OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: spaul on October 16, 2006, 06:33:18 pm
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Anyone have any speculation on if and when Sharp will introduce another Zaurus. Am I wrong in thinking that a model with X86 chip (and usual wishlist, larger screen, thiner form factor, bluetooth, wireless G,,,) that could run linux or windows xp would crush most blackberrys and UMPCs.
Maybe they should change the name of the company to "not so sharp".
As is I'm stuck waiting for a UMPC that people will confuse with sushi, Averatec Ahi.
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Actually, I'd rather not have one with an x86 compatible chip, even if it could be made with the same power characteristics of the embedded arm / xscale cpu's. The reason? If a handheld is binary compatible with the desktop, then most likely we will see it running desktop versions of software, instead of programs specifically designed for a handheld unit (this goes for both Windows and Linux software). The problem with this, is a lot of desktop semantics don't translate properly to a handheld (i.e., assuming the presence of two / three mouse buttons, along with full keyboard / large screen, lots of ram / storage, etc). Whereas when developers have to specifically port an app to an alternate platform, they are more likely to also take into account the target form factor.
An example of this is the difference between the feel of a Zaurus running Qtopia / Opie, v.s. running X11. When I'm running in X mode, I tend to use it as a mini laptop (or laptop replacement), whereas when I'm just using the Qtopia or Opie environment, the unit feels like, and I use it as, a PDA. However, I can concede that there are times when I would rather have a laptop replacement, but most of the time I need PDA functionality and usability.
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That's an interesting point.
I always try to make the zaurus a laptop replacement, but OTOH I see the advantages of a PDA vanishing.
The fonts are too small by default, the windows are not maximized by default, the key mapping is not suitable etc.
Although I want the Z to be a mini laptop and no PDA, some PDA-specific things should work, too. PIMs, suspend/resume with instant on, switching off an alarm from ourside via the OK / cancel keys, etc.
It is a lot of work to make such things work with standard software.
So I think it would be necessary, IF a Zaurus-sized device with X86 is developed, to take into accout what you said (that most people will load standard desktop software onto it) and design the hardware for it.
For example a full PC keyoard with F-keys and normal key mapping.
For example a pointing device with a way to use both mouse buttons (maybe a modified key for the screen tap for rigt mouse button emulation).
I would like to see a Z with Intel x86 processor. But it should not have the PDA-like adaptions of the older Zauri.
daniel
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That's an interesting point.
I always try to make the zaurus a laptop replacement, but OTOH I see the advantages of a PDA vanishing.
The fonts are too small by default, the windows are not maximized by default, the key mapping is not suitable etc.
Although I want the Z to be a mini laptop and no PDA, some PDA-specific things should work, too. PIMs, suspend/resume with instant on, switching off an alarm from ourside via the OK / cancel keys, etc.
It is a lot of work to make such things work with standard software.
So I think it would be necessary, IF a Zaurus-sized device with X86 is developed, to take into accout what you said (that most people will load standard desktop software onto it) and design the hardware for it.
For example a full PC keyoard with F-keys and normal key mapping.
For example a pointing device with a way to use both mouse buttons (maybe a modified key for the screen tap for rigt mouse button emulation).
I would like to see a Z with Intel x86 processor. But it should not have the PDA-like adaptions of the older Zauri.
daniel
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I think a X86 processor based system sucks too much power. Even with intel's top low power consumption CPUs, the most they get is a couple of hours. They can get you double the power with a high capacity battery which is also double the size of the regular battery and weights double as much. so compare the weight and size of the battery to the size of the Z's little battery as well as the duration.
As for the other point, X86 systems have tablet enabled software which features touchpad input and screen rotation, ie Windows Tablet Edition. As for "standard desktop software", I would rather call them "badly designed software". The same issue is with web sites that assume everyone uses a huge display with hardcoded sizes, etc.. Keys just need to be mapped. Remember that the newer Zaurus models have a Japanese keyboard and not a US keyboard because it was designed exclusively for the Japanese market. Well designed software allows you to use different keymaps or customise your keys, badly written software does not. same with software that allows you to use utf8 character encodings and change locale versus software that just use ascii and en_US locale.
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i think with x86 chips its more an implementation problem rather than a problem with the x86 architecture, it does have problems but the tranmeta cpus are quite power efficent.
part of the problems are perception, the comman man wants a 2Ghz cpu with loads of ram so that the web will be faster when an older 1Ghz cpu will do. unfortunally you cant have speed and low power due to the limitations of current circutry process (there is actually a formula for it that i cant reember). AMD and intel have gotten smart and relised that you dont need the high speeds and have cpu throttling (which works will IMHO when you get software to handele it
back to usability and i find it funny about the problems with using Pc software on a PDA. I personally use the command line on my Z and there are probbelly only about 3 people who are willing to endure it for any length of time over an hour and only one who enjoys it (). its funny to contrast what you have said with the usability issues of the command line. i like it because its portable.
what i belive there needs to be is the seperation of the interface and the program logic in the programs, this will only work for simplier programs however consider an AJAX model where there is an app (the UI) that makes calls to a server over a pipe to retrive infomation and the server program does the heavy lifting and program logic. make the dispaly program simmilar to html with some built in widgets (ok make it a full blown xms widget system) and wrap it up with a bit of interpreted program logic and make the program interface sourced from /usr/share/<prog name>/<somithng.ui> with an per user override in ~/.<progname>/<somthing>.ui so that with a text editor you can edit the layout of any program
then just ship skins for a 240x320 PDA 320x240 PDA 640x480 PDA and PC resolutions and you are done. basically you move the form design out of the programmers hands (for which i am sure they will be thankful) and move it to the designers/user
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i think with x86 chips its more an implementation problem rather than a problem with the x86 architecture, it does have problems but the tranmeta cpus are quite power efficent.
part of the problems are perception, the comman man wants a 2Ghz cpu with loads of ram so that the web will be faster when an older 1Ghz cpu will do. unfortunally you cant have speed and low power due to the limitations of current circutry process (there is actually a formula for it that i cant reember). AMD and intel have gotten smart and relised that you dont need the high speeds and have cpu throttling (which works will IMHO when you get software to handele it
back to usability and i find it funny about the problems with using Pc software on a PDA. I personally use the command line on my Z and there are probbelly only about 3 people who are willing to endure it for any length of time over an hour and only one who enjoys it (). its funny to contrast what you have said with the usability issues of the command line. i like it because its portable.
what i belive there needs to be is the seperation of the interface and the program logic in the programs, this will only work for simplier programs however consider an AJAX model where there is an app (the UI) that makes calls to a server over a pipe to retrive infomation and the server program does the heavy lifting and program logic. make the dispaly program simmilar to html with some built in widgets (ok make it a full blown xms widget system) and wrap it up with a bit of interpreted program logic and make the program interface sourced from /usr/share/<prog name>/<somithng.ui> with an per user override in ~/.<progname>/<somthing>.ui so that with a text editor you can edit the layout of any program
then just ship skins for a 240x320 PDA 320x240 PDA 640x480 PDA and PC resolutions and you are done. basically you move the form design out of the programmers hands (for which i am sure they will be thankful) and move it to the designers/user
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1GHz transmeta CPU performs worst than a 350Mhz Celeron and it is a power hungry sucker. I got an OQO with a 1GHz transmeta CPU and the battery life is max 3hours with power savings etc...
As for the AJAX programming model, its just another instantiation of MVC with fancy stylesheets.
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have you seen this ... after installinglinux on it, could it be my next zaurus?
http://www.dynamism.com/vega/main.shtml (http://www.dynamism.com/vega/main.shtml)
just needs an external keyboard and a usb-whatever ... and it's USD20 cheaper than a c3200 at dynamism !!
My opinion is that there won't be a really new zaurus (just some mhz or hd upgrade), snif !
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Its twice the price, I know, but what about the Sony Vaio UX?
http://www.dynamism.com/ux/main.shtml (http://www.dynamism.com/ux/main.shtml)
Which appeals to me a lot more because its much more powerful, better screen and integrated keyboard. I've got to have an integrated keyboard and Linux compatible hardware or its a no-go.
Anybody know much about the MPC5200B PPC SoC as used in the Efika (the latest in a long line of Amiga half-cousins)
http://www.genesippc.com/efika.php (http://www.genesippc.com/efika.php)
Surely that chip would be a good contender for use in a PDA? I'd like to see how these embedded PPC chips stack up performance and power-wise against ARM9 and ARM11 chips. Anybody seen a comparison?
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danboid, I think the sony goes to another category, not comparable to the zaurus, due to price and screen size, both much bigger for the sony.
also, the oqo is another category since the price it's much higher, and it's been reported as very noisy. the vega doesn't have any fans, and it's designed for low cpu tasks, much like the zaurus.
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Anyone have any speculation on if and when Sharp will introduce another Zaurus. Am I wrong in thinking that a model with X86 chip (and usual wishlist, larger screen, thiner form factor, bluetooth, wireless G,,,)
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flybook?
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Should we make a poll about your preferrred zaurus replacement if sharp doesn't come up with a new Z?
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I don't think Sharp will significantly update the Z line again. The R&D VP who started the Z moved on to the Zero3, and we talked with the assistant to the current head of the Z project, who categorically stated that they weren't interested in further development on the project. (The context of the conversation may have been off - plus the man's English wasn't great, and the engineer who was talking to him wasn't the most tactful.)
Regardless - the mesage was quite clear. To them, the Z is a glorified dictionary, and they weren't looking into further R&D or allocating budget dollars to it.
This doesn't mean there won't be a new one - just that any new ones will probably be very unimpressive.
My Z additive of choice (Not replacement, but supplement) A Toshiba Libretto U110. Pentium 1.1ghz, 1gb ram, 60g b hd, 908g
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Even the Zaurus in its present form could still be a kick-ass device if there was any really good, full features, finished and polished, software for it.
I'm sure neither pdaXrom, nor Opie, nor GPE are the answers to a satisfying Linux experience on mobile devices. We have a long way to go, but fear not. Look at how good GNOME and KDE are compared to 5 years ago. We will eventually get there, it's just a matter of time...
... and some companies realizing where funding money should be put. I have no doubt that this will happen. Whether the Z-hardware will still be significant enough to be a worthwhile target device is another story...
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any future for linux handhelds would be fine with me. right now, things seem kinda bleak--qtopia put out something cool that I don't want, so did Nokia. Is there anything else? will we see a better nokia device? Will I be forced to buy a blacberry in coming years? stay tuned......
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It is possible that Sharp is waiting for Access to finish off ALP and then release a Z based on it. That is if ALP has a well garnered launch and all that.
The Z seems to stuck in an internal development rut. Embedix is dead outside of Japan and the japanese holders of the Embedix code don't seem to be interested in moving the code forward. Trolltech was interested in moving forward but, seems to have moved onto the mainly phone based platforms on the embedded side of things.
Although there is a ton of community based OS development out here; Sharp seems to be too conservative to reach out to the communtiy and work with them because they can't shake the traditonal manufacturer/supplier arrangements that they are used to dealing with.
Sharp has always struck me as innovative company on the hardware side but, weak in marketing will (they always pull the plug on a product just before the critical mass builds on it) and absolutely abyssmal on the software and interface side. Had they been stronger on the marketing and software/interface sides they might have had a better run against the likes Sony (before their products and reputation imploded -- or should that be exploded . ).
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I don't know whether we will see a significantly updated Zaurus PMT or not, but I don't think that Linux handheld devices are dead just yet. Linux is gaining ground in the phone market and if the UMPC market continues to grow and gain a serious following, I believe we will see Linux versions emerge on to the scene.
Who knows, if this were to happen, maybe Sharp would develop a next generation Zaurus aimed at the UMPC market.
hmmmm a Zaurus UMPC:
7 inch 800x480 LCD
40-80GB drive
1GB RAM
USB
CF slot
802.11g
Bluetooth
GPS
USB 2.0
VGA out
built-in mic, speakers
Touch-screen
Retractable keyboard
Running a Tabletized (new word) Linux OS, much like what Lycoris had years ago
Better yet, keep the clamshell/convertible-to-tablet form factor and model it after the Flybook, only smaller.
Yum Yum
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that'd be col, but really wouldn't fit in my pocket. once it is past pocket size I start thinking 12" powerbook.
Maybe we will see a vga flipphone w/ keyboard? A linux blackberry kind athing?
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Maybe we will see a vga flipphone w/ keyboard? A linux blackberry kind athing?
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If Access ever releases ALP (formerly Palm for Linux), I would expect at least a HVGA Treo running it. A push to higher res (VGA+) would certainly help out ALP alot in regaining the market share the stale Palm OS lost. An HTC Universal competitor with ALP would fit the bill for most people here.
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A Zaurus specifically designed as a UMPC, rahter than a PDA, would be a fascinating beast.
Too bad Sharp will never do it. They've left the Z as a glorified dictionary and aren't interested in doing much with it. (THe man who headed up the Z project initially has moved on to the Sharp W-Zero3 smartphone...)
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I do not think that Sharp will release any model in Zaurus line. I was told once that there were plans to release SL-3100 with WiFi as new model over half year ago but Sharp decided to not go that way.
The problem with Sharp is that they prefer to sell technologies then devices - clamshells were released to show how good "CG Silicon screen" technology is (c700 was based on sl-5600 and got addons like ATI W100 just because pxafb was too slow for VGA screen).
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I also recall that there's an FCC approval sticker inside the 3xxx series, which implied that Sharp considered selling them again overseas; my guess is the failure of their project in the USA for the 6000 meant that they decided to drop any intention of selling the clamshells there?
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I do not think that Sharp will release any model in Zaurus line. I was told once that there were plans to release SL-3100 with WiFi as new model over half year ago but Sharp decided to not go that way.
The problem with Sharp is that they prefer to sell technologies then devices - clamshells were released to show how good "CG Silicon screen" technology is (c700 was based on sl-5600 and got addons like ATI W100 just because pxafb was too slow for VGA screen).
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That seems about right. I also think there is a size issue in device trends. Things seem to be going towards more pocketable, or just not pocketable. The Z clamshell is now a very odd size, it seems to me.
for now, the Z I have is in no need of replacement. It is a marvelous device. The neo 1973 looks like it has a good shot at being the next gadget I might actually want to own. I find the lack of connectivity with my Z annoying ( i live in alaska, you know--not a lot of hotspots) and I really think pocketability is important. otherwise the thing stays home or in the car.
I've said this in about 3 places, now--but I think it needs to be said:
the "next Z" will:
a) fit in a pocket
probably not be made by sharp
c) have better networking abilities, and probably do service as a phone
d) (this is more a bit of optimism, but the neo gives me hope) RUN AN OPEN OS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!!
---and gps would be a big plus.