OESF Portables Forum
Everything Else => General Support and Discussion => Zaurus General Forums => Archived Forums => Software => Topic started by: Fraggy on August 10, 2004, 07:54:34 pm
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Has anyone tried to "port" Blender on a Zaurus SL-5500 already?
Blender is open source modeling/rendering software that runs on different platforms, and now also on an IPaQ:
http://download.blender.org/documentation/...BLENDERING.html (http://download.blender.org/documentation/oldsite/oldsite.blender3d.org/245_Blender%20news%20EXTREME%20BLENDERING.html)
and:
http://mirrors.wamug.org.au/blender3d/docu...ade%20news.html (http://mirrors.wamug.org.au/blender3d/documentation/oldsite/oldsite.blender3d.org/239_Blender%20news%20Upgrade%20news.html)
The unoptimized version seems to work quite well on the IpaQ.
Blender uses opengl only, even for it's gui, so it's supposed to be very portable, so please anyone who volunteers to port this 3D baby to the big Z, please please pretty please? I'm not much of a programmer
Source code can be found here:
http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Source_Code.12.0.html (http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Source_Code.12.0.html)
Hope there will be enough geeks interested in this, because this would also be a killer application to show off the capablities of the big Z, especially with code optimized and the likes!!!!
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ee.. 3d modeling on a 400mhz processor?
Doesn't sound too smooth to me :-/
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ee.. 3d modeling on a 400mhz processor?
Doesn't sound too smooth to me :-/
What are you talking about? 400mhz is a lot! Back in the days I had 3d games running smooth on a 486sl 33mhz! Gaming and 3d modeling might be a bit different but give me a break! 400mhz is not a slow speed.
I would also be interested in seeing this type of program on the Z.
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Well, another obstacle is the missing floating-point processor. There is a thread somewhere on ZUG about an integer-only OpenGL implementation, hopefully it gets somewhere. I have to regard Blender as an overkill, though - the VGA screen is just too small for anything serious. And who _needs_ a toy 3D modeler?
z.
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The java demo on the 6k seems to render fairly smooth and maybe one can be used from there.
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Many moons ago, when I used to do 3d work, I did my first contract work rendering a product demo on a 486dx2-100. The render for about 45secs of final product took about 3 days, but the modelling process was perfectly acceptable, which is what this product should be targetted at!
Unfortunately, it did have a floating point co-processor, which makes a big difference.
I must admit doing a double-take when I read that they were porting a version to the ipaq (320x240!!!).
Yz
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Indeed the actual Zaurus has a lot more horse power than the old 486 computers and remember that the first 3D Studio (the DOS version) was written for the 486!!!!
That was waaay before we were spoiled with pentium 4's that have now come with Geforce4's!!!
True, the screen is a bit small to be truly productive, and it's also true that rendering on the Z is does not seem usefull, but the Blender demo case on the IpaQ is about MODELING, and according to the reactions, even the UNOPTIMIZED "demo" was performing pretty well (pay attention zenyatta!), so if the code would be optimized for fixed point operations then we'd have a nice "offdesk" modeling tool.
ee.. 3d modeling on a 400mhz processor?Doesn't sound too smooth to me :-/
I've done some pretty heavy modeling on my P233 Laptop, and a 400Mhz is MORE than enough for modeling, especially with nurbs! Animation Master runs smoooootthhhhllyyy on low end machines!!!! Also Lightwave runs pretty well on a 233Mhz.
And the small screen size is not an excuse: using appz that replace M$ Word on a tiny screen??? Nobody complained about that before? Haha, and in the case of a modeling tool, I think that if you think well about the layout and optimize the use of your space and GUI, you could create a modeling tool that is actually quite usefull!!! It just needs an adapted (more efficient) gui!
And with the new LCD technology Sharp introduced, we'll see super small 800x600 screens in the near future and let me tell you that this, together with a 400Mhz arm processor, will be moooore than enough to do some basic but good modeling.
Besides, every modeler *should* model with resource-friendlyness in mind, not like you hardware spoiled kids, haha!!!!
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Anyway, why do businessmen wanna use PDA's? To take "small work" with them on the road: do some excell and word compatible work "offdesk" so they can later complete that work "ondesk" using the full blown M$ Office suite.
Well, with a 3DBlender version for PDA's the same thing is valid: You can model props and small stuff "offdesk" (or "on the road" if you prefer that term), and render them "ondesk".
Especially modelling characters and objects using lowpoly boxmodeling (yes, I am a modeler who keeps his mind on resources!!!) would be very viable on a PDA. And for games where polycount has to be kept to a minimum...
Then later you "upload" your models to your desktop machine to put them in a scene, add lights, etc... apply meshsmooth and render them...
I really don't see why 3D modeling would *NOT* be usefull on a PDA!!!!!
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And who _needs_ a toy 3D modeler?
... and who needs a Toy M$ Word, M$ Excel, M$ powerpoint????
... who _needs_ toy *computers* like handhelds in the first place???????
Hahaha, gimme a break!!!!
Jean-Marc.
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Doing some more sniffing around I found out that my news was actually old news (from 2001): this "demo" was running on a now old Ipaq with only 200Mhz, not even a 400Mhz one!
http://download.blender.org/documentation/...0Community.html (http://download.blender.org/documentation/oldsite/oldsite.blender3d.org/168_Blender%20news%20Community.html)
One of the biggest suprises at the GDC was the demonstration of Blender running on a Win CE PDA (personal digital assistant). Prepared as a demonstration of the portability of the Blender code, the full creation suite was shown running on the 200 Mhz, 32 Mb iPAQ system.
With a textured game demo playback of 3-4 frames per second, without CPU optimization, it was another confirmation of the power of NaN technology to shape next generation digital media. Mobile and PDA 3D gaming is arriving!
But this means that the news only gets better
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... who _needs_ toy *computers* like handhelds in the first place???????
People like us. Zaurus user are geeks. Well, a fair number of us.
For example..
There's a libSDL version of Bochs in the ZSI, and one of the screenshots is of WINDOWS 98 BOOTING (and it's a picure of the Zaurus - evidently taken with a camera of some sort - not just a screenshot). Supposedly too slow to actually use, but it's another one of those if-you-can-do-it-why-not? things.
But from the sounds of it, Blender on the Zaurus is actually plausible if it runs fairly well on a 200 Mhz Ipaq.
Anyone up for the porting job?
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Fraggy,
I'm glad you provided an answer to my question (which was by no means rhetorical). It is nice to see your enthusiasm. I hope you can find a few equally enthusiastic people with the necessary skills to do the port. Good luck
z.
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I'm glad you provided an answer to my question (which was by no means rhetorical).
It did sound pretty rethorical to me, hehe, but then again modern technology allows us to see beauties like Soulcalibur on the dreamcast where the characters move smoothly at 60 fps with antialiasing, and this game is programmed so well that you don't even see the polygons anymore! My eyeballs almost fell out when I first saw that game on the dreamcast 5 years ago, and the visual quality and fluidness is still not equalled by PC games (due to "lazy" programming: we need more optimization gods like John Carmack (Doom, Quake...) and namco)
So being spoiled with such smoothness and visual quality it is not surprising that many people wonder if 400Mhz will be enough, especially with the floating point operations missing. I myself am surprised that it actually works on a 200Mz fixed point processor, but then again, Animation Master, Lightwave and Rhino worked extremely well on my pentium 233Mhz laptop (although here we do have advantage of floating point processing & mmx)...
So now anyone bold enough to port to the Zaurus? The sourcecode is available on www.blender.org!!! There are 2 linux versions, a version that works WITH and a version that works WITHOUT OpenGL, so come on guys, give it a try!!!! Here's the source code:
http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Source_Code.12.0.html (http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Source_Code.12.0.html)
Bring that baby to the Z!!!!
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I'm a new owner of an SL-5500 and was a ipaq 3600 user, who had a Blender port working on said ipaq. I would love to see Blender on the Zaurus. I've been blending for 4 years now, so a toy 3-d modeler would be absolutely fantastic for me. I also happen to be a programmer. I don't have much free time, but I would be interested in helping a port effort
Trevor
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Well, how about I setup a project page on sourceforge.net????
First of all, I'd advise you to simply download the Linux source code and cross compile it to your Zaurus. The ipaq version you have is not optimized neighter, so the result you'll have should be a working one!!!! That would definately be a good start and if we'd turn it into a distributable package for the Zaurus and spread it through the Zaurus Software Index (http://www.killefiz.de/zaurus/) or other Zaurus software pages, it might generate much more interest and participants in order to port/optimize it for the Z.
Right now, I'm not much of a programmer... I have some experience with Java and right now I'm specialized in Webdesign (programming html / php mainly) and worst of all: I do not have my Zaurus yet .
I'll have my Zaurus in December, when I'll spend my holidays in Holland with my parents (I'm Dutch but I live in Argentina). My parents bought one for me (SL-5500 for the next X-Mas), yipieeeee!!! As soon as I have the Z in my hands I'll start focussing more on programming in C, C++ and well, whatever... Programming for Linux / Zaurus!
I'll try to compile Blender for the Zaurus myself, but when it comes to optimize Blender for the Z? I suppose you'll need some 3D skills for that too, but what the heck, having a Z and having an Open Source 3D suite that kicks arse is motivation enough to at least give it a try! (okay, it's still not as powerfull as Lightwave or 3DStudio Max, but it's still growing and it's free!!!). I've used Max & Lightwave for too long, I wanna be an open source 3D artist, haha!
I bet we kan make Ton Roosendaal, Blender's founder (we had some conversations by mail), very happy if we get this project running, because the old ipaq blender project died because people didn't see the usefullness of it (Grrrrr!!! Like having a stripped down version of M$ word is *usefull* on an handheld!!!) Of course it is usefull and so would be a (literally) portable Blender!!!!
But due to this lack of interest, Ton and his people can not spend time on a Pocket PC or Zaurus version of Blender although he really enjoyed to see my enthousiasm.
Let's see if we can get this project off the ground.
labingdaga, please stay tuned while I open a project page on Source Forge and anybody who's reading this thread and wants to participate, you're welcome!!!!
Let's revive the handheld blender project!!!!
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I have applied for a new project page on sourceforge.net. Now I'm waiting for it to be accepted.
Come on guys, we need programmers!!!
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Sounds like a good project...It'll be interesting to see if it gets anywhere...I like blender a lot..and to use it on my Z would be quite a joy.
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The project on Sourceforge has been accepted.
I hope this sourceforge page will generate more interest and more participants it would be really nice to bring this project to a good end.
Here's the url: http://sourceforge.net/projects/zblender/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/zblender/)
People who want to participate: register yourselves as Sourceforge members and mail me your usernames, so I can add you to the project.
Come on there, we need some programmers!!!!
I hope we can optimize Blender enough to make it run real smoothly on a Zaurus SL-5500, but for the CL-series with it's VGA screen and 400Mhz processor, Blender *should* run like a dream!!!!!
Well, that depends how well we optimize 'cause the hardware itself just rocks!
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Just had a look at the sourceforge and homepage, looks good.
I hope you get the programmers needed to do the work.
Do you think Giram (http://www.giram.org/) could be compiled for pdaXrom?
Simon.
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Do you think Giram could be compiled for pdaXrom?
"Nothing is impossible!" has always been my slogan as a programmer and I have yet to see something that is not possible (or something that will never be possible in any future) so the aswer is positively "yes".
However, I'd like to restrict this thread to Blender, just to not to get stuff mixed up in too many (and wrong) places. You're welcome to start a new topic "Giram for the Zaurus wanted" in the software section if you wish or "Open Source 3D appz for the Zaurus" to discuss which appz might be interesting to port to the Zaurus!
Hey, and include a POLL in that thread, while you're at it
In the meantime, if you wanna see some 3D suits running on your Z, why don't you check out "The Art of Illusion" http://www.artofillusion.org/ (http://www.artofillusion.org/)
It's a 3D suite written entirely in Java, so it should run on the Z without any modifications.
I haven't tried it out yet because I don't even have my Zaurus yet (I'll find it under the X-Mas tree next X-Mas) and I'll definately check out more Open Source 3D programs / modelers, but when it comes to porting, I'll dedicate myself to Blender only. The Art of Illusion has been around for quite a while, but Blender even longer and Blender is really a quite mature product, that's why I'd rather stick to Blender.
(And it's originally a Dutch product, so this makes me quite proud, as I'm Dutch myself )
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Thanks for the reply, I understand it is better to keep this thread clean so I will stick to blender questions!
If blender is ported to the z will it be a full port, will it use import/export scripts (eg. povray output)?
I registered for the C-key in blender the first time it was released and bought the two manuals.
Having used moray and povray for quite a few years it was difficult for me to retrain myself to use blender hence I struggled with it.
Thankyou for reminding me about ArtOfIllusion, last time I looked at this was version 1.1, I have downloaded it and will try to get it going.
I also thought jPatch (http://jpatch.sourceforge.net/) might work.
Although I am not Dutch, I would be very happy if I were, all the time I have spent in Holland has been extremely pleasant and the people very nice (except one guy who tried to mug me with his hand under his coat like a gun - he ran when I laughed at him!).
I look forward to using blender on my Z.
Simon.
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My apologies for the guy with the banana in his pocket, at least you humiliated him properly
Yeah I can see now that you're quite addicted to POVRAY
I've played with morray / povray in the early days of povray, long before I could get my hands on a copy of 3DStudio for DOS... In those days the 3D artist needed to be a programmer in order to be able to get something nice on his screen
I do suppose that povray did improve in userfriendlyness though...
I agree that it takes some time to "convert yourself" from one program to the other: I was used to Lightwave and now that I'm learning Blender, I'm having quite a hard time to adapt myself to Blender's interface. However, Blender's interface seems quite well designed.
But to come back at your question... It's a bit early in this time of the project to talk already about features: a full port may not even be desired, for example we might leave out the heavy rendering functionalities (those are battery drainers). On the other hand, you may score a lot of geek points by clustering PDAs to build a render farm, so who knows what will become of it?
With the explosive growth of PDA horsepower and future battery technologies, I'd say a full port would be interesting
But one thing is for sure: that the file import / export of the PDA version of Blender *should* (if technically possible) at all times support the same formats as the desktop version!!!