OESF Portables Forum
General Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: speculatrix on August 30, 2005, 08:06:42 am
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http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/6114.html (http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/6114.html)
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Is it just me, or does anyone else lose all interest the moment they see that it runs Windows?
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Is it just me, or does anyone else lose all interest the moment they see that it runs Windows?
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well, true, it's a sad waste of good hardware.. but, inevitably, someone will try and get linux running on it. WinCE will, after all, make the device useful as a boot-loader if nothing else!!!
the good news is that, being a mobile phone, it will be subsidised by a few cellcos.. and we'll have a laugh at their attempts to DRM it and prevent third party applications running.
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well, if it sells at about $1,100 as I read somewhere (free, non-operator locked), then I also lose interest ...
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Maybe you know something that I don't, but I would doubt a linux port would ever happen without tmobile's help. How many other pda's were ported let alone pda/cellphone/gprs? HP/IPAQ gave help to the familiar project AFAIK
well, true, it's a sad waste of good hardware.. but, inevitably, someone will try and get linux running on it. WinCE will, after all, make the device useful as a boot-loader if nothing else!!!
the good news is that, being a mobile phone, it will be subsidised by a few cellcos.. and we'll have a laugh at their attempts to DRM it and prevent third party applications running.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=93786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
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well, if it sells at about $1,100 as I read somewhere (free, non-operator locked), then I also lose interest ...
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these things are always hideously overpriced when they first appear on the market... wait for the initial rush to subside before jumping in.
doubtless the nokia tablet will begin to appear at a nice price sometime.
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430 euro with subscription is not so much. I can have c1000 for it maybe ... Only if it has dual boot linux, I'd go for it :-). But anyway it is great piece of hardware. Sharp could look at that device and create something similar with SL c5000??? device
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/31/t-...hips_universal/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/31/t-mobile_ships_universal/)
"The telco said it will charge €500 (£342/$611) for the device and a two-year contract for its Relax 100 tariff. With BusinessRelax 100 tariff, the price falls to €431 (£295/$527)."
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Maybe you know something that I don't, but I would doubt a linux port would ever happen without tmobile's help. How many other pda's were ported let alone pda/cellphone/gprs? HP/IPAQ gave help to the familiar project AFAIK
well, true, it's a sad waste of good hardware.. but, inevitably, someone will try and get linux running on it. WinCE will, after all, make the device useful as a boot-loader if nothing else!!!
the good news is that, being a mobile phone, it will be subsidised by a few cellcos.. and we'll have a laugh at their attempts to DRM it and prevent third party applications running.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=93786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
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Lets see, all Dell Axims now have at least the kernel booting, and they have no help from Dell/HTC. There's also several Toshibas with fully working distros, and I'm pretty sure the Toshiba didn't help in anyway. No open-source GPRS, afaik, currently(Motorola's Linux powered phones have a closed-source module for it). However, with a savant working on it and/or diligence as part of a team to crack it, it can be done. Then there's always the possibliity of a wrapper for use of the Windows CE driver. (ala NTFS write and NDIS wireless)
Having full specs and support certainly helps in porting Linux to a device, but is not absolutely required.
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wouldnt touch this with a 10 foot poll!
even when you purchase...money still goes to microsoft regardless
i say forget about it!!!!
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Is it just me, or does anyone else lose all interest the moment they see that it runs Windows?
Point me to a running Linux phone with a keyboard and a VGA screen?
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I was wondering if we could persuade Trolltech to talk to HTC and get them to port their trolltech rom to it? What would it take to get HTC to listen to a smaller group of people, or do you think they'll have signed a "WinCE only" deal with Microsoft?
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I was wondering if we could persuade Trolltech to talk to HTC and get them to port their trolltech rom to it? What would it take to get HTC to listen to a smaller group of people, or do you think they'll have signed a "WinCE only" deal with Microsoft?
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You are probably more likely to convince sharp to release new clamshell zaurus phone with all this connectivity included plus a much better screen (from 6000). Not much porting would be reqired. But of course sharp does not listen to what customers want so even though this is somewhat more likely I would not hold my breath waiting for it.
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Is it just me, or does anyone else lose all interest the moment they see that it runs Windows?
Point me to a running Linux phone with a keyboard and a VGA screen?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
No kidding. The reflexive dismissal of anything WinCE is pretty asinine, especially when it can do some things way better than our beloved Z's (e.g. mapping programs, mindmapping programs, etc.)
SNi
HP200lx -> Nokia 9290 -> SL-C700 -> SL-C3000
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The screen and keyboard look impressive and it looks slimmer than the Z
I have always wished the Z had keys more like those on a psion 5 and those do look more like that.
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Windows, Slippery looking keyboard, Have to deal with cellphone vendors, big looking, (HUGE screen borders on sides!) No real succesful PPC-Linux history, $$$$
Not for me.
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Personally, I would love to have a Z sized clamshell device that runs Windows. It would be great for compatibility and running every application my desktops do at work (where we use Windows). However, I don't see many such devices that run WINDOWS, they run CE. The cool thing about the Z is it doesn't run some other OS that looks like Linux, it really runs Linux. I can really run real applications on it, not just applications that look like real ones that were recoded for my OS. Besides, anything that can run XP should be able to easily dual-boot into Linux.
I think what we all really want is for PDA's to become like PC's. Where the hardware is standard, even if it is tightly integrated, so that we can choose our OS and share drivers between devices.
Or maybe we just need PC's to become as small as PDA's, and then the point will be moot.
Personally, i want to see the modular PDA system, where your base component (CPU, etc) is one box, and then you can buy any "interface" device you want. The "brains" would just be a small box that fits in your pocket, or bag, or maybe is part of your cell phone. Since it would have no I/O (just wireless and a small USB port) it would be very small and could be shaped to fit things like a pocket, or even strap to your side, because you never need to get it out. Then you have a display device with maybe an integrated input device, or mayber not that is separate and communicates wirelessly. An open standard, of course, so that multiple vendors could supply these. Eventually you could then use the video in your sunglasses with it, or your cell phone display, or your LCD credit card in your wallet, or all three. You could get a new "brain box" and keep using your existing I/O components.
Of course, it needs to be wide open standards, so we can choose from who we buy our "brain box" from too, and so that we can boot any OS we want onto it.
I really feel like Microsoft sees the PDA as a way to reclaim their stranglehold on a platform. The dsektop is too open for them. They are in the place of having to cater to the hardware that is there, and having to compete with other OS's. Microsoft sees the PDA as an opportunity to have the hardware catering to them, and to elliminate all competition. Just like the carrier locked cell phones, Microsoft likes to see "OS locked" devices, which PDA's are very close to. Like phones, they can be unlocked, but it isn't easy, and certainly isn't something the average consumer even thinks about doing.
I do watch all portable Windows XP platforms with great interest, but so far they are much bulkier than the Z, and the C760 really is about at the absolute limit of being a pocket machine for me. Not to mention that they are all rather expensive.
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I was wondering if we could persuade Trolltech to talk to HTC and get them to port their trolltech rom to it? What would it take to get HTC to listen to a smaller group of people, or do you think they'll have signed a "WinCE only" deal with Microsoft?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94058\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
That's not quite the way it'd work. HTC was a launch partner for Windows Mobile 5.0, so I highly doubt they'd finance any kind of porting effort.
Trolltech or Familiar might be able to pry the specs out of them (doubtful), but even then, there's no good phone/messaging management software for embedded Linux, nor camera/video management, so you're looking at quite a bit of work.
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No good phone/messaging software?
IIRC you have an audiovox and a 3100 ? Then if you can find 5 minutes to help me debug zedialler, you'll get that. Tested on euroclié 3000 - works fine, able to send/receive calls.
Guylhem
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No good phone/messaging software?
IIRC you have an audiovox and a 3100 ? Then if you can find 5 minutes to help me debug zedialler, you'll get that. Tested on euroclié 3000 - works fine, able to send/receive calls.
Guylhem
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I was wondering : We have (thanks to Qtopia.net) Qtopia v2.xx and Qtopia Phone Edition : How much work does it should take to bring out from qtopia phone edition and port to Qtopia, the specific progs for calling ?
Want to say that you make a great job,Guylhem, but progs from Qtopia PE,are they unusable ?
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Is it just me, or does anyone else lose all interest the moment they see that it runs Windows?
Point me to a running Linux phone with a keyboard and a VGA screen?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Why? Do you want incoming calls while you're in the middle of something on your handheld computer?
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Is it just me, or does anyone else lose all interest the moment they see that it runs Windows?
Point me to a running Linux phone with a keyboard and a VGA screen?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
No kidding. The reflexive dismissal of anything WinCE is pretty asinine, especially when it can do some things way better than our beloved Z's (e.g. mapping programs, mindmapping programs, etc.)
SNi
HP200lx -> Nokia 9290 -> SL-C700 -> SL-C3000
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94406\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
The reflexive assumption that everyone has the same uses for their handhelds as you is pretty asinine. That's why I posted a question, rather than trying to post my opinion as a statement on behalf of everyone.
My Z is most useful to me as a network tool, something it does much better, IMO, than any Windows-based handheld.
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If bluetooth headsets are employed, this should be a non issue.
Why? Do you want incoming calls while you're in the middle of something on your handheld computer?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94831\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
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IIRC you have an audiovox and a 3100 ? Then if you can find 5 minutes to help me debug zedialler, you'll get that. Tested on euroclié 3000 - works fine, able to send/receive calls.
What happens when I want to place a call out of my address book? Send an SMS? Get a sent/received/bounced call list? Drivable with a D-pad the zaurus doesn't have?
Why? Do you want incoming calls while you're in the middle of something on your handheld computer?
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For the sake of the argument we'll pretend you're not trolling.
What happens when you're working on something on your Z and your phone rings?
You know what the difference would be with an integrated device? You don't fish your phone out of your pocket.
I'd like a keyboard to chat, not for the explicit purpose of being called when I work on something else, but I guess that makes too much sense.
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If bluetooth headsets are employed, this should be a non issue.
Why? Do you want incoming calls while you're in the middle of something on your handheld computer?
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Bluetooth headsets would solve one problem - but the big one here is battery life which does not seem like it can be improved enough to have a real phone replacement even if you get all software issues resolved (unless I have defective 860 battery and/or audiovox card best I can get with audiovox gprs is something like 40-50 minutes before battery is gone and zaurus locks up).
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Interesting debate, this. I'm undecided as to what to go for at the moment as my next PDA, and the choice is the HTC Universal or the Zaurus SL-C3100.
Up until recently, I've been using Windows CE exclusively on PDAs for a couple of years, with my favourite PDA still being an old-but-good Jornada 720. Prior to that, I was a Psion geek from the 3C through every device...
I bought an O2 XDA 2s in January which is a rebadged HTC Blue Angel. In short, I don't like the "molly coddling" attempts made by PocketPC to shield you from the power of a real computer in your hand. It second guesses when you should close an application, it hides the detail and abstracts it away... I *want* that detail! I suspect the HTC Universal with WM5 (WHY NOT JUST CE 5 AND A SHELL!!!) will do the same.
So I end up carrying a phone, and my Jornada 720 for power work.
The HTC Universal with its keyboard might be just what I want to replace the Blue Angel and 720 - or a smaller phone with the Jornada might be a better bet .
I have recently bought an SL5500 as a cheap entry into the Linux PDA world, and I must admit to being mightily impressed! It works, and works well, and being able to run a true X session on it is really quite amazing.
The major thing that keeps me on the WinCE platform is the development tool - Embedded Visual C++ is fantastic, and free, and a hell of a lot simpler for a Windows-based corporate user like me to use on the work-provided laptop that I have running XP SP2. Sure, I can run QEMU or boot linux, but frankly it's a pain compared to what I'm used to with EVC
Things digging at the back of my mind about the SL-C3100:
- screen: can we have the one from the 6000 in the 3x00 range, please?
- Lack of Wifi: nothing new about this complaint, but if they can put wifi in the 6000, what about the 3x00?
- Phone functionality: that'd be the ultimate, especially coupled with bluetooth.
- SDK for Windows with EVC-like IDE...
The Universal does appeal, but I'd really much rather it wasn't running the Windows Mobile shell... WinCE is fine by itself, thank you!
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Personally, I've found that the best thing for me is a phone & a Zaurus with bluetooth.
For a while I really wished my Z was a phone, and even researched CF cards to do that (there are other threads on that topic). Finally, though, I decided that what I needed was just a very small phone with bluetooth and a BT CF card for the Z.
This ends up working great. I surf on the Z anywhere, and the phone stays in my pocket.
The truth is, I carry the phone ALWAYS, but the Z sometimes stays in my glovebox or somewhere. It is small, but dosn't fit in my pockets in a way that is comfortable for me. The belt holster works great, but sometimes I just don't want to be bothered.
The only real reason I wish my Z WAS my phone, is that it would give me the excuse to carry it with me more. Sounds stupid, but is true.
As it turns out, my cell phone plays digital music and has a good calendar function that syncs with Oulook. So now my phone has taken two tasks away from my Z. I am definitely seeing why some say the 'smart phone' is the future. However, I have to have the keyboard and command prompt on my 'portable computer' and so the Z is it for now. I just consider myself to have an 'external modem' instead of an internal one. An external modem that happens to also play digital music and remind me of appointments too, which I find convenient for those times I don't want to cary my Z.
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Clofland, you absolutely echoed my sentiments and my way of looking at the Zaurus and a phone.
The other thing I am wary of when I think of a smartphone (or a Zaruss+phone combo) is that with US phone services, you are tied to one ISP for the phone and hence switching isnt that easy. With a new ISP, you generally need a new phone, thes making you carry two devices again (I know thesedays phones can be unlocked).
Beng so passionate about Linux I was looking a the Motorola A780 phone with PDA functions to be my new main phone, but then thought against it, since it certainly cant replace my Zaurus (I too need a command pormpt and also the tool set support on Zaurus is much more than on the A780).
The HTC never really appealed to me - either looks wise nor function wise since I dont want a bundling.
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Why? Do you want incoming calls while you're in the middle of something on your handheld computer?
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For the sake of the argument we'll pretend you're not trolling.
What happens when you're working on something on your Z and your phone rings?
You know what the difference would be with an integrated device? You don't fish your phone out of your pocket.
I'd like a keyboard to chat, not for the explicit purpose of being called when I work on something else, but I guess that makes too much sense.
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No need to pretend, I was honestly wondering why you prefer more integration. I like my Z as a handheld computer. It's always been my experience that the more purposes a device has, the less well suited it becomes for any of them.
I'm not a big fan of bluetooth, and owing to the fact that I use my Zaurus as a computer I usually have a wlan card in my CF slot and a storage card in my SD slot, so bluedevils' post never occured to me. I might consider a VOIP solution like the Magpie handheld is rumored to provide, as long as I didn't need it for incoming calls. My Z is usually is rarely literally in my hand, I'm either transporting it or working with it on a desk or table top. When my phone rings, I don't usually stop what I'm doing while I answering it, and I'm not a big fan of having my keystrokes diverted from the application I was using, so my guess is that incoming calls would probably be frustrating for me.
As for chatting, I chat on my Z almost daily using neic, and I frequent several different forums using Netfront.
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review posted on infosync
http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/n/6142.html (http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/n/6142.html)
"At 128 x 81 x 25 mm and a 285 g, the T-Mobile MDA Pro easily trumps even heavyweights such as Nokia's 9500 Communicator, yet remains surprisingly pocket friendly."
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/30/review_imate_jasjar/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/30/review_imate_jasjar/)
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an intesting full review... shows that this would be a fabulous PDA if running linux stably with a proper phone app, and that pocket windows 5 is far from stable.
http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/n/6265.html (http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/n/6265.html)
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/30/review_imate_jasjar/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/30/review_imate_jasjar/)
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- Winbloze is NOT a "pro". It's an unstable, bloated show-stopper. He even says 'Net Exploiter isn't as good as Blazer on Palm. What kind of stripped-down pablum is on that thing? Opera on the Z is a full web browser ... I only go to normal, full-blown web sites and never have any problem. Blazer can't do squat ... I know ... my wife won't even use it on her Treo 650 because it's so pathetic.
- This is a good write-up, though, and plainly showcases what an excellent piece of hardware it is. Now if they would just give it an operating system worthy of that hardware it could be a very nice machine.
- Personally, I'm with chiark. I have a phone, and a Z. If I'm at a WiFi hotspot I pop in the card and go. If I'm not, I pop in the BT card and use the cell phone. I'm carrying both devices, anyway, and quite frankly I have yet to see an integrated device that is as flexable or as powerful as my phone and my Z. Each device is tailored to its function, and works best in that realm. The wife is always having problems with phone calls coming in while she's doing things on her Treo. My phone never interrupts what the Z is doing, and vice-versa.
- That will ultimately change. But integrated devices are simply not ready for prime time, imho. (shrug) Probably never will be, for my purpose. I'm not looking for integration with the latest bull from Lord Gates because I never sync with anything for any reason. Why should I, when I always have the Z and it's always got the latest data in it? I'm definitely not interested in "ease of use" that explicitly prevents me from doing what I want to do. I do feel the population-at-large just wants things to work, and for reasons I will never understand, they seem to be perfectly willing to accept continual crashes, draconianly restrictive "applications", DRM, vendor lock-in, and heinously pathetic battery "life". Hence the HTC. It's a sad state of affairs.
- I'd not give up my Z if they paid me to take one of these pieces of Winjunk. Well, maybe for a million dollars. I'd drop it "by accident" one day, send it back, pocket the money, and get half a dozen C3100 units. (wolfish grin)
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/30/review_imate_jasjar/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/30/review_imate_jasjar/)
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- Winbloze is NOT a "pro". It's an unstable, bloated show-stopper. He even says 'Net Exploiter isn't as good as Blazer on Palm. What kind of stripped-down pablum is on that thing? Opera on the Z is a full web browser ... I only go to normal, full-blown web sites and never have any problem. Blazer can't do squat ... I know ... my wife won't even use it on her Treo 650 because it's so pathetic.
- This is a good write-up, though, and plainly showcases what an excellent piece of hardware it is. Now if they would just give it an operating system worthy of that hardware it could be a very nice machine.
- Personally, I'm with chiark. I have a phone, and a Z. If I'm at a WiFi hotspot I pop in the card and go. If I'm not, I pop in the BT card and use the cell phone. I'm carrying both devices, anyway, and quite frankly I have yet to see an integrated device that is as flexable or as powerful as my phone and my Z. Each device is tailored to its function, and works best in that realm. The wife is always having problems with phone calls coming in while she's doing things on her Treo. My phone never interrupts what the Z is doing, and vice-versa.
- That will ultimately change. But integrated devices are simply not ready for prime time, imho. (shrug) Probably never will be, for my purpose. I'm not looking for integration with the latest bull from Lord Gates because I never sync with anything for any reason. Why should I, when I always have the Z and it's always got the latest data in it? I'm definitely not interested in "ease of use" that explicitly prevents me from doing what I want to do. I do feel the population-at-large just wants things to work, and for reasons I will never understand, they seem to be perfectly willing to accept continual crashes, draconianly restrictive "applications", DRM, vendor lock-in, and heinously pathetic battery "life". Hence the HTC. It's a sad state of affairs.
- I'd not give up my Z if they paid me to take one of these pieces of Winjunk. Well, maybe for a million dollars. I'd drop it "by accident" one day, send it back, pocket the money, and get half a dozen C3100 units. (wolfish grin)
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I could not agree more - this is the best analysis I have read in a long time.