OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vice on November 24, 2004, 02:05:18 am
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I will be living in Tokyo for one year, starting in April. I currently have a cannon wordtank, but kanji look up is still rather cumbersome. I am interested in the ability to hand draw kanji, and Zaurus are well known for this. I am a Computer Science major and like to play with Linux, but cannot convince myself to buy one for just that reason.
My question is about the Japanese software that comes standard, and any other programs that are helpful for Japanese study. Any map programs would also be great.
I was hoping to find another student of Japanese who could let me know of there experiences.
Also, I would like to know what model would suit me best. Is it worth it to go up to c3000? Or will the c860 or later models suffice?
Thanks for any help
Vice
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If you're looking for a capable japanese dictionary PDA I'd suggest you take a look at the MI series first before thinking about buying one from the SL series.
The SL-series has the same input methods but it lacks good dictionaries afaik.
There's Kanji-Nirvana and maybe a few others but its still far away quality-and quantity-wise from what you can get for the MI-models.
This is the MI-21:
[img]http://www.kodai1.ed.jp/kadaiken/pasokon/mie21.gif\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-image\" /]
It can play MP3s, has a CF slot and 64MB RAM.
However it doesn't run linux but otherwise it wouldn't be able to use the dictionaries from this (http://zaurus.biojapan.de/) site which are quite good.
Hope this helps.
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The SL-series has the same input methods but it lacks good dictionaries afaik.
Now, you made me curious. Which dictionaries does the M series have that would be better than any dictionaries from Kenkyuusha, Iwanami, Sanseidou, Koujien, etc.
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Vice:
Though you mentioned being able to use other software, to make this easier to answer, let's assume your main (only) purpose for getting a Zaurus would be for use as as a Japanese dictionary/study tool.
One big question then comes to mind... do you plan to continue studying Japanese after your year in Japan is up? If not, the Zaurus might not be the best choice, financially speaking. If you really want a dictionary that allows hand-drawn input, you might be better off getting one of Sharp's older non-Linux Zaurus models, some of which can apparently be bought for less than $100. As you already have a Wordtank, the two together should be more than enough to get you through a year here.
If you do plan to continue studying Japanese, the Linux Zaurus line has plenty of tools to cover most needs. Available software includes sljisho (included on Cx60 models), zdict (C3000's dictionary software), zten, zbedic, kanjinirvana, and my own knQuiz (*plug*). In addition, you can also use the Zaurus to read Japanese ebooks, manga, and webpages (whether live or saved locally).
Is it worth getting the C3000? The selling point in your case (aside from the included dictionaries) would be the internal 4GB microdrive. If you plan to carry a lot of data with you, a large CF/Microdrive or SD card is necessary - my dictionary directory alone takes up 1.6GB.
I would suggest try-before-buy, if possible. In fact, you might be better off waiting until you get to Japan before you buy one; it will give you a chance to see what's available, and by that time prices will probably have dropped a bit.
Of course, if you're really just looking for an excuse to buy a new toy, and you've got money burning a hole in your pocket, then I don't know if my advice really makes a difference (^_^)
(P.S.: As I was writing this, I noticed Razzle beat me to the punch. One thing to note, though, is that many (most?) of the dictionary files listed on ZOK can be used on the Linux series. One place where the older models _may_ fair better than the Linux models, though, is outdoors - the screens on the Linux models are hard to read outside. An old MI model (black and white?) may work better.)
- ashikase
- anpachi, gifu, japan
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zdict (C3000's dictionary software)
Ok, what did they change this time? Do they still use the JISPA format?
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halx:
zdict is based off of the zten codebase; as such, it can use the same formats as zten. It includes some nice improvements over the original zten (not counting ztenv), such as a cleaned-up interface and a bookmark feature.
I still prefer sljisho for some things, though; it's much easier to switch between Japanese-Japanese and Japanese-English dictionaries with sljisho. Also, zdict doesn't include the nice 'pop-up definition window' feature.
- ashikase
- anpachi, gifu, japan
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zdict is based off of the zten codebase
Ah, interesting. Did Sharp make the improvements? There is no sljisho anymore on the 3000?
I just see that Sharp's web page mentions Koujien and Genius as denshijisho.
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Yeah, C3000 does not include sljisho. It does, however, still include slgdbk, the kanji lookup program, though the same information (and more) can be found in Koujien.
- ashikase
- anpachi, gifu, japan
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The SL-series has the same input methods but it lacks good dictionaries afaik.
Now, you made me curious. Which dictionaries does the M series have that would be better than any dictionaries from Kenkyuusha, Iwanami, Sanseidou, Koujien, etc.
Since my statement was based on personal experience (-> "afaik") I hope you will forgive me if I'm incorrect. I was looking for a suitable dictionary for my SL5500 for quite a while but gave up when a friend recommended the site I mentioned above. Also afaik the dictionaries posted there are incompatible with the SL series (see compatibility-column).
Since you seem to be know better dictionaries (are they compatible with the SL6000?) could you maybe post a link here where they are available for download/buying?
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First, thank you for the information, this ML might be all I need, but I would like to make sure.
I have been studying Japanese for a few years, and will continue to study after my year in Japan. It is highly probable that I will be spending much of the next ten years between the US and Japan.
If the higher end units are better as dictionaries, then I want one. However, if the ML works just as well, then the ML is all I need.
What I really want is, the *best* Japanese dictionary, that fits into the smallest space. I do not want to throw money away. If the differences between the ML and C3000 are negligible then a ML unit would be the better choice.
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Since my statement was based on personal experience (-> "afaik") I hope you will forgive me if I'm incorrect. I was looking for a suitable dictionary for my SL5500 for quite a while but gave up when a friend recommended the site I mentioned above. Also afaik the dictionaries posted there are incompatible with the SL series (see compatibility-column).
Since you seem to be know better dictionaries (are they compatible with the SL6000?) could you maybe post a link here where they are available for download/buying?
First of all, those dictionaries are not incompatible with a hardware device. They might be incompatible with viewer SOFTWARE, however. For the Linux based Zaurus there is at least zten (based on the EB library) which can read and display most EPWING/EB*(denshi book) dictionaries. This format is quite popular in Japan and platform independent. Publishing companies sell many of their dictionaries in this format (a somewhat outdated but still useful site is here (http://www.yo.rim.or.jp/%7emono93/mobile/linuxzau/dic_able.html)).
For a start have a look at my Zaurus page (http://www.hloeffler.info/zaurus/).
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Vice:
What is considered the "best" dictionary is really a matter of opinion; the best dictionary is really whatever best suits your needs and is easiest for you to use and understand.
If money is not a concern, and you do plan to use the device for things other than studying Japanese, another thing to consider is other available software.
The Linux models have a lot of software available (though not always the easiest to setup/port), and has a lot of programming options if you ever plan to write your own (you mentioned that you study CompSci).
I've never personally used an MI-series model, but as far as I know, most - if not all - of the software for the series is Japanese-only; depending on your current Japanese ability, this could be a problem. I've been tempted to buy an (VGA) MI model myself, though, as the platform appears to have some interesting programs. If you want to check out software available for the MI series, try searching for Zaurus MI pages that mention "MORE" soft.
- ashikase
- anpachi, gifu, japan
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What I really want is, the *best* Japanese dictionary, that fits into the smallest space. I do not want to throw money away. If the differences between the ML and C3000 are negligible then a ML unit would be the better choice.
There is at least a big difference in the hardware between those models (the C3000 is the first one with a 4GB harddrive, some of them come with keyboards added). We are talking about several years of development here.
And, what's the "best" dictionary? Probably you should first try to get an overview of possible candiates (as I said in the other post, hardware is not so much of an issue here).
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Razzle:
Many of the commercial dictionaries come in formats (such as EPWING) which can be easily read by/converted to work with the SL series.
As for the dictionaries mentioned on ZOK... the C3000 comes with Koujien and Genius. I use Eijiro on my Z with zten. EDICT, of course, works fine on the Z. I can't comment on Nihonshi as I've never tried it.
If you do a search on the ZUG, there are also some specialized free dictionaries available that someone linked to at one time (sorry, I don't have the link anymore).
- ashikase
- anpachi, gifu, japan
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I use an 860, substantially for Japanese learning (living in Japan now) but also for some other work (writing papers and presentations using LaTeX, general note-taking/alarm stuff, email and web, listening to music while doing soul-destroying programming in the terminal room :-). I'm very pleased with how it has worked out.
For a beginner, zten with edict/kanjidic (see halx's web page) is definitely the way to go. Once you are up to speed a bit more, the in-built dictionary is probably a little better. Kanji handwriting recognition is very useful.
One thing that is missing IMO is a good flashcard program. I wrote a very simple one for myself in Java.
James
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jamesannan:
I wrote knQuiz for myself to use as a kanji/compound quiz tool, though whether it is good or useful as a flashcard program, I don't know.
- ashikase
- anpachi, gifu, japan
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knQuiz is very nice. But not quite the same thing. Unless I'm missing something you can't set it up to show the kanji/word and have to guess meaning, can you?
James
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Vice, I seem to be having the same problem as you. I'm going to be living in Tokyo starting in September (at Waseda Daigaku). I'm also looking at electronic dictionaries and the Zaurus.
It seems there are two main Japanese-English (J-E) and English-Japanese dictionaries (E-J). The Genius and Kenkyusha
Dictionary Guide (http://www.silverace.com/japanese/ejd/) seem to be the most respected. There is no electronic dictionary that contains a both Kenkyusha and Genius (J-E) and (E-J). Although lots seem to carry both (E-J) and only one (E-J). The Kenkyusha is supposed to have easier sample sentences and thus a better choice until you become more fluent in Japanese.
Anyway the new Sharp comes with the Genius (J-E) and (E-J) and the standard (J-J), but this is what you can find in a bottom of the line $200 Japanese Electronic Dictionary. Couple that with the fact that the Sharp C-3000 is $750, really makes you wonder if the Kanji handwriting recognition is worth that extra 550 dollars.
A good option might be to buy a 100 dollar older sharp (for Kanji handwriting recognition) and keep your Canon Wordtank (hopefully a G50). You will have to carry around two devices, but you will save lots of money. At first you might have to look up lots of Kanji but hopefully by the end of the year you will know Kanji well enough that you won't have to consult the Sharp often. Think of it as added motivation.
You do have to consider that the Sharp has lots of functionality besides dictionaries. I would say this is a big advantage if not for the rapid advancement of Japanese Keitai (cellphones). I'm assuming you will own one because they are pretty much manditory for living in Japan nowadays. The money spent on a subscription plan would be far better spent then on any PDA or dictionary. It's impossible to have a social life (and thus learn Japanese) without one. Anyways Japanese Keitai should be able to do all the PIM and contact functionality of a Zaurus. They are now starting to be able to play movies and music as well. The only thing you may lose out on is notetaking ability but the older Zaurus would suffice in that regard.
So I'm not saying that you shouldn't buy a new Zaurus. In fact if the prices drop enough and I make good enough money teaching private English lessons in Japan I plan to buy one.
An additonal note while Edict is a good dictionary, I do not view it as suffienct for a serious student of Japanese. It is technically only a (J-E) dictionary and trying to translate the other way around is a nightmare. Furthermore it does not have enough entries and has no example sentences and thus is not up to the level of a Genius or Kenkyusha. But regardless it is more than adequete to look up Kanji with handwriting recognition.
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An additonal note while Edict is a good dictionary, I do not view it as suffienct for a serious student of Japanese. It is technically only a (J-E) dictionary and trying to translate the other way around is a nightmare. Furthermore it does not have enough entries and has no example sentences and thus is not up to the level of a Genius or Kenkyusha. But regardless it is more than adequete to look up Kanji with handwriting recognition.
Both Kenkyusha and Genius are available in EPWING format but cost additional money of course (daijiten is 16.000 Yen each) if you don't have them already/are already preloaded.
I agree with you about EDICT but it should be noted that example sentences are available (see link above). For kanji you have KanjiDic which is quite good for a free dictionary.
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knQuiz is very nice. But not quite the same thing. Unless I'm missing something you can't set it up to show the kanji/word and have to guess meaning, can you?
James
In the version I use, you can (^_^)
I really ought to release a new version... there is some more stuff that I would like to fix, but really haven't had the time or interest lately. Maybe I can get it wrapped up this weekend.
I just dread having to write documentation to explain the new changes (^_^;)
- ashikase
- anpachi, gifu, japan
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theuserdylan:
Until keitai have full keyboards (or some other improved input method), they will not replace my Zaurus, even if just for PIM functionality. As much as I like my phone, I *despise* typing with it.
I also agree with you about EDICT... it's not bad, but I find many of the definitions lacking (same goes for KANJIDIC). I guess you get what you pay for, though... can't really complain since it's free.
- ashikase
- anpachi, gifu, japan
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... it's not bad, but I find many of the definitions lacking (same goes for KANJIDIC)
Though it might be useful to just a few people reading here: The German KanjiDic is much more comprehensive than the English and Spanish versions.
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ashikase,
If you are looking for ideas for additional functionality, I reckon that a flashcard program should have some sort of ranking/scoring system so that better known cards turn up less often as you learn them more reliably. Like in Kanji Gold or JFC (IMO the former method is better). It saves the user from having to spend all their time sorting out files of cards by hand...
Maybe knquiz already does something like this, I haven't really used it much at all.
Sorry for the thread hijack!
James
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jamesannan:
Right now, I have no plans to add any additional functionality. That's the major reason I got tired of the project... I was spending most of my time working on the code, and hardly any time actually using it.
As I said, though, I hope to release a new version soon.
- ashikase
- anpachi, gifu, japan
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knQuiz is very nice. But not quite the same thing. Unless I'm missing something you can't set it up to show the kanji/word and have to guess meaning, can you?
Hi.
I'm living in Tokyo and (when I have time) use an SL860 to help my study.
Anyway, the mioSuite software might be what you are looking for.
http://miosuite.sourceforge.net/index.html (http://miosuite.sourceforge.net/index.html)
Maybe the author is too busy studying (in Germany I think) to work on it now, but it works well when you figure it out. You can have different sets of flashcards, though you will want to create your own as the ones that come with it are for the accompanying version of Tim's Japanese Tutorial.
It has built in dictionary lookup, and then with one click you can add that entry to the current flashcard list. It would be great to see more work done on this software.
Cheers,
Nick.
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Thanks for the information.
I am still unsure of what to do. It seems using the device only for studying Japanese, might not be worth the investment. I will wait until I can see one of these before I take the plunge.
Now about these older model Zaurus’, would anyone know about to purchase one of these?
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I am still unsure of what to do. It seems using the device only for studying Japanese, might not be worth the investment.
Certainly, for this purpose only it seems quite an expensive device. But did you consider buying second hand? You will be in Tokyo as you said and you will certainly have time to visit Akihabara. There you will certainly be able to make a good bargain (also with new devices).
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Thanks for the information.
I am still unsure of what to do. It seems using the device only for studying Japanese, might not be worth the investment. I will wait until I can see one of these before I take the plunge.
Now about these older model Zaurus’, would anyone know about to purchase one of these?
Sofmap stores usually have a small selection of older Japanese-only Zaurii, as well as used SLC-XXX.