OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cyberdoc1971 on November 09, 2006, 12:59:44 pm
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Not trying to complain, I now a lot of the forums are set for the technicial and programming side of the Zaurus. However, lately I have seen little to no new threads for news information, Zaurus games, utlities, etc. There have even been fewer threads from new Zaurus owners. I just don't want this to becme a technician's-only site, I just feel there needs to be more interaction around here.
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I've noticed that when I check new posts in the morning, there is hardly ever more than one page, where there used to be 2-3 pages of new posts every day.
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most influx of new owners happen with the launch of a new zaurus and many current owners have their "setup". If an exciting new zaurus was announced, you would see more activity. Also many of the things people need answer for have already been answered.
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I'm almost ready to post something exciting.
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Also new releases of OZ or pdax tend to produce a flurry of tests and posts and updates.
both distros have been doing incremental improvement lately, i think
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newbys used to be able to register and ask away newbyish questions which could had been answered if they searched the forums first. these days, when people register, it takes a while until they are allowed to post. during tjis period, they can search and read the forums and by the time they have permission to post, most of their newby questions are gone since they already found an answer to their question by reading past posts...
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I've noticed some decline too. I guess this is the time to systematize the information that is already in the forums. Create more how-to's. Address some old unresolved issues/problems.
Meanie's approach to things (creating proactive manual) is great. I think his manual is responsible for answering 70% of questions. Maybe we all could document our experiences with different software, hardware, tips like Meanie did without waiting for questions. We could search for old forgotten software and have a thread to bring it back to life/attention. Our "Essential Z Software Megapost!" is just a list of software that people used. Maybe it should be more systematized with some description and short notes on how to use it. Comparison of several similar programs could be helpful for newbies.
Also some software has reached usable and mature stage and developers moved on. Can we get new developers interested in continuing the existing programs?
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I've noticed some decline too. I guess this is the time to systematize the information that is already in the forums. Create more how-to's. Address some old unresolved issues/problems.
Meanie's approach to things (creating proactive manual) is great. I think his manual is responsible for answering 70% of questions. Maybe we all could document our experiences with different software, hardware, tips like Meanie did without waiting for questions. We could search for old forgotten software and have a thread to bring it back to life/attention. Our "Essential Z Software Megapost!" is just a list of software that people used. Maybe it should be more systematized with some description and short notes on how to use it. Comparison of several similar programs could be helpful for newbies.
Also some software has reached usable and mature stage and developers moved on. Can we get new developers interested in continuing the existing programs?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145932\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I agree we need more comparisons on essential programs, and we need more developers especially on the games/multimedia side. Also, I love Meanie's pdf maual; it answers a lot of questions for the first-time user, and great as a pdf on your Z when you come to a "what do I do now?" issue.
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Also, it hasn't been mentioned much, there needs to be more development/participation/intrest for themes and walpapers as well. After being with Mobility Site & 1Src for a while, I feel that this site could be a lot more.
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Also, it hasn't been mentioned much, there needs to be more development/participation/intrest for themes and walpapers as well. After being with Mobility Site & 1Src for a while, I feel that this site could be a lot more.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146017\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
A lot of people here donate their services for FREE!!
Plus they also have a life.
I don't think you've got much to complain about.
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Perhaps I am over stepping my grounds here as I rarely post unless I have a severe issue... But here are my two cents. OESF wasn't created by some sort of business that is trying to battle with competetors. Instead, oesf was created as a way for all of us to get together and unite our minds toward the furthering of the embedded linux platform. As such, to touch on what Mr. Bear said, everyone who runs this site, programs for the various roms or writes fantstic guide books is doing it as a hobby. This is not a job for most of us. We do it because we enjoy it. Taking this into account I am pretty damn impressed at the amount of information that is held within these forums. I am sure if you turned the amount of hours used for programming, web design and answering questions into a monetary amount, we could feed a small country!:)
I don't think it's relly fair to state what type of themes you want in a forum that is comprised of people doing a hobby.
Maybe I'm wrong. It's happened before
In the end, we all rock because we are using linux/bsd and sticking it to microshaft.
--Fish
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Perhaps I am over stepping my grounds here as I rarely post unless I have a severe issue... But here are my two cents. OESF wasn't created by some sort of business that is trying to battle with competetors. Instead, oesf was created as a way for all of us to get together and unite our minds toward the furthering of the embedded linux platform. As such, to touch on what Mr. Bear said, everyone who runs this site, programs for the various roms or writes fantstic guide books is doing it as a hobby. This is not a job for most of us. We do it because we enjoy it. Taking this into account I am pretty damn impressed at the amount of information that is held within these forums. I am sure if you turned the amount of hours used for programming, web design and answering questions into a monetary amount, we could feed a small country!:)
I don't think it's relly fair to state what type of themes you want in a forum that is comprised of people doing a hobby.
Maybe I'm wrong. It's happened before
In the end, we all rock because we are using linux/bsd and sticking it to microshaft.
--Fish
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I wasn't trying to say any of this, I just thought there needs to be more intrest/developmet in certian forums and not make some of us novice users left out. I mean I've been using Linux for the past 2 years, and I still feel like a newbie.
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I wasn't trying to say any of this, I just thought there needs to be more interest/development in certian forums and not make some of us novice users left out. I mean I've been using Linux for the past 2 years, and I still feel like a newbie.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146023\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I agree and as my boss tells me.. "If you see it, you own it!" A.K.A. If you announce a problem you gotta fix it, or find a way to fix it.
But I see and can appreciate your enthusiasm and good intentions. Keep it up and make it happen.
I've been using Linux for 10+ years and feel like a newbie some times.
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It is quiet. We are waiting for the new zaurus release and then questions will rise again. We have less developers than before.
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I know it's a little off my topic, but what do you think the new Z will be like and when? I have heard all the speculation, and it is a crying shame that we have so few developers.
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I haven't been posting lately because I've just discovered a cool game for the PC. (It's a long one)
Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion
See this post:
https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=146114 (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=21708&view=findpost&p=146114)
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I haven't been posting lately because I've just discovered a cool game for the PC. (It's a long one)
Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion
See this post:
https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=146114 (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=21708&view=findpost&p=146114)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146117\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Ya, I'm playing it on my Intel iMac. Great series, but defiantly a time sucker.
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I haven't been posting lately because I've just discovered a cool game for the PC. (It's a long one)
Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion
See this post:
https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=146114 (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=21708&view=findpost&p=146114)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146117\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Ya, I'm playing it on my Intel iMac. Great series, but defiantly a time sucker.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146119\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
same for me but on my PSP
no, to be honest, i've discovered OpenBSD on my C3000 and i'm spending time (nights!) compiling packages to it ! i really think openbsd is THE zaurus distro we are waiting (specially for the C3000!!!), although there are still some quirks...
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I've noticed some decline too. I guess this is the time to systematize the information that is already in the forums. Create more how-to's. Address some old unresolved issues/problems.
Hear-hear!
Si
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I find that this blog is quite useful for tracking interesting events in the world of zaurians:
http://www.tyrannozaurus.com/ (http://www.tyrannozaurus.com/)
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no, to be honest, i've discovered OpenBSD on my C3000 and i'm spending time (nights!) compiling packages to it ! i really think openbsd is THE zaurus distro we are waiting (specially for the C3000!!!), although there are still some quirks...
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
pdaXrom seems to be getting a lot of new packages recently.
I think there are two key issues for Z software:
1) the quality of the device drivers in the kernel (i.e. whether to stick with sharp & derivatives, especially cacko, and get stability at the cost of features, or to go with OZ and k2.6.17 etc).
2) the ease of porting apps designed for PDA use to the GUI (whether GTK/X11 like GPE, qtopie or opie, or plain X11).
which way you lean for 1 comes down to whether you want a PDA or a mini linux workstation. For 2, sadly, you have to make the choice because the Z doesn't have the raw performance to load a full set of drivers and libraries to run the best apps from the different gui systems all at the same time.
I think a lot of people start with Cacko, might dip their feet in OZ, and depending how they get on, stick with OZ or even jump to pdaXrom, or go back to Cacko and wait patiently for a slow evolution rather than the OZ bleeding-edge revolution.
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I find that this blog is quite useful for tracking interesting events in the world of zaurians:
http://www.tyrannozaurus.com/ (http://www.tyrannozaurus.com/)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Thanks for the Link, has some good info.
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I find that this blog is quite useful for tracking interesting events in the world of zaurians:
http://www.tyrannozaurus.com/ (http://www.tyrannozaurus.com/)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Thanks for the Link, has some good info.
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Thank Antikx... its his site :-)
Late
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Thank Antikx... its his site :-)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146276\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I don't know why antikz obscures the URL in his sig... I could understand obfuscating an email address but that's a bit odd.
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Talking from my own experience. As I moved from SharpROM to pdaXrom, the problems I had are less Z specific, but kind of linux problems in general. So I'd spent more time googling the net, reading posts/other linux forums, etc... than posting immature questions/answers in the forum. I guess same trend happens when people move to OpenBSD or OZ.
So maybe the lack of the activity in the forum is not a bad sign at all, rather a sign of maturity of our community.
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In a way I agree with xjqian. I also find myself hunting for sources and information for linux in general, perhaps even more often than searching the forums, after i switched to pdaXrom about a year ago.
OpenBSD is also very tempting to try as soon as there is SD support.
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In my case, it's because there is not much new going on with the sl5500. I do lurk a lot absorbing general knowledge (and following what I call "the dream/wish" threads like anything with "new Zaurus," or Zaurus replacement," in the title), but posting is not necessary. I can't think of any new questions to ask concerning my two sl5500s, which are both running Cacko Crow (and which I am very happy with) and it's very rare for me to see anyone newbier than I asking anything that I could answer. I do have an extra Z to try new stuff on, but I never can seem to get OZ working properly and as far as the sl5500, the new OZ releases are THE bad (as in good/bad), the bold and the new. I am glad that the forum is here and even though I don't post much, it's not due to lack of interest (yeah forget all that other stuff, that's what I really meant to say).
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OpenBSD is also very tempting to try as soon as there is SD support.
yeah, it's a little bit annoying altough you can use a usb host cable with a sdcard reader
in fact i was talking about installing another OS on the SL-C3000 specificaly as it appears that Cacko ou pdaxrom are difficult to install on it...
installing openbsd on my c3000 was quite a charm, and once installed it is running out of the box without googling for configuration help
moreover on openbsd you can compile and install your own packages directly on the zaurus with xscale optimization
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Thank Antikx... its his site :-)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146276\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I don't know why antikz obscures the URL in his sig... I could understand obfuscating an email address but that's a bit odd.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146293\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I was having to moderate 30-50 spam comments a day, so I deceided to change my sig so that it may not get harvested as easily.
I've since found a better way to deal with the spam comments, so the next time I'm in my sig, I'll change it back.
I'm strange, I know.
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Most users ever online was 161 on Nov 13 2006, 12:53 PM
Lack of intrest ?
Chero.
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moreover on openbsd you can compile and install your own packages directly on the zaurus with xscale optimization
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146337\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
With OE and even ptxdist you can compile your own packages on your much faster workstation with xscale optimizations. I for one am not waiting 20 to 50 times longer for a compile just for 'OMG z4uru5 gcc!!!!' geek cred. Try compiling giac with -O2 on your Z.
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I too have an SL5500 and have pretty much given up using it.
Although I lurk here every day, I haven't switched the Z on for months. The reason? It just doesn't work properly. I used OZ3.2 for ages as a pdf reader and mp3 player, ignored 3.3.6 then jumped to 3.5 and that's when things went downhill rapidly.
I know this is just a hobby for the developers, but the sad fact is that if it stays as a hodge-podge of half/untested code and labrynthine documentation those of us who want to USE our Zs will give up and walk away.
It's the most basic problems that are the most annoying - in my case the suspend/resume and mplayer not being able to play mp2 files properly. The suspend/resume bug was fixed in an older release but is now back, and the mplayer bug has been around for a few months but no-one bothered to reply when I raised it on the fora a while back.
That and the general instability of the software means that I spent most of my time rebooting the unit as I couldn't just switch it on and continue where I left off, which I could do with 3.2 (for months on end).
This isn't progress, it's just the M$ style of developement where coders are only interested in the newest shiniest code and hardware leaving the rest of us in the dust.
Oh, and the argument about "well if you don't like it, fix it yourself!" displays exactly the attitude problem here - not all of us are coders (well, I am but my area of expertise is 12 years of application programming and 7 years SQL developement), or have the time to learn the dev. environment.
As a consequence, I now have a multimedia player (20Gb) and use my trusty printer for documents, and the Z has been an expensive paperweight for some time.
Maybe things will improve, but I doubt it as there is no pride in producing a quality product here, and although there are a few excellent, helpful coders here, the general attitude seems to be that each coder is doing it for his own self-gratification or glory from fellow geeks.
I'm sorry for this lengthy rant, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. All I can hope for is that it contributes to a wake up call that will refocus the developers to get their house in order before they are deserted by the rest of the non-developer community here.
Arnie
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Arnie,
What is wrong with one of the sharp rom deviants? As mentioned before there is a cacko rom for the 5500 or the ol' tkcrom. It should be relatively stable and have added functionality. I can't comment on mp2, but I find the latest mplayers for the sharp rom to be very functional.
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Arnie,
What is wrong with one of the sharp rom deviants? As mentioned before there is a cacko rom for the 5500 or the ol' tkcrom. It should be relatively stable and have added functionality. I can't comment on mp2, but I find the latest mplayers for the sharp rom to be very functional.
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I have to agree with you on that one, even though I have the C3100 not the 5500, Cacko is very stable, and I believe it supports the MP2 files. Trying not to get off topic, my major gripe lately is that there is little or new news on anything Linux or Zaurus.
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Arnie,
What is wrong with one of the sharp rom deviants? As mentioned before there is a cacko rom for the 5500 or the ol' tkcrom. It should be relatively stable and have added functionality. I can't comment on mp2, but I find the latest mplayers for the sharp rom to be very functional.
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I have to agree with you on that one, even though I have the C3100 not the 5500, Cacko is very stable, and I believe it supports the MP2 files. Trying not to get off topic, my major gripe lately is that there is little or new news on anything Linux or Zaurus.
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i think what he means is that if you have a working Cacko (or openBSD!) on the zaurus, you only have to compile and you have whatever new piece of software you want
but i repeat, i was speaking about the C3000 which cannot run Cacko or OE like the C3100 or C3200 can (at least when i look in the forums!) ... so it is great to see that Openbsd do actually support the C3000 (although with some difficulties
i've bought my C3000 quite when it was just out ; so it was soooo expensive i would not like to throw it away
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but i repeat, i was speaking about the C3000 which cannot run Cacko or OE like the C3100 or C3200 can (at least when i look in the forums!) .
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=146353\")
I think you mean OZ and, yes that runs perfectly on a c3000, grab the spitz image from [a href=\"http://ewi546.ewi.utwente.nl/mirror/www.openzaurus.org/official/unstable/3.5.4.1/images/]http://ewi546.ewi.utwente.nl/mirror/www.op...3.5.4.1/images/[/url]
OE (and hence OZ) does not distinguish between the c3000, c3100 and c3200 since they are the same machine kernelwise and don't have any different features userspace should care about.
With altboot you could even dualboot it into *bsd if you want
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I too have an SL5500 and have pretty much given up using it.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146342\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
You can always use it to run a server service at home. It has a small footprint and can run a variety of services. SSH, FTP, etc....
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I have to wade in here I'm afraid...
I know this is just a hobby for the developers, but the sad fact is that if it stays as a hodge-podge of half/untested code and labrynthine documentation those of us who want to USE our Zs will give up and walk away.
That's understandable.
It's the most basic problems that are the most annoying - in my case the suspend/resume and mplayer not being able to play mp2 files properly. The suspend/resume bug was fixed in an older release but is now back, and the mplayer bug has been around for a few months but no-one bothered to reply when I raised it on the fora a while back.
Asking on the forum is unlikely to get you much developer exposure. Use the bugtracker or ask on the mailing list. I don't know why the suspend bug has come back, but perhaps someone could enlighten me. Likewise the mp2 problem. I think part of the frustration is not getting an answer, which is related to where you're asking.
This isn't progress, it's just the M$ style of developement where coders are only interested in the newest shiniest code and hardware leaving the rest of us in the dust.
As you said above, this is a hobby, therefore it's to be expected that many developers will be interested in different things, and often those are new things. With that said, there are those who want to produce a polished product, but it depends on what bits they use, if they don't use it they won't be all that motivated.
Oh, and the argument about "well if you don't like it, fix it yourself!" displays exactly the attitude problem here - not all of us are coders (well, I am but my area of expertise is 12 years of application programming and 7 years SQL developement), or have the time to learn the dev. environment.
Adding bugs with plenty of information is a good way to start if you don't want to do the coding yourself.
Maybe things will improve, but I doubt it as there is no pride in producing a quality product here, and although there are a few excellent, helpful coders here, the general attitude seems to be that each coder is doing it for his own self-gratification or glory from fellow geeks.
As you said above, this is a hobby, there is no other reason to do it than those you mentioned, though I'd replace geeks with users. If a developer knows that enough people want/need something doing, then they may be encouraged to do it.
I'm sorry for this lengthy rant, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. All I can hope for is that it contributes to a wake up call that will refocus the developers to get their house in order before they are deserted by the rest of the non-developer community here.
Although this would be a bad thing, it's not necessarily the driving factor for a developer, certainly not for one who's not being paid. As you said above, interest value/challenge of a problem, and kudos are the two factors (IMO), one needs to appeal to one or both of these.
Si
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I think we have gotten a bit off topic here. I am all for helping out others, but I think someone needs to start a new thread to help address the others in some of the software issues.
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but i repeat, i was speaking about the C3000 which cannot run Cacko or OE like the C3100 or C3200 can (at least when i look in the forums!) ... so it is great to see that Openbsd do actually support the C3000 (although with some difficulties
i've bought my C3000 quite when it was just out ; so it was soooo expensive i would not like to throw it away
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146353\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
in theory a c3000 can have its flash upgraded to the full 128Mb (or even bigger, but then you'd have to patch the boot loader too). it requires a bit of surface mount soldering, if you didn't mind destroying the old flash device you could do it relatively safely. the key part is ensuring you have a known good working new 128MB flash device to implant.
but this is already covered in the hardware mods section.
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Just wanted to add that I am very thankful for all the help I have gotten from this forum, from both devs and even other newbs when I first started and although not as much new is happening on the sl5500, I find it very useful and usable. In fact, with the more stable roms, Cacko & tKc IMO, everything that I use (albeit, I don't use my Zs for internet, mostly PDA, ebooks and reference progs and ocasionally music on tKc player) works so well that I get bored and (when time permits) try OE again from time to time.
I think it's great that we have a choice between the stable and the cutting edge and since I have an extra, I can always try the cutting edge stuff without sacrificing my everyday use. My point in my first post, was toward the topic and specifically why I don't post as much as I used to. I have just as much interest in the forum as ever, I just don't have as much reason to post. I check almost everyday, just to see if there is anything of interest, but lately it's been more from a passive lurking and learning perspective.
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I have to wade in here I'm afraid...
Asking on the forum is unlikely to get you much developer exposure. Use the bugtracker or ask on the mailing list. I don't know why the suspend bug has come back, but perhaps someone could enlighten me. Likewise the mp2 problem. I think part of the frustration is not getting an answer, which is related to where you're asking.
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Can I propose you get the OZ forums here on oesf.org frozen/locked.. there's no point in them being here, if what you say is right. And the OZ website news section is closed to comments, and the wiki is very very slow, and quite disorganised, so is a pain to use. So, might as well become a mailing-list only group and simply get people to search the list archives for information?
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simply get people to search the list archives for information?
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=146419\")
Heh, most people here can't even find the 'search' button in these fora nor locate [a href=\"http://google.com]http://google.com[/url], and you expect them to search mailinglists?
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Si, you are most definintely one of the devs who makes me stick around here...
Asking on the forum is unlikely to get you much developer exposure. Use the bugtracker or ask on the mailing list. I don't know why the suspend bug has come back, but perhaps someone could enlighten me. Likewise the mp2 problem. I think part of the frustration is not getting an answer, which is related to where you're asking.
Thank you, I wasn't aware of the situation.
Adding bugs with plenty of information is a good way to start if you don't want to do the coding yourself.
Indeed, my experience of that got me no response (here), well, the thread carried on with my issue ignored. Do I sound bitter? ;-)
I will have a look at cacko now, I'm sure there was a reason why I chose OZ in the first instance, but I can't remember...
Thanks once again!
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simply get people to search the list archives for information?
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=146419\")
Heh, most people here can't even find the 'search' button in these fora nor locate [a href=\"http://google.com]http://google.com[/url], and you expect them to search mailinglists?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
That's a pretty arrogant, smug comment don't you think?
Most of us have lives outside of the Zaurus and as such have better things to do than spend ages sifting through the disorganised mess that is the Zaurus documentation world. Have you actually tried using google to solve a Z-related problem? It's a nightmare, and unless one knows exactly what the distribution one is using is based on, it's sometimes impossible to find related information.
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simply get people to search the list archives for information?
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=146419\")
Heh, most people here can't even find the 'search' button in these fora nor locate [a href=\"http://google.com]http://google.com[/url], and you expect them to search mailinglists?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
well, you clearly only want highly technical people linux experts to use OZ, and not regular people, so you might as well all climb into your ivory tower and pull the ladder up behind you!
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Have you actually tried using google to solve a Z-related problem? It's a nightmare, and unless one knows exactly what the distribution one is using is based on, it's sometimes impossible to find related information.
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No, I haven't, since I always work from the assumption that using a debian-based distro makes 99% of the problems unrelated to the machine it's running on. For the other 1% I'll ask the developer working on that area directly. If those steps don't solve it, I file a bug in the bugtracker of the project involved. That way all my problems get documented and hence indexed by google.
Complaining in some random forum with the assumption that the developers *must* read it is a dead end, deal with it.
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simply get people to search the list archives for information?
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=146419\")
Heh, most people here can't even find the 'search' button in these fora nor locate [a href=\"http://google.com]http://google.com[/url], and you expect them to search mailinglists?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
well, you clearly only want highly technical people linux experts to use OZ, and not regular people, so you might as well all climb into your ivory tower and pull the ladder up behind you!
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146423\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I don't care about OZ, but it would be refreshing if people would spend 5 minutes searching the web before starting to complain about (already solved) problems.
To illustrate the problem:
I once wrote a 10 step download/install wizard with every step in a seperate page. You could click on your machine, select the flavour you wanted (opie, gpe, bootstrap, etc), and it would give you 1 tarball with all the needed files. After that there was in installation instruction with lots of screenshots of the different states. Every page started with "make sure you read the release notes" and ended with the same (including a link to said release notes).
The release notes started with with a big fat note that some versions of the bootloader would make opie fail to start up, including instructions how to work around it.
As you might have guessed, tons of people were complaining that opie didn't start and asking for a solution. When asked if the solution mentioned in the release notes worked the response was "Release notes?".
That experience has taught me that the only way to avoid complaints is to have a perfect result. It also taught me that people should file bugs for problems they encounter, because after some investigation it turned out people had seen the problem, but said "Opie doesn't start, this stuff sucks!", but didn't tell it to the developers (via mail, irc, bugzilla, etc).
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It also taught me that people should file bugs for problems they encounter, because after some investigation it turned out people had seen the problem, but said "Opie doesn't start, this stuff sucks!", but didn't tell it to the developers (via mail, irc, bugzilla, etc).
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I can summarize that with:
"It is extremely hard to solve problems you aren't aware of"
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Can I propose you get the OZ forums here on oesf.org frozen/locked.. there's no point in them being here, if what you say is right. And the OZ website news section is closed to comments, and the wiki is very very slow, and quite disorganised, so is a pain to use. So, might as well become a mailing-list only group and simply get people to search the list archives for information?
I said more exposure I think. The forums here serve a purpose, which is to answer less technical questions (and some more technical if there's a dev reading who's interested). The website comments are closed as hrw was too busy to administer it. I'm sorry if the wiki is slow, it seems to work ok for me, but it may be a time of day thing.
Disorganisation of the wiki is my fault, I should spend more time sorting it out, but as with others, I also have a job and a life. I gladly accept help and the addition/correction of articles...
Si, you are most definintely one of the devs who makes me stick around here...
I'm glad to help (when I have time, which is increasingly short these days).
Indeed, my experience of that got me no response (here), well, the thread carried on with my issue ignored. Do I sound bitter? ;-)
See if there's a bug open, add your info to it, would be my recommendation. Sorry I can't help more than that at the moment.
Most of us have lives outside of the Zaurus and as such have better things to do than spend ages sifting through the disorganised mess that is the Zaurus documentation world. Have you actually tried using google to solve a Z-related problem? It's a nightmare, and unless one knows exactly what the distribution one is using is based on, it's sometimes impossible to find related information.
Indeed we do all have lives (and jobs), so where does one draw the line between providing and using information, it's as much up to you to look as it is to us to provide info (more so in fact as you're the one with the problem to solve). These things require cooperation. If the docs/information resources/HowTos/etc. are poorly organised, then please help organise them, etc. In the same way, if you encounter a bug, please file a bugreport and provide as much info as you can for the devs so they don't have to waste time trying to reproduce it, etc.
well, you clearly only want highly technical people linux experts to use OZ, and not regular people, so you might as well all climb into your ivory tower and pull the ladder up behind you!
No, but it's not the responsibility of the core devs to field questions and produce docs, this is for further down the chain - both because the people further down the chain have the time (as they're not doing the development) and because they know the kinds of questions that need to be answered.
Si
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Going back on topic, I do think that trawling through the forum and producing docs - from howtos to histories, etc. would be worthwhile as the volume of data on the forum is rather large (and repetitive which makes searching difficult at times).
Si
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Going back on topic, I do think that trawling through the forum and producing docs - from howtos to histories, etc. would be worthwhile as the volume of data on the forum is rather large (and repetitive which makes searching difficult at times).
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Agreed!
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Trying to keep on topic, apparently I see a lot of posts in regards to solving tech issues. I only intended this thread to generate intrest in the areas that are dead or dying (Linux news, games, wallpaper/themes, office apps, multimedia apps, utilities, beginer experiences, etc.), not really as a call center to troubleshoot. I have no gripes against the people that need help, but I feel that they should do a search for the problems that they are having, or start a new topic in the appropiate forum.
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Could I suggest we clean up the forums here?
Some old posts are really old and irrelavent nowadays. Also there're lots of naive ones (e.g. how to de-magnify gui in sharp roms) that have been asked again and again. All these make search painful. Could they be moved into an obsolete/archive forum, (of course in an unbiased way).
e.g. we can flag those old/irrelavent posts to the mod. If the mod agree, he can move those posts to a "deprecate" forum. People can agree/object the "deprecation" in that forum by voting. If no objection is received, those posts get deprectaed into the "obsolete/archive" forum, in a way that don't get involved in the searching.
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I think that's an interesting idea.
Some old posts are really old and irrelavent nowadays.
But I think it would still be worthwhile documenting them.
Also there're lots of naive ones (e.g. how to de-magnify gui in sharp roms) that have been asked again and again.
These could be placed into the relevant HowTos/FAQs. There's an OZ wiki (http://wiki.openzaurus.org/), where are the other 'distros' wikis/FAQ entries?
Could they be moved into an obsolete/archive forum, (of course in an unbiased way).
This may not be necessary as people could use the date filter, except for those posts which don't add anything new - the kind of thing I used to post: "use search and search for "such and such", which are a pain as they contain the search term (sorry!).
I like the idea though, and as people will be reading these posts, they will be able to distil the contents into HowTos/FAQs.
Si
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Kind of sort of archiving old posts, but have them avaiable to everyone?
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i would love for some people who join this fourm and ask questions to relise that just because its a Z dosent mean that the software acts any diffrentlly to when its used on a real PC
seems we get people asking obvios questions about linux because the percive linux on the Z as bieng a compleattly diffrent OS to the linux on the PC.
extending on that idea is people who post a question to the c3000 section for example that really is a general question and not c3000 specific (eg cant get usbnet working with my home PC which i see alot of in networking fourm[/rant]
i guess a general model specific faq thats sticky would be a good idea, havent checked but i assume most have them in some form or another but perhaps an update with liniks to a relevent post?
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Hey folks,
(Yes I really am still alive.) I just dropped by for the first time in seemingly forever and instantly tripped over this post. It's a meaningful one in my opinion. Because of health issues I'm away for looong periods of time and then binge on the forums for a few months while I'm able, so it's not so noticeable to me as it is to most of the regulars and developers who drop by here daily year 'round for one reason or another. Here's a few thoughts of my own that somebody might find helpful about this subject.
1. Sometimes no news is good news!
As mentioned before these lulls happen between model releases and can be a general indication of the "maturity level" of the most popular Roms. Unless prompted by new hardware, or by the discovery of a way to significantly improve performance or useability the devs tend to work on integrating new peripherals and cleaning up old problems in their latest release.
Ironically what realllllly irks me is the opposite: When new hardware comes out and every ROM distribution and it's brother shifts gears to supporting the new hardware and starts firing ROM releases and hotfixes etc. out for all of us to cry over. You know what I'm talking about I'm sure... where it looks BEAUTIFUL but has over two dozen "small" but completely mind numbing glitches that make it unuseable for all but the top 3% elite of us (me NOT included - I'm in the other 97%!) Then you see a million quick how-to's that may fix the problem if you just understood the post/Linux/programming/etc. ad nauseum a little bit better than you ever will. =(
So again, at least for the most common platforms we currently have stable and useful Roms, (Usually in multiple flavors.)
2. Support the devs and the newbies!
I can't say enough about this and how important it is. We have tried again and again and again to come up with a business or volunteer based model that would produce enough income to financially support even a SINGLE person/developer so that we could get a TRULY end user friendly complete product. Until something changes it just isn't gonna happen I'm afraid. So for the developers to keep working on these things and moving things along the three best things you can do to help them is to:
Send them MEANINGFUL thank-you's and kudo's for thier hard work! Take the time to do it right and be sincere...think how much time they've spent on YOU.
Send them CASH if you use their product or even if you don't but can see that their work is pushing the future of the Zaurii forward!
Send them FEEDBACK on their work. HELP them! If you find a bug take the TIME NEEDED to document it RIGHT and submit it WHERE THEY CAN FIND IT via bugtracker or whatever system that developer prefers! For those of you who program if you write a little bit of code or a script that makes things easier for you, send it along with documentation to the Dev of the Rom you're using! You could save him a MASSIVE amount of time by fixing something he won't have to! It's good to also post it where other users can use it but the Devs just don't have time to read a thousand posts to find a truly useable workaround or new nugget of an idea- send it directly to him!
2b. A GREAT way to increase posts is to adopt a newbie. I've done it often, and it's really rewarding and fun. As a matter of fact a few of you "old hands" were some of those very same newbies I adopted once upon a time. Ironic how quickly our roles switched and those newbies now school me regularly! Find some poor blubbering completely lost newbie poster and introduce yourself, answer his question and patiently explain the way we do things here and how to correctly use the site. It won't take long till he won't need you to hold his hand anymore and he can continue on his own...but those first baby steps after buying your first Z are fraught with confusion and doubt!
If each of us were to do this even every other month or so our ACTIVE membership would shoot through the roof. But all too often I have to grimace through posts that whine and complain about newbies asking dumb questions and people mocking those who are new and naive. I realize some of us crawled from the womb with encylopedic knowledge about the Linux in general and the Zaurus and every ROM ever released, but most of us came out simply looking for our next meal and pooping our diapers, so be PATIENT with us! I'll NEVER forget how overwhelmed I was when I first logged in to this forum and found out that I could actually change the OS/ROM in my SL-5500! It took me TWO WEEKS to figure out how to reflash it and a MONTH to figure out that the ROM was so new nothing but the basic apps worked yet!
3. This forum is first and foremost a repository of knowledge.
There's been some good comments about sweeping garbage posts and outdated information away and I believe that is wise.... but let's NEVER forget that EVERY piece of info on this site was current to a particular ROM release at one time and there are MANY quiet users who don't post but still use those old ROM's and are satisfied with them who still rely on that information. So PLEASE don't delete it entirely, but rather keep it as out-dated documentation somewhere easy for non-cutting edge users to find.
4. When you make a post take the time to enter as much relevant information as possible so future generations of users will have that info and can put it in context of time/date, ROM release, Hardware platform etc. because EVENTUALLY your exciting new post will be the very "old trash" that drags us down and confuses everyone. If you qualify and document your situation in your post it will ALWAYS be relevant to someone in the future that may stumble into your very footsteps!
5. Be happy!
Keep the posts upbeat and kind as much as possible. Mosts posts get made in a moment of utter frustration and are therefore laced with negativity. Likewise be gentle when responding to someone who is already obviously frustrated. A few sarcastic or ridiculing words spent because the previous poster overlooked the obvious (we ALL have at some time or another) can push ppl from frustrated to embittered.
NOBODY wants to spend time on a set of forums where everyone is always negative and bitter or where the browser is afraid of posting for fear of ridicule!
So really- if we want more posts and more progress we should keep the encouragement of the Devs up, adopt some newbies, be careful and conscientous in our posts and try to keep a positive attitude. I know it sounds all Boy-scoutish and stuff but it's true.
By the way....when's the next Z due to be released? =)
WOOOooooHOOOOOo! My first megapost since at LEAST last summer! I never could make a "brief" post... maybe one day. (Don't hold your breath though.)
Nice to see you all again folks, I won't be on much probably until mid-January but it's good to see you all again anyway!
Happy Holidays
-NeuroShock
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nice to see you neuroshock. Been a while....
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Because of health issues I'm away for looong periods of time ...[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148934\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
- Glad to see you, and hope things are better...
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actually, it's been 8 months since we heard from N.E.Uroshock, so I hope he's ok, not been kidnapped by the dark forces of Redmond and forced to play solitaire on pocketPC's till he begged for mercy.
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Yeesh! I should check my older threads more often, I'm still around...more or less. I busted my bad leg again, and again I'm on medical leave from work. I must have a "bad luck" storm cloud hanging around me, lol.
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I heard from him a few weeks ago about some zaurus stuff