OESF Portables Forum
Everything Else => Model Specific Forums => Distros, Development, and Model Specific Forums => Archived Forums => Nokia Tablet => Topic started by: Snappy on November 13, 2007, 12:44:01 pm
-
http://www.nseries.com/index.html#l=products,n810,demo (http://www.nseries.com/index.html#l=products,n810,demo)
Any takers?
-
There are all of a sudden a good number of very tempting gadgets, most of them at very good prices. I wish I could justify getting the Fujitsu, the EEEPC, or the N810, but I just can't at the moment .
So yes, I am VERY tempted, but not at this point in time.
-
There are all of a sudden a good number of very tempting gadgets, most of them at very good prices. I wish I could justify getting the Fujitsu, the EEEPC, or the N810, but I just can't at the moment .
So yes, I am VERY tempted, but not at this point in time.
I think i've finally found my zaurus replacement.....
-
I am going for the N810 too - my Zaurus replacemernt and in-car GPS device too.
Niiiiiccccce !
-
here... here... I'm already starting to give hints to my wife that I may get one. I may have to sell my C1K though . Did anyone notice that Reed Richards was using a Nokia N800 on Fantastic Four 2 Rise of the Silver Surfer???
-
Indeed,
I have had a 770 for ~4 months now (got it from expansys for £70!!) This works great, and I have been picking up the 770 more than the 3100 for most of that time.
A doubling of Clock speed and RAM, 2GB of onboard Flash AND a gps, along with the existing integral BT & Wifi will probably knock the Zaurus permanently to the sidelines I'm afraid, so a 3100 plus all the addons may be up for grabs in a month or so...
Cheers,
Alistair
-
Free Palm OS Emulator (http://tabletblog.com/2007/11/free-palmos-emulator-for-nokia-internet.html) is available now.
-
Dammit, and just after i bought my C1000 ;(
-
sell it off as quick as you bought it ... :-)
The n810 is just around he corner - from market gossip ...
-
http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/11/12/zaurus-m...to-be-obsolete/ (http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/11/12/zaurus-machines-starts-to-be-obsolete/) is worth reading now...
-
http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/11/12/zaurus-m...to-be-obsolete/ (http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/11/12/zaurus-machines-starts-to-be-obsolete/) is worth reading now...
I read the stuff at the link. I think I don't agree with some of it--agreed there are newer devices which may see better support, and do more , agreed developers have priorities, agreed that sharp doesn't support the Zaurus, and that Angstrom devs will likely be working most on the Neo--and that the neo is a good idea and an interesting device. The thing about Angstrom support for the Zaurus is that it really hasn't been terrific. I've never found an OE or Angstrom release to be useable in any but the most literal and simple minded sense. I agree that OE/Angstrom kernel development for the Z has been tremendously important and influential, and that the time the OE/Angstrom devs have spent on the Z has been good for the community and, I think, for some of the ideas in Neo development.
My take: I wouldn't bet on a really useable Angstrom for anything from Nokia, either-- though possibly some important contributions will be made.
I really only expect polished work on the Neo and related devices--I'll probably buy one and use it. I just don't think that a lack of Angstrom enthusiasm for the Z means much about the state of the Zaurus--pdaXrom continues, and some interesting things are being done with debian (using Angstrom kernels, I admit). The Zaurus has, I think, a bit of useable life left, even if the Angstrom devs abandon it tomorrow- though I hope the build system continues to produce the updated Zaurus kernels that have had such an impact.
Edit-- re the original question, the 810 is very cool, but it would only represent an incremental improvement to my Z (at best) and accessories. the difference doesn't seem worth the expense. Now If I had no Z, ans were interested in a new linux powered handheld I'd probably buy this rather than a "new" Zaurus...
-
I think adf is right in his rebuttal of hrw's suggestion that the Z is dead - Angstrom is mainly, as I see it, a learning platform for people who are very serious about linux and need very little documentation; OpenZaurus was gaining traction and seemed quite popular and stable in its final moments, but I don't think there are enough Angstrom devs to maintain its vision of being available for so many platforms. Sharp and Cacko distros are a bit like PalmOS - useable, stable, easy to get to grips with, but somewhat stagnant. pdaXrom community is vibrant if a little haphazard?
Nokia, at least, provide some support for their products, even if it's simply maintaining a core platform for people to build on (which Sharp had done long ago but abandoned). The Nxx0 platform isn't truly open though, and they seem to be quite happy to abandon the 770 which isn't really that old and shouldn't be too hard to keep some level of support for - though at least they heard the outcry when they first tried to sweep it out of the way!
I do agree with HRW that the Nokia tablets or similar cutting edge linux handhelds are going to gradually kill off the Z platform simply because of its features, the 810 is the first to make a real dent in the Z's useability advantage of having a keyboard. If the 810's successor improves the keyboard, then I think we'll see more Zaurus owners leaving the Zaurus behind, especially if the Z continues to lack a really good modern web browser.
Personally, I use both my Z and 770. When my laptop's X11 driver broke after a kernel update and I needed to ssh in to it, I picked up my Z (running angstrom), its keyboard make fixing reinstalling the nvidia driver a doddle, but without an external keyboard for the 770 it'd have been painful!
-
Just ordered my N810 - its out for sale ftrom Nokia themselves as well as on pre-order from many retailers like Amazon themselves.
Got the best deal from Nokia - they added a $75 discount to make the price at $405 with free shipping too.
The Nokia Sales dept number is 888.665.4228 Option 1, option 2, option 1. Here are the details:
http://tabletblog.com/2007/11/n810-now-available-kinda.html (http://tabletblog.com/2007/11/n810-now-available-kinda.html)
Quick edit : sorry - just read the thred fully, and also got the follow up call from "Nokia" to verify the adress etc.
Now they say its backordered and will ship on Nov 26th.
Also it seems they are representing Nokia, but its not actually Nokia sales itself. They should have made that clear before itself.
Anyways, still have my order with them - since its cheaper than all else.
-
As they say ... so much to buy, yet so little dime ...
I just saw an ad in my place showing a compaq notebook going for ~USD$414. It's crazy, but still it's a full notebook with DVD burner and all, 14" beast ... oh wait ... ya I know, it's not a mini thingie ... but still ...
Note to self: Must stop buying notebooks just because they are diiiiirt cheap!
2nd note to self: Must not buy n810 or any other gadget until June 2008!!! ho ho ho ...
3rd note to self: x'mas and new year is not a good reason to get gifts for myself! ....
-
3rd note to self: x'mas and new year is not a good reason to get gifts for myself! ....
But is it a good time to con others into getting gifts for you?
-
Looks very cool, and I will have to replace the old C860 soon. How much are they going to charge for this in $C, I wonder?
Edit ... just answered my own question. One website at least has them on preorder for $C510. The C1000 is still cheaper, and will answer most of my needs ...
-
Is there an X11 port to the N810? It would be much more appealing if that were the case, and my searches haven't turned up anything (but I am horrible at searching).
Sorry if this has been asked/answered before, and thanks.
-
Is there an X11 port to the N810? It would be much more appealing if that were the case, and my searches haven't turned up anything (but I am horrible at searching).
Sorry if this has been asked/answered before, and thanks.
I believe the Nokia tablets (770 and N8x0) actually *run* X11, with a modified version of Gnome (meaning GTK-based apps are basically portable, Qt apps less so -- although there is a full-blown port of KDE itself available for the N800).
-
Dang. I was hoping for an excuse not to get one.
Can anybody else confirm or deny this?
-
Dang. I was hoping for an excuse not to get one.
Can anybody else confirm or deny this?
It's true. Runs X11 with modified Gnome. Porting GTK apps is fairly straightfoward, however you still should "Hildonize" the app which isn't so straightfoward.
R.
==
-
Is it a similar process to building/packaging for/on the Z? What about FLTK and SDL stuff?
Thanks, and sorry for having so many questions (I keep hoping there will be a major flaw so I don't want one so badly)
-
Don't just believe me, go read the official docs :-)
From the Maemo Quick Start Guide :
http://maemo.org/development/documentation...start-guide.pdf (http://maemo.org/development/documentation/maemo-quick-start-guide.pdf)
"3.2 Base distribution
Maemo is based to a large extent on the same open source components found in the
Debian[7] Linux distribution. Maemo builds on GNU/Linux for operating system core
and GNOME/GTK+ for user interface architecture.
Maemo uses the same component packaging system as Debian - dpkg-tool’s binary
packages. New packages can be installed, old ones can be removed and the whole sys-
tem can be upgraded by the package management framework. The ?le system structure
also comes from Debian.
(...)
Also notably the maemo platform adheres closely to the GNOME Mobile
Platform[16]. At the time of writing, maemo uses all the same components as this
platform except for service discovery."
-
This is definately a very bad turn of events for my wallet
Thanks!
-
This is definately a very bad turn of events for my wallet
Thanks!
One negative (well, perhaps not): No Java. Well, in truth, there is a GUI-less Java available, but it's fairly useless.
The Zaurus had some decent Java-based apps |Project Manager was great) that I would have loved to be able to use on the Nokia.
R.
==
-
Very true. Nokia seem very reticent to provide this port themselves, and are waiting for someone else to do it (Sun or another third-party).
It may only be a matter of time however, as the user base and notoriety of Nokia's tablets expand dramatically with each iteration. In 2005/2006 the 770 was very confidential and mainly a geek toy. This year the N800 was more heavily marketed as part of the N series, more widespread and easily available. Now it seems the N810 is going to be all over the place :-)
Also, the Nokia/Maemo team's relationship with upstream projects (GTK, Gnome, embedded-gnome & mobile-Ubuntu etc.), its developer community and user base, has had its ups and downs but seems to have found its way, and is paying off handsomely in the latest (4.0) version of the Tablet OS...
-
Sorry for all the questions, but I have (at least) one more (Is there a good place to look for answers, like a consolidated FAQ or something?): Can you make the n810 feel like a regular Linux system (dev tools, change the WM, themes, etc)?
Thanks for the quick, helpful responses and the patience.
-
Sorry for all the questions, but I have (at least) one more (Is there a good place to look for answers, like a consolidated FAQ or something?): Can you make the n810 feel like a regular Linux system (dev tools, change the WM, themes, etc)?
The definitive and official source of information, again, is http://maemo.org/ (http://maemo.org/) . There you will find the blog planet, platform docs, dev toolchains, howtos, etc. There are also two mailing lists run by the Nokia MAemo team (users and devs).
The focus point for the community (like OESF for the Zaurus) is ITT : http://www.internettablettalk.com/ (http://www.internettablettalk.com/) (mostly for the forums).
The regular toolchain is cross-compilation on a Linux PC using Scratchbox. I think there are few dev tools on the tablets proprer, except for Python.
The UI is definitely theme-able.
Changing the WM is a major undertaking, but it's been done (look for posts by "Penguinbait", or about "Mamona").
-
A deal-breaker! (I need to be able to switch WMs and have good dev tools on the device). Hopefully now I can spend more time on Zaurus stuff (compiling, coding) than debating about whether to get an N810 or not.
Thanks all!
-
Peace of mind at last ! Glad to be of help :-)
-
3rd note to self: x'mas and new year is not a good reason to get gifts for myself! ....
But is it a good time to con others into getting gifts for you?
That's an idea! I like the ring of it!
Sorry for all the questions, but I have (at least) one more (Is there a good place to look for answers, like a consolidated FAQ or something?): Can you make the n810 feel like a regular Linux system (dev tools, change the WM, themes, etc)?
Thanks for the quick, helpful responses and the patience.
I guess as it's been said, it's possible, though there may be an advantage to have the maemo shell/interface for a device of this size.
However, its built in keyboard sure leans weight to having a full blown linux desktop running.
A deal-breaker! (I need to be able to switch WMs and have good dev tools on the device). Hopefully now I can spend more time on Zaurus stuff (compiling, coding) than debating about whether to get an N810 or not.
Thanks all!
*grin*
If I had not gotten a kohjinsha ... grrr ...
-
Hey it really seems to b a coooool gadget. My next target is to buy 1 asap for me. Really Nokia Rocks.....
-
I already got mine in hand ... and biy, is it cool indeed .
The finish is very good - brushed metal finish. The keyboard of course doesnt come close to the Zaurus keyboard. Its a but hard also, but functional.
The screen is Wow! As for the real software - its good - functional and neatly arranged. Have been playing all day long since I got it ... Sadly all the N800 software (for OS2007) has still not been ported to OS2008 for Nokia N810 as yet.
But I installed GPE calendar and contacts to get a PIM replacement - as I can't be using both a Zaurus and the 810.
VoiP and Chat works very well, as its is built for that. There are some pretty good tools - a tool to Sync with Google calendar - thats a must for me. Browsing on the 810 itself is absolutely a painless experience (so far).
-
I already got mine in hand ... and biy, is it cool indeed .
The finish is very good - brushed metal finish. The keyboard of course doesnt come close to the Zaurus keyboard. Its a but hard also, but functional.
The screen is Wow! As for the real software - its good - functional and neatly arranged. Have been playing all day long since I got it ... Sadly all the N800 software (for OS2007) has still not been ported to OS2008 for Nokia N810 as yet.
But I installed GPE calendar and contacts to get a PIM replacement - as I can't be using both a Zaurus and the 810.
VoiP and Chat works very well, as its is built for that. There are some pretty good tools - a tool to Sync with Google calendar - thats a must for me. Browsing on the 810 itself is absolutely a painless experience (so far).
GPE Calendar and contacts is nice!
-
The screen is Wow! As for the real software - its good - functional and neatly arranged. Have been playing all day long since I got it ... Sadly all the N800 software (for OS2007) has still not been ported to OS2008 for Nokia N810 as yet.
The software is something that worries me--not what comes packaged, but Nokia's apparent tendency to abandon old platforms. everything they've released is really nice when released and orphaned a year or so later, as far as I can see. Possibly I haven't been paying enough attention
-
True - from what I have been catching up on on the Nokia Tablet forums - it seems the there were a lot of API changes in the new OS2008 (os for N810 that also works for N800) which broke a lot of the apps that were there for N800 on the older OS.
The N700 got dumped - development wise, so yes that is indeed a valid complaint toward Nokia. Again as per Nokia developers (and this is a good thing with Nokia unlike Sharp - ther devs hang around and answer on forums), the enhanced API while breaking some functionality, does add a lot more value - but again I dont know enough about it..
Now with the N810 - I am still waiting for Skype on the new OS (it works fine on N800 on OS2007 supposedly).
Also there is no VNC, mplayer (works with workarounds), stable python (pymaemo), and Python based apps (like UKMP) etc still working out of the box on the N810.
Agin the new OS is faster (so they say) and also widgets can be drigged around on the screen (really smooth), there is kinetic scrolling (like iPhone) on various OS2008 apps (like Mauku (Jailu client), Kagumusic player etc). The Kinetic scrolling is pretty nice and smooth too :-)
-
When my C1000 breaks and dies from my obsessive fiddling ... I will look into buying a N810 (or what ever is out by then). Until then with good care, wise accessory purchases and patients the Z will do for me Love the clamshell.
-
the n770 is still partly supported, at least with critical stuff, and although the official release is v2006, there's a hackers edition 2007 which is basically the 770 kernel with additions and as much of the v2007 edition libraries and packages for N800 as possible, so it's fairly up to date. I imagine there will be an n770 hackers edition which runs 2008 at some point.
of course, the 770 being a bit memory limited with slower CPU will struggle a bit with larger base system, but it means its still useful.
and there's still a fairly big software library for it.
however, after saying all of the above, I think that Nokia have not played nicely in relegating the 770 to the back burner, since provided they write their s/w to the appropriate standards, and the 770 has many common attributes with 800 and 810, then surely all they have to do is build a kernel for the 770 (ok, maybe they'd have to update a few driver modules) and all the user space stuff should be identical?
-
Well, I ran into a stumbling block with the N810... couldn't import the Zaurus exported KoPi and Kapi contacts and Calendar files and import it back in GPE Calendar and GPE contacts on the N810. DAMN !
Now, me thinks I have to stick with the Zaurus some more time .. in fact just put in back on charge ... :-)
But on the other hand the N810 works fantastic as a connecction device (auto connmects to my home Wifi while at home, or else autoconnects to my GRPS over phone via bluetooth. Voip is pretty good - I used Gtalk and Gizmo.
Even found my shared drives (without needing any tweaking) and I can wirelessly transfer files to/from my desktop.
Overall the software feels much more finished for the end-user unlike the Zaurus which could (and still can) do more potentially, but required much more tweaking and modifiying conf files here and there.
Actually now that I dont use the GPS much on the N810 and the keyborad is nowhere near the Zaurus - I feel maybe I could downgrade to the N800 (whch runs the same software now) and save myself around $200 bucks.
Ha - decisions and decisions ...
-
Nilch said: Well, I ran into a stumbling block with the N810... couldn't import the Zaurus exported KoPi and Kapi contacts and Calendar files and import it back in GPE Calendar and GPE contacts on the N810. DAMN !
Try the openhand pimlico apps. The contact and calendar apps both have import functions (on pdaxii3 as well as the nokia). They also use the evolution database format. On pdaxii3, I tried importing a kopi calendar file in the pimilco calendar. It imported fine, but the timezone was off.
The pimlico contact app seems okay. I really don't like the pimlico calendar app.
For an alternative calendar app on the nokia, you could try Gene Cash's python calendar app, which so far seems to work. URL is here: http://home.cfl.rr.com/genecash/nokia/index.html (http://home.cfl.rr.com/genecash/nokia/index.html)
-mars
-
I realize I'm pure evil for posting this, but dell is selling the N800 for 75$ off for the next couple days.
*sigh*
a search of nokia n800 should pull it up.
...or just go here: dell.com (http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Tablet_PC/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&sku=A1300078)
-
Uhm... where's that deal? Any links?
-
Uhm... where's that deal? Any links?
Added link to my post, see above
-
I realize I'm pure evil for posting this, but dell is selling the N800 for 75$ off for the next couple days.
Woah, for a moment I read that as Dell is selling it for $75 and I instaltly jumped up and went to the site looking up for a $75 N800. Alas, that was not to be - its for $199 after a $75 off.
Actually many retailers (Buy.com) also had it for $199 for quite sime time (and for Black Friday).
I can't justify another N800 to wifey, after the N810 - but could have if it was for $75 - with enough love to go with it
-
Thanks MARS ...
I ultimately got it to import the Vcards from the Zaurus. Seems like one entry was the culprit with some invalid field value ... the rest of them imported fine after some experimentation - with both Contacts and Calendar.
But sadly the PIM on Nokia is no match with KoPi and Kapi.
-
I just came across this
http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/software-development/ (http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/software-development/)
QT for the OS2008 (the OS for N810 and N800 devices).
The home page doesnt still show anything for the project as yet ... if true this is too good to be true ..
Does this imply that all Zaurus apps (or most) can be ported to the N810 also ?
That would be great - to have the best of both worlds - QT and Hildon GTK apps on the same device. Dont know about performance though.
Still tweaking ny new N810 to perfection - but I giess I will have to give this a try to install at least.
-
tell us more about browsing under the n810 : how fast is it ? are all web sites render with frames and javascript ?
for example maps.google.com or www.facebook.com
how are adobe flash pages managed ?
-
Very tempting, particularly with OS2008.
nilch: I wouldn't get your hopes up too high on a functional QT port. There was a good run at getting QT working on the 770, but that went nowhere. It seems difficult to install and doesn't have control of things like powering down.
jpmatrix: There are Youtube videos showing how the N800 (before and after OS2008) performs on websites. It has Adobe Flash Player 9, that works with nearly everything from what I've seen on Youtube and on Internet Tablet Talk.
-
I realize I'm pure evil for posting this, but dell is selling the N800 for 75$ off for the next couple days.
Woah, for a moment I read that as Dell is selling it for $75 and I instaltly jumped up and went to the site looking up for a $75 N800. Alas, that was not to be - its for $199 after a $75 off.
Actually many retailers (Buy.com) also had it for $199 for quite sime time (and for Black Friday).
I can't justify another N800 to wifey, after the N810 - but could have if it was for $75 - with enough love to go with it
hee hee. ya $75 would be sweet.
Buy.com says it's selling it for $229
did they raise it?
-
Buy.com says it's selling it for $229
did they raise it?
My brother and I bought one each, paying $229 from Amazon, because they had stock and we could trust them to deliver next day to his friend who we discovered was coming to England at short notice. They arrived yesterday (Mon 3rd), and I'm itching to get my hands on mine!
-
The deal on Dell's site is gone now.
-
QT for the OS2008 (the OS for N810 and N800 devices).
I downloaded the .install file, which is basically a debian apt/sources.list entry, and it looks like this:
[install]
repo_name = Qt4
repo_deb = deb http://qt4.garage.maemo.org/ (http://qt4.garage.maemo.org/) chinook user
package = qt4-maemo-example
and it looks like someone is already using it:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=12675 (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12675)
-
Would this whole thread not be better under the Nokia Tablets forum?
Just wondering..
-
Oops, N810 might be in your Christmas gift list after reading this review. (http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=13497)
-
I bought one, as the Zaurii are dying (no vendor support, Angstrom people more into OpenMoko than Z), I feel it makes a good substitute. The N810 keyboard ist not as good as the one of the clamshell Z. The German variant doesn't lacks a $ key (but has ä ö ü €), certainly not targeted for coders.
My first impressions review (http://www.spacezone.de/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=58&w=en)
-
Thanks for the mini review and pictures Jan. Well done!
-
I bought one, as the Zaurii are dying (no vendor support, Angstrom people more into OpenMoko than Z), I feel it makes a good
actually, angstrom is soon to achieve a release milestone - will probably actually succeed too (provided they don't argue too much!)
if openmoko makes it big, I could imagine it being a good distro for the Z, and Debian is doing quite well based on the Angstrom kernel, and Android is causing a lot of interest.
The Z may be resting, but there's still a lot of life in the old gal yet!
-
I think its obvious that Sharpe have totally abandoned the Z. But, really, does the fact that the Z has no "official" commercial support REALLY matter that much? After all, the Commodore Amiga has been commercially dead for over 12 years now. There is virtually no commercial interest/support for the Amiga, yet it has an AMAZING vibrant community full of people still developing for it.
I think the Z will head the same way, it will continue to grow under its own steam and it will retain those users who truly love this unique platform. The Z will go down as a "classic" computer in time and if you take a look around at other, older, "classic" platforms (such as the Amiga, C64, Apple Newton, etc) you realize that there is no fear for the Z's future. Those who love to use their Z's will be able to do so for MANY years to come, despite the lack of commercial support. The Z "community" will keep it alive if it is strong enough (which I feel it is)
All this talk of a "Zaurus replacement" and this apparent manic obsession with OTHER (newer) devices seems to be coming from those people who simply crave the latest and greatest. Which is great, for them. But, personally, I love the Z for its unique design and really do not think any other device (including the N810) could replace the Z.
There is pretty much NO hope for the Z to be a commercial success again, I think. We should just accept that fact and begin to appreciate the Z for what it is and focus on creating our own system of support and development. WE DO NOT NEED COMMERCIAL BACKING TO MAKE OUR Z A SUCCESS!!
-
Well said.
Allow me to say one thing: with the official support from standard *nix distros (like OpenBSD and Debian, and possibly Android in future as well), the Z will last for years to come for sure.
-
There is pretty much NO hope for the Z to be a commercial success again, I think. We should just accept that fact and begin to appreciate the Z for what it is and focus on creating our own system of support and development. WE DO NOT NEED COMMERCIAL BACKING TO MAKE OUR Z A SUCCESS!!
the Z has never been a commercial success outside Japan! However, I strongly agree with you.
I sometimes wonder if these machines become a cult success because they're abandoned by the commercial companies and thus they leave the community rather than interfere. An (over-)simplified example of corporate interference might be Sony's MyLo.
e.g.1. The original MyLo product (my life online) using Sony's "Clie" line was a failure. The dedicated Mylo1 was a failure, The Mylo2 looks set to repeat many of the same mistakes. They're almost completely closed platform despite being Linux + QT based!
e.g.2. The Sony Clie Palms, which were fairly open because anyone could get hold of the Palm SDK, were pretty successful and many people rated their hardware highly, even though Sony weren't brilliantly helpful to their developers; like Sharp, they abandoned the developer's forums despite protestations (if I recall correctly).
e.g.3. The Nokias are successful, with Nokia having a good community around the machines and not trying to limit what people can do with them. Even the original 770 despite its failings was still a popular device.
-
the Z has never been a commercial success outside Japan! However, I strongly agree with you.
I sometimes wonder if these machines become a cult success because they're abandoned by the commercial companies and thus they leave the community rather than interfere. An (over-)simplified example of corporate interference might be Sony's MyLo.
e.g.1. The original MyLo product (my life online) using Sony's "Clie" line was a failure. The dedicated Mylo1 was a failure, The Mylo2 looks set to repeat many of the same mistakes. They're almost completely closed platform despite being Linux + QT based!
e.g.2. The Sony Clie Palms, which were fairly open because anyone could get hold of the Palm SDK, were pretty successful and many people rated their hardware highly, even though Sony weren't brilliantly helpful to their developers; like Sharp, they abandoned the developer's forums despite protestations (if I recall correctly).
e.g.3. The Nokias are successful, with Nokia having a good community around the machines and not trying to limit what people can do with them. Even the original 770 despite its failings was still a popular device.
Interesting observations Speculatrix however I have to disagree with you on example 3. While the Nokia's might be successful in some regions it is not a universal success. I have yet to see one in person nor can walk into a local electronics store and pick one up but I have seen half a dozen iPhones (and they aren't even officially available in my country).
-
The MyLo ... well, I'm afraid to say it's almost unheard of and not talked about at all, at least it's practically non-existent in most gadget websites and forums (apart from the news about releases...)
The Sony Clies! To me they are the most amazingly handheld devices I've ever used! I still have the NX73v European ver.: 3.7" 480x320, virtual graffiti, dual card slots (CF type II & MS (pro)), microphone, toy (but quite fun!) camera, swivel-clamshell design, thumbboard, and -- builtin bluetooth! It was the heyday of my mobile experience to use bluetooth connection to my Sony Ericsson cellphone for GPRS netorking. I simply buried my cellphone in the bag as a "modem", using my the Clie's addressbook and touchscreen dialing and talking in a bluetooth headset. I also used that for my infrared remote control (well, perhaps I should use it now to replace the broken for my home tv ... why not? ). To be honest, even my 3200 falls short in some ways standing beside it.
And when I think of Clie 760 I am still amazed at its vibrant screen and the "stamina" battery!
I guess the Cliesource (which no longer exists, sadly...) was the most successful PalmOS community effort to make the gadget rock. It was such an excitement to see new patches and hacks popping up every now and then.
It is still being charged once in a while to sustain the battery. I will surely pick it up again IF it can run linux! (It's Intel PXA250 ARM ...)
At one time I also thought of getting a N810 when Sharp practically made the Zaurus an EOL product last year. But now the solutions to running great distros rekindle my Zpirit! I may want to get a N810 if it can go as far as the Z, though.
-
Well, after learning that Angstrom runs and is functional on the N810, I broke down and ordered one.
No need to panic, though, I'll be around here most likely as long as this site exists in a semi-active state.
Yes, I will do my own comparison of the Z (3100 and 750) to it.
Allow the panic, commotion, questions, and general havoc to commence!
-
Allow the panic, commotion, questions, and general havoc to commence!
PANIC!!!!
I've been looking at the N810 as well. One of my co-workers is a big Nokia fanboi he has an N770 and an N800. My biggest turn off with those devices was no keyboard. Of course, the N810 came out after I purchased my C3200 and now I am seeing the slow down of this community. The N810 has it's faults, but it does have a lot of good things going for it.
The Z is a great device, but vendor support is a really nice touch and does make a difference.
-
I have no need for vendor support (there's no way Nokia will support Angstrom, and no WAY am I staying with the normal OS. Nothing I own and use runs the same OS it came with ). It's more the extra RAM and pixels that are doing it for me (and gadget lust).
-
I have no need for vendor support (there's no way Nokia will support Angstrom, and no WAY am I staying with the normal OS. Nothing I own and use runs the same OS it came with ). It's more the extra RAM and pixels that are doing it for me (and gadget lust).
I must admit, it was the better display that "made me" buy a 770 2nd hand lightly used, and then I got the n800 remaindered. The 810's keyboard is still inferior to the Z, and the Z's CF slot, into which I can put my GPRS adaptor, means the Z still has that edge. If the N had sufficient power to drive "my" (employers' Huawei E172) 3G usb adaptor, then the case for the Z would weaken.
-
I have no need for vendor support (there's no way Nokia will support Angstrom, and no WAY am I staying with the normal OS. Nothing I own and use runs the same OS it came with ). It's more the extra RAM and pixels that are doing it for me (and gadget lust).
By vendor support I mean tool chain, hardware docs in English, flash tools, and things like Skype and Macromedia Flash binaries. It does help to have a vendor that does more than dump code. Nokia provides instruction on how to compile new kernels and how to flash new kernels. Not that they are going to support some new ROM, but making all this available helps make hacking the device more accessible.
-
FWIW, besides getting back into the Z fold by getting another 3200 this week
I found a great deal that I couldn't pass up for a new N810 over at OverStockDealz.com.....
I saw their 'Make Offer' button and figured what the heck....offered them $300 and they accepted....
BTW, the one they list as 'N810R' is a new in the box unit. Their description was a bit confusing but I called and discussed it with them. The other one listed 'N810RB' is a new unit, but probably either openbox or maybe a store demo unit. Hence, the lower price....
So, got it a week ago...haven't used it that much yet, but it is quite nice and works well, excellent display...keyboard is better than what I expected, but not as nice as C3xxx keyboard...
Has a very different feel than a Z.....we'll see whether it's a keeper or not....
But plan on keeping my Z this time!!!!!
-
I bought it from there too! I should have taken the time to offer $300...I paid $350 . Live and learn, I guess.
What do you mean by "different feel?" The software or hardware?
-
I bought it from there too! I should have taken the time to offer $300...I paid $350 . Live and learn, I guess.
What do you mean by "different feel?" The software or hardware?
Hmmm....suppose both....
First, it's a slider design rather than a clamshell design like the Cxxx...so, that automatically gives it a different feel, literally....
I find that when I'm at my desk at home or at work then it's nicer to use a clamshell design so you can sit the Z on your desk surface and use like lil' lappy (although you can sit and use Z as slate in your hand too of course...).
If you're standing, then slider with thumboard keyboard is probably nicer (although you can stand and Z as slate in your hand too....)...
Hmmm......
Second, the way you navigate through the OS, feels different than the Z too....not saying that it's good or bad, but different....although it's pretty good once you use for a few days...
Third, maybe due to the various OS options out for the Z, it just feels right now more 'tweakable' or 'hackable'...but maybe my take on this will change if I use N810 more...
Fourth, N810 with built-in WiFi is very nice, but I don't think it's that big of a deal to use a CF WiFi card....
So, each has a very distinct feel to them, with their own pros and cons......maybe I'll keep both!
HTH,
Mark
-
How about the keyboard? I guess I'd describe the Cxx00's keyboards as slightly "mushy" (but still VERY nice). How's the N810's compared to that?
Z, it just feels right now more 'tweakable' or 'hackable'...but maybe my take on this will change if I use N810 more...
You mean the Z feels more tweakable/hackable? That's my current impression, but I'm thinking that with Angstrom on the N810, it ought to feel the same software-wise as my Z.
-
You mean the Z feels more tweakable/hackable? That's my current impression, but I'm thinking that with Angstrom on the N810, it ought to feel the same software-wise as my Z.
I was reading that there is unused 3D acceleration hardware on the N8*, which seems kinda silly that Nokia never has used it if it is there. And the performance of the Quake port on that device is not very impressive. My guess is they don't have any super geeks like sashz over there.
-
How about the keyboard? I guess I'd describe the Cxx00's keyboards as slightly "mushy" (but still VERY nice). How's the N810's compared to that?
Hmmm.. I never thought of the Cxxxx's keyboard as mushy, more like very 'clicky'....
Z, it just feels right now more 'tweakable' or 'hackable'...but maybe my take on this will change if I use N810 more...
You mean the Z feels more tweakable/hackable? That's my current impression, but I'm thinking that with Angstrom on the N810, it ought to feel the same software-wise as my Z.
Yes..... I don't know much about Angstrom....
-
You mean the Z feels more tweakable/hackable? That's my current impression, but I'm thinking that with Angstrom on the N810, it ought to feel the same software-wise as my Z.
I was reading that there is unused 3D acceleration hardware on the N8*, which seems kinda silly that Nokia never has used it if it is there. And the performance of the Quake port on that device is not very impressive. My guess is they don't have any super geeks like sashz over there.
I think I read on the forums that they don't have enough video memory to implement the 3d acceleration. Though I might be misremembering. The biggest problem I had with the device, I had the 800, was the "vendor support", or lack of it. Right after the last big os update the whole section in charge of the nits went on holiday! It was like they posted the files on the way out the door. Never mind the fact that their update servers weren't working. Everybody either had to flash back to the previous os, or wait three freaking weeks for them to fix their update servers. The devices had a funny habit of trashing sd cards. The new gui isn't as tweakable as the old one. They touted the webcam as a way to do on the go video conferencing, then pulled the application a few months after release. Which basically made the camera a useless part. It's really not a good camera, my old cell phone had a better camera. I really tried to like the device, it just wasn't quite there. Maybe the 810 would be different. I don't know, I've never seen one in real life. Though I never saw the 800 in real life before I bought it either.
-
Hmmm.. I never thought of the Cxxxx's keyboard as mushy, more like very 'clicky'....
Compared to the C750's keyboard, it is definitely slightly "mushy" (less force to press keys, less noise), but, then again, the C750's keyboard is REALLY "clicky." That's where my comparison is coming from.
EDIT: I'm actually slightly concerned that Angstrom won't work as well on the N810 as I was led to believe. If not, I'll see if I can do anything to remedy the situation.
-
I think I read on the forums that they don't have enough video memory to implement the 3d acceleration.
from what I understand, the N800 has a design flaw which means there's a bandwidth bottleneck between CPU and video, which prevents playback of video at higher screen rates. the 770 didn't have this flaw, and its CPU is the limiting factor.
Unfortunately in creating the n810 from the 800, they didn't redesign the hardware (I presume there's a gate array or ASIC) to fix this problem; if wimax version does come out and if it improves video bandwidth and if it would work in the UK then I would strongly consider upgrading to it, as it is my twin-SD-slot N800 is good enough for me!
The accelerated video is down to Nokia not actually getting drivers from TI for the chipset, it's been a bone of contention and a lot of people have taken a pot-shot at Nokia for what seems to be a really stupid situation!