OESF Portables Forum
Model Specific Forums => Sharp Zaurus => Zaurus - pdaXrom => Topic started by: InSearchOf on March 27, 2007, 06:13:54 pm
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Just announcement to let the community know that pdaXrom and it developers are of no sort affiliated, associated or under an agreement with Hermocom. Our group has NEVER intended to make a profit off of the efforts of our work and do not plan on it. If there are any questions regarding this statement please contact myself via PM.
Thanks
Adrian Crutchfield (InSearchOf)
Representing pdaXrom
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I must admit that I am a bit offended by this and am glad to hear that there is no intent of charging for pdaXrom.
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Just announcement to let the community know that pdaXrom and it developers are of no sort affiliated, associated or under an agreement with Hermocom. Our group has NEVER intended to make a profit off of the efforts of our work and do not plan on it. If there are any questions regarding this statement please contact myself at:
******@****.***
Thanks
Adrian Crutchfield (InSearchOf)
Representing pdaXrom
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157329\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
So what's the deal here? Hermocom based its commercial distribution off the ongoing work that you and all the other pdaXrom developers are doing?
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If you look at the icons, especially the one in the lower-left corner, I think you'll get your answer.
http://www.hermocom.com/en/services/weexpc...creenshots.html (http://www.hermocom.com/en/services/weexpc/screenshots/Web-Site/weeXpc%20Screenshots.html)
EDIT: They admit to it here:
http://www.hermocom.com/en/services/weexpc/manual/#1 (http://www.hermocom.com/en/services/weexpc/manual/#1)
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From the website:
The weeXpc is an ultra-mobile productivity platform for businesses or private persons who need not only to organize themselves but also to work productively at any place and any time.
Especially as a former user of Hewlett Packard 200LX palmtops, you may like the weeXpc!
Special offer:
only 180 Euro if you order before April 6th 2007! (price is software only)
Read on to learn more!.
Am I reading this correctly? They're charging 180 Euros just for the OS & software?
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From the website:
The weeXpc is an ultra-mobile productivity platform for businesses or private persons who need not only to organize themselves but also to work productively at any place and any time.
Especially as a former user of Hewlett Packard 200LX palmtops, you may like the weeXpc!
Special offer:
only 180 Euro if you order before April 6th 2007! (price is software only)
Read on to learn more!.
Am I reading this correctly? They're charging 180 Euros just for the OS & software?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157339\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
That's correct so far as I can tell.
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I wasn't aware you could sell open-source software unless I'm misunderstanding what they are doing.
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I wonder if they use the same cr*p on the SD card that Picsel browser has, so you cannot make a backup?
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I wasn't aware you could sell open-source software unless I'm misunderstanding what they are doing.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157345\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
If pdaXrom is licensed under the GPL, I am fairly sure that they are violating it.
EDIT: It seems (after looking at the GPL) that you CAN charge for the software (or derivatives of it), but you must have the source code available licensed under the GPL.
I took ~30 seconds to skim the license, so I may be off, but that's what I gather.
@Jon_J: I'd guess that they'll prevent you from making a backup of your card.
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ok... I just edited this so if anyone got the opportunity to see me venting your fortunate...
But I feel as an admin I need to keep it civil so I will just say... all of the above speculations are correct... and we are working at getting this issue resolved in a timely fashion... to those who have purchased this software from this company, I'm sorry for your misfortune in not knowing this this software is free to the general public.
To the owner and regular forum post poster (yes he is amongst us) if you have any input or questions regarding our concerns about your practice, may contact my via email at the address posted above.
If you feel as if posting here is a better route please do so.
Late
(that post earlier looks naked with out Late at the end)
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Edit: and I didnt think to convert 180 Euros to USD until now and it is $239
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157349\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
And I thought Windows was expensive!
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Edit: and I didnt think to convert 180 Euros to USD until now and it is $239
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157349\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
And I thought Windows was expensive!
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157351\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
You caught a piece of my vent before I could edit it :-)
Late
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First of all, I really appreciate the effort you guys put into pdaXrom - both the core developers and the people who contribute to this forum.
However if the pdaXrom stuff is wholly GPL then:
I think all that he did was... grab the beta3 images installed it... hacked the crap out of it... installed A LOT of apps and re labeled it... created a NAND backup and sells it... I've seen adverts on a few blogs... EBAY AUCTIONS!.. and as you know this page for the company...
One could argue that this is by and large what Redhat (and friends) do. They take GPL stuff, polish it, package it up, put together some documentation, maybe throw in some support and sell[1] the result. Of course Redhat (and friends) does development and bug fixes as well and contributes them back upstream.
My whole "fit" is because not even 1 person from pdaXrom was asked or even notified was was going on... I mean I'm not going to allow a product of my and the rest of the teams effort be sold...
I don't think GPL stipulates that upstream needs to be notified of any intention to (re)distribute. However I agree that it would have been courteous to have notified the pdaXrom developers about such intentions.
and yes he is conflicting with GPL
Could you clarify which part of the GPL you believe is being violated?
[1]In practical terms they're actually selling support. There are a number of entities who take the Redhat stuff, strip out all Redhat trademarks/logos etc, then rebrand & repackage for (re)distribution. This is all perfectly legal and within the scope of the GPL. However users of these (re)distributions are obviously not qualified to receive Redhat support!
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Am I wrong in thinking that if you use GPL'd code in something you release, the thing you release must also be GPL'd?
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So I guess desertrat caught my rant also... :-)
Well I'm not going to break out into the GPL this and GPL that since I wanted to stay civil and not point fingers... (the reason I retracted my prior statements)
But I'm going to leave this alone for a bit. Any any conversations regarding this can still trickle on and if anyone would like to contact me please feel free to do so...
Thanks
PS. And my reference to GPL wasnt refering to the statements I made prior that... My GPL statement was agreeing with Antikx
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PS. And my reference to GPL wasnt refering to the statements I made prior that... My GPL statement was agreeing with Antikx
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157357\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
And I guess to clarify... I didn't see the mention of them selling support and I didn't see the source code available for download, so that's why I drew my conclusion. Also, I should have said GPL instead of Open Source.
I have no qualms with what Red Hat does and I think the Zaurus could use some more exposure, but as I said I didn't see this company doing what Red Hat does. (correct me if I'm wrong).
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They (hermocom) sold OS image, but they DO NOT provide any source code to download.
And as they said, their OS is based on pdaXrom.
http://www.hermocom.com/en/download/zaurus/ (http://www.hermocom.com/en/download/zaurus/) (At the bottom of the page)
We are currently developing exclusively for pdaXrom.
So, I think they violated the GPL license which pdaXrom used.
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And I guess to clarify... I didn't see the mention of them selling support and I didn't see the source code available for download, so that's why I drew my conclusion. Also, I should have said GPL instead of Open Source.
I have no qualms with what Red Hat does and I think the Zaurus could use some more exposure, but as I said I didn't see this company doing what Red Hat does. (correct me if I'm wrong).
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157359\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I don't see any mention of support either, but the source code for the GPL software is supposed to be included on the recovery DVD, which I guess can be used to recovery the SD card, so I don't think backups are needed.
180 pounds (sorry don't know keycode) (222 coming soon) does seem like an exorbitant amount for just makeing a "distribution" of free software.
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A legal question: is he still violating GPL if nobody ever bought the product, instead he's just making a joke of himself? In other words, does it need to be a final sale to constitute a legally binding situation?
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So I guess desertrat caught my rant also... :-)
Well I'm not going to break out into the GPL this and GPL that since I wanted to stay civil and not point fingers... (the reason I retracted my prior statements)
But I'm going to leave this alone for a bit. Any any conversations regarding this can still trickle on and if anyone would like to contact me please feel free to do so...
Thanks
PS. And my reference to GPL wasnt refering to the statements I made prior that... My GPL statement was agreeing with Antikx
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157357\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I have from time to time also ranted as I am sure many of us have. In this case it is understandable and makes me feel like ranting also. I have said before that pdaxrom has been so useful to me that I would gladly pay for it. In a way I have, by donating to the cause and will continue to do so. Hopefully the person responsible for this comes to their senses and donates any money made, back to where it rightfully belongs. For me open software is not about being free, as such, it is the idea of community and for that I gladly contribute.
cycle_55
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They (hermocom) sold OS image, but they DO NOT provide any source code to download.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
He does include source code, though.
What will be delivered?
* We send you a readily configured SHARP Zaurus with weeXpc software installed
* The weeXpc SD card for data storage and with preinstalled Windows portable weeXpc applications
* A USB adapter to connect the weeXpc SD card directly to a PC
* A recovery DVD, which also includes the source code of the GPL-licensed open source software.
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I wonder if they use the same cr*p on the SD card that Picsel browser has, so you cannot make a backup?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I wasn't planning on buying this, I was more interested in the SD protection, since my SD card cannot be purchased anywhere now.
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I have from time to time also ranted as I am sure many of us have. In this case it is understandable and makes me feel like ranting also. I have said before that pdaxrom has been so useful to me that I would gladly pay for it. In a way I have, by donating to the cause and will continue to do so. Hopefully the person responsible for this comes to their senses and donates any money made, back to where it rightfully belongs. For me open software is not about being free, as such, it is the idea of community and for that I gladly contribute.
cycle_55
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157364\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Well-said cycle_55. My take is that I don't see much legal problem with hermocom. It's left for the buyer to judge whether the support is worth the price or not. And it's left for the seller to justify wether his act makes moral sense. But Daniel Hertrich should at least show some courtesy to pdaXrom developers or even contribute back in the good nature of open source.
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They (hermocom) sold OS image, but they DO NOT provide any source code to download.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
He does include source code, though.
What will be delivered?
* We send you a readily configured SHARP Zaurus with weeXpc software installed
* The weeXpc SD card for data storage and with preinstalled Windows portable weeXpc applications
* A USB adapter to connect the weeXpc SD card directly to a PC
* A recovery DVD, which also includes the source code of the GPL-licensed open source software.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
ok, I retract what i said.
I have from time to time also ranted as I am sure many of us have. In this case it is understandable and makes me feel like ranting also. I have said before that pdaxrom has been so useful to me that I would gladly pay for it. In a way I have, by donating to the cause and will continue to do so. Hopefully the person responsible for this comes to their senses and donates any money made, back to where it rightfully belongs. For me open software is not about being free, as such, it is the idea of community and for that I gladly contribute.
cycle_55
I agree with you cycle_55, well-said!
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well, I think I will need to say a few thinks to hermocom's defence.
The company is selling a service which is installing a bug fixed version of pdaXrom in a user friendly way. This does not constitute a violation of the GPL. Furthermore, all the GPLed source code is available on the DVD and you can also get the source code by simply contacting the owner of the site. There are quite a few packages that the owner of hermocom has contributed to pdaXrom so he does contribute back. Samples are the customisable clock applet, the streamtuner and streamripper packages and some more.
As for donating to pdaXrom, the website states that 22EURO will be donated to the developers (which I assume is pdaXrom developers) for each weeXpc service sold.
I have been offered some donations as well since some of the fixes in pdaXii13 also ended up in weeXpc, but I had declined since I generally don't take monetary donations. In this case, I opted to get a Zaurus mug since I like the idea of drinking coffee from a mug with a Zaurus logo on it. This has happened before I had joined the pdaXrom dev team and was just hacking my own version of pdaXrom for C3000.
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Hello Adrian, hello forum members,
here are some background and answers to your questions:
hermocom does not violate the GPL. hermocom actually supports the GPL's deeper sense by supporting the developers. Source code is delivered to anyone buying the system.
To Adrian: if you feel that anything has to be clarified between both of us, we should do so immediately (maybe via PM - please feel free to contact me at any time). What I really do not want is to have any disagreements about your great work on pdaXrom and the ways of usage of that work.
weeXpc was born from the ideas I had to make pdaXrom fit my own needs. I realized that a lot of people have similar needs (especially those who are used to use the good old MS-DOS-based HP 200LX palmtop). So, besides making pdaXrom fit my own needs, I spent a lot of time making it more failsafe, providing routines for all kinds of tasks to make usage as simple and intuitive as possible, to make the system as user-friendly as possible.
weeXpc is meant to make pdaXrom available to professionals who may not have the time, interest and/or skills to tweak the system themselves.
pdaXrom simply needs a lot of tweaking after a plain install, in order to get a system which is suitable for daily work. And many people who need a work horse are people who won't tweak pdaXrom for the above reasons.
So I have done that work in advance for these people, with the help of some other people here, besides the pdaXrom team mostly Meanie probably, and with the help of some application developers who are not participating here in the forums.
Hence I return a lot of results from the work on weeXpc to the community - as Meanie says - that is, software packages, ideas to improve the functionality of pdaXrom etc. Many discussions I raised about missing features or suboptimal behavior of the system actually resulted in something very valuable, available for every forum member.
This is the natural, community-based way of improving software like this, and I have no problem sharing all the ideas included in weeXpc with you (you may have guessed I have such problems, because it could lower the "profit", but weeXpc is not meant for you knowledgable people here, but rather for the groups of people I mentioned above).
As for profit: Of course I, representing hermocom, must be profitable. Hence I have to charge a fee for the offer.
Market (i.e. offer and demand) determines the price, I also need to consider the amount of work I spent and still spend for this project etc.etc.
Honestly: If I would add up all the time spent so far, and substract the time spent for only the functionaly I need myself (so only considering the amount of time which I spent solely for making the system "sellable"), I would still have to charge much, much more than I do to reach the level of profit which would be needed if this was my main business. weeXpc is a spare time business of mine.
Here is where demand comes into the game. Demand is not that high, because it is a niche market. All Zaurus vendors know what I am speaking about.
It would need a very clever marketing system and much higher prices to gain a profit which can supply a living.
BTW: The price includes a lot more stuff than the software, e.g. installation service, advice in how to efficiently use the system for the individual needs, last but not least advice if weeXpc actually is the right system for the individual needs etc etc. All the pre-work which every user has to do on his own otherwise, and which takes a significant amount of time. I think it makes much sense to bundle that all and offer it to anyone.
The main idea of weeXpc was to create something which is an adequate replacement for the HP 200LX palmtop. The QTopia-based systems were not able to fulfill that, pdaXrom was the best choice for that goal. Most people who are interested in or buy weeXpc are indeed former HP 200LX users and are amazed by the system. However, many people are not willing to donate on a voluntary basis, so I think it is a good way of returning something to the original developers by using a part of the price for donations.
Now you may ask "why didn't I get any donation yet?". There are quite some developers involved, and I gave a larger donation to another developer in advance (Notecase, also a project which all pdaXrom users can have an advantage of, because Notecase is now heavily optimized for Zaurus usage and much improved for all platforms it is available for). Once I have sold the amount of weeXpc systems needed to cover this, pdaXrom project will be the next "target" for donations.
Adrian, if you like to have a control for this, please contact me privately and we will find a way.
It is clear to me that once commerce is introduced into an otherwise completely free and community-based project, people may smell a rat due to potential moral problems and license violations. For these reasons, but in the first place for reasons of common sense and human ways of thinking, I decided for that donation scheme.
Adrian, your work, and the work of the other pdaXrom developers, is very much appreciated and certainly should never be abused. If you feel that weeXpc is a form of abuse, please let me know! The idea was not to abuse it, but to make it available to a broader range of people and, in turn, give some special group of people a device with really powerful software.
I admit that I should have contacted you in advance to clarify things. I am very sorry for not having done it! I should have guessed that this may offend you, even more while not knowing any details and background.
Adrian, of course GPL allows you to use any enhancements I have done in pdaXrom. I actually hope that you will do so, making pdaXrom an even more robust and productive system. If you search my forum posts, you will find a lot of things which may or may not fit your idea of how pdaXrom should behave.
I hope I could clarify the questions so far.
If you have more questions, please ask publicly or via PM.
Best regards
Daniel Hertrich,
hermocom
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Thanks for being level headed and taking the time to clarify things Daniel.
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Yes Daniel all your points are valid. Lets just enjoy that somebody is actually trying to improve the pdaXrom in both software and money effort. So it ends here and we might review later but at the moment there is all go from all the pdaXrom developers for your contiuned development and sales.
Btw. to everybody - its a long time since anybody donated anything
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Yes Daniel all your points are valid. Lets just enjoy that somebody is actually trying to improve the pdaXrom in both software and money effort. So it ends here and we might review later but at the moment there is all go from all the pdaXrom developers for your contiuned development and sales.
Btw. to everybody - its a long time since anybody donated anything
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157409\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Hello Laze,
I am very glad you put it this way. I am not aware if you already read my email I wrote as a reply to your email (which I just found half an hour ago in my spam folder, so could not reply earlier).
But if weeXpc is sold some more times (and I think it will be) there will be pdaXrom donations in the near future.
daniel
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All,
Alright I'm going to leave this thread open for the next few hours... after that I'm going to lock it since there are no more comments needed regarding this subject.
If anyone has a reason for this to continue to be open let me know.
Late
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Yes Daniel all your points are valid. Lets just enjoy that somebody is actually trying to improve the pdaXrom in both software and money effort. So it ends here and we might review later but at the moment there is all go from all the pdaXrom developers for your contiuned development and sales.
Btw. to everybody - its a long time since anybody donated anything
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157409\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I don't mean to be a pain here or anything but my records show that I sent 100 canadian dollars on Jan 5 this year. It took a few weeks to be claimed as I recall.
cycle_55
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Sorry - you are right... I stand corrected You being the only one...
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Sorry - you are right... I stand corrected You being the only one...
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
It is not a problem and I hated to mention it . Keep up the excellent work.
cycle_55
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Sorry - you are right... I stand corrected You being the only one...
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Laze and all pdaXrom team,
How do I make a donation??? I've asked before on other threads and cannot find a link on the pdaXrom page ( or at least it's not in front of me ).
Thanks
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is a good point create a mini how to donate to project, how i can do this ?
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is a good point create a mini how to donate to project, how i can do this ?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157437\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
The plan is to either create a general account... or to create seperate paypal accounts for each dev that is willing to accept donations...
Keep a look out on pdaxrom for donation links in the about us section.
Late
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I have used hermocom's shoutcast browser/player (on Cacko), and I have to say it's a nice product, and was made freely available.
It seems to me that DH's sin has been in not communicating well with the pdaXrom team.
Just a thought, but maybe he could directly sponsor pdaXrom by being allowed to put paid adverts on the pdaXrom site.
I suspect that there are quite a few wanna-be Z users who are scared of buying one because they think it'd be in Japanese.... Fig Labs do a similar job re-packaging the Sharp ROM and fully anglicising it and have contributed back. I would expect him to provide a good warranty and repair service for zaurus hardware too!
I hope that we can give DH/hermocom the benefit of the doubt, and think that anything that brings more people into the zaurus owner community is a good thing.
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I have used hermocom's shoutcast browser/player (on Cacko), and I have to say it's a nice product, and was made freely available.
well, it's not written by me, I have just modified it and repackaged it (I guess you speak about the python-based one?).
It has been written by a Japanese developer, and I converted some Japanese stuff in it to English or corrected some translation errors, as I recall, and added a recording function.
It seems to me that DH's sin has been in not communicating well with the pdaXrom team.
You are right.
Just a thought, but maybe he could directly sponsor pdaXrom by being allowed to put paid adverts on the pdaXrom site.
This is generally a nice idea. But since I cannot foresee how well weeXpc will be accepted and sell, I avoid everything which produces costs on a regular basis.
But advertisement on pdaXrom.org in conjunction with a higher donation on each weeXpc sale would be an option.
I suspect that there are quite a few wanna-be Z users who are scared of buying one because they think it'd be in Japanese.... Fig Labs do a similar job re-packaging the Sharp ROM and fully anglicising it and have contributed back. I would expect him to provide a good warranty and repair service for zaurus hardware too!
Of course the user has the normal warranty if he buys a new Zaurus with the software package.
daniel
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Just a thought, but maybe he could directly sponsor pdaXrom by being allowed to put paid adverts on the pdaXrom site.
This is generally a nice idea. But since I cannot foresee how well weeXpc will be accepted and sell, I avoid everything which produces costs on a regular basis.
But advertisement on pdaXrom.org in conjunction with a higher donation on each weeXpc sale would be an option.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157449\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
This would be a no go, due to the fact that ibiblio frowns upon paid adverts on sites that they host...
Late
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Hello Adrian, hello forum members,
here are some background and answers to your questions:
.
.
.
Best regards
Daniel Hertrich,
hermocom
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157393\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Excellent reply, Daniel. I think this really puts everything in perspective.
One fear that I had after I heard about the end of Zaurus production was that interest in further development would wane. If anything, your business should be beneficial to continued development, which also serves my own self-interest.
Good luck.
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Locking
Late