OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: walkman on October 05, 2007, 09:16:37 am
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Hi again,
as a newbie and yet somebody who recently fell for Sharp Zaurus devices (I still have this euphoria when I look at the device), I was of course looking at various OS distributions for my Z gadget. I think I got a slight clue what is this all about, yet I do not feel that embedded in the Z community's box of thinking (at least not yet) so I can afford a bit detached perspective. I came to some thoughts which I would like to share with this community and get feedback on (as there are also practical aspects of and questions stemming from what you will read below).
[size=]Introduction[/size]
I perceive Zaurus as a PDA in the first place. On the second, it is a full-featured handheld computer. I think it was also meant that way by Sharp, and designed with this goal in mind (small screen, tiny keyboard, turnable clamshell design). Sharp also designed their original OS for Z in this vein.
In the course of my explorations, I found numerous *nix-based distributions for this device and of course got immediately lost as many others as well. The I started to get a bigger picture and I found that there's a ZOO of ROMs around, a lively community trying to help each other and obviously a huge mess in available applications for Z (different distros, different kernels, libraries, GUIs, WMs, etc.). That's all nice. But a persisting question in the back of my brain is still: What are the aims of these distros? Where do they go? I am asking such questions, because I would like to use my Zaurus in the first place. It was built to be used, wasn't it? I am prepared to spend some time configuring it, but in the end it is a consumer device supposed for a casual use by power users.
[size=]Distributions[/size]
Let me now briefly make an overview of what do various Zaurus distributions/ROMs claim in their own descriptions:
[size=]pdaXrom (http://www.pdaxrom.org/)[/size]
... is a cross-platform Linux distribution with own build system. Its targets are PDA and embedded systems. pdaXrom uses X11 for GUI applications, hence greater versatility, improved portability and better performance.
OK. I see... So pdaXrom is focused on having ist own build system and integrated X11.
[size=]Angstrom (http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/)[/size]
Ångström was started by a small group of people who worked on the OpenEmbedded, OpenZaurus and OpenSimpad projects to unify their effort to make a stable and userfriendly distribution for embedded devices like handhelds,set top boxes and network-attached storage devices and more.
Nice. Angstrom want's to speak to me - an average user. I am still to see more of this system as it was not released yet as I can guess from their web-site.
Actually the website is nice and teasing. But I have some doubts about a product marketed by a statement "...was started by a small group of people...". Actually I have no clue about what it is. No screenshots, better description, simply close to zero, nada. Well except for the wiki (http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/Angstrom), where I can read a lot of technical stuff but can't find what this Angstrom is and when will I get it (if ever).
[size=]Cacko ROM (http://my-zaurus.narod.ru/cacko.html)[/size]
Cacko ROM is a localized English ROM based on Sharp Japanese ROM for Sharp Zaurus C7x0/C860/C1000/C3100/C3200 devices.
Clear, crisp and simple. Read: this is just localized and improved original image. And I know what that is quite well. Sharp told me.
[size=]OpenBSD (http://www.openbsd.org/zaurus.html)[/size]
OpenBSD/zaurus is an effort to make OpenBSD run on several PDAs of the Sharp Zaurus family.
Alright. So for a description what this is, I'd better go to OpenBSD (http://www.openbsd.org/) which says about itself the following:
The OpenBSD project produces a FREE, multi-platform 4.4BSD-based UNIX-like operating system.
I see now. So this is all about a UNIX system on the Zaurus device.
[size=]
Titchy Linux (http://wiki.neilandtheresa.co.uk/Titchy_Linux)[/size]
Titchy is a complete, fully-native Debian GNU/Linux distribution for the Sharp Zaurus...
Again, read: check Debian (http://www.debian.org/) for what this is. And there we go:
Debian is a free operating system (OS) for your computer.
So this is a free operating system for my Zaurus.
Finally let me mention this one
[size=]Poky Linux (http://www.pokylinux.org/)[/size]
Poky is an embedded Linux build system, distribution and developer environment.
Hmmm, so no real OS for my gadget... But let's not give up that soon. Let's give it a one more try on Opened Hand (http://www.o-hand.com/) who seem to be associated with it:
OpenedHand Limited creates, adapts and improves Unix and Linux based Open Source software for consumer facing mobile and embedded devices.
Ahaaa. So finally somebody who again cares about me, simple average user. I have still to check this system which looks very appealing (http://projects.o-hand.com/) to a PDA-experience seeking user.
[size=]Flesh[/size]
Now what I wanted to highlight by this is that except for Angstrom and Poky, which, judging by their websites, are still nowhere close to a end-user release, and Cacko ROM which goes in the direction sketched by Sharp, no(!) other distribution devotes itself to end-users! And even those which do, claim some abstract and unclear goals for their projects. At least it is not easily readable for me.
I would like to close my eyes and look 2-3 years into an ideal future where all the Z developers of this world have infinite amounts of time to spend on their hobbies. What I would like to see there is for each distribution a shiny picture showing its great features, its typical use-case and a well-specified group of happy users which share interests fully approached by the particular distribution.
But when I close my eyes now, with all my lame perception of this community, what I see is that I will be able to run driver allowing me to connect the keys of my Ferrari to my Zaurus and read all the data from it, I see that I will be able to run complete MacOS X in an emulator on my Zaurus and enjoy all its emulated beauties and eye candy. I see that Zaurus will allow me to connect directly to and remotely steer both my private jet and yacht and probably I would be able to use it as an advanced 3D scanner or as a smartphone. However the dialer application will be only command line. And if not all that, I am already able to run an Apache web-server with MySQL database underneath, on my Zaurus. That's certainly a practical combo, isn't it ...
It seems to me that even though this community makes some confused steps towards making "something" out of Zaurus, it actually has only a little clue what that "something" means and how to get to it. I see this forum, on one side full of developers making leaps with the technical evolution of a whatever Z system w.r.t. HW and connectivity, and on the other filled with confused and frustrated users. And because of a lack of information, I do not see an end to it. From a purely lame point of view, I would immediately fall for Poky, just because it seems to go in the right direction and seems to have the nicest screen-shots .
[size=]Conclusion[/size]
The screen of Zaurus is probably way too small to run Firefox, or KOrganizer (anyway, I will give it a try). The keyboard is useful and handy, but the main input devices remain the touch screen and the stylus. Porting yet another application from the big desktop does not make a lot of sense. Actually except for HW compatibility (which seems to be achieved quite well in 2.4 already) and speed (there seem to be mixed reports about this) I see only a little sense in having a bleeding edge OS kernel + clumsy applications ported from desktop and designed for a 19" screen sporting 3+key-shortcuts.
So can you guys tell me where is this all stuff, with mainly pdaXrom in mind, lead? I understand Titchy and OpenBSD to be technical platforms without a big drive towards Z (except for the ability to be installed and run). Angstrom is not out yet, so it's early to judge and I myself did not try it yet (and there's a lack of info on their web-site/wiki). Poky and all the stuff around Open-hand seems to produce one day something REALLY USEFUL. Cacko seems to be inactive for now. Obviously Meanie did a huge effort to push pdaXrom towards an end-user. But as I see, pdaXii13/v2 is merely an off-shoot of pdaXrom than the main line of development, isn't that right?
What I see is that the original Sharp distro went in a right direction. But it is technologically obsolete and lacks modern applications ported from the desktop Linux environments and one can't see any big movements on that front. On the other side I see a bunch of technologically great projects with a plethora of ported apps many of which make a great sense on Zaurus, but which unfortunately miserably fail on the end-user level (see e.g. my post from yesterday (https://www.oesf.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=24826&hl=)). And maybe one, or two which seem to go in a right direction, but are nowhere close to a usable release, not speaking about all the applications needed for them.
It seems to me that this Zaurus community needs guys with a mindset of people like Mark Shuttleworth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Shuttleworth) to finally manage to get somewhere... And this O-Hand (http://projects.o-hand.com/) seems very promissing in this respect.
And now fry me!!! .
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So what is your point ?
Everything you say is well known by everyone who has been using the Zaurus for several years.
We all know that pdaXrom is still for hackers and that Sharp or Cacko ROMs are more suited for those people who want to just use PIM functionality.
I disagree that KOrganiser/KOPI is not usable at 640x480; I used it on my SL-5500 (320x240) for many years and it was very reasonable; I was happy with it.
Yes, it is true there is no broad agreement amongst Z developers to a unified goal. Can you expect people with vastly different visions to all sit down and agree where they disagree ?
Please, just enjoy the diversity that is the "Open Embedded" community and thank the hardware making gods that someone had the insight to make something as good as the Zaurus.
Edit: didn't mean to quote the whole original post.
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So what is your point ?
That there seems to be no point and no substance for existence under some distros. Unfortunately. As so much great effort goes in there. If the way I see it is correct as you suggest below.
Everything you say is well known by everyone who has been using the Zaurus for several years.
So I wonder, why the status-quo remains and anyway so much effort is invested towards not very meaningful directions.
I disagree that KOrganiser/KOPI is not usable at 640x480; I used it on my SL-5500 (320x240) for many years and it was very reasonable; I was happy with it.
That's nice to hear. . I hope I will be able to live with it as well.
Yes, it is true there is no broad agreement amongst Z developers to a unified goal. Can you expect people with vastly different visions to all sit down and agree where they disagree ?
Correct. But,
1) My post is exactly about those visions you mention. I do not see any. And I would like to find out about those. And this post is meant to be a teaser for you to tell me.
2) Given those visions exist. How can I not see all these efforts as a pure vaste of time if there's even an agreement, that no common ground can be set and no common vision can be followed? If that's so, to me it says loudly: "vaporware".
Please, just enjoy the diversity that is the "Open Embedded" community and thank the hardware making gods that someone had the insight to make something as good as the Zaurus.
I certainly will. I am still to find whether this is only an intelligent brick, or I can manage myself to make something out of it. But I like the effort .
Thanks for your reaction.
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A lot of people here see the Zaurus as a learning tool/toy. Still, they have produced some amazing things which can be useful for all of us. I would like to see some more practical development, but it won't happen, since the Zaurus is essentially a dead platform. I hope to keep using it for a little while longer, while looking for a suitable replacement and I'll be playing with it for a long, long time. I discussed a couple of practical issues important to me in this thread:
https://www.oesf.org/forum/index.php?showto...mp;#entry167356 (https://www.oesf.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=24683&st=0&p=167356&#entry167356)
and concluded it'd stay with the Sharp ROM.
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Walkman... thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts.
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That there seems to be no point and no substance for existence under some distros. Unfortunately. As so much great effort goes in there. If the way I see it is correct as you suggest below.
There really aren't that many distributions so I don't know what you are talking about.
pdaXrom is there because they were first.
Debian is a popular distro so it's no surprise that many people wanted to replicate that on a Z.
Angstrom is, well, you've seen the web site. It's the follow up to OpenEmbedded. They want to be cutting edge, and, stuff.
So I wonder, why the status-quo remains and anyway so much effort is invested towards not very meaningful directions.
I don't think that's true. There has been very rapid development, thanks to a handful of very talented developers.
For example, pdaXrom team in general, pdaXii13, KO/PI, etc.
Those developers have lives outside Zaurus and so can't do everything.
What "not very meaningful" directions are you talking about ?
1) My post is exactly about those visions you mention. I do not see any. And I would like to find out about those. And this post is meant to be a teaser for you to tell me.
That's perfectly fine but you're not adding anything to the whole. Are you expecting the pdaXrom team to come online to justify their philosophy to you ?
2) Given those visions exist. How can I not see all these efforts as a pure vaste of time if there's even an agreement, that no common ground can be set and no common vision can be followed? If that's so, to me it says loudly: "vaporware".
Vaporware is something that never existed. All of these visions exist in some physical form so you are wrong. I think you meant something else but your language is inaccurate.
Why do these efforts have to have a common vision ? Some users want to use PIM, others want a dev environment and some just want access to GIMP or LaTeX using their PDA. Trying to force everyone to use the same system wouldn't make sense.
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Let's keep this to the point as I would like to extract some information from you, if you allow me . I am not going to react to catchy points, because I think I addressed them in the original post.
I don't think that's true. There has been very rapid development, thanks to a handful of very talented developers.
That's very much what I found out as well. However radid development towards where? That's my point. As I said having all sorts of exotic goodies (driver to my ferrari, jet and yacht) is a lot of fun and makes sense if we say aloud that this is just a toy and nothing else. But I do have a feeling that this is meant to be "for real".
Those developers have lives outside Zaurus and so can't do everything.
To be clear: I very much aplaud and appreciate a work of every single open-source programmer in this world. I am trying to do bits and pieces here and there as well. I am not trying here to troll or offend somebody.
What "not very meaningful" directions are you talking about ?
No offence intended, rather I do personally not see a point in these: any flavour of Debian, OpenBSD. What do they add to user experience on Zaurus? They are fun to install and explore, cross-compile, or whatever. But that's it.
That's perfectly fine but you're not adding anything to the whole. Are you expecting the pdaXrom team to come online to justify their philosophy to you ?
Kind of. But not to me personally. They do not have to care about funny guys as I am. They should think about their mission statement and then put it in [size=]such letters[/size] to the front-page of their website.
Vaporware is something that never existed. All of these visions exist in some physical form so you are wrong. I think you meant something else but your language is inaccurate.
And here we are by the information I would like to extract from you, if you allow me. Can you please elaborate on mission statements of those you know about? Or are they just Linux distros with their own compile toolchain and X11 abilities.
And OK. If it makes you happier, you got me on vaporware . I meant a software which evaporates and goes down the drain after it eventually came to existence. I think the word fits anyway...
Why do these efforts have to have a common vision ? Some users want to use PIM, others want a dev environment and some just want access to GIMP or LaTeX using their PDA. Trying to force everyone to use the same system wouldn't make sense.
I am not trying here to say that ONE-4-ALL is a good way. Definitely not. I am even happy with the diversity there. What I am lacking is to see where each of those branches goes. Poky obviously goes for PDA experience. Let's say that OpenBSD and Debian go for whatever the standard desktop experience is (well, they have actually nothing too much to do as the experience is driven by applications available - so except for HW compatibility, there's nothing else). These are clear. So where is pdaXrom walking? pdaXii13 obviously is a step from whatever direction the mainstream follows towards user-friendliness. And because of lack of information I have no clue where is Angstrom walking either so I have to wait until it comes out.
Again. I am not trying to offend anybody here. I very much value the great efforts every member of this lively community put into development, testing and compiling and documentation and whatever else I forgot to mention now. I am only trying to point finger at some issues I spotted. If this community doesn't care it's fine with me. There are zillions of things I do not care about myself . I only would like to learn something about how you guys see your own work. The context, the direction and the drive you have. And that all in order to be able to sort out for myself which distro to go for so that I can enjoy a long and sustainable future with my Zaurus. See the real point behind starting this thread revealed in its naked shame .
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Well,
I'm not going to follow the ongoing "discussions". There are a lot of threads in this forum about this subject.
Just want to tell you this : I am using my Z in real life, and there are a lot of users doing so. It all depends on what you want to do with it, what you need with you, what you are doing in real life. I think that's the main reason different ROMs exist : people making something "they" want to use in real life. They publish their work and we can benefit of it.
The things I need are :
- a decent spreadsheet (gnumeric)
- a portable database (portabase)
- an sms-app (gnokii)
- a calendar app (Ko/pi - dates)
- an addressbook (Ka/Pi - contacts)
- a mail-client (sylpheed)
- a fast image viewer (feh)
- a word processor (abiword)
- wifi - bluetooth
- something to copy piccies from my camera
I found them all in pdaXrom together with a gui I like and a very configurable system I can play with, so I use that most of the time.
Every ROM has people liking it the most and people will find all the apps I need in another ROM. But I have to like something first before I really use it, so ... .
So, I'd say : figure out what you need, see what rom has it and play.
Oh, where are the roms leading to : to the needs of the developers.
Just my 2 cents.
Chero.
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[What about this discussion doesn't sound like a new linux user just realizing that linux doesn't tell you what to do?
I use both Z's the 6000 stays on a cradle on my nightstand for convenience; the 3100 travels
what do you want to do with yoyr z? figure that out; then find the software that does it...then worry about the OS
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I agree with Chero. The devices use's depend on your needs. I have a PDA Phone that does my basic PDA needs. As an IT though I find the portability of the Z and Flexibility of pdaxii13 rom very useful to my needs. Very few devices in my price range can do this and still fit in my pocket.
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@walkman,
You are not doing a very good job of identifying the issues you are trying to raise. If you have a proposal then make it. I'm sure people here would listen.
You say that there is "no point to Debian" and you are confused about the vision of the developers of the various ROMs: is there any Linux distribution that has a clear vision ? What about Fedora, Ubuntu or SUSE ? What is the difference between their core values ? I think this is the "Linux way". You take the distribution you like most and add packages and customise it.
You (obliquely) raise a good point: there is no news, no interviews or features about the Z and recent developments. I just come to the forums and check "view new posts". We used to have mickeyl's newsletter on OpenZaurus then OpenEmbedded. No one seems to be updating the ZUG page. I think we need a "news team" to go through the forums and highlight interesting points on the ZUG front page. Also, they could interview various developers to find out what they are doing. We need some people to volunteer their time though...
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@koan:
thanks for your response. Let me briefly react:
You are not doing a very good job of identifying the issues you are trying to raise. If you have a proposal then make it. I'm sure people here would listen.
That's correct. I will respond to this later.
You say that there is "no point to Debian" and you are confused about the vision of the developers of the various ROMs: is there any Linux distribution that has a clear vision ? What about Fedora, Ubuntu or SUSE ? What is the difference between their core values ? I think this is the "Linux way". You take the distribution you like most and add packages and customise it.
This was a very valid point. So let's check their websites:
[size=]Ubuntu[/size]
Ubuntu is a community developed, linux-based operating system that is perfect for laptops, desktops and servers. It contains all the applications you need - a web browser, presentation, document and spreadsheet software, instant messaging and much more. (http://www.ubuntu.com/)
and later:
With Ubuntu Desktop Edition you can surf the web, read email, create documents and spreadsheets, edit images and much more. Ubuntu has a fast and easy graphical installer right on the Desktop CD. On a typical computer the installation should take you less than 25 minutes. (http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/desktopedition)
[size=]Gentoo[/size]
We produce Gentoo Linux, a special flavor of Linux that can be automatically optimized and customized for just about any application or need. Extreme performance, configurability and a top-notch user and developer community are all hallmarks of the Gentoo experience. (http://www.gentoo.org/)
[size=]Fedora[/size]
Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in free and open source software. (http://fedoraproject.org/)
and later
Fedora delivers absolutely Free software which has a completely graphical installer, comes with easy to use desktop and administration tools. It is also efficient and strives to serve the needs of different kinds of users. (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#head-41f948fe69763d5e475d34da613ca80a851c2b38)
Conclusion:
I think the above quoted descriptions and mission statements try to clearly specify what they are about. What I personally like is what Gentoo says. That's perfectly clear and very well highlighted. Ubuntu is not that straightfoward as it could be. I guess it is because they started to grow recently and they have all sorts of these subprojects (Desktop, Server, Mobile, etc.) so on their front-page you only read about being free (which is nowadays not a very distinguishable feature).
But you are right to a certain extent. Also big Linux distros obviously often do not stand up to high expectations of an interested user trying to choose what to install on his computer.
You (obliquely) raise a good point: there is no news, no interviews or features about the Z and recent developments. I just come to the forums and check "view new posts". We used to have mickeyl's newsletter on OpenZaurus then OpenEmbedded. No one seems to be updating the ZUG page. I think we need a "news team" to go through the forums and highlight interesting points on the ZUG front page. Also, they could interview various developers to find out what they are doing. We need some people to volunteer their time though...
This would certainly help. And what would be really great, is to somewhere document why is the concrete distribution better than the others, how it differs from the others and what are the highlights of it. That's what this thread was supposed to be about. I do not mean a comparative document. But rather statement on the front-page of the distro web-site. Basically a teaser and highlight why anybody looking at the website should consider that piece of software usefu and worth consideringl.
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You (obliquely) raise a good point: there is no news, no interviews or features about the Z and recent developments. I just come to the forums and check "view new posts". We used to have mickeyl's newsletter on OpenZaurus then OpenEmbedded. No one seems to be updating the ZUG page. I think we need a "news team" to go through the forums and highlight interesting points on the ZUG front page. Also, they could interview various developers to find out what they are doing. We need some people to volunteer their time though...
I did an interview with InSearchOf and the LUGradio guys did an interview with Mickey.
For the last two years tyrannozaurus has tried to skim the news bits and post them, but I'm busy in the summer and now with a newborn, I have less time.
Most of us are trying to do our part to add to the community, but it's a small community, no one is getting paid to do this full time and many of us have busy personal lives. It's not an excuse for things not being better, it's just the reality of it. A team efforts would make a lot of sense, but it's hard to have a team function when it's spread out over the internet.
As my boss likes to tell me, if you see a problem, own the problem.
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Hello,
in the first place, let me thank to all those who bothered to respond in this thread. It gave me some inspirations and ideas. I will try to write about those later (possibly another reply in this thread). What I do expect from this thread now, is to boost my understanding of all the technology and software development around Linux-based handheld devices in general with special focus on Zaurus.
There was a very valid point raised by koan:
You are not doing a very good job of identifying the issues you are trying to raise. If you have a proposal then make it. I'm sure people here would listen.
Koan, you are right. In the following, I would like to approach your challenge with a more constructive bunch of thoughts. I basically started to think about what do I expect from my experience with a perfect handheld, also based on what I experienced with other distributions and what I know from my experience with other PDA systems. I tried to put together a hypothetical "manifest" of what could be something I would consider useful. I will try to proceed in an iterative manner from some fundamental principles to more and more technical details of some of those issues. Finally I will conclude with a brief feasibility analysis.
[size=]Handheld Personal Computer[/size]
Handheld Personal Computer (HPC) is a Linux-based GUI customization package for Sharp Zaurus devices. It blends PDA and ultra-mobile laptop user experiences into a single, consistent GUI.
[size=]Fundamental principles[/size]- HPC exploits features and respects constraints of the Sharp Zaurus platform with special focus on SL series.
- HPC is a power-user centric interface
- HPC is a durable and sustainable in the long term w.r.t. development for Zaurus platform
- HPC features a lightweight deployment
Here a power-user is somebody who can RTFM and STFW and is used to use Linux as a desktop box.
[size=]General characteristics[/size]
HPC should be a lightweight customization package + a set of carefuly chosen pre-installed and customized applications over a chosen X11 WM. It should be WM/desktop centered, i.e. deployable on any platform where the chosen WM/desktop can be deployed. It should feature mainly Z-specific key-bindings and various customizations of the window manager and desktop plus a optional customization of a small set of support application/tools improving the user-experience.
It should operate in 2 basic modes:In the laptop mode, Zaurus' main input device is the keyboard. This mode does not differ much from a usual desktop computer mode of operation, i.e. exploitation of various keyboard shortcuts stands in the front of user experience. User should use stylus to operate the Zaurus device as rarely as possible.
In the PDA mode, everything should be operable using the touch-screen and stylus. However as some applications are not built with PDA use in mind, it should make it possible to also operate such applications.
[size=]Getting more technical[/size]
In the following I will focus mainly on the PDA mode as I feel this is currently under-developed mode in distributions like pdaXrom.
[size=]GUI[/size]- space, space, space - all unneccessary stuff should be hidden, or removed. That means e.g. compact window decorations, hidable panels, and alike. However, anything hidden what might be useful should possible to open using either a stroke, or tap on some token (corner?, silk-screen?)
- make efficient use of the small screen. That means probably running all applications in a maximized windows. Except for dialogs of course. However, I do think a stabdard desktop-mode makes a lot of sense, therefore this should be run-time switchable by e.g. an applet in the panel
- in order to reach controls in oversized dialogs, some sort of scrolling the whole screen would make sense.
- integrated hand-writing recognition and an on-screen keyboard.
- list all active tasks+windows switching in some form should be easily accesible (collapsed list, or a Windows-taskbar like behaviour, or ...)
- make use of sillkscreen and mouse/stylus gestures
- way to access the bottom-most desktop should be quickly available
- desktop should feature PDA-like navigation in groups of applications/user-specified shortcuts/scripts and alike, of course with customizable icon. It would be nice to have a small tool supporting creation and categorization of such shortcuts on the desktop.
- GUI should support multiple desktops and an easy switching between them
- date and time should be displayed on an easily accessible place, e.g. in the panel, or directly on the desktop
- having applets integrated into the desktop would be an interesting feature (system monitor, time, etc.)
- HW monitor summary (battery, CPU, memory) should be easily accessible
How to get there:
From what I know, matchbox-wm and other matchbox-* applications are a good starting point. A lot of what I mentioned is already there, some things are not supported and have to be solved.
[size=]Connectivity[/size]
Obviously WLAN is a big issue on Zaurus. The experience has to be improved.- a working and highly-configurable tool for WiFi connectivity.
- a lightweight, but full-featured web-browser
- e-mail is probably a very user-specific issue...
Bluetooth and IrDA ommited. I do not know how important these issues are and whether it is worth trying to solve them in general.
How to get there:
Wifi-radar is a good basis. As the whole concept is power-user centric, a first shot might be a configuration dialog app for all the wpa-supplicant + DHCP + PCMCIA/cardctl options. It shouldn't be idiot-proof, but should work in a transparent manner, i.e. it can produce shell scripts for connecting/disconnecting specific networks and allow a user to customize/edit them and then control their launching/killing.
Possibly, the tool should feature community-provided default configurations, or templates for different cards and configs. For example Prism 2 based cards (the tool can even provide a list of those) with WPA/PSK authentication with a WEP key is a good candidate for such a template.
A good candidate for a browser would be something Gecko, or WebKit based browser with cookies and SSL. For example Galeon... And of course Links as an extremely-lightweight browser should be preinstalled.
[size=]Misc[/size]
Multimedia and other application areas are probably a matter of choice for each user. Possibly one could think about pre-installed media apps. But that's not that important for a basic user experience with the device.
I also can imagine that behaviour of the GUI significantly and automagically changes between PDA mode and laptop mode. For example maximizing the windows by default makes a lot of sense in the PDA mode, while it is less desirable in the laptop mode. And more such can be probably found.
[size=]Feasibility[/size]
I have a feeling that a lot can be achieved by style of work which Meanie is doing with pdaXii*. I mean probably re-packaging those features into an ipkg package with a bunch of install scripts so that the whole package can be installed from a feed over any future pdaXrom release. As I think the whole solution is just a customization of a desktop environment, it could be easily portable to other distributions as well.
I also have a feeling that OPIE/GPE approach a similar problem. However, it seems to me that they go a more heavyweight path, i.e. tighter integration with applications.
From what I wrote above, it seems to me that most of the stuff goes in direction of customizing key maps, preconfiguring applications etc. There are few problematic points:- Window manager - matchbox seems to be a good start. However AFAIK it does not allow switching the maximized and desktop modes.
- Desktop - matchbox-desktop might be a good start, but I am not sure about all the considerations which have to be done. And obviously majority of people seem to lean more to IceWM
- WiFi tool - has to be programmed. Not from scratch, but a significant piece of work has to be done.
Later EDIT:
It seems that Poky's Sato interface addresses some of the issues raised above. I did not study it, nor have I clue whether it is portable...
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Z's Distro's follow the same general method of development that the Desktop versions do.
QTopia & Cacko are aimed at maintaining the "PDA" nature of the Zaurus.
OpenZaurus aims at the people in the middle ground between being a PDA and a Mini-Laptop.
PdaXrom (PdaXii13) is aimed at making the Z as close to a micro laptop as possible.
Debian is a desktop OS, so porting it to the Z means the Z would be a micro Laptop running a standard main stream distribution of linux. From what I have seem this is hard to setup, as normal Debian can be.
How each maintaner of these distro's describes there OS's is entirely up to them, maybe they spend more time on the OS development and less on there info pages? Anyhows ...
When I got my Z last week, the first thing I did while waiting for it too arrive was google sl-1000 and linux. That landed me here and the rest was easy enough to sort out. So as a newbie myself I am not sure why things were so confusing?
I think its awesome that these people are around and have made such software available for those of us who don't just want a PDA. Thanks all of you who code and contribute
Btw - the reason there are so many flavors of Linux (including with the Z') is because groups of people get together and make the distributions that fits there needs, then other adopt and tweak it to there needs. Redhat (Fedora) fits more of a company view, Mandrake is tailored towards out of the box installs, Debian is a for the user who wants to hand setup every aspect of there linux box etc ...
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This was a very valid point. So let's check their websites:
...
Conclusion:
I think the above quoted descriptions and mission statements try to clearly specify what they are about. What I personally like is what Gentoo says. That's perfectly clear and very well highlighted. Ubuntu is not that straightfoward as it could be. I guess it is because they started to grow recently and they have all sorts of these subprojects (Desktop, Server, Mobile, etc.) so on their front-page you only read about being free (which is nowadays not a very distinguishable feature).
Quite frankly I couldn't care less what the "mission statement" of the various distros are. Most mission statements are just marketing garbage with no warranty attached, and are simply statements (not commitments).
Anyway, if it's only for your own personal satisfaction and you want to know which distro is most suitable for you then:
Sharp/Cacko - for mostly PDA functionality, and least need to fiddle around
pdaXrom - if you need maximum flexibility and a real desktop experience, some fiddling recommended
Angstrom - probably a cross between the above 2. I've never used it so can't really comment
All the others (*BSD, Gentoo, Debian etc) are probably not quite there yet - in terms of hardware support. So if you want to play safe stick to one of the 3 listed above.
If this topic was started for the benefit of the wider community, then yes, please go ahead and try all the various distros then write up a summary comparing and contrasting them all I'm sure a lot of people would be grateful for it.
Personally I picked pdaXrom because I was able to use standard X applications on it. If a particular app you need is not available in the standard distribution it is relatively easy to compile it yourself. I've long since stopped fiddling with my pdaXrom installation since it now does all I need of it.
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Quite frankly I couldn't care less what the "mission statement" of the various distros are. Most mission statements are just marketing garbage with no warranty attached, and are simply statements (not commitments).
You are partly right. Most often it is a PR garbage. But knowing where do the creators want to drag their baby (the principles they commit to) is worth knowing. For some long term clarity... This whole thread is not that about the present state of those distributions (which are excellent pieces of work in itself), but rather about extrapolating their future.
And a reasonable amount of PR garbage also helps to keep on the right track - i.e. towards creating a successful product, whatever that means to the creators. In an ideal state (enough resources in terms of developers' time) e.g. Debian and pdaXrom will eventually achieve a perfect HW support. At that point they will be kind of equal, right? I am not able to guess what will be the significant difference between them by then.
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Quite frankly I couldn't care less what the "mission statement" of the various distros are. Most mission statements are just marketing garbage with no warranty attached, and are simply statements (not commitments).
You are partly right. Most often it is a PR garbage. But knowing where do the creators want to drag their baby (the principles they commit to) is worth knowing. For some long term clarity... This whole thread is not that about the present state of those distributions (which are excellent pieces of work in itself), but rather about extrapolating their future.
And a reasonable amount of PR garbage also helps to keep on the right track - i.e. towards creating a successful product, whatever that means to the creators. In an ideal state (enough resources in terms of developers' time) e.g. Debian and pdaXrom will eventually achieve a perfect HW support. At that point they will be kind of equal, right? I am not able to guess what will be the significant difference between them by then.
I think pdaXrom is more aimed at optimization. Debian, if you mean Titchy, seems simply aimed at providing Debian. I use pdaXii13, for mostly the same reasons cited by desertrat--all my stuff works, and it mostly does what I want (there are things a Z simply doesn't do). After reading your posts it sounds like you might like the cacko/openbsd dual boot. Not quite the switch modes on the fly abilities you are looking for, but cacko is a solid pimmish system with good HW support, and openbsd is a full desktop 'nix.
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walkman, are you saying all this because you have the hope that people here will begin to work together to define the next MEGA Linux Palmtop OS ?
Perhaps you would like to see innovations on this platform or upcoming ones? Are you waiting for a well defined roadmap? Good ideas like in the iPhone or the last HTC devices?
There are none. Most people here just follow ideas from others.
A few people have bring what they wanted on the Zaurus (debian, BSD, Gentoo, X11/desktop, Qtopia, ...) and apparently they don't need more.
The others are waiting for the Messiah and will always complain about lack of time. They don't know how to invest themselves into what they would like to see next and most of them don't want to.
My own idea is so complicated and difficult to achieve that it's less frightening to put a gun on my head than trying to do it.
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A few people have bring what they wanted on the Zaurus (debian, BSD, Gentoo, X11/desktop, Qtopia, ...) and apparently they don't need more.
The others are waiting for the Messiah and will always complain about lack of time. They don't know how to invest themselves into what they would like to see next and most of them don't want to.
You are right. But as I wrote above, I already decided to start to work towards what I want myself. Simply for myself. Otherwise, the whole Zaurus idea is useles for me (why should I own a PDA-like device when I cannot use it as a PDA?). I simply will try to make what I want reality. When I will be finished, you will certainly hear about it. If I will fail, probably you won't . In short, what I want at the beginning, is to create a configuration/customization of pdaXrom in which:
1.- I can work as with a laptop - that is already done, mostly by Meanie, and works almost perfectly (thanks for that work!), and
2.- I can work as with PDA when I turn the display - this is missing and I will try to add it to Meanie's customization.
That means at the beginning something in the following direction:
1.- Desktop with navigation similar to what matchbox-desktop does, i.e. the whole menu on the desktop. That's very useful.
2.- Icons which can be pinned to the desktop
3.- configure WM so, that I do not have to move and resize windows. By now, this is not possible without use of keyboard if you the dialog is higher than the screen (ALT+stylus), i.e. in the PDA mode windows should start maximized and have as few decorations as possible,
4.- behaviour of the WM can possibly change on-the-fly on the event of screen turning.
After some short feasibility study in the last days, I found that it might make sense to try to start from openbox. Other WMs are either not that configurable (IceWM), or configurable, but not transparently enough (e.g. E17), or not themeable well and having very complicated config (fvwm). I have still in game openbox and fvwm. openbox has also this idea os pipe-menus which might be handy in the PDA mode somehow...
Over that a desktop with features 1 and 2 should live. I am not aware of such. So either I extend and configure matchbox-desktop to be able to handle standalone icons, or I was thinking about extending idesk to handle those flexible menus in a certain area of screen. I already took a look at idesk source code and I think I would be able to extend it in the way I want (in the end, it's a fairly small piece of code). An idea of pipe-icon-sets similar to pipe-menus in openbox is needed to do that. Shouldn't be very difficult to do - at least I can easily imagine solution for such a functionality.
Let's see what will come out of that... Maybe nothing, but we are far from giving up yet, right? Don't worry, I am not a guy who complains endlessly and doesn't move his own ass... Somebody said it very nicely in some other thread of this forum: "see a problem - own the problem".
LATER EDIT:
walkman, are you saying all this because you have the hope that people here will begin to work together to define the next MEGA Linux Palmtop OS ?
Perhaps you would like to see innovations on this platform or upcoming ones? Are you waiting for a well defined roadmap? Good ideas like in the iPhone or the last HTC devices?
No need for irony here. If you feel offended by what I wrote above (possibly you are a developer and feel to be put down by a dumb user?), I am apologizing for that. It wasn't meant to offend anybody (possibly arouse :-) ).
What I wanted to see was whether it pays off for me to invest time and energy into a distro which at least goes somewhere. Innovations are done by people. But only if they know the problem they are solving (that's a vision, or commitment, or call it as you like). Random ideas usually do not work very well... And solving a technical problem like e.g. how to compile X for Y, is much easier (although very much needed and extremely important) than finding out how to improve X so that it is just perfect for Y and then taking it to reality... I was only interested if there's such a feeling here around. Whether there's a need to improve the user-experience at all... I am not sure about that yet. I only know, I myself need it. Hence I have to help myself...
In the end, after some reading of past posts and threads of this forum, I started to believe that pdaXrom seems to have a brighter future than others. Because it seems to care specifically about this device. That seems to be a good promise... But that's just my personal feeling...
EVEN LATER EDIT:
So if you have any ideas how to improve user-experience on Z which might be connected to what I want (there's more than enough written about that in this thread), I am listening.
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I understand where you are going walkman.
Experts are leaders of the past. Visionaries are leaders of the future.
Ubuntu isn't successful because it has better developers. Same with Apple.
It's their vision.
We get in a rut of doing things a certain way. A vision helps us move through the ruts.
That being said I think each distro has it's own vision, it just seems that over the last year interest in the Zaurus has wained as there hasn't been a new model and many suspect it's the end of the Zaurus line. I think this has effected people's moral and vision. Many have the mindset of hunting for a "Zaurus replacement".
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Experts are leaders of the past. Visionaries are leaders of the future.
I can't agree more.
Walkman, I'm happy to see that you are trying to do something that match your expectation. Mainly because it's the only way to build something useful.
You asked for a few ideas. Here is a brain storming without a lot of thought:
- You can get easily the base of the system (kernel, initscripts, X11, ...). This is not an issue. OE or pdaXrom builder can do this for you easily.
- Desktop applications are not build for PDAs (touch screen, memory, storage, finger, speed, time loading...).
- The main graphic libraries are not PDA friendly (Qt, GTK). The others libraries have too much bugs on ARM or are too simples (FLTK, wxWindows, XForm, VCF, WDesktop...)
- Dev tools are too complicated to install and use (native build system, emulator, images, cross-compile, ...)
- Contributors can't contribute patches or applications easily. They need to know Linux, python, bash, ... and many other tools
- There is no Visionaries in the house and no big ideas to follow
So, with the VM you want and GTK or Qt you will have the PDA you expect.
Me? I want to rebuild a new powerful X11 library PDA friendly (a fusion of GTK, GDK, Libpng, ...). I want to rebuild most of the good desktop applications with it. Rebuild my own WM and main screen with my own PDA desktop. And why should it be just as bad as other Linux desktop? Why not as good, as fast and as easy to use as the iPhone ones?
Demo from Apple;
http://www.apple.com/iphone/gettingstarted/guidedtour.html (http://www.apple.com/iphone/gettingstarted/guidedtour.html)
Complet French review:
http://www.mobinaute.com/79924-test-apple-...phon-page1.html (http://www.mobinaute.com/79924-test-apple-iphone-smartphone-mp3-baladeur-telephon-page1.html)
Applications and software for the Zaurus are outdated and don't comply with today PDA expectations. I never felt comfortable using them. I don't want frustration any more and I don't use my Zaurus. And I won't switch to the iPhone because I don't want the Apple monopoly nor do I want to use anything as long as it is not free software inside.
Here where I am. Stuck with dreams.
Really, I'm frightened for www.openmoko.org .
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Just free your mind. Start innovating. Free your mind of what you already know and figth for what you want so much.
I have sleepless nights since 4 weeks because of this.
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I killed the thread with my comments? Ooops. Sorry. Really, this wasn't intentional.
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I'm curious, how applications become outdated. I for one still want to check email, look up things on the web and work on spreadsheets. I certainly don't want to do those things on a pda so for me the zaurus is as small as I want to get.
cycle_55
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I'm curious, how applications become outdated. I for one still want to check email, look up things on the web and work on spreadsheets. I certainly don't want to do those things on a pda so for me the zaurus is as small as I want to get.
cycle_55
About the only thing I can see is when they don't handle some new format or protocol you find to be important.
examples: I'd really like to use sshfs, but that requires 2.6. For now, at least, 2.4 has better media capabilities (and hardware support), which are more important to me. However, at some point newer software will allow me to do both the things I do now, and a few things I'd like to do (like sshfs, flash, maybe NX) POssibky, even, we will get a browser that is lighter and more nimble than firefox, yet as capapble--or newer versions of firefox will be somehow 'better.' Not a great example, as I was really not talking about applications per se, but hopefully you get what I mean?
On the whole, though, I agree-- I'm still running Dapper on my desktop. It works just fine.
I am, however, quite interested in what openmoko is doing
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I'm curious, how applications become outdated. I for one still want to check email, look up things on the web and work on spreadsheets. I certainly don't want to do those things on a pda so for me the zaurus is as small as I want to get.
cycle_55
About the only thing I can see is when they don't handle some new format or protocol you find to be important.
examples: I'd really like to use sshfs, but that requires 2.6. For now, at least, 2.4 has better media capabilities (and hardware support), which are more important to me. However, at some point newer software will allow me to do both the things I do now, and a few things I'd like to do (like sshfs, flash, maybe NX) POssibky, even, we will get a browser that is lighter and more nimble than firefox, yet as capapble--or newer versions of firefox will be somehow 'better.' Not a great example, as I was really not talking about applications per se, but hopefully you get what I mean?
On the whole, though, I agree-- I'm still running Dapper on my desktop. It works just fine.
I am, however, quite interested in what openmoko is doing
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I'm curious, how applications become outdated. I for one still want to check email, look up things on the web and work on spreadsheets. I certainly don't want to do those things on a pda so for me the zaurus is as small as I want to get.
cycle_55
About the only thing I can see is when they don't handle some new format or protocol you find to be important.
examples: I'd really like to use sshfs, but that requires 2.6. For now, at least, 2.4 has better media capabilities (and hardware support), which are more important to me. However, at some point newer software will allow me to do both the things I do now, and a few things I'd like to do (like sshfs, flash, maybe NX) POssibky, even, we will get a browser that is lighter and more nimble than firefox, yet as capapble--or newer versions of firefox will be somehow 'better.' Not a great example, as I was really not talking about applications per se, but hopefully you get what I mean?
On the whole, though, I agree-- I'm still running Dapper on my desktop. It works just fine.
I am, however, quite interested in what openmoko is doing
I do get exactly what you mean and agree totally. I am also very interested in what openmoko is doing .
cycle_55
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Very interesting thread...
Pretty usefull for a comming new user like me.
The Openmoko scene I am following also, so far Opie is still better to use on the NEO phone...
But the rumor goes that the OpenMoko project want to release their consumer product by the end of December...
Wich makes me really doubt to buy this GTA v1 version or wait for the GTA v2.
My 2 cents... I like Walkman's vision
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I killed the thread with my comments? Ooops. Sorry. Really, this wasn't intentional.
Certainly you did not...
Another thing came to my mind when thinking about improving the PDA experience on Z. I saw this in more PDA usage videos (probably also in one of those mentioned above about Apple Demo). They have there a web browser which allows zooming in/out the displayed webpage. Very inspiring indeed.
As I already said, I am quite unhappy about the small screen on yet a possibility to run all the full desktop apps like firefox. It came to my mind, whether it would be possible to extend that feature with zooming in and out to the whole window-manager. I imagine it like this:
- I open a display and see just a usual pdaXrom desktop.
- I click to KOrganizer which is somehow larger than my display
- I use a mouse gesture (itself a very useful feature!) to move the view of my virtual desktop to the left/right to see what's there (for example cancel button of Z and at the same time selecting a screen rectangle)
- possibly I use a gesture to select a piece of screen and then I zoom into it (the selected piece is best fit to my PDA screen)
- I can also zoom out using another gesture
- during all this, the panel and desktop icons (background image) behaves properly (it always works well as expected regardless of the size of the selected portion of the screen).
- so the real virtual desktop size is few times larger than the PDA screen, but I can navigate (left, right, up, down) in it using stylus gestures and even zoom in and out.
I am not yet sure how to do this. I have to take a look at what e.g. fvwm allows me to do in this regard. Possibly I would have to write my own window manager? Grrrr... That's too much. I am prepared to customize one, but to write a new from scratch is kind of too much for now...
Any ideas whether some window manager is configurable even to such an extent?
Well, and mouse gestures feature would be generally useful thing.
Having such a nice functionality of the window manager would make a real difference... Do others (e.g. openmoko) have such stuff inside?
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....
As my boss likes to tell me, if you see a problem, own the problem.
Hi Antikx ... nice quote there ...
Walkman, I hear you there. It took me awhile to figure out the distros, and I'm a developer! ... that said, there had been attempts over the years to sort things out. If we consider how the Familiar project evolved and how OE more or less get replaced by Angstrom, the general course is there.
Anyway, from what I see, many developers are busy trying to fix stability issues whenever they 'upgrade' to a new kernel. It's not funny anymore when after a few years, several revisions and you read "We are working on the touchscreen/SDcard/network support" for new releases. It makes me wonder why such a supposedly modular operating system breaks so easily from version to version. But since I also don't have the time to commit to solving it, I've taken the easy way out by keeping quiet and using Cacko with pdaQtrom installed while trying out other ROMs occassionally.
I have the Kohjinsha and with its 'miserable' 3+ hour batt life, I'm mixed between using it and my Z. I hope to squeeze out another 1~2 years out of my Z and after that, I would say that it has fulfilled its value for what I got it for.
Honestly, with all the goodness of opensource, a part of me secretly wish that I can just pay someone $100~$200 for a full functioning OS with all the feature set that I ask for. Kinda makes me believe that MS got this big and rich because they manage to fulfill the needs of 80% of users 80% of the time, so they manage to monopolize the PC market if you will. As it is, many of the distros for Zs fulfill 80% ~ 95% of some users needs, but its a niche 20% perhaps. The remaining 80% probably only get 40% ~ 60% satisfaction 50% of the time, so many jump ship after trying it out. Ok, I'm so generalising and tapping on unscientific (gut feel and sky numbers) means to arrive at these numbers, but you get the drift!
Then we have the problem of the small size of Z users and actual Zs available out in the market. Ah well, nothing like a rant once in awhile ...
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how OE more or less get replaced by Angstrom
Angstrom isn't replacing OE. OE is a buildsystem. Angstrom is a distribution. Angstrom packages are built using OE.
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how OE more or less get replaced by Angstrom
Angstrom isn't replacing OE. OE is a buildsystem. Angstrom is a distribution. Angstrom packages are built using OE.
Ah ... I stand corrected.