OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ethereal on March 06, 2004, 02:26:32 am
-
Since my largely positive experience with the Z was part of what convinced me to once again flirt with Linux on the desktop, I\'d like to hear the thoughts of those here:
Fed up with Win95, I toyed with Linux several years ago, and liked it quite a bit. Ultimately, though, I needed a tool, not a science project, and M$ got its act together and put out Win 2K, which I could run for more than an hour without crashing or rebooting.
But, in the last week, I\'ve ventured into Torvalds country again. I\'ve tried Debian, which grilled me for two hours of installation with questions that presumed I knew more about my laptop than a proctologist knows about his patients, then dropped me into a shell with a broken X configuration. Then came Mandrake...this is different from Windoze...how? The jury is still out on Fedora, currently my \"flavour of the minute,\" but I\'m beginning to suspect that it is going to disappoint and I just won\'t admit it to myself yet. It has that awful, half-baked feeling about it: \"This vital function produced an error, so it was aborted,\" without any hint as to what the error--or remedy--might actually be. PPP is pretty badly broken, too.
So, I ask the *nix-heads here, should I:
1.) Persevere--Rome wasn\'t built in a day;
2.) Try a different disto--feel free to offer your favourites (unless it\'s Slack); or
3.) Screw it--the Z syncs with Windoze boxes just fine, anyway!
-
I would start off with mandrake on an old pc with compatible parts
for newbies like myself, i found it to be a bit hard.
9600xt graphics card is not supported on my main pc but it does run just fine on my radeon 8500 on my old pc.
i recommend this.
first off, you need operating system....i chose linux mandrake. wait for 10 to be available for download.
secondly, go through there supported hardware page and check to see what you want to have linux run on.
so i have soundblaster live, radeon 8500 all in wonder, amd 450mhz on a via mobo. all i need now is a hardisk with pci so i can have larger than 60 due to mobo bios not detecting it and a 56k modem.
on my main pc, scanner isnt working but printer does...epson 820photo. as a matter of fact, thats all i need on my main pc. scanner and video card compatibility. half a terabyte of disk space and all....mandrake beta 10 works fine out of the box.
so do what i said and youll be fine.............just to get you started.
then go for softwares that ill make you happy.
Cresho
-
I tried RedHat 5.1 way back in the day, and I tend to try it out every couple years but you described it exactly the way I would: It feels broken. I\'m not knocking it. I realize that it can be a great distro, its easy to setup. After RedHat I tried Debian and I\'ve been hooked. Debian is a pain to configure but once you do \"it just works\" tm. Forever. Configuring X is possibly its biggest weak point. I suggest you grab a testing iso of debian from here
( http://gluck.debian.org/cdimage/testing/da...386-netinst.iso (http://gluck.debian.org/cdimage/testing/daily/i386/current/sarge-i386-netinst.iso) ) if you get fed up with fedora. The installer is slightly less ... hostile then it used to be. Then upgrade to the unstable branch, so you\'re not stuck in the stoneage in terms of software versions. You will probably need to end up writing your own XF86Config file. Consider it a rite of passage. It is a pain to set up but once it is running, there is no need to reinstall. It doesn\'t randomly break when upgrading and there is no dependency hell like redhat or mandrake. Invest the time to get to know debian. I\'m sure a gentoo guy will show up in a second and say that Gentoo is the best distro. Gentoo is good also. I just like Debian better.
-ChanSecodina
-
Well if you don\'t want the faff-on you\'ve had already, I advise SuSE 9.0.
I have used SuSE as my ONLY desktop OS since Win2K came out and kept redetecting my hardware every single time I booted the damn thing, and now I **REALLY** don\'t run windows, the dual boot thing wasn\'t how a wanted to use a computer.
The way you have to look at it, is if you want to go the Linux route, you have to leave the PC world behind (sounds a tad trite but stay with me), it\'s like buying a Mac, you have to buy hardware and peripherals with Linux in mind, not \'any ol\' crap off the shelf for windows pcs\'. So many Linux newbies get disheartened when they can\'t get X or Y to work. (Although I tend to avoid USB, usually, like the black death, coz I can NEVER get it to work the way I\'d like, and I don\'t like WiFi/Bluetooth, there\'s enough radiation cooking my brain already)
With the right hardware choices you can get Linux to work smoothly, SuSE (IMHO) is the best, I\'ve worked with R&D labs in Germany and the engineers worshipped it, as do I now. I don\'t know where in the world you are, but I get every new version from eBay for less than 5 pounds. I\'ve used 7.1, 8.0, 8.1 and now 9.0, it\'s great and I have a TV card, my Zaurus, a CF reader and broadband router all working great.
A posting above mine mentions scanner and video card, again correct purchasing choices avoids this, same if you want a digital camera etc. you have to think it through. I purposefully bought a camera with a compact flash card in it to plug into my card reader to transfer images.
VMware is a good software choice for Linux, it lets you run your Windows stuff if you want, but in the way it **should** be run, inside a virtual machine where it can\'t do any damage. But it costs (unless you hunt... bla bla)..
As for all this X config, stuff, why bother? SuSE\'s installer is SO easy and setting up the graphics card stuff it a matter of clicking icons.
I notice a couple of respondants are suggesting \"unstable\" this or \"latest\" that, DO not bother, for the love of Shai-Hulud, don\'t go that way, get a distro you like and get it to work, and leave it until the next version comes out, THEN decide IF you think it\'s worth upgrading. Constantly updating and modifying will leave you feeling knackered, your computer WILL be a science project and not a tool for getting work done or playing, imagine if you had to reinstall, you\'d spend a week just adding all the modifications back, no no no, I ran SuSE 7.1 for 18 months and ONLY updated because I like the new colour scheme. (LOL!)
Hope this insane rant helps ;-)
Rebel against everything
-
my first linux distro was Mandrake. suse is good too. I didn\'t particularly like the feel of it, but that\'s me. Both were easy to install without alot of questions. once i got my feet wet, I tried gentoo (http://www.gentoo.org). I haven\'t been back since. if your not familiar with it, gentoo is a source based distro. it downloads and compiles every app that is installed. They use a tool called emerge (think ipkg on a zaurus) that looks in the portage tree (think Packages in a zaurus feed) and determines dependancies and installs them too. Great tool. the support forums are VERY active and a great source of info.
hope that helps.
-
Go Mandrake! If you are \'rich & famous\' invest in VMWare and experiment all you want with various linux flavors without the fear of losing anything!
-
I tried most of the distro\'s, and ended up installing various flavours of KNOPPIX or KANOTIX on my pcs, they work well as livecds but great on a hard disk install also. I gave up on most other distros since....
-
I think this question is much like asking weather VI or Emacs is better.
That being said, I use debian and am very happy with it. As stated above, once set up, upgrades are nearly painless.
I second the give suse a try, I tested that on my laptop once and it found everything but my sound card, which only works with commercial drivers anyhow.
Also, the suggestion of running it on a 2nd box is good, easy to experiment and not have to worry about breaking anything.
-
I think this question is much like asking weather VI or Emacs is better...
Neither... pico is the only way to go!
-
I think too often, people look for different distros to make up for the fact that they are not comfortable configuring the system or using the command line. I would suggest that newbies to linux learn the following basic things before they write linux off:
- vi (knowing how to edit your configuration files is key. If you don\'t know how to edit these files from the command line and you can\'t get your gui running, your dead in the water)
- cd (change a directory)
- cp (copy a file)
- mv (move or remane a file)
- rm (remove a file)
- ls -l (long list of files and directories)
- ln -s (symlink a file, it\'s sorta like a shortcut, but much better)
- cat filename | more (list the contents of a file)
- CTL-c (kill an executing command)
- su (change to root user -gives full administrative access if you are not root and know the root password)
You may also want/need to learn some of these:
- grep
- ps
- kill
- chmod
- chown
Linux in 24hr is a good book, but any intro to Linux or Unix book should cover these topics. If you are really interested, you can also check your community college for an intro to Unix course. You will also want another computer handy with Internet access when you are installing linux so you can research your problems if you cannot get your system working out of the gate.
If you are trying to install it on a laptop and don\'t want to put time in getting the install right, I would tend to say bag it now. Laptops are genrally difficult to install Linux on, unless you know it is specifically supported by the distro you are using.
I still like slack (sorry, I don\'t understand what the big deal is about typing a few commands that are handed to you unless you know nothing about the command line), Fedora, and Yellow Dog (for MAC hardware).
OS 10 is another option if you want to play with Unix and still have something you could easily transition from Windows to be comfortable with for your day to day work. I have a G4 I got off of e-bay and set it up dualboot OS 10 and Yellow Dog Linux.
-
I think this question is much like asking weather VI or Emacs is better...
Neither... pico is the only way to go!
Well I guess that just proves my point Bottom line, there is no \'right\' distribution. Keep trying them until you find one that feels like home.
BTW: I used to use pico ages ago, but stopped when it \'broke\' a long line in a firewall rule set I was writing. I promptly learned vi.
-
I think too often, people look for different distros to make up for the fact that they are not comfortable configuring the system or using the command line. I would suggest that newbies to linux learn the following basic things before they write linux off:
crap, wasn\'t logged in. that was me, sorry
soycap
-
<...snip...>
- cat filename | more (list the contents of a file)
<...snip...>
extra typing for nothing, you can just use your favorite pager direct on a file.
- more filename
or
- less filename
that being said, I find less to be more...
-
I think this question is much like asking weather VI or Emacs is better...
Neither... pico is the only way to go!
Well I guess that just proves my point Bottom line, there is no \'right\' distribution. Keep trying them until you find one that feels like home.
BTW: I used to use pico ages ago, but stopped when it \'broke\' a long line in a firewall rule set I was writing. I promptly learned vi.
I agree with you... and that was my intention, to help you prove your point.
-
I guess Linux users could be divided into two general groups.
The first group are the Linux tinkerers and hobbyists. Those that enjoy learning as much about Linux as possible. They are happy to fiddle with arcane configurations, try out different distributions, and generally get a buzz out of running on the bleeding edge.
The second group would be those that see the OS as no more than a tool, a reliable easy to configure tool, that is an adjunct to your main task. and not an end in itself. They want an OS that is straight forward to install, and just works.
If you are in the first group, there are a huge number of distributions to download and play with. Downoad Gentoo, if you want the latest and greatest tailored to your hardware. But expect to spend a few days compiling and configuring before you have something workable.
If you fit somewhere between the two groups, install Debian, you will land up with a fine system after a bit of tinkering.
If you see yourself in the second group, you just want to pop in a CD,
wait a few minutes for the installation to run, and have a usable system, there are really only two alternatives; Mandrake or Suse.
I have installed both a number of time on a few different laptops, all were IBM Thinkpads of various vintages. Both distributions installed flawlessly.
I have eventually settled on Suse, currently running V8.2, and I can heartily recommend it. Mandrake worked just as well, but I found it a bit too cutesy for my taste, and I think it looks a bit amateurish.
Suse has only one disadvantage, you have to purchase it, but the manuals that come with it are well worth the price, and you may actually save some money by not having to purchase 3rd party books. There is a free installation over ftp, that is more of a pain than it is worth, or you can download the evaluation version that runs off a CD but does not install.
Which ever distribution you choose, install it on decent hardware, the modern GUI interfaces are just as resource intensive as that other OS from Redmond. Gone are the days of \"throwing it on the old PC in the corner\", this only applies if you want a command line only install.
Have a look at http://www.linuxiso.org/ (http://www.linuxiso.org/) if you want a long list of the available distributions.
Good luck, once you have Linux up and running, you will never look back.
Regards,
Clive
-
Thanks for the suggestions, and keep \'em coming...Linux distro CD\'s are cheap.
To clarify what I\'m hoping--maybe unreasonably--to find is a desktop experience somewhat akin to my Zaurus experience: the Zaurus worked, without tinkering, from the first time I hit the power button. All the \"basics\" just worked. With a little learning, experience, and a desire to \"push the envelope,\" the internals could be made progressively more transparent and accessible--or not!
I\'m not uncomfortable with doing things from a command prompt. In fact, the more I fight hopelessly with various broken GUI tools in Fedora, the more enthusiastic I am about just \"doing it the old-fashioned way.\"
However, what I\'m not just uncomfortable with, but both philosophically and practically unwilling to tolerate, is a system that is a perpetual \"work in progress.\" I\'m sure we all remember that one kid in high school whose entire life revolved around his car: tweaking it, installing new and better intake, carb, exhaust--all in the name of \"higher performance\"--and then pulling and rebuilding the engine when \"more performance\" blew the crankshaft out onto the pavement. We might have occasionally envied him (on days when his \"baby\" was purring just right), but I think very few of us would have really wanted to be that guy--I didn\'t. I needed a car that started each and every time I turned the key, without fiddling and tinkering--even if it wasn\'t the fastest thing on the road.
That\'s what I\'m looking for--if it\'s out there: a \"daily driver\" machine that handles the basics, and a bit of esoterica, mostly in the area of wireless connectivity. I\'m all for endless flexibility and configurability as an option down the road, but not as an up-front requirement.
BTW, has anyone tried something called (not making this up) \"Evil Entity Linux?\" In self-description, at least, it sounds promising: targeted at out-of-the-box functionality...
-
Evil Entity, what a name
http://distrowatch.org/table.php?distribut...tion=evilentity (http://distrowatch.org/table.php?distribution=evilentity)
Interesting goals, haven\'t heard of it before today.
-
extra typing for nothing, you can just use your favorite pager direct on a file.
- more filename
or
- less filename
that being said, I find less to be more...
I was trying to keep things simple, if someone not familiar with linux looks at this thread now they are going to get all confused:
\"no man, I heard you shouldn\'t use cat. It\'s bad, I heard less and more are better\"
cat is a basic command users should be aware of don\'t you think? It also helps as a basic example of piping... crap now I\'m making thing more complicated as well.
-
To clarify what I\'m hoping--maybe unreasonably--to find is a desktop experience somewhat akin to my Zaurus experience: the Zaurus worked, without tinkering, from the first time I hit the power button. All the \"basics\" just worked. With a little learning, experience, and a desire to \"push the envelope,\" the internals could be made progressively more transparent and accessible--or not!
At the risk of sounding repititious, if that\'s your goal, then Suse or Mandrake are the main contenders. Pop in the CD to run the installation, answer a few questions, and you will be up and running in no time.
Clive
-
However, what I\'m not just uncomfortable with, but both philosophically and practically unwilling to tolerate, is a system that is a perpetual \"work in progress.\" I\'m sure we all remember that one kid in high school whose entire life revolved around his car: tweaking it, installing new and better intake, carb, exhaust--all in the name of \"higher performance\"--and then pulling and rebuilding the engine when \"more performance\" blew the crankshaft out onto the pavement. We might have occasionally envied him (on days when his \"baby\" was purring just right), but I think very few of us would have really wanted to be that guy--I didn\'t. I needed a car that started each and every time I turned the key, without fiddling and tinkering--even if it wasn\'t the fastest thing on the road.
I totally agree, but with so much development going on at the same time, distros start to feel really old, really fast. At the end of the day there would need to be one (maybe 2) accepted standard distribution(s) that everyone ran and were released only every 3 years or so. I don\'t see that happening unless someone like Dell offered a single distro preinstalled on their computers - less the MS tax. They can\'t afford to do this though, because phone support would kill their profits.
-
My project at work for a bank in the financial district of manhattan is to investigate linux as a possible alternative desktop.
The main question is, though, what is your goal? To save money? to be windows compat? to be windows data compat?
At home I run freebsd. Why? -- it\'s unix. I get source via ports, etc. It works and works well, no RPM hell -- EVER.
Is that the best solution for the bank and for everyone? no, probably. not.
Freebsd doesn\'t cover as much hardware as other linuxes (it still doesn\'t support recording on my laptop from \'99...
5.2-CURRENT stopped supporting my pcmcia adaptect 1460 scsi!) ... does it run legato or veritas backups? how
about oracle certification? etc.
At work, 6 months ago, I installed redhat 9.x, ximian desktop 2, crossover plugin and office. Is that good enough --
YUP. does it work, yup. does it have issues, well, yes... others are looking at macos -- whatever... it\'s based on
open darwin (bsdish? freebsd descendant? who knows).
Now? novell purchased suse. novel purchaed ximian. redhat jettisoned redhat desktop (now called fedora)...
does that mean fedora isn\'t a choice -- not at all... will IBM provide support for it? probably. Does this
matter to a home user? probably not.
For a home user, sight unseen, I\'d recommend Suse desktop (I\'m going 100% suse at work this week). Why?
because it is the \"other white meat\" -- has support, runs major apps (legato/oracle) ... *and* now seems
to be poised with desktop (ximian2 guts soon?) ... suse/novell backend (evolution and exchange server replacements).
Seems suse is the only full suite choice now.
It may not be the only, best or best choice for you -- but I\'d certainly give it a shot.
Me, I\'m sticking with freebsd on my laptop -- and I\'ll probably put suse 9.x on my new desktop that I purchase for home.
Scott
-
I\'d second that, that was why I suggested SuSE.
-
<...snip...>
- cat filename | more (list the contents of a file)
<...snip...>
extra typing for nothing, you can just use your favorite pager direct on a file.
- more filename
or
- less filename
that being said, I find less to be more...
I strongly dislike the useless use of cat award.
cat file | more has a purpose.
cat file | more
cat file | awk
cat file | filter | filter
you can edit that faster than
more file
awk \'{adsfasdfasdfa sdfasdfasdf}\' < file
awk \'{asdfasdf }\' < file | sed \'asdfasdf\" | blah > file
change that last line with something before the awk.. and you have to forward and back
if you were
cat file | awk \'{asdfasdfasdf}\' | sed \'asdfasdfas\' | blah > file
you could change to
cat file | filter | awk \'{asdfasdfasdf}\' | sed \'asdfasdfasdf\' | blah | blah 2 > file
quickly... dare I say, quicker.
I Think newbies get blasted far more with < and >, let alone >> >& 2>&1 |& etc...
Scott
-
Go with slackware. My first linux install was redhat 6.1, hated it. My seconed was Mandrake, ran that for about 6 mouths. After that I found to many bugs. And want to slackware. Hvent looked back. Slackware is not as user frindley as redhat or mandrake but I have found it more stable. It boots up into console unless you tell it not to. It works grite as a desktop or a hacking box. My sl-5500 OZ rom and TKC rom both sync grite. Qtopiadesktop works better than I thought it would. And I tell you its so nice to be able to work on my Z form my linux desktop. Hope this helps.
JP
-
I am also a slackware user. I went through a stage of trying out several linux distros, and somehow found that slackware was for me. Slackware does not hide anything behind gui\'s, so after the initial learning curve, at least you know whats going on in your system. I feel it is a lean and mean distribution. Other distros install way too much stuff than I need. I know you can select only packages you need, but with slackware, I dont have to select, I just install everything, and I dont feel it is bloated. This and the fact that it doesnt run a lot of services by default, and the packages included are taken pretty much straight from the original source unmodified is what makes it more stable and faster than other distros.
from your original post, I know you dont want to hear about slackware, but I thought other people reading this thread might :-)
-
A long time ago I used SCO UNIX for several years, and knew a little, but I haven\'t touched any UNIX/LINUX for the past 15 years. It\'s been a microsoft world for me. OS\'s are a tool that let me use the applications I need for work. (construction management)
2 weeks ago I got a used Zaurus and I want to try programming for it. Get my feet wet again in Linux. The whole experience points to the critical fact stated above that YOU NEED TO HAVE some command line skill to solve problems.
Equipment: Old sony F450 laptop , 6 GB hard drive, with no battery and a dead screen, connected to an old VGA monitor. I pulled this out of the closet, found some memory on sale and upgraded the 64K to 256MB RAM.
This would be a second computer that would be connected to my cable router. Main machine reamins WinXP also connected to router AND ZAURUS.
Distro: I bought at a local book store Fedora for Dummies book with DVD of Full Fedora Core.
It recognized all my hardware, including USB ethernet adapter, and in 3 hours I was browsing the internet. In 1 more hour I had SAMBA running and the Linux Harddrive is accessible to WinXP machine.
I had a lot of problems with learning curve for the Zaurus/Qtopia SDk stiff, but it is all running fine now.
2 weeks. No crashes, the network shares are always working.
But still, It is easier for me to still do my testing of software on the WinXP box and then thansfer it to the Linux box for testing with the crosscompiler.
jdf
-
I would suggest trying Knoppix. It runs as a live CD and there you can see if it recognizes your hardware. I run Mandrake on the desktop but I have never seen any distribution that is so easy to install and does a great job of auto config. I run it on hardware that just will not work without tons of tinkering. Also Wine is already installed on knoppix and it is fun to see Microsoft stuff run on a linux box. Also knoppix is built on Debian. Try it. It really does give you a feel for how far Linux has come.
two month z owner
-
from your original post, I know you dont want to hear about slackware, but I thought other people reading this thread might :-)
It wasn\'t really an opposition to Slack in particular, but more to the \"Slack paradigm,\" which, after perusing the Gentoo site, might be even more appropriately assigned to that distro.
I\'m happy for those of you who have the combination of raw intelligence, training, and experience (and free time :wink: ) that allows intimate familiarity with every package, file, symlink, daemon, byte, transistor, and electron--really, I am, and a little envious--but I don\'t. Although I\'d like to get there one day, and perhaps will, I can\'t take a six-month sabbatical right now to get my computer working.
In fairness to M$, Win XP Pro does an acceptable job running my main desktop PC at home, but it\'s like a generally well-running car with the hood welded shut. When little wierd things happen, I just have to accept them, \"let the engine cool off for an hour and try starting it again.\" When big wierd things happen, drastic measures are often required, like restoring the entire hard drive with Acronis Image Backup.
In Linux, I\'d hoping for the opportunity to see, tune, and repair the underlying mechanism, but I\'m not quite prepared to build it from parts.
Suse, Evil Entity, and Lycoris are on order. While I\'m waiting, I\'m going to take another swing at Debian. :?
-
I am another newbie, getting to Linux slowly. Introduced by my 2 yr use of my Z and OpenOffice.org, but with my Win98 laptop.
I first tried a Redhat 7.2 knock-off, but too many of my devices were never recognized, or could be configured.
However, Knoppix 3.2 surprised me and found it configured everything! I may try to either install this eventually or go for suse (from all the good reviews.)
Another top-rated live cd distro is Slax, a brief form of Slackware. Runs from a 200meg 8cm cd! Not as program full, or as device friendly as Knoppix (it couldn\'t set up my pccard modem), but it is real fast. In fact, it boots as fast from cd as my win98 on my laptop!
-
IMO, the thing about Slackware is that it\'s the perfect distro if your goal is to learn Linux. It\'s basic, it\'s reliable and an \"Everything\" install will get you up and running easily with no Gentoo-like building from pieces. Everything is configurable with the text editor of your choice using info obtained via a Google search.
I use Mandrake on my laptop and on my primary desktop because it has more eye-candy, but Slackware is what made me comfortable running Linux in general. I recommend it.
-
While I\'m waiting, I\'m going to take another swing at Debian
You must have the patience of a saint.
I\'ve used Slackware for years. Ive tried distributions from Behive to Yggdrasil.
Even though I\'v done it many times, I cant stomach a Debian install. It\'s too convoluted and time consuming.
Slackware is easy.
-
Then came Mandrake...this is different from Windoze...how?
By having something solid behind the eye candy ;-)
Since you mentioned that you\'re installing on a laptop, I recommend visiting http://www.linux-laptop.net/ (http://www.linux-laptop.net/), because laptops often have proprietary hardware that can cause headaches.
Mandrake may be a little too RAM-hungry to run confortably on your system. I\'ve used Vector on a couple of older PCs that weren\'t really up to running a full KDE desktop, and found it relatively quick and easy to install.
I have Mandrake 8.0 installed on what used to be my \"main\" PC, and put 9.2 on the Shuttle \"breadbox\" I\'m using in the trailer. But I had some issues with its built-in nVidia controller, and wound up with Redhat, because it didn\'t make the mistake of trying to use the nVidia features that weren\'t properly supported by the GPLed drivers. And now I understand why Redhat kept saying \"Linux isn\'t ready for the desktop\": if my only experience had been with their lameware, I\'d probably say the same thing. :x
Eventually, I\'ll be forced to switch (probably to Debian, because they seem to be the most \"careful\" packagers, and don\'t cut off all support for old versions mere months after they\'re released), because Redhat\'s GUI package manager is severely broken, and it\'s royal pain doing all the dependency finding and fixing by hand.
I strongly disagree with the suggestion that you wait for Mandrake 10 and download it: much better to go with a version that\'s been out for a few months, because most of the unpleasant surprises have been found.
There are some Debian derivatives out there that are easier to install (Vector might even be one of them, but I think it\'s built on slackware). If you anticipate using Linux for the long haul, that\'s likely to be your best bet.
Ran
-
A long time ago I used SCO UNIX for several years, and knew a little, but I haven\'t touched any UNIX/LINUX for the past 15 years. It\'s been a microsoft world for me. OS\'s are a tool that let me use the applications I need for work. (construction management)
It recognized all my hardware, including USB ethernet adapter, and in 3 hours I was browsing the internet. In 1 more hour I had SAMBA running and the Linux Harddrive is accessible to WinXP machine.
I had a lot of problems with learning curve for the Zaurus/Qtopia SDk stiff, but it is all running fine now.
2 weeks. No crashes, the network shares are always working.
But still, It is easier for me to still do my testing of software on the WinXP box and then thansfer it to the Linux box for testing with the crosscompiler.
jdf
still, you are a success story... you took iniative, you read, learned.. and did.
was it perfect, probably not.. but you now can speak from experience, instead of just
passing FUD or second hand info -- as so many other people do.
the bottom line is, as you said... you (meaning everyone) need to run what works for you.
I think it\'s amazing just how far along linux has made it.. I assume fedora is the latest redhat, and winxp is the latest win... try running winxp on the box where you installed fedora? the point is, you actually have not only a choice -- but something that actually works. The issue of productivity and just how WELL it works -- is another discussion.
-
While I\'m waiting, I\'m going to take another swing at Debian
You must have the patience of a saint.
Now there\'s something of which I\'m rarely accused!
Actually, I\'m \"at large\" for the next couple of months (rotating at a hospital about 100 miles from where I live, based in temporary accomodations), so I\'m as patient as my free time in the evenings is abundant.
However, I\'m happy to report that I\'m posting this from my laptop, freshly installed with Debian!
startx works! (Actually, the GUI login starts by itself!)
wvdial, uhh, well, needs some polish, but I\'m posting this via PPP! (Status post a little route fixing...)
Life is good (for now...)
-
-
Congratulations, Ethereal! I was going to toss in another recommendation for SuSE (with which I\'ve had outstanding results in the way of other total-non-tech people to use as a Windows replacement), but it looks like that\'s not needed.
If you can get Debian up and running on your own, there\'s nothing that any other distro can do for you that Debian can\'t (with the possible exceptions of the fully compiled-on-the-spot distros).
That said, KDE, Mozilla, Konqueror, OpenOffice.org, gaim, KimDaBa, KOrganizer, kvim, GIMP, Kmail, XMMS (or the Gnome equivilents of the KDE-specific tools I\'ve mentioned.).... and away you go!
Enjoy your new found freedom and stability!
havoc
http://snmlug.realizationengine.com/ (http://snmlug.realizationengine.com/)
-
I think too often, people look for different distros to make up for the fact that they are not comfortable configuring the system or using the command line. I would suggest that newbies to linux learn the following basic things before they write linux off:
- vi (knowing how to edit your configuration files is key. If you don\'t know how to edit these files from the command line and you can\'t get your gui running, your dead in the water)
Uhh...I\'ve been using Linux since Slackware 3.3, and actually started back in 1997-98. I didn\'t touch vi then and I don\'t touch vi now. Unless you\'re programming or heavily coding in any number of languages, vi is waaayyyy overkill. To be proficient in a given distro, vi is NOT an essential tool...not for admining a box. Coding, yeah, admining, no. There are tons of lightweight editors out there that aren\'t as cumbersome as vi.
I\'ve been helping admin #slackware on irc.freenode.net for a few years and we see vi vs. emacs vs. other editors and it always boils down to what you need an editor for. For admin and scripting purposes, vi is overkill...akin to using a sledgehammer to kill ants. End the end, on #slackware, at least, I tell the user to test vi against any other editor and make the decision for himself which is better. I never hand-feed noobs when they ask questions like that...I tell them to try it and make their owns observations and use what they like.
BTW, Slackware is a good distro to try, if you\'re looking for something light and tight.
-
wigglit, dood, I have a bud who REFUSES to learn vi (actually, vim). He still hacks massive DOS batch files (in DOS edit) line-by-line, and it takes him all day. I keep telling him, \"Jerry, regular expressions are your friend!\" He keeps ignoring me. Oh, well.
The thing about sledgehammers is, once your proficient with them, you can REALLY kill ants in a hurry with them!
:-D
Slackware and Debian are both excellent distros. The fact that I don\'t use them does not diminish their quality in my view. In fact, they are probably what I would consider the quintessential Linux distros. I hold them both in the highest regard.
-
Being involved with Linux since 1996, I have to admit that I have tried almost all of the distros; started with Slackware, used RedHat for my ISP, played with Mandrake, SUSE and Debian (and distros based on Debian) for my desktop.
I currently use Gentoo, but it is not for the weak. Some people play with it since you can pretty much have a system with the latest-and-greatest, but few keep it because portage can break your system faster then it took to set it up. Honestly, it is the only distribution I have had on my system for over a year because I use Linux not as my primary OS, but my only OS. Again, this is for the advance users because if you decide to tinker with Gentoo, you will only have a stable system for a short period of time. ebuilds (the files used to tell the system how to download and compile the sources) are maintained by anyone and everyone and many broken ebuilds make it into the main branches. It is a bitch to setup properly and making sure it stays running is something for the more advanced users, but you get one heck-of-a tailored system and setup exactly the way you want it. Since you are upgrading only small sections at a time, it is the easiest for updating.
Before Gentoo I was a Debian user. Debian is the most stable OS I have ever used and there are many spin-offs that have nice installers and updated components. apt/dpkg is probably the single best toolset for dependancy tracking ever imagined. I was never able to upgrade my system fully without issues though. Once Woody was released, I ended up having to reinstall.
SUSE/RedHat/Mandrake/RPM Based distros - are great for fast installs and hardware detection. SUSE is the best of these. The problem is that upgrading is also a beast and dependency tracking is a joke (I know all about the latest tools Madrake has and they DO NOT compare to apt). I used to use partition tricks in order to make sure the I could do new installs without needing to reconfigure everything. I made /home, /usr/local, /root and /opt mountable partitions so I would be able to install clean the latest versions and only have to play for a day or two to get my system back in shape.
Slackware is a great distro. It is the most \"UNIX standard\" of the Linux distributions. It is powerful and probably the cleanest distribution ever. Heck, it was the first distribution ever. It is not without its faults as well and still contains upgrading flaws. It is also not for the new users as many things still need to be customized manually (not nearly as manually as Gentoo). Many people swear by Slackware, but I feel it falls behind Debian and Gentoo. Just personal preference.
*****************************
Once you select the right distribution, you will start to play with your system. At first it is a toy. You will be presented with a pretty GUI and lots of windows. You may never really realize the power that is in front of you. Screw vi (it is my favorite, but I lived in HP_UP and Solaris for too many years), the power of Linux is the choices you have. You don\'t like KDE? Try Gnome. Not liking Gnome? Try Afterstep and use a screensaver as your background! XFCE4, Fluxbox, twm, etc... there are so many more. Need an office suite? Siag, Open Office, Koffice, etc... So, don\'t want to learn vi? Use one of the other hundred editors!
Like a command prompt? Need to work on a ton of things? Toss them into a while loop, if statement, etc.... You have this ability on the command line. Bash is a very powerful shell and it is backward compatible with korn, c shell and born (so it understands my crap). Need to lowercase a ton of files? ls | while read file; do mv $file `echo $file | tr [A-Z] [a-z]` done (probably incorrect but I have had a bit too much to drink tonight). The power of the command line is endless and since you are no longer using a command interpreter, any file is a command! If you need to pass a result from one tool to the next, use a pipe (|) symbol. i.e...
Let\'s break down this command:
ls -l | grep Mar | grep -v log | awk -F\" \" \'{print $3,\" \",$9}\'
ls -l: Gives a directory listing of everything in a directory in detailed columns separated by spaces:
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 691255 Mar 16 13:39 klimt.log
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 9058832 Mar 11 15:41 mamed37b15sdc.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 32244591 Mar 17 12:18 nx-X11-1.3.1-12.tar.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 7307712 Mar 2 21:22 open-wonka-snapshot.tgz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 1163183 Mar 2 19:50 orp-1.0.10.tgz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 806776 Mar 2 23:44 pilot-link-0.11.8.tar.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 10689 Mar 4 08:34 pocketkaffe.diff.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 5115148 Mar 14 11:31 se007e6.tar.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 137546 Mar 17 10:28 source.tar.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 1273544 Apr 18 14:58 src-v0.07.rar
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 62578 Apr 18 10:44 strace_4.4.98-1_arm.ipk
We send this output to grep which will return only the lines with the characters Mar in them.
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 691255 Mar 16 13:39 klimt.log
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 9058832 Mar 11 15:41 mamed37b15sdc.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 32244591 Mar 17 12:18 nx-X11-1.3.1-12.tar.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 7307712 Mar 2 21:22 open-wonka-snapshot.tgz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 1163183 Mar 2 19:50 orp-1.0.10.tgz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 806776 Mar 2 23:44 pilot-link-0.11.8.tar.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 10689 Mar 4 08:34 pocketkaffe.diff.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 5115148 Mar 14 11:31 se007e6.tar.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 137546 Mar 17 10:28 source.tar.gz
We then send that output to grep again telling it to remove lines with the characters log in them.
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 9058832 Mar 11 15:41 mamed37b15sdc.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 32244591 Mar 17 12:18 nx-X11-1.3.1-12.tar.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 7307712 Mar 2 21:22 open-wonka-snapshot.tgz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 1163183 Mar 2 19:50 orp-1.0.10.tgz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 806776 Mar 2 23:44 pilot-link-0.11.8.tar.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 10689 Mar 4 08:34 pocketkaffe.diff.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 5115148 Mar 14 11:31 se007e6.tar.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 davonz users 137546 Mar 17 10:28 source.tar.gz
After, we send the output to awk which uses space as a field separator (I used a -F to set this to space even though awk defaults to space) and prints out only fields 3 and 9 separated by a space.
davonz mamed37b15sdc.zip
davonz nx-X11-1.3.1-12.tar.gz
davonz open-wonka-snapshot.tgz
davonz orp-1.0.10.tgz
davonz pilot-link-0.11.8.tar.gz
davonz pocketkaffe.diff.gz
davonz se007e6.tar.gz
davonz source.tar.gz
You may think, \"big woop\"... but with a single command line you were able to pull the just information you were looking for out of a few lines. What if there 5000 lines, but you only wanted to pinpoint a few of them? You can do that easily.
Ok. I am rambling... I am heading back to my drink. ;-)
LD
-
It\'s been suggested to me and other linux would-be\'s many times that for a first venture, we should try Knoppix, which is \'live\' and runs entirely from the cd, so it never touches the fragile Windows hard drive. Knoppix can also be installed to the hard drive once you\'ve gotten the hang.
I bought Moving to Linux by Marcel Gagne for the reason that it wallks a Win person though Knoppix and even provides a Knoppix disc to work with. Book + disk = ~$20.