OESF Portables Forum
Model Specific Forums => Gemini PDA => Gemini PDA - General Discussion => Topic started by: ArchiMark on July 11, 2018, 11:10:53 am
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Hi fellow Geministas,
Now that I've had Gemini for more than a month and multiple re-flashes and updates behind me, I thought I'd share some general thoughts about our little pocket computer, and see if you agree or have different perspective.
The last two re-flashes have been with the recent multi-boot setup.
Currently, have it setup as follows:
1. Android Rooted
2. Recovery
3. Debian
4. Sailfish
So, in that order, here's some thoughts about each:
1. Android Rooted
Works well overall.
However, need to learn how to use Android without needing Google and signing in to apps, etc. If there's a good place online to learn about doing this, please let me know.
Disappointed in Planet's new Agenda app. Looks very nice visually, but "where's the beef?" as the old Burger King commercial said.
3. Debian
Works well overall.
However, still has a few rough edges...
No ethernet support.
I'm fine with using it with my little mini-mouse when I'm at a desk. However, would be nice if I could use it easily without a mouse when out and about, on the train, etc. Like others have said, it would be great if Gemini had a pointing device built-in. I think an optical pointer like on the Viliv N5 and UMID mBook (think it had one...) would be great. Other option is a little trackpoint like on my GPD Pocket.. Also, some mouse buttons would be helpful too, either on keyboard or if no room, on side of display or even back of display as on my old Libretto way back when.
4. Sailfish
Looks pretty......
Not sure there's much more to say about it. Definitely, feels very unfinished, at least to me.
Well, there you have it, my impressions of the various Gemini OS'es, as currently available.
Overall, think Gemini is a very nice pocketable mobile computer (I don't use it as a phone...).
Think it has a lot of promise to be much better and refined as time goes by and more updates released.
Think that Planet is clearly under-resourced and they are playing catch-up to meet all the various demands about the device.
Planet's website and Support page are very un-developed. Various things you'd expect normally are not found, like contact info, general Gemini support info besides flashing, etc.
Please don't take this post as I'm bashing Planet or the Gemini. To be very clear, I really enjoy using the Gemini now and look forward to seeing it get even better as time goes by.
If you have any comments or other thoughts on this, please feel free to share them.
OK, back to using Gemini....
Mark
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Nice post, Mark. I think your assessments are spot-on (except that Wendy's did the "Where's the beef?" )
I have the same boot setup as yours, but since I use the G as a phone, I don't play w/ Linux that much (it truly needs some kind of built-in pointer/trackpoint to work w/ the G alone) and I don't play w/ Sailfish at all since I'm more of a pkb guy than a swiper.
I'm fine with Android and I'm fatalistic about Google, so my rooted Android holds me in good stead. I'm also very optimistic about community development. Graynada's LED work has filled an important niche, this forum is a good one, and as the number of G users increase, more Android apps and better custom Linux distros are sure to follow.
Moving to a Gemini overview, I'm a little concerned about the unhappy post-ers in IGG, complaining about very late shipments, poor communication, etc. I agree with you that Planet is overstretched, but the alternative is worse, and I would hope that the grousing fades once all the shipments are fulfilled. If the problems stay in people's memories, a G2 has a steeper climb to success.
Jake
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Thanks, Jake, and for your input.
I was just testing you about the commercial....you passed!
Yes, like you, hopeful that things will continue in an upward direction over time....hope this catches more attention in the dev community out there.
Agree with you about IGG...between the whining, lack of people reading background info, so, too many unnecessary griping posts, then replies to griping/whining posts, it's hard for me to read the posts anymore since receiving my Gemini...
Again, crossing my fingers, that all will go in positive direction for Planet and in turn Gemini.....
Mark
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And another trouble w/ the IGG comment section is a missing search capability. So any kind of helpful tech, or even shipping info, is promptly buried under a deluge of complaints about flash tools and where's-my-perk.
Small wonder that PC gives it a pass. Their purported lack of response to inquiring emails is troubling, however.
Jake
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Agree about lack of search function and email responses...
Guessing that is lack of resources and being overwhelmed with processing orders, etc...
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I'm running:
1. Rooted Android (as a fallback in case things didn't work) - never even booted
2. Recovery
3. Sailfish - my daily driver
4. Debian - had a play, but with no phone/sms it is a non-starter for me unfortunately.
I'm not an android (or iOS) fan and couldn't wait to get something else. With debian unable to act as a phone, I had to wait for sailfish. To be honest, I really love it. It is a full blown linux distro, with a phone interface. It is a stopgap until the new version (3.0) is released which will have far better integration with the gemini (keyboard/screen orientation etc). The one downside is there aren't a huge number of apps - even with 2 app stores, jolla and openrepos. The plus side is that you can take most open source apps and compile (on the gemini no less) them. I have compiled imagemagick and ffmpeg, and they work well. ffplay (the video player from ffmpeg) seems to work very well, and supports more formats than either the built in one, or the openrepos videoplayer.
If I weren't worried about phone calls/sms, I would use debian. From my short play around, it seemed quite usable. I didn't try ethernet, but wifi connected straight away, and all the things I tried just worked. The only trick is that with such a small screen, a mouse is almost a requirement (as ArchiMark said). From a functionality point of view, however, it was great.
To summarise
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1. Gemini as a phone: Sailfish
2. Gemini as a micro laptop: Debian
3. If all else fails, rooted android.
PS. I would also like a search function for the IGG page
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And another trouble w/ the IGG comment section is a missing search capability. So any kind of helpful tech, or even shipping info, is promptly buried under a deluge of complaints about flash tools and where's-my-perk.
Small wonder that PC gives it a pass. Their purported lack of response to inquiring emails is troubling, however.
We know that when PC goes dark, it's because they're busy doing something in the background. I would guess that the lack of email replies has a lot to do with this investment that was mentioned in that register article recently.
I got my unit back in mid-May, sans connectivity kit so I queried it with Robin. He said he'd get one out to me. Nothing since then. No reply to my follow up this week. Would it hurt PC to set up email autoreply acknowledgements? It's a real shame because it doesn't take a lot to defuse the griping over on IGG, but PC seem not to care. Do griping comments on IGG put off potential buyers? Who knows!
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I agree with you except for one important detail: little old lady Clara Peller squaked out "Where's the beef?" in commercials for Wendy's, not Burger King.
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@vader
Thanks for your input about Sailfish...
Agree about lack of apps....that's part of what made me feel there wasn't much there, there, besides a 'pretty face'. So, good to know about option to compile apps for it.
Keep us posted on the forum as you use it more.
@jeffers
Thanks for your input...although sorry to hear about lack of response by PC to you...not good. Hope they make things right for you.
Not sure what the investment has to do with PC not responding to emails though...you'd think it would be other way round if they got more funding....ie, able to afford to hire some more bodies to assist with customers, etc.
@depscribe
Well, you passed the test too! (see posts above...)
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I have Android squeezed into a minimal partition with the rest for sailfish. I have a strong dislike for Android so if I ever get the opportunity to remove it completely then I will.
Luckily for me, Sailfish does have the apps for the purposes that I wanted from the Gemini so it is my full time OS. I agree it is a little unfinished feeling, however that is to be expected as it is really just something to bridge the gap to Sailfish 3, which I expect to be more complete on the Gemini.
I knew when I backed Gemini that it was never going to make a good phone, so I continue to use my cellphone for those purposes. I have a SIM in the Gemini for 4G/LTE data only.
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Perhaps I should first specify what set-up I used before the Gemini:
Phone: Nokia Communicator 9300i
Computer: Psion netBook
Now, whilst those two are still superior technologies, I must admit that I appreciate having been launched into the second decade of this century.
So I am fully happy with the stock Android, discovering new features every day.
On the subject of Planet: I really wish them all the best. After all: the Gemini is what I waited for since 2001. The hardware of the 5mx. But it comes with modern software. Planet really must succeed. Otherwise I am in trouble (the battery of the netBook is dying... and I would miss WhatsApp, because MSN2Go doesn't work anymore).
I am therefore very worried about their poor customer performance. I am also slightly worried about the physical longevity of the Gemini (keyboard wear, battery life, hinge, screen...). Fifteen years of faithful usage might probably no longer be expected, but is three years too much to ask ?
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Perhaps I should first specify what set-up I used before the Gemini:
Phone: Nokia Communicator 9300i
Computer: Psion netBook
Now, whilst those two are still superior technologies, I must admit that I appreciate having been launched into the second decade of this century.
So I am fully happy with the stock Android, discovering new features every day.
On the subject of Planet: I really wish them all the best. After all: the Gemini is what I waited for since 2001. The hardware of the 5mx. But it comes with modern software. Planet really must succeed. Otherwise I am in trouble (the battery of the netBook is dying... and I would miss WhatsApp, because MSN2Go doesn't work anymore).
I am therefore very worried about their poor customer performance. I am also slightly worried about the physical longevity of the Gemini (keyboard wear, battery life, hinge, screen...). Fifteen years of faithful usage might probably no longer be expected, but is three years too much to ask ?
I hear you re: longevity. The fact that mobile phone batteries are not made easily replaceable is stunning. I hope the Gemini is an exception here -- I'm expecting a device such as this to last longer than the 2 years typical phone batteries last. Sigh.
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Dixit--hold on, you're saying that until your G arrived, you were using the 9300i as your phone? In 2018?
If so, man, that is amazing. I loved my 9300, and I kicked myself for not getting the 9300i, and I still use a Psion Series 7, but you get the award for never-giving-up
Jake
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When Planet gave us the new tripple-boot-flash-possibility, I installed Android (rooted), Linux and Sailfish.
I booted Linux and Sailfish only once yet, because until now I can do everything what I need with Android .. and with some hacks it's quite good.
I've gone through the Sailfish-Intro but it's too much swiping there and too annoying (too fast, too slow, too short, too long, yeah, good bye). The Gemini has such a big screen, there would be no reason to swipe anything but the screen content (pressing a menu button is so much quicker than swiping from an unknown side inside the screen to reveal a hidden menu). Besides that I hate, hate, hate flat UIs and Sailfish looked even worse than this current Android. (Comparing to an old Kitkat-Tablet, wow, how good lucking Android was once, now everything's dull boring flat like every other "modern" OS. I hated flat UIs 25-30 years ago and will always hate that.)
Linux was always a kind of "backup" for me when I ordered my Gemini, just in case I won't like Android. (Because I was used to iPhone/iOS after .. some WinCE palmtop, after Nokia Communicator, after Psion Series 3a, ... and whenever I had an Android Phone/Tablet in my hand, I never wanted to switch to Android. But as Apple is also more and more annoying ...)
So far I'm fine with Android on my Gemini. And various emulators (Win98 and Amiga OS 3 run quite good on the Gemini).
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When Planet gave us the new tripple-boot-flash-possibility, I installed Android (rooted), Linux and Sailfish.
I booted Linux and Sailfish only once yet, because until now I can do everything what I need with Android .. and with some hacks it's quite good.
I've gone through the Sailfish-Intro but it's too much swiping there and too annoying (too fast, too slow, too short, too long, yeah, good bye). The Gemini has such a big screen, there would be no reason to swipe anything but the screen content (pressing a menu button is so much quicker than swiping from an unknown side inside the screen to reveal a hidden menu). Besides that I hate, hate, hate flat UIs and Sailfish looked even worse than this current Android. (Comparing to an old Kitkat-Tablet, wow, how good lucking Android was once, now everything's dull boring flat like every other "modern" OS. I hated flat UIs 25-30 years ago and will always hate that.)
Linux was always a kind of "backup" for me when I ordered my Gemini, just in case I won't like Android. (Because I was used to iPhone/iOS after .. some WinCE palmtop, after Nokia Communicator, after Psion Series 3a, ... and whenever I had an Android Phone/Tablet in my hand, I never wanted to switch to Android. But as Apple is also more and more annoying ...)
So far I'm fine with Android on my Gemini. And various emulators (Win98 and Amiga OS 3 run quite good on the Gemini).
Thanks for your input......
Curious about Win98 and Amiga OS 3......
What do you use to run them?
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However, need to learn how to use Android without needing Google and signing in to apps, etc. If there's a good place online to learn about doing this, please let me know.
I use lineage os on a tablet. Lineage os does not come with google apps (although you can install them), so there are no google and no google app store. I have also some experience with the same on a samsung phone.
I am not aware of a full guide, but basically what you need is f-droid: https://f-droid.org/en/ (https://f-droid.org/en/) which is a repository of free software. You will find software for the most common needs:
-browser: firefox
-mail: k9 mail
-maps: osmand (or a new one called "Maps" which is even better), and also middleware to use wifi location if you want
-chats: conversations and riot
-calendars and contacts can sync via caldav and cardav
-etc...
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I use lineage os on a tablet. Lineage os does not come with google apps (although you can install them), so there are no google and no google app store. I have also some experience with the same on a samsung phone.
Which is fine but for the fact that Lineage OS development for Gemini came to a screeching halt a couple of months ago, because they can't get the phone to work. This limits its use as a . . . phone.
And I believe the issue is not so much getting applications as eradicating the Google crap from Googledroid as it ships on Gemini. If there were a good and simple recipe for this, many of us would be glad to know about it. But there does not appear to be such a thing. And even with other OSes on Gemini, Googledroid is all wound through it like a knot of worms.
I think it's a scam that PC pulled on us, but others' views might be more charitable.
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However, need to learn how to use Android without needing Google and signing in to apps, etc. If there's a good place online to learn about doing this, please let me know.
<snip>
-maps: osmand (or a new one called "Maps" which is even better), and also middleware to use wifi location if you want
<snip>
Maps looks good. OsmAndroid allows me to add overlays to the maps - I use the OpenCycleMap overlay which shows both cycle routes and (many, most?) footpaths. I can't find a way to do that with Maps
Pete
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Curious about Win98 and Amiga OS 3......
Amiga is just for fun and a "cool it works" (yet), still fiddling with the correct settings to boot my old hardfile ..
Win98 is mainly for Office 97 (yet), as I wanted to use my Skiing - MS Access Database. So instead of adding entries later at home or finding another way of syncing data (or using another database which runs on Android), I can add the daily entries (date, ski resort, time start/stop, price of the ski pass) and view all statistics directly on the gemini while skiing (100+ days per year).
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And I believe the issue is not so much getting applications as eradicating the Google crap from Googledroid as it ships on Gemini. If there were a good and simple recipe for this, many of us would be glad to know about it. But there does not appear to be such a thing.
That is my main issue with the Gemini as well. In its present state, I won't really use it. I expected lineage OS to be available reasonably fast, but it seems it won't be. Is there anything that could be done to get things moving?
And even with other OSes on Gemini, Googledroid is all wound through it like a knot of worms.
I have some hopes with debian. We'll see.
I think it's a scam that PC pulled on us, but others' views might be more charitable.
I suppose that google has a firm grip on manufacturers to get them to install their complete suite of application on all their phones.
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I imagine that a lot of Gemini users are holding out for the Sailfish 3 release at the moment. If you want a device without Googledroid, purism is making that phone, but it doesn't come with a nice keyboard.
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Copied from Planet's Indiegogo Comments page:
Posted by @philip cross
4 days ago
finally got linux onto my gemini, what a fucking joke, no wifi and i can`t set it up either, my fingers are too big for the touchscreen, i can`t select the options needed to make it work, basically it`s so rubbish that i will have to reflash the device to android only and stick to my laptop for linux, thank you planet computer for designing a great device with useless software to run on it, same problem as apple and i got rid on my apple products, time to sell and learn from this experience.
Reply from Planet Computers
Campaigner
22 hours ago
Phillip, there are tons of ways to make use of the Gemini's design under Linux. Please email us at hello @ planetcom.co.uk, we can assist you with your enquirers, and we can help you to install an app store that is optimized for this screen size. You can run an enormous library of desktop-class applications right from your PDA that fits in your pocket. -E
----------------------
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I imagine that a lot of Gemini users are holding out for the Sailfish 3 release at the moment.
What is so great about Sailfish? This is an honest question: I still have a jolla phone hanging around, so I tried sailfish when it was available. The OS is certainly nice, but privacy is as poor as on standard android.
If you want a device without Googledroid, purism is making that phone, but it doesn't come with a nice keyboard.
People who do not want to be spied on by google usually install lineage OS without gapps on a supported phone. That does the job, but there is indeed no keyboard on recent phones.
As I already said, I expected the same from gemini, but it did not happen. Alternatively, I would be content if gemini would issue their standard distribution without google apps and libraries.
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<snip>
People who do not want to be spied on by google usually install lineage OS without gapps on a supported phone. That does the job, but there is indeed no keyboard on recent phones.
As I already said, I expected the same from gemini, but it did not happen. Alternatively, I would be content if gemini would issue their standard distribution without google apps and libraries.
</snip>
Or go to the 'Privacy' settings in your Google account (https://myaccount.google.com/privacy) and use the activity controls to disable the spying.
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Ok, I read a few of the previous posts and though I should reply. I don't use debian, primarily due to there being no working phone stack at the moment. I have booted it several time - namely when I have broken sailfish trying to be too cute. It was mentioned that wifi didn't work - well it did for me. Immediately it detected available networks, I selected one, entered the passphrase and voila working wifi. Maybe there is a wifi issue, but I can't see it..... As far as having a small gui - um, 6 inch screen anyone? It is a full desktop GUI displayed on the small, but high resolution screen. Add an hdmi monitor and you wouldn't realise you weren't on a PC. On the small screen it is somewhat difficult, but as it has no phone stack, this is a laptop not a phone. Get a mouse.
I use sailfish, and have since PC released the sailfish image. It is definitely more secure/private than android. The only google bits it uses are the phone stack, and graphics drivers - both unlikely to give away your information. The one thing sailfish lacks is apps, however it still has enough for most people. Messaging (email/sms etc) trounces android. As it is straight linux underneath, you can do pretty much anything you can under debian except change the main gui. Well you probably could, but I haven't.
Sailfish 2.1.x isn't perfect by a long way, however I enjoy it far more than android. When sailfish 3 is released, I believe it will be the perfect Gemini OS - the updates already announced for the Gemini in 3.x will make sailfish very Gemini friendly.
Anyway, I just get a bit annoyed when people complain about things which don't seem to either be a problem, or are obvious. The Gemini is far from perfect, I agree, but it is better than anything else I have.
(Step off soap box, put on asbestos underwear, light the blue touch paper and wait...)
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(Step off soap box, put on asbestos underwear, light the blue touch paper and wait...)
You said most of it for me Vader, I'm agreed with you.
The great thing about Sailfish is that it is not Android. It is a real linux with a small screen phone interface. Not a dumbed down leechOS. I have made several attempts to get on with Android when the new iterations appeared, each time I hoped it would be better. But I found it and continue to find it intolerably irritating.
Thank goodness for Sailfish on the Gemini. I look forward to V3.
As for some people complaining about the Gemini, there will always be some where their expectations are not met, it's just not possible to please everybody and when there are thousands of devices out there, there will inevitably be a few who don't like it. Just like I absolutely detest and abhor Android. Luckily Gemini owners that don't like it are few.
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I've never tried Sailfish but want to, when v3 ist ready.
If I have a binary file for x86 / x64 it is not possible to compile it on a Sailfish Gemini isn't it? I would like to use Typora on a Gemini... https://abnerlee.github.io/typora/2015/03/11/why-typora/ (https://abnerlee.github.io/typora/2015/03/11/why-typora/)
Overheated greetings from Germany
asti
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I've never tried Sailfish but want to, when v3 ist ready.
If I have a binary file for x86 / x64 it is not possible to compile it on a Sailfish Gemini isn't it? I would like to use Typora on a Gemini... https://abnerlee.github.io/typora/2015/03/11/why-typora/ (https://abnerlee.github.io/typora/2015/03/11/why-typora/)
Compiling on sailfish is easy, provided the libraries exist. I checked out typora and it looks great. There might be a bit of a porting effort and/or adding a qml interface. I might check it out and see if I can get it working.
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Compiling on sailfish is easy, provided the libraries exist. I checked out typora and it looks great. There might be a bit of a porting effort and/or adding a qml interface. I might check it out and see if I can get it working.
That sounds really super! Thank you!
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you should be able to get ethernet working in debian if you install the mygnu modular kernel