OESF Portables Forum
Everything Else => Sharp Zaurus => Model Specific Forums => Distros, Development, and Model Specific Forums => Archived Forums => 5x00 Hardware => Topic started by: tweakt on May 17, 2004, 04:42:19 pm
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I\'m a seasoned Linux guy looking to get into Zaurus hacking. I plan on running kismet, with an 802.11b card, GPS, web browsing, simple remote access (ssh?), serial console. In short, there\'s many applications I\'d like to try out, so my main use would be as a general purpose pocket-sized laptop, with *some* PIM usage (basic contacts/calandering but I\'m sure I\'ll find other uses).
My question is two-fold. First of all, from purely a value standpoint, is the 5600 worth it? I see a lot of people happy with thier 5500\'s. Will I notice the 400Mhz? What things, if any, will I not be able to do with a 5500? I\'ve heard battery life is dramatically better, is it that extreme? What are people\'s opinion on the difference in RAM? Does that have a noticeable impact on anything?
And secondly: development/hacking. Is the 5600 as supported? How large is the user base? Are the custom roms, compilers (gcc?), being worked on for the 5600, or will I be blazing my own trail so to speak? It seems like it hasn\'t caught on as much with the community, it\'s not even mentioned in the FAQ :-(
I get the sense the 5600\'s are hard to find, didn\'t sell as well and are being largely overshadowed by the C-series.
Hopefully some of you can provide me a little insight... thanks ;-)
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I\'m a Zaurus newbie with a bit of Linux experience. I just bought a 5600 and am very happy with it, but most of your fears are probably founded- the 5500 has a larger userbase, is more supported, and the units themselves are cheaper. Battery life is criticized on the 5500 but I believe there are solutions to that also.
On the speed front, if you do go for a 5600 make sure you get one with a PXA255 processor. The PXA250 fitted to most 5600s has a bug. The workaround for the bug means from the factory it runs at half speed. Given that half the memory is flash rather than dynamic, this means that in some situations a PXA250 processor equipped 5600 is actually slower than a 5500. The PXA255 fixes the bug and means you get the speed benefit. Having said all that, if you do end up with a 5600 with a PXA250, it\'s not the end of the world: thanks to the users on this forum there are special kernels that bypass the bugfix and give you the full 400Mhz. The tradeoff is potential instability, although I haven\'t had any problems with mine. With the CPU running at 400Mhz you will almost certainly notice the speed increase over the 5500, not that the 5500 is slow.
At the end of the day the 5600 is a great machine, but I think the smart money goes on the 5500 and some sort of extended battery solution. If you\'re really rolling in it then go for the 6000 which has VGA, a decent battery, built in WiFi on some models, and a bright future (hopefully).
People who actually know what they are talking about will be along shortly
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If you are serious about the wi-fi, I\'d go with the 5600. I only have a 5500, but the battery is small. I get about 50 minutes of usage when running 802.11b. If you don\'t mind an external battery extender, then that\'s one solution.
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Memory... with the 5500 and one of the kernels with a 64-0 memory split (e.g. Crow like) you have the trade off of running with your filesystem on an SD card but you do have the full 64Mb to run programs in.
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Sorry, I guess this is sort of a dupe since I just found this post:
http://www.zaurususergroup.com/index.php?n...iewtopic&t=3108 (https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3108)
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After having read thru this whole post, I have one nagging question. Which one is the best? I am damn sick and tired of \'almost there\'.
I would like to know I have a computer in my hand, not an experimental platform that requires hacking, like it or not, to get it working. A lot of you guys are far superior to me in asfar as computer know how is concerned. That being said, I gotta say the man asked a question, and left me and maybe him, wondering. which one is the best? For his purposes and for that matter the \'everyday\' guy that just needs a working unit. The reason IBM gets the dough tehy do for the 6000, is it comes ready to go, no BS. For the money, seems like the best bargain.
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Any of the Zaurii (I speculate) will do \"out of the box\" every bit as much as a Palm or PPC. The problem is, that\'s not much. It\'s in the extension of functionality that the \"hacking\" comes in. Most Zaurus users (at least here at ZUG) either like hacking because they are tinkerers by nature, or are willing to put up with hacking because it\'s better to have a solution that requires a little \"fine tuning\" than one that allows no tuning at all (PPC)...
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The 5600 is deffinitely the best! Does that answer the question?
Of course, I might feel differently if I owned another model! ;-)
In mmy opinion, there\'s not enough of a difference from the user\'s viewpoint to decide which is better between the 5500 and 5600.
The simple reasons I bought the 5600 are:
Much bigger battery.
Newer, including the software.
Supposedly a better screen(? I have no idea if true)
And who knew it would be discontinued weeks after I bought it?
Faster processor (maybe?)
I would undoubtedly be just as hapy with a 5500 as everything I do with mine, people do with 5500\'s.
I have yet to find a Z program written for the 5500 that I can\'t run. I\'m sure there are some out there someplace?
The simple solution is: buy one and be happy with what you have. With the help I\'ve received here, we\'ve gotten roadmap to work just fine, slrn (thank you!!!) and many other programs. So far there is nothing I want to do with my Z that I haven\'t been able to. But I\'m still searching ;-)
The only thing I haven\'t done is run another kernel. I just don\'t see any reason to. The Sharp kernel does everything I want, never crashes and works just fine...
As far as being a \"PDA\", I think the Z is the best I\'ve ever seen and I use it as one. As far as the Z being a computer, it is and works great and I use it as one. Although using it as a VNC viewer to control my dekstop machines may not be in the category of \'computer\'? I don\'t know. But it does a few other computerish things too ;-)
Now if the 6000 would just be discontinued so I could afford one of those.....
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Ok. I\'ve come to the conclusion the processor will not make too HUGE a difference in what I\'d like to use it for. And while the amount of working RAM is an issue, it seems like I\'d be fine there with either
That leaves battery life, and price.
If the battery life is truly double on the 5600 that would be a large influence on my decision. Some questions around that however: Is the extra battery life only a result of the larger battery or, is the 5600 more energy efficient? The reason I ask is, for certain applications, running wireless, I may likely be running with an external battery pack anyhow. So if they both draw the same power, in theory they would both be equal when running on an external pack.
Also, in the battery life tests I\'ve heard, the test is based on continuous use with the light on. How useable is it with the screen off, obviously it\'s not needed outdoors, how about indoors under normal room lighting? And how much does running wireless degrade performance? As much as the backlight? More?
And finally, it may ultimately come down to availability. Supplies of 5600\'s seem scarce. eBay currently has only 4 listed. I\'m not willing to pay more than $250 (not including accessories). The limited supply tends to drive up the price. Some auctions with several days left already have 10 or 20 bids. Is there anywhere else I should check for a good deal?
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I\'m happy with the 5600 I have, although the only thing I don\'t like is no really working OZ yet (but that\'s coming along).
On the battery life, I\'ve had it running on wireless for a while (Linksys WCF12), about... 30-40 minutes straight with only dropping down to about 75%. The battery life is definatly very nice. On the battery I have it set for the lowest light level, but not off (since the screen is hard to see in the complete dark, unless you\'re in a very well lit area).
On the processor, the Special Kernel v1.3 is very nice for changing that. You get the full CPU power plus a bit extra. It can be overclocked up to 471Mhz, which is more than my main desktop.
On the RAM, although you can\'t run with 64MB of pure RAM, the 32 is adequate, and if you need more, you can use a (slightly) slower swap file, but if you just use the browser and have one other application open, the RAM is fine (for my usage, anyways).
The price may be a problem, but I can\'t really suggest much to help you on that point, sorry.
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Hmm, interesting, so comparing with cgrieves\' post earlier...
that would seem to suggest the 5600 has almost 4x the battery life while running Wifi? ( 45min -] empty vs. 30-40min -] 75%).
And that also suggests over 2-1/2hrs with a wireless card running on the 5600? Wow... that IS impressive. :shock: I might not even need the external pack for the stuff I have planned.
Well then, I guess if I can be patient enough to score one for $250, then I\'ll end up with a 5600... guess I\'ll see how long I can hold out :roll:
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tweakt, two good options for the 5500 that I\'m using that may address your concerns:
1) Get a 2nd battery on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...ssPageName=WDVW (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15029&item=5700364967&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)
They can often be had for ~ $15 + shipping, which is VERY nice for these LION batteries. It\'s not as good as the 5600 battery, but with two you should be in good shape and will know very accurately when you\'re half done
Also, you can get car chargers on eBay for VERY cheap for the zaurus - around $8 IIRC.
2) Get a SD card and use derekp\'s home-on-sd:
derekp created a script that allows you to operate off of an SD card and rely on the RAM for memory/swap. I use it with tkcROM 2.0-alpha3 and I\'m able to have lots of stuff open/operating at once (bluetooth connection, 5-6 opera windows, music) with no hiccup. Since using this, my memory probs have completely disappeared.
Since you can grab a 256MB SD card ~ $40 (buy.com, ecost), this is a very cost effective solution IMO.
I still use my 5500 regularly for PIMs, browsing via bluetooth, reading articles, email, etc. It\'s fine and I rarely use the backup battery, but that\'s probably due to the chargers that I also keep handy.
On top of great compatibility and lower price, I hope that helps you deal with the drawbacks of the 5500. Good luck!
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I would imagine that you would get slightly less than double the run time in an exact like for like test.
I would also imagine (can\'t test it as I have never seen an sl5600, nor I am I likely too as they don\'t sell them in the UK) that they draw similar power from the battery.
The battery monitor is very poor at detecting voltage levels and (like the fuel guage on my car) report full for a long time, than drop to 75% briefly, then say \"Please recharge the battery\" very shortly after.
Basically if you get 1 hours use out of your battery you would expect it to show 9(something)% after about 10mins, not 100% as both my Zauri show after 20mins usage.
My 5500 has a 960mah battery my c760 has a 1700 mah and I believe the 5600 has the same battery as my c760. I get slighlty less than double the usage on my c760.
It also depends on how much power your cf wireless card uses as they are not all the same.
A battery extender using 4 1800mah 1.2v AA ni-mh batteries can be built very easily for £2 + about £5 for the batteries. This gives me approx 2 full re-charges on my 5500 or allows me to run it nearly all day continually (without wi-fi), you can also build them using \'C\' and \'D\' cells (bigger, heavier and more expensive! but give you *many* re-charges).
You can also build one using 8 AA ni-mh batteries 4*4 in parralel, or use an RC-car battery and a regulator, or buy a custom 5v battery pack designed for a camcorder, or use a car-charger, or use a usb charger from a pc, or use a solar panel, or use one of the funky phone one time recharger packs (expensive), or ...... The possibilities are enless if you have the imagination and either a basic understanding of electronics or the willingness to learn.
Battery power is only an issue if you can\'t be botherd to explore the many other sources, or just want it to work without any fiddling/extra cost/extra wires etc.
They are both very good machines, you have to prioritise the pro\'s/cons yourslef based on you and your expected usage from the device.
If money was no object, then you will want to upgrade very quickly, but I suspect if that was the case you would not be asking this question in the first place.
Also, most of the \"seasoned hackers\" who can afford it have allready upgraded to either the sl6000, or the cxx0 series (at a guess the cxx0 wins at the moment, but this may change as the sl6000 is still very new).
The cxx0 series came out at about the same time as the 5600 and was much harder to obtain for the us/europeans but somehow got a working oz install before the 5600 did, and the pdaxrom. Also the 5500 still has new releases of kernel/roms released fairly regularly from the community.
In terms of already developed apps, the 5500 had the bigger user base because the 5600 was not percieved as a big enough improvement to warrant an upgrade ( and was only released in America, where as the 5500 was almost worldwide).
Having said that the vast majority of software will run on the 5600, but low level stuff like rom upgrades won\'t
Your wish list will work fine on either model, but your wish list may change somewhat once you get more familiar with the device.
I would not have bothererd typing all this if you had just wanted a pda, but I get the impression that you will want more out of it as your knowledge and experience grows.
They are both good machines, you have to prioritise what you *most* want out of it before you make that decision, then expect it to change once you own one :wink:
From What I gather they are both now largely discontinued and only available from selected places.
I have probably confused you even more now, but if you have anymore questions, then ask away.
Peter
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I have probably confused you even more now, but if you have anymore questions, then ask away.
No.... that was actually VERY helpful. Thank you!
After thinking it over a bit more.... for the money, the 5500 is the right choice for me. And I\'ll know soon enough after using it for a bit if I need more. I can always upgrade later (probably to a 6000 when they\'re cheaper).
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No.... that was actually VERY helpful. Thank you!
After thinking it over a bit more.... for the money, the 5500 is the right choice for me. And I\'ll know soon enough after using it for a bit if I need more. I can always upgrade later (probably to a 6000 when they\'re cheaper).
I waited 10 years for a handheld (palmtop?) to have the specs of a Zaurus before I dipped my toe in the water.
To run Doom fullscreen, on a pda, was totally awe inspiring! and you can do this on a 5500! but it does run sideways.
But once bitten twice shy, as they say. I manged to last a whole 5 months before buying a c760, but I am firmly of the clamshell brigade and eagerly await the much anticipated c960.
To *mis*quote George Orwell, \"Landscape good, Portrait bad\"
Your mileage may vary!
Peter
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I would also imagine (can\'t test it as I have never seen an sl5600, nor I am I likely too as they don\'t sell them in the UK) that they draw similar power from the battery.
The XScale ARM CPU in the 5600 is less power hungry than the StrongARM CPU in the 5500 (albeit not a huge different) and the 5600\'s frontlight is more efficient too. My 5500 screen at 100% brightness is as bright as my 5600 screen at only 75% brightness and with the huge 5600 battery I can keep my 5600 on 100% brightness all day. I could never do that with my 5500.
(BTW I think Expansys sell the 5600 in the UK now)
The battery monitor is very poor at detecting voltage levels and (like the fuel guage on my car) report full for a long time, than drop to 75% briefly, then say \"Please recharge the battery\" very shortly after.
Basically if you get 1 hours use out of your battery you would expect it to show 9(something)% after about 10mins, not 100% as both my Zauri show after 20mins usage.
They fixed that on the 5600. The changes in the battery meter are definitely much more evenly spread on my 5600 than on my 5500, which as you say suddenly drops from 75% to low battery.
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(BTW I think Expansys sell the 5600 in the UK now)
My god you are right!!! sadly they quote £318 + delivery which I make to be £324.35 ($572.59 according to todays exchange rate), when I paid £390 for my 760 in January this year ( I forget what the £-]$ exchange rate was then) including delivery/tax/everything. But at least you can buy one officialy in the UK now, which is a first!!!!!
They didn\'t sell them one month ago as I checked! I was hoping they where going to sell the clamshells like they promissed back in June 2003 with the c700, the web page is still there.
http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=SL-C700 (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=SL-C700)
Yes I pre-ordered one, and I am still awaiting the email to say they have them in stock, nearly a year later now! And of course I no longer want/need it.
Tumnus, just curious, where did you get yours as you were an early adopter of the 5600 if I remember correctly.
What did you pay for it and where from?
By the way, I paid £160 (inc delivery) for my 5500 from a seller on ebay in the US in June 2003 when I could have still bought a brand new one from Empire Direct (cheap electrical re-seller in the UK) for £250, and I have never looked back.
Thanks for the feedback on the sl5600 models power usage. what is the mah rating of the battery? if it is 1700mah then It is no-where near double that of the 5500 battery so the lower power utilisation is unlikely to make that much difference.
PS, if money was no object would you buy a cl860 or an sl6000 or would you keep the 5600?
Also if money was an object and you had to choose between the 5500 and the 5600, which would you buy, judging the current price difference today?
An honest answer would be appreciated as most people on this forum ( including myself) highly value your opinion!
I know I am playing devils advocate but curious minds and all that jazz....... I have never owned a 5600 and probably never will, am I talking bollocks, have I offended you in any way ( I hope not! ) .
Did sharp make a huge mistake by releasing the sl5600 in the US when they should have released the c750/60 , or even the c700 .
I really hate to do this, but I feel I have to ask for the bennifit of others who have to make this decision now!
Peter
(who is definately running into the corner to hide)
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Tumnus, just curious, where did you get yours as you were an early adopter of the 5600 if I remember correctly.
What did you pay for it and where from?
Actually I won my 5600 in the ZUG Documentation Contest back in October last year. You can probably search for the news about it still on the front page.
Thanks for the feedback on the sl5600 models power usage. what is the mah rating of the battery? if it is 1700mah then It is no-where near double that of the 5500 battery so the lower power utilisation is unlikely to make that much difference.
The 5600 battery is 1700mAh, but the 5500 battery is only 950mAh, so it is approaching double the battery capacity and with the extra improvments in the hardware I think it does equate to about double the battery life.
PS, if money was no object would you buy a cl860 or an sl6000 or would you keep the 5600?
That\'s a hard one. Keyboard isn\'t that much of an issue to me because I only use it for short notes, so the 5x00 thumb board is still great (and still much better than any handwriting recognition IMHO). Since I view PDFs and Word docs in meetings a lot as well as surf the web, the VGA screen of the C860 or 6000 would be fantastic. I\'m not too sure about the clamshell design either. I think a clamshell is more for someone who wants a laptop replacement/extension. The 5x00/6000 design is more for someone who wants a device to carry documents and data around (including PIM info). I fall into the latter category and like to be able to pull my 5600 out of my pocket, turn it on, look at an appointment or address all with one hand. That would be very awkward with a clamshell. So I would lean towards the 6000, but the size is a little disconcerting to me as the 5600 is the maximum I would like, even though I have huge pockets in most of my trousers (lots of cargo pants like a true gadget freak ). It would definitely be nice to have WiFi and Bluetooth builtin, freeing up the CF slot and not having to worry about drivers and compatibility. I also play a lot of games on my 5600, but not the emulators that use lanscape. I have several EON Games apps that can\'t really be played on a c860 because they often require the D-Pad in portrait mode.
My Ideal Zaurus would be a C860 with builtin WiFi and Bluetooth, transflective screen, vibrating alarm with the ability to set the alarm to vibrate or silent for a timed period, builtin mic, D-Pad next to the screen (which would duplicate the arrow and space keys) so portrait games can be played easily, and some nifty design such that you could leave it in portrait mode in your pocket without having to worry about damaging the touchscreen.
But until they improve the software I don\'t think I\'ll be buying another Zaurus (oh and I need a big pay rise too ), not that I am switching to any other PDA. Sharp seriously needs to sort out the sync and PIM data format issues to fix it once for all. It really can\'t be that hard to use open standards for this and add basic features like snooze and exceptions to the Calendar surely? Yes there is Ko/PI and various ways of copying data around and merging it, but at the end of the day this is only causing more fragmentation in the community. Even with a Linux PDA the power users and hackers are still in the minority IME, so most people will stick with what Sharp supplies.
Also if money was an object and you had to choose between the 5500 and the 5600, which would you buy, judging the current price difference today?
The 5600 may seem expensive on Expansys when converting to dollars, but so does every other electronic item in the UK, including the 5500 still on sale on Expansys. I\'d have to say the price difference on Expansys or Amazon.com isn\'t that much and because the builtin extra battery life is so useful and as is the builtin speaker and mic and other improvements, I would go with the 5600. The 400MHz CPU also handles playing movies and some games better than the 5500 too. Plus I like the fact that you\'ll never lose your data because of a flat battery (yes Home on SD is nice if you can get a SD card the Zaurus likes but I like things to work as they came) and the internal storage is compressed. I would not have gone for the 5600 at its original price though.
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Well, nobody asked, but I\'ll offer my opinion on that too ;-)
If the 6000 (or clamshell) came down to $300, I would buy one in a heartbeat and be very happy. I may be a programmer, but I\'m not overly fond of technology. I would dump $300 into a bellows for a 100 year old large format camera long before I would buy another $300 \"PDA\"...
I think the smartest thing Sharp could do would be to keep the 5600 in production at the $300 level. For most of us, that\'s a lot of money for a \"PDA\", but close enough that people would be tempted to buy one. That would get them into the linux arena and maybe \'upgrade\' later to a 6000 or clamshell model.
I bought my 5600 about 6 months ago and love it. Use it every single day for just about everything it is capable of doing, although I have yet to install gcc on it (need a bigger sd card). But I would never spend $600 on a \"PDA\" or handheld computer. That\'s getting too close to the cost of a very capable laptop that would do for me much more.
I am either lucky or plain dumb as I don\'t seem to have any of the problems most people complain about. I easily synch to my Lotus Organiser and run all the software I need, all with Sharp\'s ROM. My complaints about the 5600 are so minor I can\'t even remember any at the moment! Okay, maybe the text editir not being able to create scripts, but that was easily fixed...
The 6000 may be an incredible machine, but it\'s just too expensive for most of us. I see no reason why Sharp couldn\'t keep a less expensive model, like the 5600, to get people interested in their products. After all, you can buy a palm type pda for less than $100 and that does get people hooked on using one! And I would hope the 5600 stays around for a while just in case mine breaks! I would hate to be left with no replacement after all I have invested in it...
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I remember you winning it now
Very interesting comments from both of you, thanks for taking the time to reply..
Had the cl700 appeared as promissed last year, I would probably still have it now. I personaly didn\'t think the difference between the 5500 and the 5600 warranted the extra price and love the clamshell form factor.
I may have been tempted with the sl6000 if they were officially released over here and I didn\'t have a clamshell, mainly due to the difficulty in obtaining it and hardware support being so tricky.
I may also be keeping the cl760 for some time now as I have decided to blow my bonus/tax rebate on a big bike
I think 1200cc should be big enough to get my zaurus doing 0-]60 in just under three seconds, not quite as fast as the emperors way of propelling handheld devices, but more fun.
Peter
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ZX12, Bandit or XJR? I\'ve had my Bandit 12 for years now....
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Bandit 1200, allthough I am toying with getting the 600 for a few months first just till I get back into it (6 years since I last had a bike).
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Nah, I wouldn\'t bother with the 600 if you really want the 12. Most 600 users upgrade pretty quicly to the 12. The 6 is a great bike but the 12 isn\'t a lot more expensive to buy or insure (mine is £130 fully comp and I\'m 33). And although the 12 will happily nut you in the face with the top yoke, if you treat the throttle with respect it\'s a complete pussycat. Also go for the pre 2K model as it\'s much more tunable (10-15 bhp extra with just an end-can, and no rejetting required).
Drop us a line on corin.grieves@nospam@dds.co.uk if you want more info, or join SUKBOG (Suzuki UK Bandit Owner\'s Group) at www.sukbog.co.uk.
Apologies for the threadjack!