OESF Portables Forum
Everything Else => General Support and Discussion => Zaurus General Forums => Archived Forums => Security and Networking => Topic started by: TonyOlsen on June 08, 2004, 10:56:22 am
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See:
http://www.sdcard.com/b2b/TextPage.asp?Page=8 (http://www.sdcard.com/b2b/TextPage.asp?Page=8)
Specifically, note the following diagram:
[img]http://www.sdcard.com/b2b/FAQ/faq_checkin.jpg\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
SD Cards are evil... but they can still be used for good in some devices. \"SD Audio Players\" aren\'t one of those devices.
Fight the new standard! Don\'t buy SD Audio Players or anything else that supports the copyright protection on SD cards!
By the way, does the Zaurus enforce this copyright protection on the SD cards? Can you play, copy, or move audio from a SD card on the Zaurus? If so, then the SD is \"good\" in the Zaurus...
...but beware of the evil hardware!! You have been warned. :twisted:
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What does this all mean?
JP
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What does this all mean?
JP
I think, it does mean, that TonyOlsen does not completely understand the copyright protection of SD cards...
z.
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Highly probable!
Enlighten me!
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THis is the same for Sony digital players - well the one I bought for the GF anyway and it just had internal storage.
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yes yes
DRM
the music suck butts of america wants to lock your pc by telling everybody its for your best interest.
so do a search on DRM and learn also about
windows media player 10 which does it very well to give you DRM
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So.... SD Audio Players are bad... yes? (because of DRM = Digital Rights Management). MMC Audio Players are good.
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nana...compact flash is good.
im hoping to get a c860 with 4gb compact flash
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im hoping to get a c860 with 4gb compact flash
Sweet!
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I think it depends entirely on method of use... if you have an SD reader/writer on your PC, and an audio device or camera that uses SD, you can copy files back and forth as if you were using a floppy. If you have some goofy program that touches the SD drive to set nefarious bits, or you buy software that comes on an SD card with nefarious bits already set, then yes, you will have problems once it latches onto a specific reading device like a PC.
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So... DRM is hardware/software enforced... but it isn\'t enforced at the SD card itself. The SD Audio Player enforces it at the hardware level and Miscrosoft Windows Media Player enforces it at the software level.
If I download audio to my SD Audio Player, remove the SD card, and insert it into my PC, will Windows be able to copy those files?
hm... actually I guess it may depend on which version of Windows you are using. I\'d imagine that Windows 98SE doesn\'t care, but Windows XP may make these files hidden and innaccessable.
Does Linux enforce DRM?
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okay..
drm is software enforced and the music movie industry is lobbying to add it to hardware as well.
as far as i can tell sd cards are not affected at the moment but will be soon
i been reading alot on this so as far as i can tell, we are okay at the moment as long as you dont update to drm hardware and software that sony puts out along with HP]..these guys are making hardware DRM last but not least do not install windoes media 10 which is loaded with the stuff.. windows media player 9 is okay with drm which gives you a choice. Longhorn which is the new windows will ahve loads of that drm crap.
now that the 64bit market on is is available, are you going to go windows or linux......ill go linux cuz now they offer unreal2004 which makes me happier and can play games on the linux platform..
so.........linux 64bit is the way to go.
ogg files is the way to go if it ever comes to this.
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sorry i was rambling but i got to get back to my fix
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Thanks!
I\'m preparing myself to make the switch to Linux on, or before, that time arives.
But... does Linux enforce DRM? Will Linux have \"loads of that drm crap\" on it too? ...or is Linux commited to OpenSource and Copyright reform?
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The copy protection of SD cards is not supported on the Zaurus, as far as I know the Z sees SD cards like MMC. That\'s my understanding anyway.
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Thanks!
I\'m preparing myself to make the switch to Linux on, or before, that time arives.
But... does Linux enforce DRM? Will Linux have \"loads of that drm crap\" on it too? ...or is Linux commited to OpenSource and Copyright reform?
Even if someone would put the DRM stuff into a linux distribution you could just take it out of the source if you wanted and recompile without. Though from everythign I have heard no one plans on adding it to the main kernel branch. The individual distributions like Red Hat, Suse, Linspire or any of the others could do it on their own. For me if a distribution decides to enforce DRM then I will find one that does not. Now to just hope the goverment does not make it so that all software enforce the DRM.
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Damn...my sig did nto come out the way I wanted...back tot he drawing board...
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DRM on the linux platform is optional. As long as companies do not enforce it, we are fine.
Though linus said its alright, he didnt say it should be in the linux platform. I tried most os\'s and they work fine without drm. So far, i have not read about anybody adding it to the platform.
Microsoft is lobbying for a way to manage or programs.
under DRM to DMCA. They want to lock down your pc so if you buy a product, in order to activate it, it must send a key to the microsoft server. If the government legislation, etc accepts this. this means we do not own the software and opensource will die!!!! I just want to make everybody aware of this since a few of us don\'t realize how serious this is.
linux will be affected as we.
So far, at the moment, the law isnt available to be enforced.
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ohh damn i forgot to mention. if that law does pass from dmca or drm, that means all pc hardware, handheld that comes to america will have a fritz chip and this is bad.
they call it \"Trusted Computing\" and they are marketing it this way so stupid people will buy it.
here is a list from this website if you wanna read it and get pissed off http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html (http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html)
. What is TC - this `trusted computing\' business?
The Trusted Computing Group (TCG) is an alliance of Microsoft, Intel, IBM, HP and AMD which promotes a standard for a `more secure\' PC. Their definition of `security\' is controversial; machines built according to their specification will be more trustworthy from the point of view of software vendors and the content industry, but will be less trustworthy from the point of view of their owners. In effect, the TCG specification will transfer the ultimate control of your PC from you to whoever wrote the software it happens to be running. (Yes, even more so than at present.)
The TCG project is known by a number of names. `Trusted computing\' was the original one, and is still used by IBM, while Microsoft calls it `trustworthy computing\' and the Free Software Foundation calls it `treacherous computing\'. Hereafter I\'ll just call it TC, which you can pronounce according to taste. Other names you may see include TCPA (TCG\'s name before it incorporated), Palladium (the old Microsoft name for the version due to ship in 2004) and NGSCB (the new Microsoft name). Intel has just started calling it `safer computing\'. Many observers believe that this confusion is deliberate - the promoters want to deflect attention from what TC actually does.
2. What does TC do, in ordinary English?
TC provides a computing platform on which you can\'t tamper with the application software, and where these applications can communicate securely with their authors and with each other. The original motivation was digital rights management (DRM): Disney will be able to sell you DVDs that will decrypt and run on a TC platform, but which you won\'t be able to copy. The music industry will be able to sell you music downloads that you won\'t be able to swap. They will be able to sell you CDs that you\'ll only be able to play three times, or only on your birthday. All sorts of new marketing possibilities will open up.
TC will also make it much harder for you to run unlicensed software. In the first version of TC, pirate software could be detected and deleted remotely. Since then, Microsoft has sometimes denied that it intended TC to do this, but at WEIS 2003 a senior Microsoft manager refused to deny that fighting piracy was a goal: `Helping people to run stolen software just isn\'t our aim in life\', he said. The mechanisms now proposed are more subtle, though. TC will protect application software registration mechanisms, so that unlicensed software will be locked out of the new ecology. Furthermore, TC apps will work better with other TC apps, so people will get less value from old non-TC apps (including pirate apps). Also, some TC apps may reject data from old apps whose serial numbers have been blacklisted. If Microsoft believes that your copy of Office is a pirate copy, and your local government moves to TC, then the documents you file with them may be unreadable. TC will also make it easier for people to rent software rather than buy it; and if you stop paying the rent, then not only does the software stop working but so may the files it created. So if you stop paying for upgrades to Media Player, you may lose access to all the songs you bought using it.
For years, Bill Gates has dreamed of finding a way to make the Chinese pay for software: TC looks like being the answer to his prayer.
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but it doesnt stop there. opensource will need to be registered and if not, you cannot run the application.
let us say if you make a movie on your pc. this is a movie that you made with your wife on a video. with drm, the video will not render unless you are connected online and it sends information to microsoft to determine if your making a legal video. if it passes a test, then it will give you permission to do so.
let say you have word. you own a copy but if you dont pay the rental fee of your word program, you wont be able to run the program next year.
open office can open word documents but if they enforce the law, open office will suffer the same fate.
and it gets worse
anyway, i hope i enlightened you
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u should try to not get the physical media confused with the electronic content, for example with DVDs the content is a protected format, but the disk itself can be used to store a non protected content. which is bascially what cresho said. but do we need to avoid protected formats? those of u watching DVDs on your PC without a licensed player are not avoiding a protected format, but are bypassing any DRM. With encoded formats with built in DRM all you need is a knobbled codec, or a player with the mechanism crippled. there will always be someone who will break any \"DRM\" mechanism, hardware or software based... given enough time and incentive, I\'ve always thought there are 3 main incentives, \"want to show the world how great they are\", \"want to annoy the big \'capitalist\' corps\" and the good ol\' \"want to make a quick buck\"...
On the point about dodgy players, who here actually trusts that mediaplayer 9, realplayer doesn\'t send info or what u are watching to big brother? media player classic and bsplayer all the way for me pls...
On the issue of DRM I personally feel there is nothing wrong with it as long as its implemented in the right way, for instance those audio CDs which only work in certain devices (and not advertised as such, but so easy to get around) certainly is the wrong way
enforcing DR... the RIAA - how wrong can they be way, but iTunes is a step in the right direction!
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snigger took them long enough to squeeze the DVD royalties from china and what did they do? they come up with the evd format...
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oh and to bypass the online decoding mechanism all u need is one person to pay, rip it and release it. already been happening for years, not that I agree with it (for the benefit of any enforcement officer wanting to skin a monkey...)
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Keep in mind that \"SD\" stands for Secure Digital and that is precisely WHY they were developed, to enforce \"copy protection schemes\" with portable music players high on the list.
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I have yet to see anything on Linux that supports DRM. In order to support DRM, you need to sign a pricy license agreement/NDA of some sort, which isn\'t all that great for Linux programmers. DRM code is always closed source; if the DRM code was open, then people could easily hack their way around the encryption, and it\'d be useless. That\'s also why SD cards are a closed format and there are no open source drivers supporting it (that I know of).
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Well, Hymn http://hymn-project.org/ (http://hymn-project.org/) supports DRM, but in the reverse way, exactly as you state. And it does not have to be Open Source for people to find out how to exercise their rights with the software and hardware.
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magic gate was \"developed, to enforce \"copy protection schemes\" with portable music players high on the list.\" but it doesn\'t work if I refuse to use sony\'s format and their current devices play mp3s and eq i use doesnt use the mg functionality then all mg means is i pay a little extra for my media. end of the day for CE products its the consumer that counts if a product is so restrictive then people tend to not buy the product. this knee jerk reaction to drm is the same as riaa knee jerk reaction to p2p.
\" DRM code is always closed source; if the DRM code was open, then people could easily hack their way around the encryption, and it\'d be useless.\" - you wanna give schneider and all of the other open source crypto gurus a lesson here? i do believe twofish came 2nd place in the AES competition...
dvd is closed source all that was needed for that to be broken was some person to \"accidently\" publish the keys on their web site...
closed source argument about security to me equals ostrich head in the sand technique...
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My understanding is that there is copy protection and encryption support builtin to the SD card spec. While the Zaurus sees an SD card like a MMC card, if a SD card has any of the copy protection/encryption turned on I\'m guessing you will most likely not be able to access the content of the card. This probably also goes for a PC SD card reader.
Otherwise the DRM stuff would be far too easy to get around if you could just put the protected SD card in something like a Zaurus and copy the files.
So yes, DRM is bad since it could easily stop you doing legitimate things, but I also think copyright infringment is bad too. If you want to boycott something like a record company, don\'t listen to their music, period. It won\'t hurt you .
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Another example is DVD regioning, which is part of the industry standard, what most people do is buy a region free player, bye bye restrictions
To produce a working DRM system is a very hard thing, because u don\'t want to scare away the consumer with the copyright protection mechanism (protect your content, but can\'t sell it, is more worthless then unprotected content, since at least the unprotected stuff is getting public exposure), althro I can\'t understand RIAA\'s methods at all...
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\"Hacking their way around the encryption\" means extracting both the keys and the algorithm from the DRM code. Yes, you\'re right: no matter if they close source it or open source it, people will eventually get at it. But if you don\'t even know what algorithm is being used, you\'ve just made it that much harder for people to circumvent.
Take a look at WMA: it uses ECC, DES, RC4, SHA-1, etc etc. It\'s not just the keys. It\'s what they\'re used for.
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bah any cryptograher would tell u its the protocol not the algorithm that counts eg WEP
i think the thing people are missing is that a good deal of people live in the \"free\" world where we get to choose what products we wish to spend our hard earned nuggets on. M$ been spending ages trying to force people to use their products, for instance the reaction from the dvd forum in regards to WMA being included in the standard? one thing to keep in mind all of the big service providers want u and other providers to use their products, and no one wants to pay M$ more royalites. the content providers would most prbly go for the service provider with the most largest customer base...
anyway if u live in a place like china u would go for the pirated version if u didnt want to spend a years wages on a copy of photoshop...