OESF Portables Forum
Everything Else => Zaurus Distro Support and Discussion => Distros, Development, and Model Specific Forums => Archived Forums => Angstrom & OpenZaurus => Topic started by: Anonymous on March 02, 2004, 06:24:44 pm
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Was just reading in /. about the proposed Quality team for KDE. Maybe OZ too should adapt that...
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This is a great idea. Hey we would really like to, but at the moment no one is working on OZ so who is supposed to fix the bugs the Q/A team reports? :?
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I thought OZ was discontinued?
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Who told you that? OpenZaurus as a linux distribution is not discontinued - it never was. The OpenZaurus build system is discontinued. OpenZaurus development is halted because of working on the higher priority task \'build system migration\'. The next planned OZ release will be OZ 3.5.1 made out of the OpenEmbedded buildroot which is far more flexible and capable compared to our old system.
The build system migration is nearly finished now but since most of the work was done by nearly two people ( see http://openembedded.bkbits.net:8080/packag...?nav=index.html (http://openembedded.bkbits.net:8080/packages/ChangeSet@-12w?nav=index.html) ) we\'re pretty exhausted and motivation to start doing the now necessary integration work (integrate the device specifics to make OpenEmbedded capable of doing OpenZaurus builds) is low... frankly, rather not existing.
If the workload doesn\'t get distributed, it isn\'t fun. And if it isn\'t fun, it\'s not worth doing it. This is the Open Source credo isn\'t it?
If a bunch of people would start to do that integration work we could get into release mode in a few weeks... however since that didn\'t happen in the last months it could also take years to get into release mode again.
The community finally has to realize that two people are not enough to do such a huge task. I have realized it and I will no longer risk my profession and my health only for this hobby. Well, I\'m getting tired preaching the ole\' sermon again and again... read the OpenZaurus website, the OOO newsletters and openzaurus-devel@lists.sf.net and see how often we called for helping hands... without success.
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Who told you that? OpenZaurus as a linux distribution is not discontinued - it never was. The OpenZaurus build system is discontinued. OpenZaurus development is halted because of working on the higher priority task \'build system migration\'. The next planned OZ release will be OZ 3.5.1 made out of the OpenEmbedded buildroot which is far more flexible and capable compared to our old system.
The build system migration is nearly finished now but since all work was done by two people ( see http://openembedded.bkbits.net:8080/packag...?nav=index.html (http://openembedded.bkbits.net:8080/packages/ChangeSet@-12w?nav=index.html) ) we\'re pretty exhausted and motivation to start doing the now necessary integration work (integrate the device specifics to make OpenEmbedded capable of doing OpenZaurus builds) is low... frankly, rather not existing.
If a bunch of people would start to do that integration work we could get into release mode in a few weeks... however since that didn\'t happen in the last months it could also take years to get into release mode again.
The community finally has to realize that two people are not enough to do such a huge task. I have realized it and I will no longer risk my profession and my health only for this hobby. Well, I\'m getting tired preaching the ole\' sermon again and again... read the OpenZaurus website and the OOO newsletters and see how often we called for helping hands... without success.
Hi Mickey,
Sorry, I misunderstood previous announcements to mean the team switched to a different project (open embedded) from scratch. At least that\'s what the home page of OZ implied. Finding news about the project (s) is hidden among several project mailing lists, and every time I visit handhelds.org, I can\'t tell who\'s doing what, and what project belongs to what hardware.
And I see your point, yes, 2 is not enough for such work load.
I have seen you make previous requests for help, and I imagine most here and on the old dev board have read them too. So, my guess is that there is awareness that there is a need for help, but maybe not enough awareness about what kind of help, what\'s involved, and who\'s qualified.
I\'ve tried before to install OZ, just to see if I can understand it, and try to see how it works, unfortunately, I\'m a new comer to Z and only have a C760, and all attempt at installing OZ unstable have failed, it won\'t even boot. So to this day, I have not used OZ, don\'t know what\'s in it, and how different it is to the other ROM\'s around.
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That was me, my cookies logged me out
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Was just reading in /. about the proposed Quality team for KDE. Maybe OZ too should adapt that...
There is no need of more people to find bugs, but to solve them.
I have seen you make previous requests for help, and I imagine most here and on the old dev board have read them too. So, my guess is that there is awareness that there is a need for help, but maybe not enough awareness about what kind of help, what\'s involved, and who\'s qualified.
This could be the reason to make people give up, or not even try. Most people could help, probably, but doesn\'t have the time or knowledge to start, and ends up thinking they can\'t help. Is there any way to have a list of tasks which need to be done so people know what they can do, and understand the task so they can know how to start, what is necessary to work on it (cross compile env, just linux, etc), and stuff like that? If enough people started to work on the little tasks, Mickey and Kergoth could rest, just needing to guide the others on their tasks. Is this too much utopian?
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This is my take on OZ development. There needs to be comprehensive documentation on how to get started. A command by command step on how/where to download source, what command to build and what to get started would be of great help.
Most people get turned off by the fact they have no clue (myself included) where to start. Instead of writing a 1 page doc, if actual commands are given to
download
build
Test run the environment
That would go a long way in enlisting new members.
Also, for each app, have a list of small todos so newbies can take a shot at it. Also should have good doc on each app head as to how to build it, what package is needed to run it on a particular h/w, what needs to be fixed, what priorty etc.
The problem with OZ site is it is hardly updated and is skimpy on the details.
No offense meant Mickey, I greatly appreciate what you guys are doing. You guys are the only reason I\'m still sticking to Z. But this is what I think is honestly missing. It is not that people are dumb or anything, I know if we really put our mind to it, we can figure out how to get the source, do the test build and get started, but if all this info is already available, it makes it easy.
I guess it is just inertia!
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I would agree with that. Making it easier to apply one\'s interest and knowledge to oe and oz development would help get a lot of those who want to help involved. I\'m sure a lot of those want to be devs really do feel uncomfortable and overwhelmed by the whole process. From what I hear, setting up a build environment is itself enough of a task.
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I agree that it\'s difficult to get started. I\'m quite happy to write docs as I go along (as I\'ve only just started).
Where should I place them?
Si
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For now I suggest using the openembedded.org Wiki. We can then have people review these and go through an iterative enhancement process before we add them to the official OpenEmbedded manuals.
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That would be great, since I believe Mickey and Kergoth don\'t have the time to update the existing documentation.
Maybe a section here on the ZUG docs, or on the OE wiki? What would be better?
Do you think there would be a need for a separate section for OE here?
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OE wiki\'s fine, I was just loath to tread on people\'s toes.
What do you reckon then, make a link from the GettingStarted page, or just stick it in there with it?
Si
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O.K
I will join with larman and add my bits of knowledge as I fumble my way through the learning curve. I have held back from posting stuff (other than a small version change) as I didn\'t feel comfortable posting info that may be wrong / mislead others but overall I think its worth the risk to try and give this great project a helping hand and give others a well earned rest. Maybe Mickey and Kergoth can remove the worst of the incorrect stuff. (mine probably)
Richard
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Cool - appreciating this. I\'d say just modify the GettingStarted page and add additional pages as you like to break it in smaller and possibly better comprehensable chunks - your take on it is as much worth as ours. That\'s what I like in the WikiWiki system. If something is vague or even incorrect, it is not set in stone - we can just improve the documentation without having to deal with access rights, versioning or whatever complicated procedures - this is spontaneous collaboration.
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Fine. Going slightly off topic here, what happens if two people are modifying the same page (and even the same line) at the same time? :-)
Si
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Last time I checked Wiki acts like cvs here, i.e. presenting you a conflict and let you sort out manually using a difference view.
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This is my take on OZ development. There needs to be comprehensive documentation on how to get started. A command by command step on how/where to download source, what command to build and what to get started would be of great help.
Most people get turned off by the fact they have no clue (myself included) where to start. Instead of writing a 1 page doc, if actual commands are given to
download
build
Test run the environment
That would go a long way in enlisting new members.
Also, for each app, have a list of small todos so newbies can take a shot at it. Also should have good doc on each app head as to how to build it, what package is needed to run it on a particular h/w, what needs to be fixed, what priorty etc.
The problem with OZ site is it is hardly updated and is skimpy on the details.
No offense meant Mickey, I greatly appreciate what you guys are doing. You guys are the only reason I\'m still sticking to Z. But this is what I think is honestly missing. It is not that people are dumb or anything, I know if we really put our mind to it, we can figure out how to get the source, do the test build and get started, but if all this info is already available, it makes it easy.
I guess it is just inertia!
I agree 100%. I have *yet* to get the old build system to work. I have yet to get the NEW build system to work. Yes, two people are doing all of the work, but perhaps the effort is in the wrong place! I\'ll say there are no docs, you\'ll come back and insist there are... perhaps even give a link. I\'ll try the docs, and the second command will fail. I\'ll stae this. You\'ll come back \"well, it works for me\" ... and, another developer doesn\'t come on board.
face it -- if you want more people to help -- you\'ve got to HELP more people! I\'m glad -- we\'re glad... it works for you. But, it just doesn\'t work for me/us.
I have a redhat 7.2 machine. I have absolutely NO WAY to upgrade the OS. Sorry. I have a freebsd 5.2-CURRENT machine... it\'s slow, and not good for a dev machine. Where are the docs that will show me how to do OE build system on either of these? Where do I go to get a question anwered where I won\'t be told \"well, it works for me\" or have to wait 3 weeks for a sentence to be completed to answer my question?
Make a damn wiki for this. Have a page that has the steps... when people post questions
into the wiki with links off the howto page, there should be answers. timely answers. Ya, ya, you\'re developng the build system -- but the fact is, that energy is probably better put into getting more developers on board.
I\'m working on the pdaXrom -- why? there\'s an SDK. Does it work? Seems to -- for most people. Did it work for me? of course not... but, I\'m working through the issues and people are actually working with me.
OZ has the right idea -- but I agree that two people probably can\'t keep it up to the excellent standards at the same pace
just my opinion.
Scott
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The GettingStarted page worked for me (I know that\'s not what you want to hear ;-)), perhaps a forum for OE questions as I prefer the speed of forums to email (my posting seem to take up to 3 days to appear on the mailing list). I\'m quite happy to answer questions (once I\'ve worked out how to get it all working myself ;-)).
http://www.openembedded.org/phpwiki/index..../GettingStarted (http://www.openembedded.org/phpwiki/index.php/GettingStarted) is the getting started page I was talking about.
Si
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Good start!
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Is there a way to use already installed Qtopia and QPE?
I\'ve already installed the gcc2 cross-compiler and the Qtopia/QPE for 1.54 (Sharp Rom) and I can create pacages using tmake, I\'ve installed oe and can compile non-qt apps no probs. Now I want to move on - for various reasons I want to keep sharp based roms (moslty to do with the Japanese-English translation software I need for work)
I\'m willing to help out anyway I can, but IRC seems to give me few answers (I think it\'s a timezone thing). The wiki isn\'t clear on what is needed to help OE and OZ progress - maybe I\'m missing something
Stu
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Maybe we just need to organize the effort more. We can start with a team of volunteers, each one starts with a task, just like creating documentation. I can already see a couple of people on this thread starting this. Then, someone to divide the tasks into categories, then on each category a very specific task to do. People can then sign up to do each task. Also, the skills needed for each task. Then, setup a webpage with the status of the effort on a regular basis. I think if people see the actual progress on a task by task basis regularly, then they might be more interested to join in development.
I know in my case, I feel there are many things to do, and I dont know where to start. I also thought there were already people on certain things, so i was thinking that I am not needed anymore, so I was surprised to find out that only two people right now.
Anyway, just my thoughts...maybe now we can have lardman doing request for help in addition to mickeyl :-)
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This can all be done on the Wiki. Just create a couple of new pages to stick the stuff in (sign up, division of tasks, etc.), that way it\'s all out in the open and all in one place. Plus, though I don\'t think I really need to say this, we are talking about oe so we should have all of the info on the oe website.
Si
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Mickey, what are the tasks in OZ that badly need volunteers? We\'ll start from there.
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Perhaps something that would be useful in \'lowering the barrier to entry\' for people wanting to help with OZ development but having trouble / unwilling to setup a development workstation would be a live cd that contained everything needed. With this all people need to do is download and burn the image and then boot from it to be in an already setup development environment. I seem to remember something similar for qtopia development but cant say I\'ve ever used it.
Anyway, if people think it would be useful, and would use it I\'ll be happy to set about creating a useable live cd development environment.
Let me know what you all thinks
dys
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The above post was me !!! my session timed out.
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A couple of people have posted that the build system instructions don\'t work for them. I suspect that the main reason for this is missing libaries or whole modules being missing in there build enviroment. In my case I failed first time round on a libary but the output errors described in the log files only described a generic error rather than the specific libary missing so it took a bit of hunting around (trying to build packages out of order) before I got the specific error that led me to the answer. Perhaps the first job should be to describe the full list of \"tools\" required before the build system will work. Trouble is, development wise, I have just about everything installed so this may be a bit of a task and also picking the packages from differing unix distributions that contain these liabaries may be trying.
I can do Redhat-8/9/Fedora and Mandrake 9/10 any offers for the others ?
Simon
As we both have working OE build enviroments perhaps it would be best if we compare notes first.
Richard
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host www.openembedded.org
Host www.openembedded.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
host www.openembedded.com
www.openembedded.com is an alias for vhost.sourceforge.net.
vhost.sourceforge.net has address 66.35.250.210
There is something wrong with the ns configuration...
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I was able to compile the starting packages, but now i get this everytime I try to compile any other package?
checking for C compiler default output file name... configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
What could be the problem?
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Inspect the config.log file of that package.
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ya, could be many errors...
I\'ve seenthis when any part of the chain is missing... usually \"as\" ... (gas?) ... I think I have seen it with bad ld too.
when installing gcc, usually slap in binutils too.
Scott
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Another (slightly obvious) reason could just be that arm-linux-gcc is not in your $PATH... Happened to me more than once
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# oebuild busybox/busybox_1.00-pre8.oe
NOTE: package busybox-1.00-pre8-r0: task do_fetch started
NOTE: package busybox-1.00-pre8-r0: task do_fetch completed
NOTE: package busybox-1.00-pre8-r0: task do_compile started
ERROR: function do_compile failed
ERROR: see log in /opt/oe/packages/tmp/base/busybox-1.00-pre8-r0/temp/log.do_compile.18440
ERROR: package busybox-1.00-pre8-r0: task do_compile failed
ERROR: TaskFailed event exception, aborting
# cat /opt/oe/packages/tmp/base/busybox-1.00-pre8-r0/temp/log.do_compile.18440
NOTE: make -e MAKEFLAGS= CROSS=arm-linux-
ccache arm-linux-gcc -I./include -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -Wshadow -Os -fstrict
-aliasing -fomit-frame-pointer -D_GNU_SOURCE -DNDEBUG -I/opt/oe/packages/tmp/
staging/include -I/opt/oe/packages/tmp/staging/usr/X11R6/include -I/opt/oe/packa
ges/tmp/staging/target/include -fexpensive-optimizations -fomit-frame-pointer -O
2 -c -o libbb/module_syscalls.o libbb/module_syscalls.c
In file included from libbb/module_syscalls.c:26:
/opt/oe/packages/tmp/staging/target/include/sys/syscall.h:32:27: bits/syscall.h:
No such file or directory
make: *** [libbb/module_syscalls.o] Error 1
FATAL: oemake failed
Why is this file missing? Something missing?
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Have you compiled glibc first ?
Richard
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Yes...
# oebuild glibc/glibc_2.3.2.oe
NOTE: package glibc-2.3.2-r0: task do_fetch started
NOTE: package glibc-2.3.2-r0: task do_fetch completed
NOTE: package glibc-2.3.2-r0: task do_build started
NOTE: package glibc-2.3.2-r0: task do_build completed
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O.K
I think (from memory) that the header you are missing is part of the uclib which you may need to build first . Sorry I can\'t check at the moment I\'m not near my development PC.
Check the dependency list in the packages directory for busybox.
Richard
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# oebuild uclibc/uclibc_0.9.26.oe
NOTE: package uclibc-0.9.26-r0: task do_fetch started
NOTE: package uclibc-0.9.26-r0: task do_fetch completed
NOTE: package uclibc-0.9.26-r0: task do_build started
NOTE: package uclibc-0.9.26-r0: task do_build completed
And still get the same error... I\'m just testing, I was able to build the 4 recommended packages, and none after them... Any special step I could\'ve missed? As for stuff needed to be done, is there a task list being created?
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Sorry can\'t help further until I\'m sat in front of my PC will have a look later for you.
I have made a start on the \"whats required to get compiler working list\" but am bogged down with work at the moment so may take a while.
Richard
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Thank you!
Good luck in your work!
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Hmm... I wouldn\'t build different c libraries. That seriously mixes up things. You better use oemake btw. - that cares about dependencies. I have a function like that in my .bashrc:
function oe() { export OEDIR=/usr/local/projects/oe;
export PATH=$OEDIR/bin:$PATH:/usr/local/arm/3.3.2/bin;
export PKGDIR=/usr/local/projects/packages; cd $PKGDIR;
export OEMASK="binutils|uclibc|avr-libc|gcc|initial|qte_2|qtopia|linux";
export OEFILES=`/bin/ls $PKGDIR/*/*.oe 2>/dev/null|grep -v -E "$OEMASK"`; }
Then I can do \'oemake freedroid\' and all dependencies are automatically built.
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O.k
I\'ve had a chance to look now and Busybox only requires vitrual/libc so should have built o.k.
Mickeyl\'s .bashrc solution is much neater than using a shell script and ensures that your PATH contains everything needed. Just copy his text and replace your own directoiry paths where needed. To run just type oe (sorry obvious but just in case )
I\'ve been using oebuild as oemake would screw up for me (Might have been me not the script) but maybe the script has been modified to clean things up, I haven\'t tried it for a while. (Guess I will now)
Richard
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Where did everybody go? Is there things being done in the background? Or did everyone give up?
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http://www.openembedded.org/phpwiki/index..../GettingStarted (http://www.openembedded.org/phpwiki/index.php/GettingStarted) is the getting started page I was talking about.
Si
working link would be:
http://openembedded.org/oe_wiki/index.php/.../GettingStarted (http://openembedded.org/oe_wiki/index.php/GettingStarted)
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Quick note before I leave to austria for a week skiing: We have just established the mailing list oe@handhelds.org. Major topics are 1.) Development of the build system OpenEmbedded itself and 2.) Development, Documentation, etc. of device-independent packages (i.e. 90% of what goes into a typical OpenZaurus linux distribution). For device-specific issues, the openzaurus-devel@lists.sf.net still should be the authority.
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Have fun Mickey!
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I\'d like to participate in this collaboration too, if there\'s anything I can do to contribute.
I\'m apprehensive that I\'d be of limited use, as I\'m just getting my SL5600 and have only begun to learn Linux.
But I\'ve got long-standing Windows experience and reasonably good writing and editorial skills.
If someone would respond to this (positively or negatively) I\'d either try to contact one of you and stay in the loop, or go off and get some more foundational knowledge before checking-in again. Thanks.
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I think you would be able to make a valid contribution, exactly because you\'re just starting out, so you should be able to note down what got you stuck as it happens (I\'m starting to forget how difficult things were when I started out, even though it wasn\'t actually that long ago).
I presume that you\'ll not be jumping straight in at the deep end and trying to get OE up and running (though by all means do so, it\'s not that difficult), but certainly documenting/making comment on everyday use of OZ would be good.
The main trouble you might have is that OZ on the 5600 is unstable, though I don\'t think it\'s as unstable as some people make it out to be. So you may be straight in there having to report (and fix?) bugs.
Simon
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Thanks so much, Simon (lardman) for responding promptly. I think you\'re right: moreover, another benefit of being utterly new to an OS is that you don\'t have a frame of reference for the effort -- i.e. everything seems like a chore. So if I get bogged down, I\'ll just assume that this is the way it always goes.
I\'ve seen that the newest release of OZ is \"poodle\" but I\'ve already heard that the howto printed at the OZ site is specifically designed for the sl5500. If you could point me to a linked howto for installing OZ on the sl5600, it would be tremendously helpful. I could even start imagining a verbose howto for the similarly green. Thanks!
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Poodle is a reference to the hardware rather than the release, so all ROMs for the 5600 will be refered to as being for the \'poodle\'. In much the same way the 5500/5000d is a \'collie\'. There are others, and probably a list somewhere too.
I don\'t know of a HowTo off the top of my head (I\'ve never need one with a 5500), hopefully someone else will know of one.
Si
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catachresis, check http://openembedded.org/oe_wiki/index.php/...dleInstallGuide (http://openembedded.org/oe_wiki/index.php/OpenZaurusPoodleInstallGuide) ...
cheers
Philipp
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Many thanks Pyrates & Lardman. Cheers - I hope I find a place in the ZUG scene.