile packages, create feeds, increase usability, create support utilities and so on ... So Sash needn't spent his time to fix everything with all modelz Zauri around.
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hehe ... maybe "targeted" would be even more appropriate than downgraded or degraded! Anyone need a corporate communications folk (who happen to code as well) here?
Xromer, I'm also quite shocked with the "OZ must die" line. It's like, there's all these talk about lack of cooperation and hope that we can move forward in collaboration and suddenly ... "OZ must die".
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Yeah, pdaXrom has a VERY BAD case of "scope-creep!" It is hard, though, with a small team and no "release to market" schedule to settle down on a feature set. I imagine that often the fix for one issue leads on to a new feature. I'm sure that Sashz is hoping that the 2.6 kernel will fix some of the issues he is facing with Beta3 and below. Also, without a "release to market" there is little visible benefit to be had from working hard to get something "polished," only to have to rebuild it for the next version. For instance, I doubt Sashz wants to spend much time on the Beta3 networking control applet, because he has to rewrite it for Beta4 anyway.
I think we all got a little disillusioned when we thought we were so close to a "final release version" and then a new feature (kernel 2.6) was added to the next "Beta" and the quality went backwards many many many steps. We thought we were on the very edge of "this is it," and then we get hit with, "Well, no, now we need to add a new kernel and spend another year in Alpha."
I, for one, would love to see a STOP at Beta3 with a feature FREEZE (including kernel) and have all the bugs fixed, and all of the various packages laying around in "unstable" and other people's feeds and such compiled to work "out of the box" on Beta3 in one feed. Release it as something equivalent to "pdaXrom Kernel 2.4 FINAL."
Then we could have a new RELEASE version, before we start down the long road toward a working 2.6 version.
It may be best, though, if WE do that, and just let Sashz go on with Beta4+.
So, what we need is someone to take charge of "finalizing" Beta3. Someone will have to solicit fixes, get them to Laze (and get him to implement them), and then rebuild the "ROMs" and rebuild packages.
On the other hand, maybe doing that would take more time than it would take to just get Beta4 up to release quality . . . I'm sure that is what Sashz is thinking, and he may be right.
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. . . looking at the preferences programs which are all written in python and make them better and maybe even in C. All the current python stuff were just quick workarounds until we had the time to code them in C - acutally Zumi is working on that but im sure he could use some help.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132143\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Actually, I like that they are written in Python. It makes it very easy to make quick changes to them without being a programmer or having to recompile packages.
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From my POV it looks like pdaX develusers should create team which will work on improving pdaX and sashz should be degraded to kernel hacker/pdaX developer from 'pdaX the only one devel'.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132153\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
(I'm sure the word meant is downgraded, not degraded (lol) before anyone gets upset by the word Hrw used!)
I'm not sure "downgraded" is the right word, necessarily either.
Consider two things:
a) Sash is currently the only one who gets to work on pdaXrom
b) Sash is currently the only one who is working on pdaXrom
excluding laze, and the few other direct contributors they've had, its basically
Sash's project. Some on the OESF forums (and some elsewhere) think the project
might benefit, if Sash wasn't the only one working on it-
there are really three ways to go from here.
I) continue pdaXrom as it has been. which will make some people happy,
and some people unhappy, and some will not especially care
Ia) give sash more $$$
Ib) give sash less $$$
Ic) give sash the same amount of $$$ as before
II) fork pdaXrom! (and by attribution, "fork" sash). This should make a few people
happy, a few people unhappy, and most won't really notice or care much.
III) work with sash to build a better pdaXrom. This has been tried, apparently, with not great results so far. There is no greater authority who can "downgrade" Sash from mainline pdaXrom development; only he can choose to take a different role, or not. Perhaps there is some inspiration to be gained from Linus' stepping away from
day-to-day Linux development, to focus, progressively on more and more "core" and essential subprojects. If Sash is happy with the role he currently has, or doesn't wish to give up any power or control, he's probably going to stick doing what he's doing. If he gets sufficiently unhappy, I fear he's going to probably quit.
IIIa)
What might help Sash (and pdaXrom) would be to offer specific help with specific tasks; bug-testing, bug-fixing, general apps, pdaXrom tools, kernel, bootloader, etc.
What Sash would have to do, in turn, would be to keep an open svn/cvs that lets developers have write access. If this already exists, we're a step closer.
What Sash would have to do, which would be a pain, would be to *use* that repository for all the changes he makes, and commit himself to keeping it current.
This could be a small bother, or a real hassle, but it would probably be good practice for him, too :)
IV) OE devs keep insulting Sash, Sash keeps insulting oe devs, until either
OE people get annoyed and quit, or Sash gets annoyed and quits, which will leave
the Zaurus community poorer. This is the "solution" that I hope we don't find.
"OE MUST DIE" and "sashz should be degraded" are both... fun things to chat about
and definitely this kind of speech releases anger and stress for the speaker,
but it causes more stress for the listener.
I hope we can keep trying to make option (III) or (IIIa) a reality, or (I) if not that,
or (II) if not that, and avoid (IV), but we'll have to see what people want the most, and are willing to contribute to.
(IV) death to [all zaurus development] is probably the easiest path to pursue :(
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Ok. 'degraded' was not a good word - I meant change from "I am the only one who maintain and rest is not even worth to send me patches" to rather one of developers in project like you described in IIIa - sooner or later this method will end in creating 'pdaX core team' and 'pdaX devel team' instead of current situation.
IV situation looks funny indeed but it will rather not happen (atleast we (OE team) will not end - don't know about sash).
Situation II need to be avoided and version I is what we have now - not comfortable situation where some devels are switching from pdaX to OZ....
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I've been watching this article now since it started and have managed to stay quiet and behind the scenes and stay out of this from a admin standpoint but it's kind of hard when a person makes the comment of "OE MUST DIE" my temptation is to suspend his account on here, however I don't think that would do the Zaurus community as a whole any good cutting off his access at this point. But I will make the warning that this sort of behavior/comments will not be tolerated here. If such comments continue they will be handled appropriatly.
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I've been watching this article now since it started and have managed to stay quiet and behind the scenes and stay out of this from a admin standpoint but it's kind of hard when a person makes the comment of "OE MUST DIE" my temptation is to suspend his account on here, however I don't think that would do the Zaurus community as a whole any good cutting off his access at this point. But I will make the warning that this sort of behavior/comments will not be tolerated here. If such comments continue they will be handled appropriatly.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Wow, now that would be a turn of events if Sashz was banned from this forum!
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I, for one, would love to see a STOP at Beta3 with a feature FREEZE (including kernel) and have all the bugs fixed, and all of the various packages laying around in "unstable" and other people's feeds and such compiled to work "out of the box" on Beta3 in one feed. Release it as something equivalent to "pdaXrom Kernel 2.4 FINAL."
Then we could have a new RELEASE version, before we start down the long road toward a working 2.6 version.
It may be best, though, if WE do that, and just let Sashz go on with Beta4+.
If you saw what sash wrote it that the new beta is 2.6 - nobody said the beta3 would be stopped. Yes the names are bad but i haven't had the time to keep track and help out.
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Hi,
I suspect (or more correctly truly believe) that Sashz's comment about
"OZ must die" was said in humor, and to reenforce his longer term
commitment to continue development on pdaXrom. I suspect he was
busy and wanted to join in the discussion, and energize the current
users.
John
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Hi,
I suspect (or more correctly truly believe) that Sashz's comment about
"OZ must die" was said in humor, and to reenforce his longer term
commitment to continue development on pdaXrom. I suspect he was
busy and wanted to join in the discussion, and energize the current
users.
John
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132259\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
One can energise the current users in better ways.
I'd much rather hear encouraging words about how people can participate in making pdaXrom better than just dragging up animosity towards other groups.
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miskinis / omro-
I appreciate the comments made by both of you. I do agree that it was possibly made tongue and cheek. However as the past shows there have been inflammitory remarks made and I just wanted to remind the entire community to bite their tongues occasionaly and watch what we say. And please believe me if it ever came to the point that I had to ban someone of his stature in this community it would be very painfull. I would much rather mess with the rogue spammer and make their life rough not a person who has added so much functionality to the Zaurus. So on that note back to playing with my new 3200 that I love so much
Thanks to all for your help keeping this site going strong!!!
Jim
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I suspect (or more correctly truly believe) that Sashz's comment about
"OZ must die" was said in humor
Hope this too.
4 things.
1) None has the rights and power to decide over the future of PdaXrom than Sashz and Laze, i think.
As this is a Sashz creature and i didn' t want to tell or do anything like that.
I didn' t like his behaviour only that in future with a stable connection and a new team will change logically.
For this reason I would like to see after 26th of June what Sashz will decide.
2) I learnt and i' m learning a lot with these teams, i have only to thanks all, but i have only one Zauri as i said so time by time i have to choose, this is why i would like th efforts to be nearer as possible.
3) As i' m primarily a user, i' m expressing only displeasure of this fighting behaviour between developers which energies are very precious and that ports only confusion in the Zauri comunity.
4) UHM...... Sure i did a bad thing saying this stuff in the Forum, surely i had to speak only with Sashz first (I tried) and i' m sorry for that, but this was only an attempt to unite not divide first the Sashz's post.
I think it will be the last as i saw it' s not possible.
So spawn your own projects, fight as you want, you' re free to do it.
But do not blame people when they become angry or confused because it' s your fault as your behaviour reflects as an echo in the comunity.
BYEZ!!!
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Hi
Any news on when the next update can be expected and what the new update will bring?
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First off, some may know me as a OZ / OE person but I do have no grudge agains sashz or pdaXrom in general. I disagree with him on certain things but that's it.
However, I can't believe the discussion going on here about "degrading" sashz or "forcing" him to change his development style.
It's basically his project and he can bloody do what he wants with it. If he chooses to ignore offered patched (which I don't have any knowledge about) then it is his descision and his alone.
Guys, if you don't like it then
a) Fork the project and do it the (in your eyes) right way
\b) Stop complaining and just be happy about what you already have
c) Use another distro
d) Roll another distro from scratch
2 out of those 4 points require a not so small amount of work and dedication.
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Me in Brazil now and i start my work again !!!
New updates comming® soon:)
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First off, some may know me as a OZ / OE person but I do have no grudge agains sashz or pdaXrom in general. I disagree with him on certain things but that's it.
However, I can't believe the discussion going on here about "degrading" sashz or "forcing" him to change his development style.
It's basically his project and he can bloody do what he wants with it. If he chooses to ignore offered patched (which I don't have any knowledge about) then it is his descision and his alone.
Guys, if you don't like it then
a) Fork the project and do it the (in your eyes) right way
\b) Stop complaining and just be happy about what you already have
c) Use another distro
d) Roll another distro from scratch
2 out of those 4 points require a not so small amount of work and dedication.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Amen !
Me in Brazil now and i start my work again !!!
New updates comming® soon:)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Great !
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Me in Brazil now and i start my work again !!!
New updates comming® soon:)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Still waiting for the pix of brazillian girls
-albertr
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Me in Brazil now and i start my work again !!!
New updates comming® soon:)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Still waiting for the pix of brazillian girls
-albertr
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133383\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I would vote for those features too
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I've been watching this article now since it started and have managed to stay quiet and behind the scenes and stay out of this from a admin standpoint but it's kind of hard when a person makes the comment of "OE MUST DIE" my temptation is to suspend his account on here, however I don't think that would do the Zaurus community as a whole any good cutting off his access at this point. But I will make the warning that this sort of behavior/comments will not be tolerated here. If such comments continue they will be handled appropriatly.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Should I suspend his account til he provides suitable pics
Jim
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Me in Brazil now and i start my work again !!!
New updates comming® soon:)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Welcome to America (sud)!
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Me in Brazil now and i start my work again !!!
smile.gif New updates comming® soon:)
Good news to hear, I was becoming frustrated.
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Me in Brazil now and i start my work again !!!
smile.gif New updates comming® soon:)
WOOT! (nuff said)
Late
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First off, some may know me as a OZ / OE person but I do have no grudge agains sashz or pdaXrom in general. I disagree with him on certain things but that's it.
However, I can't believe the discussion going on here about "degrading" sashz or "forcing" him to change his development style.
It's basically his project and he can bloody do what he wants with it. If he chooses to ignore offered patched (which I don't have any knowledge about) then it is his descision and his alone.
Guys, if you don't like it then
a) Fork the project and do it the (in your eyes) right way
\b) Stop complaining and just be happy about what you already have
c) Use another distro
d) Roll another distro from scratch
2 out of those 4 points require a not so small amount of work and dedication.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Oh come on.
If you'd paid attention to the various threads, people genuinely want to get involved and help develop pdaXrom and make it a more stable and better distro than it is.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to help make a good thing better.
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I would like to see pdaXrom stable version. Or at least the one with all the bugfixes. Just for normal everyday use.
Then pdaxrom with 2.6 kernel version. I would donate few (or more) bucks if I would see that happens.
And if sash would accept help from other (even if it meant only to patch pdaxrom bugs) I would be happier.
Kind regards,
Raul