OESF Portables Forum
Model Specific Forums => Gemini PDA => Gemini PDA - Android => Topic started by: bloblo on August 06, 2018, 02:01:51 pm
-
Has there been any word on the progress of Android 8, or Android P actually since that one is around the corner? I haven't ordered a Gemini yet and it worries me a little it's still stuck on Android 7, and all I've found on the internet is "well we would like to see Android 8 but have no estimate" - that seems worrisome for a completely new phone of this price range. I hope putting all those resources into Linux, the partitioner and other niche experiments won't distract the company too much from keeping Android up-to-date??
-
Has there been any word on the progress of Android 8, or Android P actually since that one is around the corner? I haven't ordered a Gemini yet and it worries me a little it's still stuck on Android 7, and all I've found on the internet is "well we would like to see Android 8 but have no estimate" - that seems worrisome for a completely new phone of this price range. I hope putting all those resources into Linux, the partitioner and other niche experiments won't distract the company too much from keeping Android up-to-date??
it has little to do with planet computers and more to do with mediatech not making drivers for 8 or 9
-
Well, planet computers did pick the chipset, and this sounds exactly like the situation with Fairfone (who also picked Mediatek for the Fairfone 1). Why should people buy a device for this price if the chipset is already end of life at the time of release? Surely, this is something that could have been cleared with Mediatek in advance and isn't some sort of unanticipated, sudden surprise?
-
Hello,
(...) it worries me a little it's still stuck on Android 7(...)
Well, if you're so keen about not only running after the "latest" stuff, but even after "coming" stuff, why don't you switch to iOS and chase the allways latest-bestest-modernest IPhone?
Sorry for the sarcasm, but I really don't understand those "worries". Why is this a problem for you? In my opinion this is complaining on a high level. Do you actually know what to do with the latest and coming stuff?
I have tablets running Android 4.4, and until a few months ago I even ran a Smartphone with Android 2.1. The tablets I am still using on a daily basis, and they work perfectly.
Ask yourself what you actually want to do and what tasks you are going to use the device for. If it fits your needs, fine, if not, you have to move on. But actually, I'm afraid that if you decide that Android 7 (for instance) isn't good enough for you, I see you running after something not existing but assumingly "perfect" for ever. So again, what do you expect Android 8 to do for you that Android 7 can't?
And finally I'd like to point out that many Gemini users (and fans) are people who until recently were still using a Psion 5 (mx) or even a Psion 3a with great success, and those are gadgets from the 90s and 2000s ;-)
Kind regards
-
To be fair to the OP, you have the issue of security with outdated Android installs. That's the main reason why I'd want to see Android 8 on Gemini. It's not about the features, it's about the security.
-
Well, if you're so keen about not only running after the "latest" stuff
Sue me for wanting a 700 bucks device to be up-to-date and secure at least for the first 1-2 years. (and no, I don't care about the latest features. but history has shown that outdated major Android versions will accelerate the ending of any sort of timely security patches greatly.) Also, isn't Android 8 the version that introduces Project Treble / modular drivers? That makes it an even more significant upgrade, since Android 8 could open the door to potentially a quite lengthy, decade long upgrade path if Planet Computer properly figures out a modularized build. So being stuck just one major version before that is making a major difference for the longterm outlook.
This forum post by the way seems to suggest mediatek isn't even planning to do any android 8 x27 chipset port: http://community.umidigi.com/thread-12561-34-1.html (http://community.umidigi.com/thread-12561-34-1.html) I'm really not impatient for an Android 8 upgrade, instead I'm simply worried it is unlikely to happen at all. And so far, planet computer hasn't said anything other than "we really want it to happen" which doesn't exactly inspire confidence...
-
Sue me for wanting a 700 bucks device to be up-to-date and secure at least for the first 1-2 years.
Hear hear! But, alas, this is how the mobile industry is right now, disposable everything! Even my 8 year old thinkpad running debian will likely be more secure than my gemini in a few year's time!
-
Gemini is the third or fourth kickstarter / indegogo project I've backed. Every one seems to end up abandon-ware after initial release. I had hoped Planet would be different, but I have finally learned my lesson. Shame too because I think this is by far the best hardware device in similar category.
-
I had hoped Planet would be different
I wonder if there are any official folks in this forum? If yes, can we maybe get more details than "we're looking into it"? Anything, really anything would be nice, e.g. "we're waiting for Mediatek to figure out their schedule" or whatever, really. More than just hollow words that you're supposedly trying to make it happen...
-
To be fair to the OP, you have the issue of security with outdated Android installs. That's the main reason why I'd want to see Android 8 on Gemini. It's not about the features, it's about the security.
We have to remember that security for older versions (to a limit) is maintained buy updates to system apps not just by updating the next version. Many very high end phones are still in 7 and may not make it to 8 at all but Google know this and it is not in there interest to let a security flaw go unpatched on a version that is probably serving over 50% of the devices out there. 8 will be on a tiny proportion of devices at the moment (my WileyFox got it this week and they are usually early adopters compared to others) and if we get it we get it. We knew we were buying 7, 8 would be a bonus. My hope would be for a solid Lineage option as this would enable us to an option to keep up to the latest version if we choose to.
-
Many very high end phones are still in 7 and may not make it to 8 at all but Google know this
Of course they do, for now. But Android 7 updates will definitely end considerably earlier than, e.g., Android 9. So being stuck on that older version from the start has a definite and direct impact on how long the device will be usable, if you care about any sort of basic security. It is also really unusual for a device at this price point - at least flagship Android devices usually get a decent start at up-to-date Android versions and because of that, a longer life than the average super cheap budget phone. That's why this sucks, because the Gemini is in a price range where one would expect different support
My hope would be for a solid Lineage option as this would enable us to an option to keep up to the latest version if we choose to.
This is extremely unlikely if Planet Computers can't make it happen. Why? Because Mediatek is the most likely culprit - and their stupidly closed-source device drivers. Android 8 has a completely different (and way better, much more easily upgradeable) driver model with Project Treble, so unless Mediatek can be convinced to provide those, neither Planet Computers nor LineageOS will be able to do anything about Android 8+. That is also why Planet Computers not speaking up clearly about this kind of sucks, because it would be really, really interesting to hear what Mediatek told them. Because other internet sources indicate Mediatek is not planning to support Android 8+ for the x27 chipset...
-
I feel like Mediatek is taking the x27 as EOL. It came out around 2015/16 which is old in hardware life these days. And it has received two software updates from Android M to N. Or they could be having a hard time converting to the new Oreo Treble requirements. But there are at least two groups working on other MT6797 devices and getting Oreo and Treble working. I'm holding off on buying a Gemini until either Mediatek releases something - drivers or Oreo SDK, or if someone gets an Oreo Treble port running decent. But i think even with a port, the modem and graphics will never work right.
Fingers crossed that the Gemini PDA 2 has a Qualcomm SOC.
-
Has there been any word on the progress of Android 8, or Android P actually since that one is around the corner? I haven't ordered a Gemini yet and it worries me a little it's still stuck on Android 7, and all I've found on the internet is "well we would like to see Android 8 but have no estimate" - that seems worrisome for a completely new phone of this price range. I hope putting all those resources into Linux, the partitioner and other niche experiments won't distract the company too much from keeping Android up-to-date??
If Jolla gets Sailfish 3 working right on the Gemini with Android app support, then Android 8 becomes far less relevant.
https://blog.jolla.com/gemini/ (https://blog.jolla.com/gemini/)
According to that their plan is to have Sailfish 3 up for sale for the Gemini by the end of the year.
-
I ordered the Gemini in February 2018 (with my birthday money).
A few days later my wife purchased a mid class Huawei. Of course she got it right in her hands - one-day delivery at Coolblue.
The Huawei
- runs Android 8
- was ordered in February and received in February
- is EUR 350 cheaper and came with its accessories (I am STILL waiting on the ones for the Gemini)
So she finds the whole project rather laughable.
Whilst I read the above story, I think she is right.
-
To be fair to the OP, you have the issue of security with outdated Android installs. That's the main reason why I'd want to see Android 8 on Gemini. It's not about the features, it's about the security.
I am no expert on this but in my experience there is a difference between "new release" and "security" - My Samsung phone was originally Android 5. After a few months It got Android 6 over the air (with a constant nagging to upgrade to A6). - I continue to get updates to A6, these have no new functionality so I assume bug fixes and security patches, few months even though there is no push to Android 7 - presumably because the phone hardware can not support it? My husband has same phone purchased about 6 months after mine - it came with A6 when new and gets updates.
I am not really bothered about Android 8 - to me the real question is how long there will be security updates to A7 (if at all!) - There are perhaps two factors influincing it
1 - How long Google provide them
2 - How long Planet are prepared to "implement" and "push" them?
Other views particularly from Planet welcome
-
I am no expert on this but
You're just reiterating my point. Google will definitely not provide updates for Android 7 as long as Android 9. It's that simple. No need to talk around it. Shipping with an outdated android right from the start simply shortens the life of a device, if you care about security. (and as a special case, a proper Android 8 Treble build would in contrast extremely increase it, even if Planet Computers dropped support at some point - since it should make a really longterm-maintained custom ROM release much easier)
-
I am no expert on this but
You're just reiterating my point. Google will definitely not provide updates for Android 7 as long as Android 9. It's that simple. No need to talk around it. Shipping with an outdated android right from the start simply shortens the life of a device, if you care about security. (and as a special case, a proper Android 8 Treble build would in contrast extremely increase it, even if Planet Computers dropped support at some point - since it should make a really longterm-maintained custom ROM release much easier)
They will and they do. They know the difficulties manufacturers have moving some let alone all of their devices across to a new version of Android. As I said before it is not in Google's interest for there to be a security issue left unpatched in the wild for any Android version. Loss of confidence in the security of a product is so easy achieve and difficult to regain and would have knock effects for years. Android 7 will continue to receive updates for a long while yet. I bought my Gemini expecting 7 with no guarantees of 8,much like I would have done from any other manufacturer so if I get 8 it will be a bonus (unless of course I don't like the new features) otherwise I'm very confident 7 will serve me well for the avarage 2 years I use a device.
-
Here's an editorial from Ars Technica that is unsparingly critical of Google's abysmal history of keeping Android patched:
Waiting for Android’s inevitable security Armageddon: Android's update strategy doesn't scale, and that's recipe for disaster. (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/08/waiting-for-androids-inevitable-security-armageddon/)
The context of the article was one in which less than three percent of Android handsets would receive a crucial security update to fix a critical bug. Yes, the editorial was written three years ago, but the situation is almost as bad today. Indeed, Computerworld contributing editor JR Raphael recently lamented (https://www.computerworld.com/article/3285170/mobile-wireless/blackberry-android-upgrade.html) BlackBerry's misleading claims about the Android security of its flagship phones. Regarding the lackadaisical update situation on both the KeyOne and Key2, Raphael wrote,
[blockquote]"Even if you set aside the feature additions and interface improvements introduced with most major Android releases, operating system updates contain a significant number of foundational fixes and security-oriented enhancements — things like the tightened-down APIs . . . strengthened backup data encryption, and emphasis on steering apps toward secure web transmissions included in the upcoming Android P update."[/blockquote]
The manifest lack of proper support for Android was a major factor in my decision not to buy the current Gemini PDA. If the Gemini 2.0 has similar shortcomings, I'll likely look elsewhere.
Best regards,
Brian
-
Well I think i'll go ahead and order mines now. I actually found new MT6797 devices with Oreo from the factory so ports should be easy with file swapping or an official Oreo for the Gemini may be coming soon. Then mainline support is picking up pace. Most of us are using old devices for years. We want something that is either perfect or that we can maintain ourselves.
-
The Huawei
- runs Android 8
- was ordered in February and received in February
- is EUR 350 cheaper and came with its accessories (I am STILL waiting on the ones for the Gemini)
- has no built-in keyboard I think? So a completely unfair comparison.
Some months before I pre-ordered the Gemini, I pre-ordered the Red Hydrogen (shipping is now said to be in October). More than twice as expensive and of course completely different to the Gemini, but if we want another unfair comparision, the Gemini is a bargain then ;-)
Every update I did on my iPhone made thinks worse, I stopped updating a long time ago and regretted every time I installed one. So I think I will absolutely have no problems with not having a newer version of Android on my Gemini.
-
When the Gemini was first discovered to be Mediatek based I nearly groaned out loud, I knew it would become a significant pain point.
The key thing we need is a good kernel, ideally with source so we can rebuild it and patch it. Unfortunately we know Mediatek are serial GPL violators and even if they do release source it might not match the kernel binaries.
In my experience their code is low quality and can't be used with a modern kernel - I stupidly bought an 802.11ac Wi-Fi adaptor that claimed Linux compatibility, but their driver was for an ancient kernel, and attempting to compile it gave so many warnings I had to turn them all off in gcc! That adaptor has sat gathering dust in a drawer for most of its life
And yet I still bought a Gemini. Fortunately Google Play Services is a core part of android which can be upgraded along with most system apps. We can also unlock the bootloader and abuse root to hack the system if needed.
That all said, yes, I want to see a plan to move to Android P. I too want security updates, new features, more modular system, newer kernel etc.
I hope Planet continue to make sales so that they gave the revenue stream to be able to afford to do this.
-
They will and they do.
What? I think you may have skipped over some of the words I wrote. Why would you ever assume an older Android version would get the same length of updates as a newer one? If that was the case, Google would still be shipping Android security updates for Android 2 today. (Newsflash: they aren't)
-
They will and they do.
What? Did you even read what I said? Why would you assume an older Android version would get the same length of updates as a newer one? If that was the case, Google would still be shipping Android security updates for Android 2 today. (Newsflash: they aren't)
I obviously didn't mean for all Android versions but they do for 7 which is obviously the area of our concern.
-
I obviously didn't mean for all Android versions but they do for 7 which is obviously the area of our concern.
Do what for 7? Ship as many updates in the future for as long as Android 9 gets them? I highly doubt it, and unless you have a statement from Google that confirms those plans, I would go as far as to say that is nonsense. (and even then I wouldn't be convinced Google actually follows through with it. There's a reason the software world moves on, and I'm pretty sure Android 9 already has new security hardening features today that won't be backported)
-
I obviously didn't mean for all Android versions but they do for 7 which is obviously the area of our concern.
Do what for 7? Ship as many updates in the future for as long as Android 9 gets them? I highly doubt it, and unless you have a statement from Google that confirms those plans, I would go as far as to say that is nonsense. (and even then I wouldn't be convinced Google actually follows through with it. There's a reason the software world moves on, and I'm pretty sure Android 9 already has new security hardening features today that won't be backported)
No obviously there will be a point where security updates continue for 9 ,and 10 and 11 and maybe even 12 at that point and stop for 7 but within the lifetime of this machine (2 years on average I would suggest) I would predict we will be fine.
BTW I have 8 on my WileyFox and I'm finding it a bit of a pain. The settings menu seems way less intuitive and it's not playing nicely with dual SIM.
-
You're going to throw away a 700 bucks device after 2 years? For a flagship-priced device, two years is about the barely acceptable minimum for patch support, not actually good or expected. That is literally the entire point of this thread. Being possibly stuck on an outdated Android right at launch is really not good or anything we ought not to complain about, and I think you should stop pretending it is - or that it wouldn't have any notable impact on the lifetime of the device, because it will. We can argue about how big exactly it is gonna be with nobody being able to predict that, but the fact is that it will make years of difference, whether you like it or not. (And I don't like it)
-
You're going to throw away a 700 bucks device after 2 years? For a flagship-priced device, two years is about the barely acceptable minimum for patch support, not actually good or expected. That is literally the entire point of this thread. Being possibly stuck on an outdated Android right at launch is really not good or anything we ought not to complain about, and I think you should stop pretending it is - or that it wouldn't have any notable impact on the lifetime of the device, because it will. We can argue about how big exactly it is gonna be with nobody being able to predict that, but the fact is that it will make years of difference, whether you like it or not. (And I don't like it)
I,'ve never had a phone for more than 2 years and i'm not sure I know anyone who does. When I bought this device it was advertised as coming with Android 7 with no promise to upgrade it therefore when I parted with my $500 I had made my choice I was happy with the fact that I have no guarantees of getting 8. I personally don't see I have anything to complain about, it was all upfront.
The question of this thread is will we get 8? Maybe, but I don't think any of us know for certain that we will. But we got what we were promised.
-
I,'ve never had a phone for more than 2 years and i'm not sure I know anyone who does. When I bought this device it was advertised as coming with Android 7 with no promise to upgrade it therefore when I parted with my $500 I had made my choice I was happy with the fact that I have no guarantees of getting 8. I personally don't see I have anything to complain about, it was all upfront.
The question of this thread is will we get 8? Maybe, but I don't think any of us know for certain that we will. But we got what we were promised.
Well, I've been using the Nokia Communicators since Nokia 9500 (and then E90 and E7...)*, and people here have been reporting that they have been using Psion 5MX as their "DEVICE" until getting the Gemini, so a lot of people here have obviously been using their phone/devices for more than 2 years...
So even though I might agree that 2 years is usual for the "lifetime" of a phone, that might be wrong in the case for the average Gemini owner. So wanting support/update for more than 2 years would be essential (or at least desirable) for many Gemini owners...
* (I also, prior to the Nokia 9500, used a Psion 5MX until the cable broke, and was connecting it with the "workhorse" Nokia 6310i (which would last for WEEKS without needing charge...) through infrared, to get internet on it...)
-
This is why several reviews go like this:
"Mediocre phone with mid-level specs for a flagship price. OS outdated before actual delivery started.
Oh... and it has a keyboard."
True... we knew it beforehand.
-
This is why several reviews go like this:
"Mediocre phone with mid-level specs for a flagship price. OS outdated before actual delivery started.
Oh... and it has a keyboard."
True... we knew it beforehand.
Right. I'm mainly unhappy that Planet Computers still pretends they're working on it while refusing to give out any details which just seems a little shady. I'd rather have them say upfront if it's not going to happen - also, they haven't given out a single info of what Mediatek actually told them (which I would suspect is the most vital info on whether anything is going to happen at all regarding Android 8 or not).
-
I'd like to appeal to people to calm down please.
-
I'd like to appeal to people to calm down please.
Calm is a good plan.
Back to the topic at hand. I would say Planet are trying to get Android 8 working and they announced on Indiegogo (no less) that they would be releasing a 4.4 kernel. 4.4 is the minimum kernel support needed for Android 8 and newer, so if they successfully port the kernel to a newer version happy days. That seems like hard work to me, but Planet Computers seem willing to put the effort in.
-
I'd like to appeal to people to calm down please.
Calm is a good plan.
Back to the topic at hand. I would say Planet are trying to get Android 8 working and they announced on Indiegogo (no less) that they would be releasing a 4.4 kernel. 4.4 is the minimum kernel support needed for Android 8 and newer, so if they successfully port the kernel to a newer version happy days. That seems like hard work to me, but Planet Computers seem willing to put the effort in.
--------------QUESTIONS-----------------
Can that kernel update be patched into existing Geminis?
If yes, will that kernel update also fix / update the old and worrisome Nov. 2017 Android Security patch to either the latest patch or close to it?
What might be a reasonable ETA for release of that kernel update?
Cheers!
Ifanafi
-
All those speculations... Nobody contacted Planet? I did it for you (and myself)
While we are hoping to release an Android 8 update and we're quite positive this will happen, the support team is in no position to discuss this. As far as I am aware, Android 8.0 is already available for our chipsets with working drivers. It is only a matter of time for it to be modified accordingly and released for the Gemini's form factor.
Sit back and relax. It will probably happen. We all know Planet is not good at communicating with it's customers, as we noticed during the crowdfund. Why should we expect to change that after they delivered?
-
All those speculations... Nobody contacted Planet? I did it for you (and myself)
great move, I'm glad someone decided to try the obvious
-
I saw this earlier today: https://techtablets.com/2018/09/chuwi-hi9-p...hipad-launched/ (https://techtablets.com/2018/09/chuwi-hi9-plus-chuwi-hipad-launched/)
"Chuwi Hi9 Plus & Chuwi HiPad Launched with MediaTek Helio X27 CPUs" ... "The Chuwi HiPad comes with Android 8.0 Oreo out of the box"
It would be useful to know what kernel version it comes with.
It might be good news, because it means that Oreo runs on the same CPU/GPU as the Gemini.
-
On October 5th we all received update #63.
It clearly states that Android 7.1.1 will be out very soon and that Android 8 Oreo Cookie is also under development. There even is a screenshot.
This gives some confidence - I was happy with this update.
-
This is the advantage of Gemini - when Android will go EOL, you may have a possibility to install Linux. It could be that by that time the LineageOS or SailifisOS are also an option. The lifetime of 2 years is a deadly pace, what is worse the phones and the Android is getting only one year period. I used to have all the phones and computers 5+ years, i can not imagine to switch the phone every year or two just because there is a new model with more camera lenses. This is insane consumption - it costs a lot of time and also the electro-junk that is produced by this... I used the HP Jornada 720 for 6 years when it was already 5 years old when I bought it used (Jornada 720 (http://www.lowlevel.cz/log/cats/english/Running%20Linux%20on%20HP%20Jornada%20720.html). I waited from that time for something like Gemini and choosen it because it seems to aim for more than those 2y time frame that all the "top" smartphones live. Just remember - it is upon us to develop it further, as it was upon us to fund the initial development.
-
it seems to aim for more than those 2y time frame that all the "top" smartphones live.
Unless they are from Apple. The latest iOS still supports the 5s, which is 5 years old.
But: yes, you are right. Android phones seem to be supported for 2-3 years max and often a lot less. Lineage extends that a bit (I am still using a Samsung tablet which was orphaned by its manufacturer right after I bought it thanks to Lineage).