OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: DrWowe on March 03, 2004, 04:49:36 pm
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Just curious what people think, given Sharp\'s bizarre (to put it nicely) marketing and PR. Will the Zaurus as a product line still be viable and relevant in a couple of years?
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Unless Sharp just never offers the SL-6000 for sale (and I believe they already have, in Japan...), I think that the end users will do the rest. The SL-6000 offers the possibility of two-flavour wireless connectivity, with a CF slot for peripheral expansion (GPS, camera, cell phone card, etc) and an SD slot for flash memory expansion limited only by one\'s budget. If it were for sale today (in US), they would be at the absolute head of the PDA hardware line. (Notwithstanding the \"micro-PC\'s\" that resemble giant PDA\'s with giant price tags.)
Witness the die-hard Zaurites willing to pay premium prices for clamshell models (sold only in Japan by Sharp) that have been anglicised by resellers: the quality of Sharp\'s hardware, combined with the flexibility and transparency of Linux, will create its own market, no matter how freakishly Sharp (mis)targets and (under)promotes the Zaurus.
That said, I do think it\'s a shame that what was clearly (and successfully) engineered for the mass market (speaking of my SL-5600 as an example) has been relegated to the geek niche by Sharp\'s failure to promote their product. The average Joe Blow who sinks $400-500 into a Palm Tungsten C could pay less for a SL-5500 (or maybe even 5600) and Wireless LAN CF card, have true multitasking, better stability, more software (albeit without quite the toddlerlike simplicity of Palm SW installation), and never have to face a command prompt--or even install a terminal client, if he didn\'t want to. The SL-5600 is sufficiently \"idiot-proofed\" that casual use (ie anything you can do with a Palm) is far safer than on Palm or PPC.
The \"rub\" is that having a broader user base--which Sharp could have achieved by better promoting its Zaurii--would have meant more commercial (\"plug-and-play\") peripherals, software, cases, and all the other little extras that come to market when their makers think there are enough potential buyers to justify developing them. Sharp\'s marketing failures have not only cost the company revenue--they have also cost the Zaurus and those of us who use it a \"place at the table\" in the handleld accessory aftermarket.
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I would have to say that I think the Sharp Zaurus models to date have been very nice overall. The idea (and implementation) of the keyboards has been VERY nice, as has the overall quality.
The idea is there, the hardware/innovation development is there... it just seems that the PIMs, support, and marketing are not, which is WACKY, to be honest. How does a firm the size/scope of Sharp do so badly in such regards? Regardless, I have to think that as the apps multiply, get polished (some key ones, like PIMs), and the specs improve over at a natural progression, Sharp would HAVE to hit it big eventually just b/c they can lean on the Linux community for what is already there - they just need to learn how to best leverage the existing knowledge and Linux apps and figure out how to make it appeal to the business market I would suppose. JMO.
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One thing to consider is that right now the Zaurus is still basically the only game in town for a high-end supported hardware that runs Linux natively. (note I\'m not counting unsupported experimental/hobbyist projects like handhelds.org). It seems that people are willing to put up with a lot of inconvenience to get something they really want when there are no alternatives. But how will people react when a less dysfunctional competitor comes out with similar capabilities? For example, if the rumors are true, Psion may be coming out with a Linux handheld. Or maybe someone else could spring up with a Linux handheld in the next few years. Suddenly, putting up with Sharp might be less appealing, if you could buy equally capable hardware with an equally capable open source system, from a vendor that actively supported its own products.
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I\'m looking forward to someone porting Linux to the new Palm compatible models that include built-in keyborads. What would really be interesting is if this happened, and someone like TKC started selling/supporting various handheld devices pre-loaded with a port of the TKC rom or OZ.
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I read once that the brilliant, long-suffering engineers of Jaguar defected, en masse, to Aston Martin, leading to a golden age for the latter, and a bleak period for the former. Perhaps the Zaurus engineers will be similarly lured away by some other firm and the spirit will live on elsewhere.
The fact that it is NATIVE Linux is what appeals to me. Only Psion and perhaps IBM appear to have a taste for trying that. Everyone else lets it be an afterthought or homebrew. I\'m not interested in paying some M$ licensee so they can forward some of the money to Redmond to help pay the $86 million to keep SCO\'s anti-Linux campaign alive. I\'m so tired of people with iPAQs running Linux who complain about SCO when they help finance it! Zaurus is the ONLY real alternative.
Since Zaurus tech support has not heard of the SL-6000 yet, and some other poster pointed out that the SL-6000 must have submitted its own manual and specs to the FCC, I\'m increasingly of the opinion that the most that will live on will be the spirit, not the actual product line.
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I couldn\'t afford a 760 or 860 (bummer). I have a 5500 and an HP2215 iPAQ. the Z is still my production machine. The iPAQ is just too unstable and to gain the functionality that comes stock (or from freeware) with the Z, I will have to spend over $100 on software alone, just to get the iPAQ to do the same work that my Z does now. Once (and if) I can get the iPAQ to work right, I intend to use my Z for development and expiromentation. Currently, the iPAQ is merely an entertainment device. Now if only I could quit feeding my wife and kids for a couple of months, I could afford a 760.
V-Man
V-Man
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Hate to burst your bubble but product viability quite often has nothing to do with sales in the U.S. The Japanese market is large enough and quite often can bear much higher price points than the U.S. with its Wallmartesque drive for bargain pricing. The Zaurus has been successfully selling in Japan since 1993. Eleven years later the Zaurus is still viable -- in fact, whenever new models are released in Japan they usually sell out within days.
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Hate to burst your bubble but product viability quite often has nothing to do with sales in the U.S. The Japanese market is large enough and quite often can bear much higher price points than the U.S. with its Wallmartesque drive for bargain pricing. The Zaurus has been successfully selling in Japan since 1993. Eleven years later the Zaurus is still viable -- in fact, whenever new models are released in Japan they usually sell out within days.
I\'d hate to beat a dead horse, but I just paid over $600 for a well used c760 in the US and I am not alone. These sell for $495 US dollars in Japan. While what you say about Japan sales are true, I can\'t see the point of Sharp not selling these clamshells in the US. People are willing to over pay for them.
Somebody is going to catch on to this and release a linux clamshell to the US and be uncontested by Sharp in the US market. If it turns out to be *better* than the zaurus and they choose to release them to the Japan market Sharp is going to have some unwanted competition.
</end dream>
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I hate to burst the bubbles of all the beaten dead horses, but the view of the USA as nothing but walmart shoppers seeking shit at the lowest prices is OVUH. Just look at the sellout of the iPod mini over cheaper machines this week. There is a market at the high end here, and Sharp ignores it.
Sharp has also managed to piss off Japanese consumers, e.g., with the discontinuation of the A line, and someone *could* knock the Z off its pedestal in Japan, *and* knock off the pocketpeecees in Europe and the USA. All they need is Sharp\'s engineers and somebody who got better than a D+ in marketing.
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I hate to burst the bubbles of all the beaten dead horses...
Nice
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All they need is Sharp\'s engineers and somebody who got better than a D+ in marketing.
Well said. I\'m trying to get inside the head of Sharp management, but it seems that there isn\'t enough room!
As far as Wallmarts and bargain prices go, Wallmart has less to do with the bargain price push when compared to the internet. The bargain price push is strongly reflected in the US because it is the natural progression of economics - if there isn\'t additional quality in something that I buy locally or from a high-end electronics store, then why not go to Best Buy or some website for it? Conversely, if I need support, I better not go to Best Buy or order it from a random web site!
There\'s a correct price for everything, and I will agree with the other posters here that our willingness to overpay for these PDAs in the US shows the demand. The only issues up for debate IMO are:
- how many of \"us\" - those willing to buy these PDAs - are there?
- at what price point will you maximize your profit?
- who should I hire to replace my marketing manager for these dang PDAs??
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I just thought I\'d mention that there are at least two other Linux handhelds, although none with a community the size of that for the Zaurus. Softfield sells units like the old Agenda VR3 and the Yopy 3700 has very similar specs to that of the Zaurus 5500.
I wrote a mini-review comparing the Yopy 3700 to the Zaurus 5500 at http://www.jroller.com/page/ericfj/2004030...he_geekiest_pda (http://www.jroller.com/page/ericfj/20040305#yopy_the_geekiest_pda). I think the Yopy is more \"Linuxy\" than the Zaurus (except for the X11 ROM efforts), but somewhat more primitive feeling than the Zaurus.
Note that I am _not_ trying to start a flame fest. I own both a Zaurus and a Yopy.
Peace,
-Eric
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I just thought I\'d mention that there are at least two other Linux handhelds, although none with a community the size of that for the Zaurus. Softfield sells units like the old Agenda VR3 and the Yopy 3700 has very similar specs to that of the Zaurus 5500.
I wrote a mini-review comparing the Yopy 3700 to the Zaurus 5500 at http://www.jroller.com/page/ericfj/2004030...he_geekiest_pda (http://www.jroller.com/page/ericfj/20040305#yopy_the_geekiest_pda). I think the Yopy is more \"Linuxy\" than the Zaurus (except for the X11 ROM efforts), but somewhat more primitive feeling than the Zaurus.
Note that I am _not_ trying to start a flame fest. I own both a Zaurus and a Yopy.
Peace,
-Eric
Damn you Eric! You\'ve added something else to my wishlist
The Yopy looks nice, but the small community is a bit of a turnoff.
Thanks for the info, I think
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The \"rub\" is that having a broader user base--which Sharp could have achieved by better promoting its Zaurii--would have meant more commercial (\"plug-and-play\") peripherals, software, cases, and all the other little extras that come to market when their makers think there are enough potential buyers to justify developing them. Sharp\'s marketing failures have not only cost the company revenue--they have also cost the Zaurus and those of us who use it a \"place at the table\" in the handleld accessory aftermarket.
I\'m curious (and I know it\'s probably been discussed elsewhere but I wasn\'t paying attention). What software is \"missing\" from the Zaurus? I really like the suite that Sharp supports and, with Jeode, I can cobble up little apps of my own in Java and be happy as a clam(shell).
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I sometimes forget the excellent Yopy alternative because I\'m obsessed with getting the 640x480 at 4\" diag in the SL-6000. Also, my former officemate had an ancient Sharp laptop whose display never grew old, while all the other laptops in the office dimmed with age. His (Japan-purchased) Sharp had an ancient processor, but it was a pleasure to look at---I even used it in a video promoting my software, rather than using a newer notebook, just because the Sharp display was so, well, sharp.
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The \"rub\" is that having a broader user base--which Sharp could have achieved by better promoting its Zaurii--would have meant more commercial (\"plug-and-play\") peripherals, software, cases, and all the other little extras that come to market when their makers think there are enough potential buyers to justify developing them. Sharp\'s marketing failures have not only cost the company revenue--they have also cost the Zaurus and those of us who use it a \"place at the table\" in the handleld accessory aftermarket.
I\'m curious (and I know it\'s probably been discussed elsewhere but I wasn\'t paying attention). What software is \"missing\" from the Zaurus? I really like the suite that Sharp supports and, with Jeode, I can cobble up little apps of my own in Java and be happy as a clam(shell).
For me, the biggest (really, only) deficiency is a high-quality drug reference. TxDrug was a respectable effort, but as far as I can tell, it\'s no longer maintained, and it\'s not really adequate for clinical use. I\'ve read Darien Kruss\' page (http://zaurus.kruss.com/software_sharp.php#10) about successfully running ePocrates under QPose, but my experience (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2152&highlight=qpose+5600) was less fruitful.
I contacted ePocrates about the possibility of supporting the Z, and their response was along the lines of \"Zaur--what? Yeah, well, get back to us when you can name three other physicians who use that, uhh, whatever-it-is.\" It\'s frustrating that a device which could have enjoyed far greater mainstream market share (with a little decent marketing) instead languishes in almost underground status--and us with it!
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I\'m happy with the Z the way it is, it\'s a small community of enthusiasts, it reminds me of the british home computer revolution in the 80\'s, with little niche groups viciously defending their ZX Spectrums, Acorn Electrons and VIC-20\'s. I quite like that, is it elitist? I don\'t really care.
If it was \'common\' like palm and pocketpc/wince or whatever they call it this week, it would loose it\'s charm and uniqueness. Since I can\'t stand this bluetooth/wiffy wifi trend I am a happy customer and can add those options if and when I decide. A mini UNIX workstation in my pocket? wow! Good enough for me.
Then again I used the HP 200LX for about 7 years and didn\'t give a flying hoot about the fact it was no longer made or supported.
These issues are important I suppose for palm etc. users or the kind of (odd) people that buy a PDA every week just because it\'s cool or like to brag about a their growing heap of PDAs, thats my view anyway, dont flame me. I buy for the long haul, I got my 5500 cheap second hand off ebay after ditching a Sony Clie (which was obsolete before I got it out of the box), I am now investing in an 860 to save getting a Linux laptop and PDA.
As long as Sharp make these as a service(?) to the Linux community I am happy with the current situation. If they stop making it, well I\'ve got mine, so I\'m alright jack.
Will it be relevant in 2 years? Moreover, does it really matter? As long as WE, the people who love them still get to play with them?
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Basically, software-wise, there are few things missing IMO. Maybe syncing notes from KOrganizer wouldn\'t really hurt, and being able to use Kitchensync to install software wouldn\'t hurt really bad neither. We already have an astronomy program, and I can even look up train time tables on my Z if I want.
My personal wish list:
- release (yes, release) the C860 with Opie factory-installed.
- Make a successor to the 860 with internal WiFi and a 4 GB hard disk for the hardcore folks. This implies a larger battery as well.
- give it bluetooth so if I want to have a real keyboard and mouse nearby, I can use them with the Z
Basically, there are four form factors a PDA should have models for:
- cell phone a la Handspring Treo 600
- Zaurus SL5500/5600/6000
- C860
- mini-laptop akin to the Toshiba Libretto, but with no real PC hardware inside (the Intel PXA series is probably more power efficient). Get it a 2.5\" harddisk. This piece should have Wifi, Bluetooth and a PCMCIA slot so we can put in UMTS or GSM cards data cards. And ethernet, as well as USB ports and maybe 1394.
All the afore-mentioned machines need at least a CF and a SD slot as well, I\'m not so hot on SDIO though as I currently don\'t see a violent need for it, but this could change if it doesn\'t add to the cost in a significant way. The last machine will compete with real laptops though.
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pdaxrom now has javarm, kaffe, classpath, etc.
http://zaurus.spy.org/feeds/davonz (http://zaurus.spy.org/feeds/davonz)
Scott