OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: rikiya on April 26, 2004, 06:05:16 pm
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As I said before the Zaurus SL-C860 has raised it\'s price up by about 5000 yen which used to be 68000 yen (store price) and now it\'s up to about 73000yen (store price) Everyone\'s buying the SL-C860 nowadays that they pushed the price up... maybe a bit more time until the next model (they usually lower the price before new model)
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Depending on how you look at it, it\'s good news. I think :?
It\'s bad if you were about to buy one though!
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￥65,961 at www.amazon.co.jp.
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When I bought my IBM PC-110 Palmtop (Intel x86 33 MHz 486, 640x480) about 6 years ago, IBM then stopped making them and the price skyrocketed. I was actually able to sell my used (with broken speaker) PC-110 1 year later for a little more than what I bought it for!
These gadgets often come and then disappear rapidly. Maybe they know something we don\'t... maybe they\'re going to pull the SL-C860?
HP 200LX (640x200), IBM PC110 (640x480), Toshiba Librettos (640x480), Sony Vaio Picturebooks (the small ones 1024x480)... all of these existed for about 2 years and then vanished... and their makers never came out with replacement products that were nearly as small. Remember the Seiko TV Watches, or how about the Seiko Ruputer watch (4 MHz, 4 MB computer watch with 102x64 pixel screen, buttons and a mini joystick)?
Maybe SL-C860 is next? I\'m glad I got mine when I did...
What does everyone else think? Should we be concerned that the clam-shell 640x480 Zaurus\'s might be going away? The IBM PC110 had a 640x480 VGA screen, and when it disappeared there wasn\'t anything in the market with clam-shell VGA (that small) until the Zaurus SL-C7x0s came out... It\'s as if companies don\'t want to completely commit to clam-shell VGA screens...
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Wow www.amazon.co.jp used to have it at 68000 yen too but they lowered it... my info was from www.biccamera.com which is Japan\'s leading electronics store.
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Also at the www.biccamera.com site they ahve a weekly top 5 product list and in the PDA section they have SL-C860 as the top #1
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When I bought my IBM PC-110 Palmtop (Intel x86 33 MHz 486, 640x480) about 6 years ago, IBM then stopped making them and the price skyrocketed. I was actually able to sell my used (with broken speaker) PC-110 1 year later for a little more than what I bought it for!
These gadgets often come and then disappear rapidly. Maybe they know something we don\'t... maybe they\'re going to pull the SL-C860?
HP 200LX (640x200), IBM PC110 (640x480), Toshiba Librettos (640x480), Sony Vaio Picturebooks (the small ones 1024x480)... all of these existed for about 2 years and then vanished... and their makers never came out with replacement products that were nearly as small. Remember the Seiko TV Watches, or how about the Seiko Ruputer watch (4 MHz, 4 MB computer watch with 102x64 pixel screen, buttons and a mini joystick)?
Maybe SL-C860 is next? I\'m glad I got mine when I did...
What does everyone else think? Should we be concerned that the clam-shell 640x480 Zaurus\'s might be going away? The IBM PC110 had a 640x480 VGA screen, and when it disappeared there wasn\'t anything in the market with clam-shell VGA (that small) until the Zaurus SL-C7x0s came out... It\'s as if companies don\'t want to completely commit to clam-shell VGA screens...
I just got mine a few weeks ago and I am glad I did (due to new price). I doubt it\'s going away, but I guess it is possible...My bet is that demand is way outstripping supply (in Japan) and the other units are not getting much attention, it may very well be a move to change the price point to make the lower model more attractive while Sharp can ramp up production for the C860. If the the 7x00s are sitting on shelves and the C860 is backordered often, Sharp must know thay aren\'t raking in the dought they could be....so rather than drop the 7X00 price, they raise the C860...so no matter what the consumers do (buy a 7 series or wat for the 8 series) Sharp still makes out better than they are now.
Lets face it, these puppies aren\'t cheap, so once you\'re in at over $500-$600, it hard to justify going for the lower model...I mean after all that, what\'s another $50 to $100 more?
And even if I am wrong and it is discontinued (which would be a shame) I am still thrilled to have one .... this thing ROCKS....it is everything great about the 5500 with the addition of double the horspower, 4 times the resolutions, a kick ass keyboard/screen and great compaitibility with all the old sharp accessories (adaptors, batteries, software, etc).
The waeket thing about the Zaurus is Sharp itself...they are high-handed and treat their community with disdain....just take a look at dev-net...oh nevermind, you can\'t :wink:
My dream come true would be for a better marketing company to step in and buy the exclusive US rights to market and support the C860. Done right this would be in the hands of every SA in the US (or India, if outsourcing doesn\'t slow the heck down )
just my 2(0) cents..
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Especially with rival (peer?) products like the yopy
in uk a top of the range yopy with wi-fi is £332.25
http://www.yopypda.co.uk/shop/products.php...aq40365a8baab25 (http://www.yopypda.co.uk/shop/products.php?sec=Yopy+Product+Range&cat=YP+3700+Series&entry=0&proid=raq40365a8baab25)
a c860 is £480.85
http://www.shirtpocket.co.uk/ (http://www.shirtpocket.co.uk/)
Thats a big difference in price and spec wise the yopy has 128 meg ram and as soon as i move into \"workstation\" functionality its memory that ends up hurting me with my 5600.
Well hopefully the extra competition will show Sharp that linux pdas are a viable consumer electronic product in the uk and get them to buck up their customer services.
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Yopy looks interesting, but it is 1/4th the resolution, 1/2 the speed, and larger (I think?)... that\'s enough to turn me off to the idea. VGA is very important for me to play natively compile (or emulated) VGA games and for remote controlling other computers.
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hard to compare against a c860 as yopy is a portrait pda style, but clam shell. compared to a 5600 its not longer when its folded, but it seems that it is fatter, i was poking at one in the linux dev expo the other day, i wanted a demo but the sales bloke was too sales pitchy for my liking. i was itching to flip it open a la star trek style, but i would have prbly sent the screen flying. the processor is a good point and memory wise if u dont mind burning out external storage (unless it is a micro drive) then u could activate a swap file...
for me the two main specs for a pda is size and battery specs, the yopy 3700 has a bigger battery 2300mah compared to my 5600\'s 1700. i pouted when i found that out, but then again i don\'t think of my 5600 as a pda so these points don\'t count...
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try
http://www.hightech-co.jp/ (http://www.hightech-co.jp/)
Then click on the \"PDA\" option near the bottom of the list on the left side.
They have the 860 for 57,015 yen plus shipping. Thats where I got mine.
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As I said before the Zaurus SL-C860 has raised it\'s price up by about 5000 yen which used to be 68000 yen (store price) and now it\'s up to about 73000yen (store price) Everyone\'s buying the SL-C860 nowadays that they pushed the price up... maybe a bit more time until the next model (they usually lower the price before new model)
Actually if you are looking at Japanese store prices (or web store prices) then you must also be aware that as of 1 April 2004 all Japanese stores changed from displaying price before to tax to displaying price including tax.
This means that all displayed prices rise by 5%, but what the buyer actually pays stays the same.
Stu
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For anyone who cares. I was asked about how to order from hightech in Japan. Here is the information
You can email Kawada (his name) at home@hightech-co.jp
He can converse in English (although for my initial contact I translated everything to Japanese using babelfish). He was excellent to deal with. Very friendly and forthcoming. When he shipped it, he emailed a copy of all the documentation including the shipping receipt so that I could track the shipment myself.
You should ask the current price with shipping and everything, the shipping for mine through the EMS shipping company was 7600 yen - so add that to the price. Also, he does not take credit cards. He will want a wire transfer which will cost another $20 or $30 bucks or so at your bank. After all that you will still have to count on whatever tax and / or duty you will have to pay to get it into the country.
After everything, it was still way cheaper for me to go this route.
Note though that I didn\'t get any of the warrantees that you might get from some of the online stores. In my case, since I live in Canada, I figured I was buying from another country anyway, so I might as well go to the source.
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I wish we could purchase from Amazon Japan and have it ship to the USA. Their current price is low enough, and translates to about US$590.
HighTechCo\'s price translates to $516, but not as easy to purchase as Amazon.
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There could be a shift in models soon, the 6000 has just come out and that didn\'t affect my C860, but the Z ain\'t going anywhere, remember in Japan the Z is an established brandname for the last decade, it\'s only recently the Z has been receiving so much attention because of the move to Linux OS. My first Z was black and more of a personal organiser. Look at some Japanese sites at the older machines, these have an almost cult status, I\'ve seen firms that even do custom paint jobs (no not on the Linux ones)
I\'ve played with a Yopy, 1. it\'s very very old news :roll:, 2. it\'s no Z :roll: and 3. I was vexed by it within seconds :evil:, not for me. My former 5500 was better, and it doesn\'t compare to a mouthwatering C series machine.
Z models will come and go but it is an established brand, we\'ll see Sony\'s Clie brand go first ;-) And even so, so what? It\'s just hardware, software will still be there, I got almost 10 years from my HP 200LX, no worries, that\'s why I made the investment in the Z to start with. :-)
Chill my fellow Zaurites, relish in thy Z\'s
;-)
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I wasn\'t saying that Zauruses might disappear... I was talking specifically about the VGA Clamshell models. Usually those stick around for 2-3 years and then disappear.
VGA (and, for the most part (Exception: HP and a few others), Clam Shell) isn\'t something companies tend to make long term commitments to. That\'s why the C7x0 and C860 aren\'t yet sold in the USA. Many americans (unfortunately) don\'t like the tiny keyboard and would prefer none at all over having a small one... and many people don\'t like the small 640x480 VGA screen.
I personally love that stuff... but the market isn\'t there, which is why the companies don\'t commit to them. I wouldn\'t cound on the SL-Cxx0 VGA Clamshell models hanging around for long.
Usually each company takes a stab at it once. IBM did it with the PC110, which was gone in 3 years. HP did it with the HP 100LX and 200LX (The still have half VGA, but the devices are HUGE) which was gone in 3 years. Toshiba did it with Libretto (which was HUGE) which kept getting larger and larger and was gone in about 3 years. ...And Sharp is making the VGA Zauruses... which I\'m thinking will only be around for a total of 2-3 years.
Buy them while you can...
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I think the reason why the Yopy, and others, don\'t appeal is that we don\'t really want a PDA at all, we want a pocket sized Unix workstation. That means high res screen, keyboard, expandability, etc. The more high-end the better. The Sl-6000 and Cxxx models come closer to fulfilling this desire than anything else currently available.
VGA is finally here to stay however. Microsoft has proved this by (finally) adding it to the latest PocketPC OS. Even clamshell might make a mass market comeback, although it will probably be x86 compatible when it does.
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I sure hope you\'re right!
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Microsoft has proved this by (finally) adding it to the latest PocketPC OS. Even clamshell might make a mass market comeback, although it will probably be x86 compatible when it does.
x86 compatibility for Linux users isn\'t really an issue if you can compile code.
As for that PocketPC thing, I take comfort from an article I read about a month ago (I\'ll have to look for it again) where Microsofts co-founder was quizzed about the future of PocketPC, to which he replied \"what future?\"
Nuff said.
That\'s why the C7x0 and C860 aren\'t yet sold in the USA. Many americans (unfortunately) don\'t like the tiny keyboard and would prefer none at all over having a small one...
mmh, but not all of us are American, eh? ;-) It\'s a bit rich to assume everything is done to please America. Maybe Japanese and European hands are smaller than American ones, maybe using a special wand would help. :-) These were made for the Japanese market, not the American. I personally waited a decade for this machine.
BTW I was answering the original posting, sorry if I did not make that clear.
Usually each company takes a stab at it once. IBM did it with the PC110, which was gone in 3 years. HP did it with the HP 100LX and 200LX (The still have half VGA, but the devices are HUGE) which was gone in 3 years. Toshiba did it with Libretto (which was HUGE) which kept getting larger and larger and was gone in about 3 years. ...And Sharp is making the VGA Zauruses... which I\'m thinking will only be around for a total of 2-3 years.
How do you define HUGE? If it can fit in a coat pocket, it\'s pocket sized. The Atari Portfolio - that was huge-ish. But as an owner of both HP95LX and HP200LX, these are not big machines, a laptop is HUGE, not a palmtop. Also you miss one critical point, no matter how long they are run-off at a factory, the usability is much longer - 10 years for my 200LX, I know solicitors and doctors using Psions 10 years on. If it ain\'t broke don\'t fix it.
Back on topic...
The price increase on the C860 is nothing to worry about at all.. unless you\'re about to buy one.
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x86 compatibility for Linux users isn\'t really an issue if you can compile code.
That\'s part of the problem. Some applications were built for x86 and don\'t have source code available (or open-source counterparts). It\'s good to have at least an x86 emulator available (still trying to find ANYONE who has installed Bochs on a VGA Zaurus).
mmh, but not all of us are American, eh? It\'s a bit rich to assume everything is done to please America. Maybe Japanese and European hands are smaller than American ones, maybe using a special wand would help. These were made for the Japanese market, not the American. I personally waited a decade for this machine.
I know that... but I was refering to why these products don\'t last in America long. I have a personal vested interest in the availability of these gadgets in America since I happen to live here. :wink: I personally can\'t speak for why it doesn\'t come to other countries because I have little experience there, which is why I was only talking about America.
How do you define HUGE?
Sorry, to me PDAs and handhelds are huge if they don\'t fit in your pocket.
I hope I\'m wrong abut this, but if the VGA Clamshell Zauruses stay on the market for longer than 3 years it\'ll be the first time in history a PDA has done that. Here\'s hoping that VGA clamshells will be around forever.
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Mmmm I don\'t think that it will be such a problem if the Sharp Clamshell extinct cause they\'re probably gonna sell they\'re technology and stuff to different companies which will make it like a z....? not really making sense but so what... I might be wrong but come reasons the z isn\'t in the U.S. is that shipping will be costy, and one thing sharp made is a decision. They picked to make all their products in Japan since they used to make things in china and korea and finally bring it back to japan but that was a problem. From the high tech. of sharp the other countries that were making them will sneak out some and steal the tech... The z might not extinct at all cause eveyone loves them in Japan!
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I hope I\'m wrong abut this, but if the VGA Clamshell Zauruses stay on the market for longer than 3 years it\'ll be the first time in history a PDA has done that. Here\'s hoping that VGA clamshells will be around forever.
:shock:
_Atari portfolio, the first one, live for more than 4 years.
_HP95LX, HP100LX, HP200LX, HP1000LX, then a lot of other HP model using PPC but with the clamshells design too (HP320, ...?), then the HP680, HP710, HP720, HP728. More than 10 years of evolution (and I still have my HP200 and it works great). Those HP device was killed by the press who were saying that it was heavy and that their keyboard wasn\'t as confortable as a PC keyboard (do you remember when HP released a jocke: an annimation annoncement with a big unfoldable keyboard that was opening on top of a small pda?)
_ Psion S3, S3a, S3c, S3mx, Siena, S5, S5mx, Révo, Révo+, Diamond Mako, netBook, Ericsson 618c. More than 10 years of evolution.
_ Nokia communicator series: 6 years.
And I don\'t talk about the Sharp pda with closed source OS. So be continued ...
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I hope I\'m wrong abut this, but if the VGA Clamshell Zauruses stay on the market for longer than 3 years it\'ll be the first time in history a PDA has done that. Here\'s hoping that VGA clamshells will be around forever.
:shock:
_Atari portfolio, the first one, live for more than 4 years.
_HP95LX, HP100LX, HP200LX, HP1000LX, then a lot of other HP model using PPC but with the clamshells design too (HP320, ...?), then the HP680, HP710, HP720, HP728. More than 10 years of evolution (and I still have my HP200 and it works great). Those HP device was killed by the press who were saying that it was heavy and that their keyboard wasn\'t as confortable as a PC keyboard (do you remember when HP released a jocke: an annimation annoncement with a big unfoldable keyboard that was opening on top of a small pda?)
_ Psion S3, S3a, S3c, S3mx, Siena, S5, S5mx, Révo, Révo+, Diamond Mako, netBook, Ericsson 618c. More than 10 years of evolution.
_ Nokia communicator series: 6 years.
And I don\'t talk about the Sharp pda with closed source OS. So be continued ...
Well, I thought hell would freeze over before I agreed with amrein, but.....
I agree with amrein on this one. ;-)
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_Atari portfolio, the first one, live for more than 4 years.
Wasn\'t VGA. I\'m talking about pocket sized VGA (or half VGA) clamshells.
_HP95LX, HP100LX, HP200LX, HP1000LX, then a lot of other HP model using PPC but with the clamshells design too (HP320, ...?), then the HP680, HP710, HP720, HP728. More than 10 years of evolution (and I still have my HP200 and it works great). Those HP device was killed by the press who were saying that it was heavy and that their keyboard wasn\'t as confortable as a PC keyboard (do you remember when HP released a jocke: an annimation annoncement with a big unfoldable keyboard that was opening on top of a small pda?)
Like I said, the HP PDAs after the 200LX were \"Huge\", meaning non-pocket-sized. The 95LX wasn\'t VGA or half VGA. The 100LX, 200LX, and 1000LX span about 3 years.
_ Psion S3, S3a, S3c, S3mx, Siena, S5, S5mx, Révo, Révo+, Diamond Mako, netBook, Ericsson 618c. More than 10 years of evolution.
I don\'t know much about these. Were they VGA/half VGA? Do they qualify.
_ Nokia communicator series: 6 years.
I didn\'t think this was VGA/half VGA either. :roll:
The point I brought up was the companies haven\'t been making longterm commitments to VGA clamshell pocket-size devices. It is usually about 3 years.
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Hi Tony,
I think I know what you are trying to say, but I\'m not too sure what the point of it is. In the last year or so Sharp have produced the C700, C750, C760, C860 and 6000 all with CG Silicon screens, is that going to continue? Yes, most likely. Why? Because this is a proprietary screen technology, plus, there is little chance in them downgrading displays. Will Americans like it or want to buy it? Not relevant really, these are mainly a Japanese product. Is higher definition PDA screens the way forward? Yes.
Now, pointing out other machines from the last decade, you omit some factors, the lack for the most part of proprietary screen technologies plus the cost of producing them. Libretto, NetBook and other VGA screens were costly to produce and were larger, it\'s only in recent years the cost effectiveness of colour screens has been conducive to producing them. Mono screens for PDA use is declining. In a similar way, VGA resolution screens will eventually replace QVGA 320x240 screens, they will get cheaper.
This 3 year thing, are you referring to production span, availability or usability? I think the fact that a decade on, we still have VGA or half-VGA screens, clamshells etc. shows that these type of machines are still popular and are needed for those who require more than a simple PDA or personal organiser.
I have got my elderly HP200LX out, bless her, not huge. It fits in the pocket. The question is, what kind of pocket? Jeans? No. Trousers/Shirt pocket? I don\'t wear those kind of clothes regularly, but a 860 fits a shirt pocket so I\'m told. Would get crushed eventually anyway, I know Palm and iPaq users who have mashed theirs. :twisted: LOL!
Also I don\'t mean to be negative, because I am always brimming with joy, but this should probably be a new thread, because the subject has strayed off rikya\'s original observation. ;-)
BTW 3 years for a profit making corporation is a long time. :-)
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This 3 year thing, are you referring to production span, availability or usability?
I was refering to availability. I agree that things will eventually move to VGA screens permanently. Is that time now? I hope so, but I\'m not counting on it. There may be a few more in-production / out-of-production wobbles before it gets permanently adopted. ...but here\'s hoping.