OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: omro on August 27, 2004, 09:43:14 am
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Hi All,
Ok, this will sound like I'm knocking the Zaurus and the work that people have done to improve it. I'm not really, I do appreciate both, I was just wondering what people's thoughts were.
My Zaurus 5500 must be nearly two years old now, if not older, I can't quite remember when I bought it, seems like ages ago now.
There have been a few upgrades to the Sharp Rom in the dim and distant past and it seems like Sharp themselves have abandoned the product. TheKompany ROM improved upon the Sharp Rom a little, but seems to have died on this model as well. I don't really know much about the other Roms that are compatible with this model, though emphasis does seem to be on the C series Zaurii.
OpenZaurus (OpenEmbedded) seems to be the only way to upgrade the ROM and Apps on this particular model, but while that's great to have an operating system future for this device, there doesn't seem to have been much development on the core apps for a PDA (The PIM and Word Processor and Spreadsheet). Application development seems to be continuing for the more esoteric applications, which is cool that these devices can be tailored for such varied niche uses.
PDA computing in general with Linux seems even further behind the rivals than it seemed when I bought the Zaurus. The competition's software looks much more attractive and useable.
I've found over the time that I've had it that the Zaurus has been more of a "test this, try that, install this, flash that" type of product for me, rather than something I've used consistently, constructively and enjoyably.
You are quite welcome to state a different view point to my observations.
What I'm wondering is... is there really much point sticking with a Z5500? Will the operating system and core apps really improve? Will they improve more quickly and with more focus now that OpenEmbedded is behind the scenes? Will they ever catch up to the core apps on Pocket PC for example? How much of a lifespan does the Z5500 still have? And should someone really bother with sticking to a Linux PDA in the future?
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I think there's still life in the beast yet :-)
Certainly OE is the way to go, and it will provide fresh releases and updated software.
I don't think the PIM apps are too bad to tell the truth; there's certainly things to be done - integration with Windows I suppose.
Word processors are big endevours, so your best bet there is to wait for the textmaker(?) app (which is pay-ware), or to see what you can start porting to Qtopia. There's a basic spreadsheet app for opie - opie-sheet - it needs work, but doesn't everything ;-)
Si
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Do you think it will be worth the wait?
And that OE will gather steam?
I would have thought that developing an OpenEmbeddedOffice would be useful project.....
All other views on my original post are welcome :-)
I find this all interesting.
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Do you think it will be worth the wait?
Yes. Definitely.
And that OE will gather steam?
It has already gathered a fair amount of steam, there are a number of active developers (but of course more are always needed).
Take a look at the oe mailing list, linked from http://openembedded.org/wiki (http://openembedded.org/wiki)
I would have thought that developing an OpenEmbeddedOffice would be useful project.....
I agree, but it's also a rather involved project which requires a number of developers and a lot of commitment. I have little need for a full-blown word processing package most of the time, and this is presumably what's stopping others from developing one.
A better spreadsheet would be a good thing though...
Si
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Definitely, a new spreadsheet app would be nice
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Hi,
full ACK with lardman and the future of SL-5500G. So I use this Thread to post some screenshots running OZ3.3.6-pre1/Opie1.1.4 based on hentges rom. (ok, they are german)
So these are my pim:
[img]http://teletubbie.hentges.net/screenshots/pim.png\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
The mail app is opiemail3 (Pops, Imap+SSL+Secureport). You can also use kopi/kapi and kphonepi. I recompiled that with gcc 3.3.2 for the rom using openembedded.
Here is the feed:
http://teletubbie.hentges.net/feed/ (http://teletubbie.hentges.net/feed/)
Here are the apps:
[img]http://teletubbie.hentges.net/screenshots/appsone.png\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
[img]http://teletubbie.hentges.net/screenshots/appstwo.png\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
Ok, for hancom, qpdf2 and opera I use compat libs.
Here are the lovely icons on settings:
[img]http://teletubbie.hentges.net/screenshots/settingsone.png\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
Talking about Textprocessing, you can see Latex running on Zaurus:
[img]http://teletubbie.hentges.net/screenshots/wordproone.png\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
And view the outcome:
[img]http://teletubbie.hentges.net/screenshots/wordprotwo.png\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
And no the OZ dont crashes daily. There are new OE Kernels and new pcmcia_cs.
You can find all the stuff on hentges. The OE Kernels are provided with the 1.1.4 rom.
Just to give an Impression.
Cheers,
Sam
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Since all of your screenshots are from 3.3.6 and using OPIE, out of curiosity, how relevant are they to the future of the 5500?
Because, isn't OZ 3.5 moving over to GPE?
Will the same apps be available for use under GPE or will there be a whole new set of apps to use instead?
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I have a 5500 and I am asking myself the same question. I am vacillating between selling it and getting myself a 6000L or selling it and getting a Japanese subnotebook (Toshiba Portege R100 or maybe the Panasonic W2) and a Palm PDA. Sure the subnotebook + Palm will put me back $2K versus $700 for the 6000L but the performance/price ratio would probably be greater if i went with the subnotebook and PDA rather than the Zaurus. This is especially true when I consider the fact I spent most of my time with the Z flashing/test/flash/test/.... rather than just working with it. The crazy price of the 6000L doesn't seem to be worth it considering you can get a subnotebook with all its capabilities and more + larger screen. Pair that with a $200 Palm pilot (which you can SYNC with linux) and the Zaurus line seems like a poor investment.
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Trolltech continues to work on Qtopia. We are about to be release 2.1 in the near future. Rumors have it that with this release, should come a "non supported" Zaurus rom based on OZ, with Qtopia 2.1.
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I just went Mac with a 12" Powerbook, so that's very portable and nice, but of course Zaurus and Mac aren't as friendly towards one another as Mac and Palm, though I don't like Palm devices...
I honestly like my 5500, the size is good though starting to look a bit chunky, the keyboard is great compared to the alternatives, it's fun to faff with every now and then and flash it to something new.
BUT.
The applications are weak. Syncing to anything PC, Mac, Linux is weak.
For me it's a hobby device rather than a truly useful device, which is a shame.
I prefer OZ to the Sharp or tKC Roms which I have tried. I've not yet tried to Cacko Roms. Unfortunately not all apps work very well with OZ.
I just hope that when OZ 3.5 turns up there is a nice list of applications and rather than just the geek friendly apps, that there is a shift in emphasis towards creating PocketPC/Palm equivalent apps that useful to the general user, such as a decent word processor, spreadsheet, PIM and media application.
I don't wish to sound critical, since I can't program and can't help.
Maybe some of the OE developers might consider doing a tutorial series on how the operating system fits together for OE and idiot's guides to OE programming, turn some of us non programming posters into programmers too or at least code checkers or something?
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I have a 5500 and I am asking myself the same question. I am vacillating between selling it and getting myself a 6000L or selling it and getting a Japanese subnotebook (Toshiba Portege R100 or maybe the Panasonic W2) and a Palm PDA. Sure the subnotebook + Palm will put me back $2K versus $700 for the 6000L but the performance/price ratio would probably be greater if i went with the subnotebook and PDA rather than the Zaurus. This is especially true when I consider the fact I spent most of my time with the Z flashing/test/flash/test/.... rather than just working with it. The crazy price of the 6000L doesn't seem to be worth it considering you can get a subnotebook with all its capabilities and more + larger screen. Pair that with a $200 Palm pilot (which you can SYNC with linux) and the Zaurus line seems like a poor investment.
The Zaurus is definitely more of a "hobbyist" machine than a Palm or sub-notebook. But there is so much potential for upgrade and OS choice. Why not consider a 760 or 860. They are very compatible with much of the development being done, cheaper than a 6000, smaller than a 6000, every bit as capable as the 6000, etc.
I really enjoy my 760, and use it in portrait mode 90% of the time. I can type quite fast on the on-screen keyboard, and the 480x640 gives a whole new level of sharpness. Plus, I can always swivel around if I am really doing hardcore typing and have a really large keyboard.
I've been considering getting a subnotebook too, but there are two pretty big drawbacks:
1) hard drive: noise, reliability, power (extremely short battery life)
2) size & weight: the only one that is close to 760 is the OQO which will be $$$
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I see where you are coming from with what you say, but I'm put off from the C series due to the following reasons:
1) There isn't a proper british version.
2) They are quite old now, so I'd buy one and then they'd release something new and cooler and annoy me.
3) The apps are still the apps on the other Zaurii and therefore, uninspiring.
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I'm still pretty satisfied with the 5500 and I think it will use it for another couple of years.
A new release of OZ is imminent (no, we're not moving to GPE, we just integrated it into the build system, so that we can ship bootstrap images, Opie images, GPE images, etc.), most 2.6 kernel work is done for collie, and people seem to be very satisfied with the new breed of applications, e.g. kdepimpi, wellenreiter (although picky about its environment), opie-eye, opie-mail3, and the like.
Same goes for my C7x0, although support for it is a bit less good, much due to the amount of closed source - read Qtopia/Sharp, AtiCore, libsl, etc.
As much as OpenEmbedded is concerned, this received so much interest beyond the Zaurus community that it will be much more useful than we ever thought.
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That sounds promising. Perhaps Open Embedded was the push that the platform needed to give it that kick up the backside to actually put up a united front again the competition of Palm/PocketPC.
As I've said before, I wish I was a programmer, my mind just isn't that well designed for such things, as I really do find operating systems quite interesting.
What are the core apps for OE/OZ?
I thought the newsletter said that the next releases of OZ were ditching Opie in favour of GPE.
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I'm still pretty satisfied with the 5500 and I think it will use it for another couple of years.
A new release of OZ is imminent (no, we're not moving to GPE, we just integrated it into the build system, so that we can ship bootstrap images, Opie images, GPE images, etc.), most 2.6 kernel work is done for collie, and people seem to be very satisfied with the new breed of applications, e.g. kdepimpi, wellenreiter (although picky about its environment), opie-eye, opie-mail3, and the like.
Same goes for my C7x0, although support for it is a bit less good, much due to the amount of closed source - read Qtopia/Sharp, AtiCore, libsl, etc.
As much as OpenEmbedded is concerned, this received so much interest beyond the Zaurus community that it will be much more useful than we ever thought.
Mickey, I'm really glad to hear you say this. Where should we track this "imminent" release? Here? Openembedded.org? Openzaurus.org?
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Provided that I don't get hit by a bus, OZ 3.5.1 will be announced and available for download somewhere in September @ the OpenZaurus site.
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That's scary, don't get hit by a bus!
Are you the main co-ordinator/developer?
Seeing as September is only days away, will people be impressed with OZ 3.5?
I'm rather liking 3.3.5 which is on my Z now, as none of the sharp variants would run my new Wifi card.
Does OZ 3.5 allow the Hancom 1.5 apps to install?
Is OZ 3.5 Opie still or GPE or either?
Does anyone else want to contribute their thoughts based on my original post?
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Seeing as September is only days away, will people be impressed with OZ 3.5?
Yes, it's nice (I have it on my 5500).
Does OZ 3.5 allow the Hancom 1.5 apps to install?
Er, all of the OZ releases have allowed them to install - assuming you get an ipk with a properly formed control file.
Is OZ 3.5 Opie still or GPE or either?
Either.
Si
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Provided that I don't get hit by a bus, OZ 3.5.1 will be announced and available for download somewhere in September @ the OpenZaurus site.
Please, walk with care: look both side of the road before cross
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Er, all of the OZ releases have allowed them to install - assuming you get an ipk with a properly formed control file.
Seeing as the downloads from the ZUG don't have properly formed control files, would it be possible for someone to repair them and reupload them before OZ 3.5 goes live?
Is OZ 3.5 Opie still or GPE or either?
Either.
Are the apps consistent between the environments? Or do they differ, which environment is the most productive? Are there apps which will only install on one environment and not the other? Which environment is likely to get the most attention as OE advances?
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Seeing as the downloads from the ZUG don't have properly formed control files, would it be possible for someone to repair them and reupload them before OZ 3.5 goes live?
If I have time, I will have a look at them (I have a thesis to write! - damn!).
Are the apps consistent between the environments? Or do they differ, which environment is the most productive? Are there apps which will only install on one environment and not the other? Which environment is likely to get the most attention as OE advances?
A GPE app won't run under Opie and vice versa. The apps differ, the GPE and Opie apps were developed independantly, however the same sorts of things are available for both.
I presume both will get lots of attention. Take a look at www.handhelds.org and you can find a list of apps, screen-shots, etc. for GPE and Opie.
Si
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Poor you, my best friend is having thesis stress too.
Which environment and apps are likely to get the most attention? Which shows the best potential?
I know it's all about choice and so forth, but having so many environments seems like a facture of effort and resources that could be spent making one unified amazing environment. Just my belief on the matter. Look how much better Palm/Pocket PC is compared to the Linux offerings, perhaps not just due to being a commerical product, which helps I know, but perhaps also due to a greater focus in objective. Maybe.
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BTW, I know this topic has taken a bit of a turn, so I'm curious to know if anyone else has any thoughts and feelings about the future/lifespan of the Z5500
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I know this topic has taken a bit of a turn
:-), true, my last comment then.
but having so many environments seems like a facture of effort and resources that could be spent making one unified amazing environment
It's only two environments - Opie (framebuffer GUI) and GPE (X11 w. Matchbox GUI): the GPE packages should be able to install on an 'Opie' machine and be run through something like XQt. There are two groups of people doing this - those from familiar (iPAQ) who have always been X11 based and those from OZ who have always been framebuffer based.
In truth the two will continue anyway, so it's best to have them close together, hopefully then some cross-pollination will occur - the iPAQs have 2.6.x kernels already for example - and also in terms of the apps and the backends (PIM db, etc.), making moving from one to the other easier.
Si
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The SL5500 is still a great machine. I had a pocketPC before and it was not that great. Most of the software you had to buy. And if it had bugs or didn't work right, too bad. Most Zaurus software is free. And the software you buy for it is usually very well done and worth it.
The Z does everything I need it to do and then some.
My experience with OZ/Linux/Zaurus has been that if want it to do something there is almost always a way. To illustrate I'll go over a common daily routine:
-Z wakes up and syncs a few files with my home computer. (Secure Shell)
-It jumps on the internet and loads weather radar images and the NOAA tabular weather report. I ride a motorcycle so this is important to me. (wget and Opera)
-Then the Z starts streaming internet radio. (Xmms)
-It shuts down the radio and speaks "The time is now 6:00am." (flite16)
-I Wardrive into work. (Kismet/Wellenreiter)
-Get into work and set the Z in the usb cradle
-The Z syncs my calendar info not with my PC, but and internet account. It's safer that way. I then sync my PC's calendar info from the same internet account. (KOPI/SSH)
-I connect to the Z from my PC and check for any interesting data from my ride into work. Note: There is a command line program called "strings" (already on the Z) that will print only ascii strings from kismet data.
-I start up Winamp on my PC and listen to music stored on the Z. We're not supposed to have mp3/ogg files on the PC's. (Samba)
I don't know what it would take to do all that with PocketPC, but I'm sure it would be painful to get it all set up. In fact, Microsoft has probably dropped support for my old PocketPC. No more Operating System upgrades and eventually no more compatible software. While my Z is alive and well and waiting for the latest OE OS.
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That sounds very impressive, but also absurdly complicated.
I wouldn't have a clue how to do some of the things you talk about and I also wouldn't have known that such things could be done. I will admit that I'm not of the nature to faff in such a way so as to get it to do stuff like that either.
Perhaps what is really needed is a resource on how to get more out of the Zaurus?
But it also high lights something I made a reference to earlier. The Zaurus is a great machine if you want to do lots of non standard things, but pretty poor if you want to do simple, standard type things.
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The Zaurus is a great machine if you want to do lots of non standard things, but pretty poor if you want to do simple, standard type things.
Absolutely right, though I must add that you shouldn't forget that - from a software engineers perspective - it's the simple things which are really hard to implement.
Shielding the user from the inner complexity is a very complicated and time consuming task. Consider the simple example of a nearly self-configuring network settings which - upon card insertion - leads you through the configure process by asking a couple of simple questions. To implement such an obviously "simple thing" you need to write wrappers for a couple of different user land interfaces and daemons, you need to write hotplug, pcmcia, and apm glue, and much more.
PalmOS got that right but they use i) a much more simple and less flexible base operating system, ii) worked with much more people and it iii) matured over the years. Essentially an evolution which Linux based PDA GUIs will go through eventually. KDE 1 wasn't simple either, however KDE 3 is something I could install on my mother-in-law's PC.
Unfortunately, the PDA OSS community is fragmented and split up, and has a misratio of developers to users. This doesn't mean that we (as the PDA community) won't get there at all, but it means that it will take a LOT of time to get there - at least if we don't get some paid full time developers or much more part time volunteers.
P.S. Sorry for hijacking the thread again, but that had to be said
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I still love my 5500. I run the same old Sharp ROM (3.1) as I have since it came out. I guess if I used more networking/wireless features, I might understand why people are anxious for a continually advancing OS, but I don't so I don't. What I like best about the Z is what drew me to it originally: it is expandable (SD and CF cards) and uploadable (JAVA apps). I use it as a mobile computer and only accidentally as a word processor/PIM.
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Mickeyl,
How's the bus dodging?
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Nothing in sight.... aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhh
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Two came at once?
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I have been lurking for quite awhile and this topic made me register. I have a palm 505, Z5500 and now a Axim X5. I have all the problems that I have with the Z with these others. The Z loads apps way faster than the Axim. The Axim is a at work tool that I did not buy. It will not see the internet on the cradle. Now the Palm does all the PIM stuff great and I have used it to run analysis programs that I would usually use a laptop for. But it no longer syncs in the usb cradle and palm support is as bad as can be.
Bottom line is the Z5500 is a real computer and I can do lots of things that are only "linux" possible.
The Axim is pretty but is hunkier than the others.
The palm will serve until it dies.
So does the 5500 have life. I would say two more years easy! I also only paid 150 for it which is way cheaper than the others. Enjoy
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I will agree that the Zaurus is more like a micro laptop than a standard PDA thanks to the Linux Operating System. That was one of the main reasons why I bought it, because it seemed to be significantly more flexible than a Palm or a PocketPC.
I think the only things that have let the Zaurus down are:
Lack of Sharp's involvement in promoting the device and evolving it's applications, this is well documented, so I'll say no more.
The way that it's more niche than mainstream, again as as a result of the applications being more for more advance linux users than for the average everyday user.
However, for a two year old PDA, I've managed to keep mine in pretty good condition (partly thanks to buying a good case for it the second I got it) and recently having abandoned the sharp roms for OZ, thanks to buying a wireless card for it and only being able to get it to work under OZ, I'm finding I'm using it more and more again.
If OE does get up a head of steam, perhaps that will re-ignite the developer community behind linux hand helds, which you never know, might reawaken demand for Zaurii....
However, I do personally think we'll end up using other devices that are more readily available globally. When my Z5500 does die through old age, I won't be buying another Zaurus, not even an import, unless it's really special!!
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When my Z5500 does die through old age, I won't be buying another Zaurus, not even an import, unless it's really special!!
How true. I should have mentioned that I have a closet full of amiga computers as well. They also were not promoted and are still quite amazing computers.
Sharp headed down the same path. MicroSoft if all powerfull and will probably "win" in the end.
As a side note I went to my daughters college and almost of of them were packing IPODS. I payed 269 US for hers. Can you imagine how nice it would be to have a z with a 20g hardrive built in. The size of the pod does not seem to matter to them.
That is what I really want, a c860 with a 20g hd, 10 hours of battery life for less than 500 US.
My Z5500 will do most of this but the cost is much higher.
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That is what I really want, a c860 with a 20g hd, 10 hours of battery life for less than 500 US.
See the Archos AV 500 series, it's an MP3/Video player and recorder which has a 20/40/80gb HD and a Qtopia Linux PDA built in. I'm saving and ditching both my iPod and my Zaurus and also probably won't even need to take my laptop on some trips.
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I have the SL5500 and an iPaq 2215. The pim on the Z is more capable than the pim included with the iPaq. I use Pocket Informant on the 2215 now. It blows away any other PIM I have seen. The Z is my work machine. To make a 2215 work as well and do what I need, I would have to spend $150 to $200 or more. To be fair, the 2215 has better handwriting recognition, a better screen, built-in speaker, built-in mic, and better pay software availability. I use the iPaq as an entertainment device. Like I said earlier, the Z is for work, the iPaq is for play. I will continue to use my SL5500 until it breaks or I can afford an 860.
Just my $0.02 worth.
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omro,
First, thanks for asking such great questions! I have recently become interested in my 5500 again after several months of neglecting it (mostly because I broke my wifi CF card and never bought a new one). We have Dell Axim X5's at work (though we rarely use them). I have found myself using it more and more but I can't stand the irregular size of it. It's big and bulky and doesn't fit in my pocket very well at all. It also doesn't have a keyboard, which I find extremely useful on my Z. And most of the software for it is commercial and not free.
So now that I'm back in the mood to use a PDA, I want my Z back in action again. I want the slim design, the integrated keyboard, and the Linux OS. I run Linux exclusively at home, on my laptop and I have a Linux box I use at work (primary box is XP, though).
Today is the first day in a LONG time that I've pulled this site up and I'm glad to see a new version of OZ coming out. I've never heard of OE or GPE but they both sound very interesting. Thanks, mickeyl, for taking the time out to continue development on OZ. I can't wait to try the new version!
Again, omro, thanks for asking a lot of great questions. I have learned a lot about the current status of things from this one post alone.
--------------------
SL5500 w/ OZ 3.2
256 SD card
Dell Axim X5
Dell TrueMobile 1180 WiFi
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Welcome back davisfactor.
I'm currently running the release candidate of what will become OZ 3.5.1 next week and I have a very good feeling. It surely is not perfect but since it has been developed from scratch we have a very solid base for more frequent releases and lots of bugfixes when we are steering towards OZ 3.6.0 - the first stable tree since OZ 3.2.
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Thanks for the thanks davisfactor! I do believe that the people who are actually developing OE and OZ deserve immeasureable thanks for their work which makes the Zaurus a device worth coming back to, even after some time off! Mickeyl and those he works with certainly require our gratitude!