OESF Portables Forum
Model Specific Forums => Sharp Zaurus => Zaurus - pdaXrom => Topic started by: Laze on June 07, 2004, 06:44:18 am
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We are currently working on the next release of the pdaXrom and we are having some dicussions regarding default GUI/panel/window manager etc.
We are currently leaning towards ROX and maybe fbpanel or mb-panel. We could also stay with matchbox as it seems to be the best PDA gui.
So we thought we would ask you guys about your oppion. What do you think makes the best/fastest flexible combination of \"panels, windows managers\" etc. to make the default GUI? Please write you details and explain why you like it and if it feels fast and good etc. Amd no i don\'t wan\'t to create a poll - and please don\'t start a poll on wheter i should start a poll or not :-)
Bonus question:
We are currently talking about replacing all the \"built-in\" prefs/settings programs with python+pygtk - how do you feel about that?
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I just hope you guys could make a port for the 6000.
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hi Laze,
matchbox seems a much better fit than ROX, rox took up way too much memory and gave little in return for use on a pda.
matchbox is minimal and fast enough. short of refreshing the clock on it, I don\'t see much room for improvement on a small device. It\'s a good fit for the Z.
If the pref\'s program is python (or something else) this should allow for easier hotfixes or enhancements that wouldn\'t require an ipkg for it. If people want to tailor it gives a good place for it too. The main benefit I would see is that you can pull all settings into a common look and feel, and easily add to all of them.
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I like matchbox, and i would say with the matchbox window manager as i end up using the apps in fullscreen anyhow.
Matchbox is designed for pda which is important to me. (It is usable with the keyboard only or with the stylus only)
Also matchbox is small, so if someone wants to install something else, less storage is wasted.
ROX with mb-panel is not such a good idea as there is currently no way to switch between apps without the keyboard.
(well, i have small applet for this but i didn\'t tested a lot, and tested it only on pc, and have no time to work on this...)
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Do not install any window manager by default. Put all of them into optional ipkgs. Space is precious, and it\'s so annoying to manually get rid of the unwanted stuff.
If you must install install a default wm, I recommend ratpoison. Definitely do not choose matchbox/openbox until the horrible hide-taskbar bug is fixed.
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Zazz - we are planing on making two different \"rom\" downloads:
1. Normal ROM with matchbox and some usefull preinstalled util (all installed as IPKs so they can be removed if you don\'t wan\'t some or all of them). This is thought for normal users
2. Expert ROM with only kernel/term and no GUI and preinstalled IPKs
Sound ok to you. Our thought with the new system is that nothing should be \"impossible\" to remove.
And just for the record: Im not doing much programming (except some of the new python stuff and all web related activities)
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I agree with zazz.
I haven\'t tried it yet, but I\'ll proably play with xcfe + goodies under the next release.
The only thing I miss from rox was being able to put icons on the screen. I *really* like that ability.
With the current openbox, it\'s not bad -- \'cept the \"active tasks\" section seems to update/lock the beast so getting out
of that section is difficult (you tap the back, it doesn\'t work, so you tap tap tap... ig back, but then selects the next section after you go
back... etc).
Ya, I believe xcfe doesn\'t allow icons on the desktop either... :-/ dunno.
I also need/want single keystroke virtual workspace switching... like where the ` key is now,
use the two japanese keys to be \"back one virt\" and \"forward one virt\" ... with a default of like 8 virts (I have 6 now).
I\'m also interested in python, pyqt, etc... but that\'s not the question asked :-]
Basically, like with zazz, perhaps install the \"smallest\" footprint window manager that just has a default screen with a link to ipks
for other window managers -- openbox, rox, xcfe, e, etc. That way, people still can get X and an xterm... but nothing that they
will have to unconfigure. Base apps can still be installed and lauched via a shell (menu?) ...
I figure, if you\'re not going to have xdm running by default and just have the console login -- you might as well let people
decide what they want for X. If you\'re gonna run an xdm like login, then you might want a slightly more configured system,
but I\'d still limit it to just a basic window manager -- with an initial xterm + shell menu (to install other wms or launch apps).
Scott
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I use rox with mb-panel and am very happy.
I generally work from keyboard (apart from when browsing). I like being able to see multiple windows.
I don\'t like the tab-based-PDA-style GUI (the categories seem pretty arbitrary to me and I never bothered to find out if/how to change them).
For me the mini-laptop feel of the X11 Rom is one of its biggest attractions (together with the nice SDK).
If the community is divided on this (as it seems to be), then I would go with Zazz\'s suggestion of offering optional WMs, with none as default.
BTW thanks for asking for views on this!
m
(c760, 256SD)
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Zazz - we are planing on making two different \"rom\" downloads:
1. Normal ROM with matchbox and some usefull preinstalled util (all installed as IPKs so they can be removed if you don\'t wan\'t some or all of them). This is thought for normal users
2. Expert ROM with only kernel/term and no GUI and preinstalled IPKs.
I am delighted to hear that.
The next logical step is to think about version updates without completely reflashing the root partition. The Expert ROM looks like it could be installed over an existing installation without erasing it first with no ill effects, and everything else done via ipkg upgrades. If that is so, non-expert users will soon want to have that option too. For the upcoming release, a fresh start over is probably a good idea, but from there on, it would be nice if further upgrades did not wipe out the existing installation.
Will Ashley\'s single root partition scripts be included in the new installer?
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Zazz: Normal users will probally also have the option to upgrade without flashing.. The can just uninstall - but not until 2.0 will we have finished \"product\".
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Laze,
I think matchbox is fine. I would like to see something other than the \"default\" scheme as the default. (Sounds strange).
It is very ugly and gives people a poor first impression.
Also, I\'d love to see the default user NOT being root. You should only need to su to install pkgs and such. Use the
sudo package to help there. It\'s just good for people to understand the proper use of root on a linux/unix platform. (IMHO).
-John
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but not until 2.0 will we have finished \"product\".
Too bad you can\'t get Sharp to recognize that there could be a significant market for your product plus theirs. As delivered their clamshells are nice eye candy but only add up to an overpowered yet clunky PDA. Reprogrammed with pdaX you have something close to perfect for the growing numbers of *nix sysadmins, students and hobbiests who\'d love to have a real computer in their pocket rather than have to carry an awkward laptop. I\'ve been waiting for years for a real computer, real small, under a thousand bucks. Hey, we\'ve got it.
I second the idea that the default theme at present is quite ugly; don\'t know the options on the light-weight end of the spectrum but images of file folders just look strange on a 21st Century device.
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What do you think makes the best/fastest flexible combination of \"panels, windows managers\" etc. to make the default GUI?
Panel: anything that would offer a taskbar. matchbox-panel doesn\'t seem to offer it, and it makes it very hard to switch tasks without keyboard.
WM: anything that would give the possibility to launch applications maximized by default. Every time I launch something, the first thing I do is maximizing it.
Bonus question:
We are currently talking about replacing all the \"built-in\" prefs/settings programs with python+pygtk - how do you feel about that?
That is reasonable. It would be a bit more sluggish I guess, but that\'s not the issue with the configuration tools -- as most people tend to configure their systems only once in a while. As an exchange for the startup time, you get the rapid application development tools that would help making configuration tools much better.
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Laze:
1. I\'m very impatient. Approximately how many days \'till the release of the new ROM? (No PayPal from Hungary, sorry; but I\'m busy clicking the ads on your page! 8))
2. I like matchbox but a list-of-open-windows-applet would be handy. (I have to use alt-tab and that\'s not too convenient. A built-in (in the ROM) onscreen keyboard is needed too.
3. I think you sould see the Cacko Qtopia ROM and try to implement some of the features. (for example backlight adjusting applet for matchbox)
4. The handwriting program in the Qtopia ROM is really good; Is there a way to convert it to GTK? (I really don\'t know anything about gui programing...)
Keep up the good work! :wink:,
Zumi
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Zazz - we are planing on making two different \"rom\" downloads:
1. Normal ROM with matchbox and some usefull preinstalled util (all installed as IPKs so they can be removed if you don\'t wan\'t some or all of them). This is thought for normal users
2. Expert ROM with only kernel/term and no GUI and preinstalled IPKs
Very nice - having everything but the core system installed as IPKs is excellent. I definitely want to run X, but the only window manager I\'m interested in is Ion, which I\'m happy to build myself.
BTW. Is there any news on having qtopia compatability under pdaXrom?
cheers
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Bonus question:
We are currently talking about replacing all the \"built-in\" prefs/settings programs with python+pygtk - how do you feel about that?
Didn\'t note that one before. Anything other than storing prefs/settings in editable plain ascii text files is pure evil and leads to disaster (windows registry anyone?). Any GUI tools to changes these settings must be optional. I will not install python on my Z, and I would hate to have to fork if it became a required component.
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I agree. I will test the normal on my 700... and the expert on my 760. of course, I really want to use the 760 -- with the expert.
but this gives people the choice of using the rom that they feel they want... this way you don\'t have to keep ripping things or
keeping things out of the rom like busybox and man pages!
Scott
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We are currently talking about replacing all the \"built-in\" prefs/settings programs with python+pygtk - how do you feel about that?
I have no special use for python except for the TreeLine (http://www.bellz.org/treeline/) outliner which runs under PyQt, and to a lesser extent rpCalc (http://www.bellz.org/rpcalc/index.html) from the same guy. Both of these are well-designed, the sorts of things that should be on a PDA, but I\'m not sure how much overhead PyQt would introduce - and I\'m guessing y\'all are more in the gtk than Qt camp :wink:
Another option would be to set the preferences through Apache/PHP (although you\'d have to run Apache as root - not so good). Or to somehow abstract out the setting definitions (XML?) so that it\'s easy to script frontends in PyGTK, PyQt, PHP, bash, whatever. However it\'s done, it would be good if notes were kept on the actual text configuration files altered, both as a guide for folks who want to configure by hand, and as a guide for fixing stuff that whatever the frontend is will bollux - and I\'ve rarely seen one that\'s good for more than a first rough-approximation of a well-tuned system (linuxconf, the X11 config scripts ... stuff that\'s seen a lot of work go into it and still doesn\'t quite do the job).
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All lot of input - i will try to answer all of the questions and ideas.
We will use matchbox for the \"normal\" ROM with a another theme - more light and modern. Anyone willing to make one or suggest one?
We have been working on making the ROM less root-specific and hope to have all it all fixed and working - but no guarantees.
Release date is unknown but currently the basic kernel is 100% stable and working like a charm - im running it on my C760 together with ROX just testing it.
There will be new power and backlighting program. There will probally also be a applet for changing backlighting fast and easy + function to turn off backlighting for long MP3 playback.
We are working on getting an onscreen keyboard working.
Most of the prefs/settings will be in Python. Most of the Python prefs are just calling system commands with parameters - so all things can still be edited in text editors or using the normal system tools - but just as an example for normal end user we don\'t think running xset dpms 10 10 10 and setfl 5 - just to set the power settings and backlighting is a good solution. So therefore we think a python tool is better and easy to fix.
We have discussed making everything in webpages, like PHP (I could make the programs very quick in PHP) - but we don\'t think installing a webserver and php is a good idea in order to solve such a small \"problem\". The python \"libs\" and needed stuff takes about 4 MB uncompressed space, while libqt (which is currently used) need about 6.5 MB uncompressed space.
All settings will be stored in XML files so one can make other programs to write and reading settings file.
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well, there are alternatives to apache+php, like mini-httpd and using shell scripts for the cgi,
It will take less space on the rom.
But developement and maintenance of the scripts can be tricky...
Also a web interface will be more difficult to use on the Z and less clean than a qt UI.
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well, there are alternatives to apache+php, like mini-httpd and using shell scripts for the cgi,
It will take less space on the rom.
Plus: if Python is already installed, why use PHP at all when you can achieve exactly the same with Python-CGI?
If you manage the configuration with PyGTK or PyQt scripts, it would be consistent to make the scripts for the web-interface use Python, too.
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Laze,
It all sounds great!!! Looking forward to the new rom.
-John
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We have been working on making the ROM less root-specific and hope to have all it all fixed and working - but no guarantees.
I\'ve created a normal user, made some apps SUID root and now I can use the system with it. You can use sudo for some apps, for example qpkg, that need root.
It is really not \"cool\" to use a Linux system as root :shock:, I hope the default system will be set up for a normal user instead.
Zumi
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Laze: I know you didn\'t say anything about switching the window managers, but maybe you should look into pekwm. It uses less memory than openbox (4.4mb compared to 5.4, not a ton but every little bit saved adds up after a while), and it has a startup script that can open programs *after* itself and rox has completely loaded (I couldn\'t find a way to do this with openbox, adding the .xinitrc attempts to open the programs while the wm is running). You can also resize/move windows using the keypad. Pmf alread has it available in his feed.
There are also allot of apps in /usr/X11R6/bin that probably could be removed to save space. For example, who here plays texteroids? Many people wouldn\'t even know that it was preinstalled into pdaX, and those that do know that it doesn\'t work
I\'m happy with the matchbox setup you have now... it\'s very fast, but I do not use it. The option to uninstall it sounds very good.
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Jusy in case you woulld not have enough work to do with this new rom :wink: , i would like my favrite rom to be just as easilly internationalisable as any qt rom : different keyboard layouts easilly accessible via ipk would be appreciated for exemple.
I know vi can help anyone doing this, but i don\'t feel faire this rom to be \"geek english speaker only\".
And i really like the idea to have different Expert/Normal user rom available.
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How long are we thinking here before the release?
I\'ve just knackered my current OZ install. If we\'re talking a week or so I\'ll just put my Z on one side and wait until the new pdaXrom comes out so I can try it, if it\'s going to be more like a month then I\'ll reflash OZ and start using it again.
Si
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We are working hard on fixing a buglist with 15-20 items.. We are roughly fixing 1-2 bug a day - so in 2 weeks it would probally be ready. But we might need some time for testing and if any bugs are found it might be delayed a bit longer - but soon now.
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Cool, thanks for the reply.
Si
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It would be great to have localizations - mainly keyboards layout (for me polish one would be wonderfull ;-))
It would be also fantastic to have ability to compile various software sources on zaurus itself.
I am complete linux-newbee but I am highly interested to give something from me to zaurus community but in that case I would be capable , probably after many mistakes to compile programs for zaurus.
piotr
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It would be also fantastic to have ability to compile various software sources on zaurus itself.
This is already possible afaik. There\'s a native sdk which you can get on the pdaXrom website.
Si
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... I am complete linux-newbee but I am highly interested to give something from me to zaurus community but in that case I would be capable , probably after many mistakes to compile programs for zaurus.
It would be much more helpful if people (and complete newbies in particular) would spend their efforts to exhaustively test and validate applications, not to blindly compile new ones and making them available untested. After all, an application that can be compiled by a newbie can be compiled by anyone in a matter of minutes so what\'s the point? It is not helpful to clutter the distributions with loads of untested packages that may or may not work, and stripping essential documentation, man pages, configure options and other information to rebuild the package does not help either. It is nice and appreciated that people want to give something back to the zaurus community, but submitting your own untested compilations is not the best way to do it.
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I\'ve been playing with pdaXrom 1.0.5 this arvo.
If you do nothing else, update your version of ipkg. It\'s crap. Try the one on the latest OZ (3.3.6pre1) for example, it\'s not only more robust in terms of its input arguments, but it also doesn\'t mess up the status files after a failed install (and why do I get so many failed installs with the pdaXrom version?).
One more thing, I\'ve been having serious issues with not only the wanting to install -- app (from some previous failed install), but also running out of space on /home/tmp when I try to install things. This really annoys me and I almost know what I\'m doing. I hate to think what those with less experience would think.
Rant over.
I look forward to trying out the new version.
Si
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Zazz - we are planing on making two different \"rom\" downloads:
1. Normal ROM with matchbox and some usefull preinstalled util (all installed as IPKs so they can be removed if you don\'t wan\'t some or all of them). This is thought for normal users
2. Expert ROM with only kernel/term and no GUI and preinstalled IPKs
Sweet!
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I think QT/Qtopia or some derivative like Opie is the way to go.
Why ?
Mature - QT2.3 has had many releases and hopefully Qtopia will finially be made compatable with QT 4.0 when it comes out.
Commerical Support - Has backing of a (Trolltech) company with professional developers. And Trolltech has been a very good citizen to the open community as well as the commercial.
Portable - Apps and libraries can easily be made suitable for the Linux and even Windows desktop as QT is the basis of KDE, and is also available for all other OS\'es. I like the fact that my shared data library is the same on the Zaurus as it is on the server as it really lets me reuse code, and provides more harmony from a developers perspective as I only have to have one API for handheld and server with respect to how the data gets sent and stored.
More then just widgets- QT has plenty of other nice tools that a new widget set may not even consider, like data serialization, and supports an external data format perfect for networks that PDA \'sa re now apart of. This means if you send a floating point you don\'t have to worry if the receiving machine is little endian or bigendia, QT does it for you.
Other tools, database hooks, File classes, FTP, HTML classes. and the list goes on and on. All of these let the user write one api regardless of the OS. And who knows perhaps QT will someday run on Windows CE or even Palm
I just don\'t see the reason for reinvent the wheel, when QT and Qtopia have a rather large critical mass in the Linux world. Why not just make it better by adding more funtionaily to Qtopia, and QT, much like what KDE has done. Like a better PIM or a embedded database.
Those are my thoughts. Hope my zeal for QT did not offend anyone.
By the way I love QT and Qtopia, but I hate the way Sharp has handled their libraries. and kept their code so static
-David
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I think QT/Qtopia or some derivative like Opie is the way to go.
Nothing against QT - been using KDE for years and it\'s in front of me now - but on the Z we\'re looking at the question of how to best use limited resources for advanced tasks. What matters most for that is the applications, not the desktop. And the advanced applications aren\'t currently written in QT.
For instance, KDE\'s word processor is a joke compared to AbiWord or Open Office - almost as bad as Hancom Word. That it\'s written in QT gives it enough widgets to look like the real thing, but it doesn\'t have the quality of coding under them to really make it such.
And it\'s also important to some of us to run text-based applications well - again by being sure that the window manager gets out of the way. So until a QT-based system can run as leanly as some of the leanest X window managers, it\'s perfectly appropriate for those who want to only run a Z with PDA-oriented apps, but for those of us who want something easily carried that runs the same front-line apps that we use on much bigger systems and screens, it seems entirely the wrong way to go unless it can be used to construct a very minimal window manager, as compared to the bells-and-whistles one the Z comes with - pretty, but so as to make it more of a toy and less of a real machine that is it\'s potential.
Again, probably PDAs should be toys, and if you\'re developing specifically PDA apps for it QT is a proper means and target - but PDAs should also (and do) cost about half the Z\'s price, whereas when viewed as a miniature laptop its price point is quite the deal. So pdaX development might actually sell a lot more Z\'s than the QT-centric marketing strategy Sharp has embraced. At the least it opens up a different market.
Which is why probably both development directions make plenty of sense, with zeal appropriate to all.
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add to that, the qt libraries (x and embedded) are already available for the pdaxrom. What would be most usefull, something I tried to get working (but I was trying from a sparc machine to an arm and all the tools are for x86 to arm), was to run qtopia from within X, so if you wanted it it was there. Thing is that with applications like kopi and soon kapi, it makes little sense to run qtopia, when the qt libraries will do. There are very few of the apps for qtopia that weren\'t origninally straight X/QT apps anyway.
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my suggestions (more or less direct)
1) I noticed that XFCE is extremely fast and light, and comes with a nice panel and other promising tools.
2) I REALLY like Cacko handwriting software, it's almost perfect and really usefull
3) on a pda/minilaptop like zaurus, it would be precious to let users easily configure file browser and the interface to automatically open files and documents with their own software - with a pda using the terminal - holy terminal - can be not that fast
4) THE BATTERY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please try to use Xscale power saving features, or discover why pdaxrom eats so much battery, whilst QTopia just sniff it
5) include lynx o links in the "large rom" edition
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2) I REALLY like Cacko handwriting software, it's almost perfect and really usefull
what ? did I missed something there ? is there an handwriting software for pdaXrom ? please let me know and give the url
edit : just noticed it was a wish ... seem I smoked too much yesterday lol ... btw you can try xstroke for that even if less efficient than cacko's (sharp) one
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2) I REALLY like Cacko handwriting software, it's almost perfect and really usefull
what ? did I missed something there ? is there an handwriting software for pdaXrom ? please let me know and give the url
edit : just noticed it was a wish ... seem I smoked too much yesterday lol ... btw you can try xstroke for that even if less efficient than cacko's (sharp) one
holy weed..
I'll try xstroke... but I really hope to find a port of qtopia handwriting software for pdaxrom... it would be sooooooo nice
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what about including in the distro the optional "just root partition" setup file?
It's a nice option
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yes please !!!!!!
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I did'nt install it on my 1.0.5 just because i did'nt want to reconfigure everything i had set up, but the new... egh, what version will it be by the way ? 1.1 ? 1.0.6 ? Anyway this new install will be the occasion for it.
On a c750, you definitly don't have enough space and i don't use the /home : my cf is larger and i can access it even if my z is out of power...
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the battery!!!!
i think that is the most important thing!!!
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Surely the only shell any self-respecting Zaurus user should use is <drumroll> zsh! </drumroll>
More powerful than bash and only 2/3 the size!
Patrick.
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that is definitely sooooo true...