OESF Portables Forum
Model Specific Forums => Sharp Zaurus => Zaurus - pdaXrom => Topic started by: LordDavon on March 25, 2004, 09:41:48 pm
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I am not a pdaXrom specific developer, but it is the platform I develop for. I find it to be one of the easiest ROMs to cater to. So, as I know Sash (the originator of the ROM) is watching and is always listening to the users, I thought I would toss out a simple question; Where would you like to see pdaXrom go? Would it be a different Window Manager? Would it be better integration to Windows? Do you have a more profession use for it for you business? Need a better game machine? What specific applications fit your needs?
The idea is simple. People like sash are creating a ROM for the user. We, the developing group, and those that work the actual ROM, need to hear what your use is and what your need is.
LD
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Sash and team do excellent work!
I use Qtopia at work on my 760 because it\'s quick and easy for one-handed use. The best setup possible for me would be the ability to boot pdaXrom from my SD card, but it will take someone more knowledgeable than me to do it. Derekp and jerrybme have been working on dual booting in another topic and I hope it works.
To your question, I like pdaXrom with matchbox. I\'d like to see more variety in apps for network discovery and mapping, as well as an entry on the desktop to browse storage similar to the document tab in Qtopia.
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Absolutely, pdaXrom is fine, but for me of no use when on the move, I like Qtopia. Having the option to boot from CF/SD card would be excellent, I would use it MUCH more, and I suspect everyone who could would.
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I love pdaXrom and dev environ. Features I rely on are:
Perl / IrDA PPP / 802.11 / Dillo / rdeskop / vnc / ssh
Things I would like to find in the feed:
(kismet || Snort) && ((Rotation && (Onscreen keyboard || HandWriting )) && LIRC && USB CF Host card driver (keyboard || mouse || etc) && GPS util
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Where would I like pdaXrom to go? To the 5600!!!
No, really, why don\'t you release it for the 5600? There\'re lots of 5600 users dying to have a better alternative to OpenZaurus.
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There are some things that I\'d like to see in next versions of pdaX:
1) Qtopia programs support (IMHO, it wolud be easier and more simple than dual boot);
2) Dos emulation with a speed of a fast 286 or slow 386 (I know it\'s possible);
3) Smaller buttons and icons so it would be possible to arrange minimized tasks into the taskbar (like in \"big\" systems). KDE with something like OpenOffice would be very nice also;
4) More browsers, like Opera, Netfront, Lynx, Netscape and so on;
5) Full usage of Zaurus video acceleration and support for games for different platforms (Spectrum, Gameboy, Symbian 60 etc.)
6) \"Generic\" drivers for all CF modems, wired and wireless network cards, FM radio, Bluetooth adapters and so on. Unfortunately, OEMs seem to ingore Linux and especially PDA Linux and don\'t release even source code of the drivers.
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Where would I like pdaXrom to go? To the 5600!!!
No, really, why don\'t you release it for the 5600? There\'re lots of 5600 users dying to have a better alternative to OpenZaurus.
I\'d like that too
It seems that it would be more possible now than in the past using the matchbox window manager.
I like pdaXrom, but as somebody posted above Qtopia seems better fit for travel. I find myself Switching between Cacko\'s qt rom and pdaXrom allot, depending on where I am going to be during the weekends.
I\'d like to be able to change resolutions when using sdl/game emulators. Your snes emulator would run great at a fullscreen 320x240 resolution.
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As far as the \'general direction\', I don\'t see that there need be one - if put into words, I think the \'general direction\' most appropriate for pdaXrom itself would be a stable, flexible, general-purpose base on which to install whatever tools we desire.
To that end, I think it should try to incorporate support for all aspects of its unique environment, IE silkie buttons, rotation, and extreme flexibility in storage assignment - actually running off a flashcard would be a separate sub-project, I\'d think, but reliable control over initial partitioning, and better install-to-SD/CF results. (and that last depends in large part on ipk creators accounting for those possibilities, I think)
As far as \'add-on\' capabilities, here\'s a selection of things that would be of use to me.
Multiple kernels, or availability of a selection of kernel modules. (I\'ve been too busy to set up cross-compiling again to build a kernel with iptables, traffic control, advanced routing, bridging, etc as I have for my 5600)
Konsole, or something functionally similar. A shell environment with font and color control, and preferably tab support.
More flexible WM, or more control over MatchBox, if it offers \'enough\' knobs, and smoothly integrated file manager. Rox helps on that last part.
Mozilla Thunderbird email? Since firefox manages to work functionally (wow) perhaps t-bird can as well. On the flipside of that, perhaps a very lightweight email client, with modern protocol support (smtp-auth, imap, etc) but minimal bells and whistles - basically for quick check/send usage.
\'Silkie\' applet, so we can assign functions to the silkscreen buttons. (not necessarily a toolbar applet, though)
A toolbar applet to reproduce the \"active tasks\" list, and usable keyboard shortcuts to cycle through windows.
Rotation. On Sharp ROM on my 860 I had mapped the E/J silkie button as manual rotation - together with automatic rotation, I could tap it and go back to landscape while holding it in PDA form for the occasional need. I\'d like at least manual rotation, and triggering via E/J would be just great, automatic would be fantastic.
On the subject of rotation, I\'ve a gripe about the clock applet - when set to orientation north or south, the clock is oriented properly for viewing in \'laptop\' form. When set to east or west, the clock is oriented for viewing from the \'west\' or left side as seen in laptop form. The problem is that when the unit is swiveled to PDA form, this means the clock numerals are upside-down in west and east, both.
Keyboard-triggered mouse-button-selection, and mapping of jog wheel to mouse wheel. I\'m also pondering ok/cancel buttons to L/R mouse, but there\'d have to be a way to leave it off.
GUI for keyboard mapping.
My primary uses of my 860 are as a handheld remote terminal (ssh, X11, & rdesktop) and handheld apache-]perl-]mysql development environment. Secondary are as a PDA, and currently I\'ve not installed any PIM yet under pdaXrom.
When I get back from a business trip this coming week I want to try to set up the cross-compile environment. If someone can point me to the correct kernel sources to start with and the patches present in the pdaXrom kernel, (PM or email) I\'d be willing and able to handle the modules request above. I have ip and iptables originally compiled for my 5600 that run fine under pdaXrom, just lacking the actual netfilter kernel support. I could probably put together a kernel-networking ipk.
When I can find the time, I really want to do some development specifically for the X11 Z - right now, it\'s all just Perl quickies, and web-]DB interfaces and such for work. Except for the occasional need for address book or calendar, I haven\'t looked back since flashing to X11 the second day I had my C860. (eventually I\'ll install KoPi or something and end that.)
(FWIW, I\'ve used my 5600 as a wireless router/firewall before, feeding IR to a cellphone for several days)
Well, that\'s more than most of you will want to read, so I\'ll stop now.
j
ps - Power button. (\'nuf said :^)
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Feel free to use the \"bug reporting\" function on the site: http://www.pdaxrom.org/buglist.php?menuid=37 (http://www.pdaxrom.org/buglist.php?menuid=37) for feature request - just remeber to set \"Type\" to feature request :-)
A quick update: Sash is working hard on another project (one that might pay his rent) not related to Zaurus and therefore there haven\'t been any updates to the ROM yet. But soon he will release a new ROM and the long awaited SDK (and might also a SDK ISO, so you can boot your windows PC with the CD-ROM and start developing without installing Linux on your harddrive) Im a complete novice to programming and I managed to get som C64 emulators to compile by simply following the included tutorials :-)
So hang on tight and soon some of your wishes might come true, and as always don\'t forget to donate to the pdaXrom team don\'t have to live on the cold streets of Tomsk in Russia ;-)
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More games and better game support! Also a working on/off button and screen rotation
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Well, off the top of my head:
Working on/off button (not vital, but it\'s there so it may as well work :-)
Screen flip (again not vital to me, but it\'s there - not sure how hard this would be though. I don\'t know whether X will like being resized?)
Better power management!!!! - different screen brightnesses, screen switch off and unit suspend timouts depending on the availablility of external power (this would make a huge difference to me).
Turn screen off when lid is closed (possibly have the alternative to turn unit off - user specified setting - like the Psion series 5 etc.), it just seems wasteful to me to have to wait for the screen to turn off when the lid is closed (for example when listening to mp3s).
A few other random thoughts:
Is it possible to remap the jog dial (for example in xmms it fast forwards and rewinds, but would be more useful to me as a volume control)?
I think it would be a good idea to have a base set of apps installed by default (or at the very least a recommendation of what to install - I was a bit overwhelmed when I started out). For example a filemanager, terminal which has a scroll bar, simple image viewer, calculator (actually this may be there anyway, I\'ll have to check), etc.
In any case congrats to sash and the team, I\'m thouroughly enjoying being able to look at (and process) my PhD data in the palm of my hand (with Octave & gnuplot). Keep up the good work.
Si
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I would like to see all this ROM development stuff opened up more, all the projects under one roof with a Debian philosophy. My concern is that we really are at the mercy of a couple of people who say what does and what does not happen. God forbid, but if Sash had an accident, or got bored with the Z, that\'s it for all the people that depend on pdaXrom - to be honest the main reason I wont use it, it needs documentation - much more than exists now, a team to work just on that, a team to work on art and graphics etc etc etc..
Case in point, I use the Cacko QT ROM, is there a web site? No, they moved on, unless you know of this site and know where to look, a potential Cacko QT user is left stranded.
With new machines coming,i.e. non-Zaurus (Royal for example), we have to be realistic, if we don\'t start pulling stuff together and forming proper teams to work on these ROMs, we could end up with talent going in new directions and leaving the Zaurus behind, a dead-end for us.
Don\'t flame, I may not have explained my case well, Im tired and just woke up, but I do have a point. Maybe a topic for a new thread...
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should we set up a pdaXrom dev site? ala \"sourceforge\" or \"freshmeat\" etc?
I wouldn\'t mind hosting it, etc. my dev system has come in (at home) and I want to
have sources for *everything* that is running on the pda so I can compile them all.
It seems to me, Laze, that one of the NICE things aobut not having so many
quick releases, is it gives people a chance to see where the water is leaking, so to
speak. Things like the dial button, etc. For me, I want dillo screen to scroll when
you click on the background and not a link (like opera / netfront under qt?) and
have this be selectable via a toggle button (for those times when you
might not want it and for those who this might irk, etc). All of these little things
could be done either via patches ala freebsd ports, or if we get ballsy, we could
submit official patches.
I think the pdaxrom is amazing, and the more people who tinker with it, the better.
what it may lack is a centralized group that is well organized. Sash is amazing --
but look what happens when he has to pay rent? :-) seriously, if someone else
or a group could be all working on things like patches, updates, new programs, etc.,
it only helps i the long run. Spread the load.
So, what do people think -- is this worth setting up? Also, what type of system
can do this and what apps are needed (ie: mysql? etc) Are there any
systems out there that will do this aready -- where we can just ./configure
and make install :-]
Scott
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The sdk allows you to build all of the packages from source in an automated fashion (much like OE does for the OZ ROM & packages).
You can alter the make files for each package (change/add patches, source download location, etc.) to change the packages, etc.
I\'ve used the SDK to rebuild the cross-toolchain to enable f77 support, it took me all of about 20min worth of work (and a fair bit longer waiting for the compilation process to finish ;-))
Simon
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We should try to setup a \"development crew\" but the only problem is probally is keeping track of who is working on what and who makes the best soultions to the problems, right now the nice things is that Sash knows everything from A to Z and can fix it. It know its not good to rely on one person alone, but actually i think it is and then other people can compile their own ROMS and if the pdaXrom team thinks there are som nice ideas/solutions they can work with the orignal author and implement them into the ROM. Actually its not just Sash that\'s working on the ROM, several other are also making contributions - Sash is just the CVS right now :-)
Hope it doesn\'t sound like i don\'t like the OpenSource idea, but i just often think the big open source projects runs wild and get to \"complicated\" and nothing happens with the projects and they slowly die or just one member is left on the projecy.
Maybe when we get a more finished and stable ROM we can just focus and making the \"apps\" for the ROM, the ROM itself is just meant to be the \"shell\" for all the nice \"open source\" PIMs, programs, games etc. We are working on making an \"upload to unstable ipk feed\" function where everyone can upload and add the compiled programs to our feeds. Its working right now and its in the final testing fases. The ROM is offcourse Open Source and ca be used for everybody to look and compile after and everybody is welcome to contribute with ideas and patches.
Btw. Im speaking for myself and not on behalf off the pdaXrom team.
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should we set up a pdaXrom dev site? ala \"sourceforge\" or \"freshmeat\" etc?
Something like that Scott, yes, that\'s what I was getting at, but I lack clarity until my first coffee of the day.
Moreover, we need sourceforges for ALL these ROMs, tkcROM (which I wish had a name that wasn\'t to tied into a company), the Cacko ROMs et al.
We need a more centralised means for new users, newbies and budding developers to come, there are too many things going in too many directions, a recipe for disaster.
Now, for another coffee.....
-Francis
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I guess the main reason I haven\'t used the product yet (and where it should go for me) are:
1. It is an \"all or nothing\" solution - completely replaces Qtopia - the good and the bad.
2. It doesn\'t yet synch with MS-Exchange. As much as I love hacking around with programs on the Z, I still need to carry my schedule and get work done. If all I needed was a PDA, I\'d buy a Palm instead, but the Z has to still cover the PDA functions - most importantly Windows synching.
At home, OS/X synching would be a plus too!
I\'d also like to see different XWindows solutions be feed compatible - I think Qt/X and PdaXRom are using different libraries for example.
I used to have a 5500 and PdaXrom reminds me of OpenZaurus - It was always interesting, but (for me) never quite stable enough for everyday use.
I think there is more of a Zaurus future in opensource efforts than there is from Sharp so I\'ll continue to watch/wait.
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I use Cacko/Qt and it works for me, however I still need to run X apps and use Xqt for that.
I\'d like to see pdaXrom separated into core/base and apps/libs with apps that work with Xqt as well. E.g. are the libs I need to run app xyz only included with pdaXrom, can I also get them as a stand alone package?
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if it worked with 5600 i would switch to it right now
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I actually completly agree with padishah_emperor. I would love to see pdaXrom development more opened! It is bad they dropped the Cacko QT Rom, and the pdaXrom seriously lacks docs, even if it is great!
Laze, Open source does not mean being a mess, it just means that someone needs to have the final word. I would see sash as the Linus of the pdaXrom!
For my part, I would like in the following order:
1) Better doc: clear, step by step instructions on how to rebuild the toolchains, and the whole rom, how to make a package etc... Info exists but is too spreadout. Again, I would be willing to help.
2) Better hardware support: Screen rotation (a must!!), volume controls, on/off buttons, USB mass storage (they may already have this) etc...
3) Support for QTopia! I would LOVE a merge between the Cacko QT and pdaXrom!! My point is that ko/PI is in realease 1.66d (for QTopia) or something while only the 1.62 is available for pdaXrom. In addition, there is currently NO address book (or I completly missed it) while ko/PI for Qtopia already have one. This is not a critic to anyone, but the apps are evolving so quickly and we have too few people working on pdaXRom (even they are doing a great job!!).
Just my few wishes!
It does not mean to be a critic to anyone. Just food for thoughts.
Best regards,
Patrick
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ppfundst.. I agree that Open Source isn\'t always as mess, but i just meant until we find the \"base\" we can\'t starting spreading it to much.. And let me answer a few of your wishes..
1) The SDK will contain all this and will be expanded and updated running..
2) If I say... \"next update\" for most of them :-)
3) Sash might compile it today else you could try yourself.
Btw. I know Sash has been talking about setting everything up with CVS and stuff - so right now patience is probally is the best bet.
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Thanks Laze! This is great news!!
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I think QT branch is leaading zaurus users astride.... X11 version is in the the most admired Linux way of GUI standart development! So, if Casco team shifts their efforts on X11 and make it more open it will be real breakthrough for it. Sure the whole linux-society is after it, ready to help.
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Regards,
Vladimir c700 pdaXrom 1.0
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I think QT branch is leaading zaurus users astride.... X11 version is in the the most admired Linux way of GUI standart development! So, if Casco team shifts their efforts on X11 and make it more open it will be real breakthrough for it. Sure the whole linux-society is after it, ready to help.
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Regards,
Vladimir c700 pdaXrom 1.0
Not everyone wants that though, I think the way forward it to produce Cacko QT ROMs with X11 on it. I\'ve just gone back to Cacko QT 1.20 and X/Qt, I like to have both I can run GIMP on X, I can use Qtopia PIMs at the same time.
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I think the way forward it to produce Cacko QT ROMs with X11 on it.
I agree wholeheartedly!
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argh...
and now novell (bought ximian w/ mono, suse) says it\'s gonna standardize on qt.
Scott
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I, for one, neither need nor want the qtopia environment. I use my zaurus as a teeny tiny workstation. I develop java apps on there, run a small webserver, use nedit for editing (now I even have dia for diagramming). It makes my journey to/from work productive. I never had this with the qtopia environment.
Once again, many thanks to all concerned for enabling me to do this with something I can fit in my pocket. (I do have large pockets :-).
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im still flashing back and forth between qtopia and x every time sash releases a new rom. Ive also found that i use the qtopia rom more when i\'m on the move (planes, trains and buses) and so I am waiting for the dual boot solution to start using the pdaxrom properly. I would use xqt more, but it doesnt seem to run abiword or siagoffice and also breaks my backup/restore function. So until dual booting pdaxrom on sd comes along for the 860, i will stick with cackoqt and pocketworkstation (apt-get rules!)...
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argh...
and now novell (bought ximian w/ mono, suse) says it\'s gonna standardize on qt.
Scott
Really, where did you read that?
I\'d be interested to know what their plans are, seeing as Ximian and SuSE have always taken opposing desktop routes.
GIVE US A COMBINED ROM!!!
REBEL EVERYONE, I INCITE YOU RIOT!!
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ChrisEBoy, just for interest which JVM do you use?
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Don\'t think they are combining them, maybe SuSE for servers and Ximian for desktops...
http://www.novell.com/linux/xd2.html (http://www.novell.com/linux/xd2.html)
http://www.novell.com/linux/netware.html (http://www.novell.com/linux/netware.html)
My collegues and I have been trying to sneak linux in the back door for ages, now Novell do it for us
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ChrisEBoy, just for interest which JVM do you use?
The blackdown arm port, for compiling I use Kopi, I\'ve made a little java app that calls kopi to do compiling so the JVM isn\'t loaded each time a compile is done. It shaves a few seconds off each compile. It\'s only 1.3.1 at the moment but it\'s sufficient for now.
Hopefully they\'ll get 1.4.X ported too. I\'d love to get my hands on that :-)
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I think pdaXrom is absolutely on the right track. The QT environment is nice and simple for casual users, but lets face it, most of us are power users and want/need an X environment.
The biggest problem with the QT environment is software - there\'s precious little out there that\'s worth using. The promise of an X environment is the vast pool of high quality software that already exists.
Two things I would like to see that would make me switch over to pdaXrom permanently:
1) A complete overhaul of ipkg - I don\'t think it is robust enough to support a full blown unix distribution with the massive amount of software and dependencies out there.
2) a well designed and maintained package distribution system (I know it\'s early days, but having all packages in a single web page isn\'t going to work for long). IMHO the sucess of Debian is in it\'s package distribution system.
3) Ok, one more thing - QT application support I think this would seal the deal even for casual users.
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3) Ok, one more thing - QT application support I think this would seal the deal even for casual users.
I thought it did have QT support?
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Well, console programs, like Minicom or Links, usually work. But graphical do not.
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I thought it did have QT support?
What I meant was support for QT Embedded (ie: libqpe). In other words, the ability to run software built for the \"normal\" zaurus environment.
There\'s only one app I really need - FreeNoteQT. When I tried to run it under pdaXrom, it complained about libqpe, which of course I lost when I flashed the X11 rom. If I copy libqpe accross though, would apps which use this library run under pdaXrom??
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I thought it did have QT support?
What I meant was support for QT Embedded (ie: libqpe). In other words, the ability to run software built for the \"normal\" zaurus environment.
There\'s only one app I really need - FreeNoteQT. When I tried to run it under pdaXrom, it complained about libqpe, which of course I lost when I flashed the X11 rom. If I copy libqpe accross though, would apps which use this library run under pdaXrom??
A combined QT/X11 rom would solve that, I\'ve just spent the weekend playing with pdaXrom, I\'d love to switch but I cannot manage without Qtopia, I find Hancom Word fast and simple, it does what I need fast, Abiword is too slow and bloated, I like my video at 320x240 fullscreen, I like to be able to develop on the Z rather than on a separate machine.
Maybe one day....
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So do I gather that copying libqpe over from the original ROM (how can I get hold of it now I've changed over?) won't allow all these apps that complain about lack of libqpe to magically start working?
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Where would I like to see it go......??
I love pdaXrom, but unfortunately I can't get it to run properly so that probably answers the question. I want it to get better support with how-to's and docs
As far as my needs are concerned. It still has to be a pda so I need excellent pda type software such as an address book and diary. I also need good quality business software like spreadsheets and wordprocessors and simple databases. From this point of view KoPi and gnumeric (although I can't get it to work) are getting there, but more are needed. How about a program to read, organise and write my mobile phone numbers through the IR port.
And, of course how about printing. If the X11 programs ported to this rom support printing (as most will) then supporting printing throught the operating sustem with CUPS say should be OK shouldn't it?
An interim measure will be to use xqt (haven't got this working yet either). That way I can have the environment of the cacko rom (say) with the pda applications and the X11 apps also. Eventually, with enough apps then the pdaXrom will stand on its own (of course the other way would be to run pdaXrom that supports qtopia but you get the point)
So, I want the simple needs of pda software such as diary, address book, database, spreadsheet and wordprocessor. They must sync with the desktop software, preferably BE the same software (hence Ko/Pi etc.).
I want multimedia so that I can view my digital photos on it and keep pictures of my family stored on it (better than keeping pictures in my wallet) I want to be able to use it as a scribble pad with the screen in portrait or notebook mode. View a few short AVI's
I want comprehensive network support so that I can browse the internet, e-mail and print etc through the network.
Thats most things, but I can surely think of more if pushed. I know it is all asking too much but this is what you should be aiming for otherwise the project will fail through lack of support as M$ and Palm better provides what the average punter wants from a pda. Mainstream Linux (SuSE/Redhat etc) have only obtained appeal to the greater public because of ease of use and ease of installation and by providing a wealth of applications. If all of those applications could be ported, simply and efficiently to the pdaXrom I am sure it will flourish.
I have had to abandon the pdaXrom for now because of its defficiences but I am looking forward to re-installing it when the next one comes out. With a bit of luck and help I hope to get it working next time.
Have just donated $50 to the team to help them along. Will look in again in a few days time.