Author Topic: Specification Of "new" Linux Handhelds  (Read 10773 times)

ev1l

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Specification Of "new" Linux Handhelds
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2005, 03:08:44 pm »
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Well, I wouldn't cry if they added ram and a faster processor to the 3000, either. For the time being, a swapfile on the HD is doing well enough.

Manufacturer supported open-ness would have been very nice. Is anybody quite sure why Sharp decided to use the closed branch of Qtopia instead of the open one?
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True, a RAM increase would be good, especially for web-browsing.
Sharp probably decided it wasn't worth it (from a corporate point of view) to adhere to the quality standard of the mainline kernel (so they made no effor to contribute their stuff back, they just published the patches).
Following th esame reasoning, they thought it made more financial and strategic sense to not contribute back, and get a license instead. Except now they're stuck as pretty much the only PDA manufacturer shipping a Linux device. Awesome.

It probably would have cost them much more time to produce acceptable code for all the functionality they needed, and contributing back would mean they would have to make everything modular, which at first glance flies in the face of all-around integration.

Of course, had they opened the platform and actually supported the developpers instead of slapping them around, the resulting community would have been really supportive, but now...

This kind of strategy is understandable in the short run, but you're burning so many bridges it seems pretty short sighted to me.

What's funnier is that they didn't even realize how counter-productive this behaviour is when you're trying to market your stuff to the Enterprise market. Funny in a sad kind of way, I guess.

handheld-linux

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Specification Of "new" Linux Handhelds
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2005, 03:15:26 pm »
Firstly,
there is a 0.2 version of the specification attached. Now put under GFDL.

Secondly,
it is a "mini B" plug on the device. There is no "mini A". The cable of the C3000 is "A to mini B". I just learned that myself. Here is the reference: http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ecn1.pdf

Thirdly,
the main focus is on a device. So, software and its quality is something different. I think we should have a working "standard" software on it - and enough information to port e.g. OpenZaurus and/or pdaXrom or whatever you like to it. So, my main concern is that there is enough flash/ram/HDD available for future needs.

Fourthly,
I have added GPRS class 10 (up to 2 channels uplink). Here a reference what it means: http://www.gsmworld.com/technology/gprs/class.shtml

Nikolaus

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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2005, 03:36:47 pm »
I would also include built in GPRS in the Micro-Laptop model - under the assumption that Smartphone is a smaller (screen and keyboard), and cheaper version of Micro-laptop how does it make sense for "lower" end device to have any features that big brother does not? Especially feature like GPRS since many power users would like to connect to internet from anywhere (and not have to use CF slot for battery eating GPRS card as we have to do now).

wmadan

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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2005, 04:06:52 pm »
Is the backlit TFT screen the same one as the 6000 that you can use outdoors?

Bill

adf

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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2005, 04:25:55 pm »
I'd be very happy with open drivers and expandability--- 1000 w/ 2 cf  and real, open linux drivers (and a 6k screen)would be a great device. If the proc would run a 600, so much the better.

Honestly though I think to move much beyond that we get into the next strata of handhelds--the x86's. OQO and especially flipstart look wonderful, but too pricey. tiqit looks like something made by thoughtful people, and like it would be a really nice thing runing sid

I see handhelds as:
cellphone-basic
pda - axim- z5500
smartphone
expensivepda 9for lack of a better term) zclamshell, 6k
x86 handheld --oqo flipsmart tiqit.

combinations of the above seem the best choice for versatilty, the smartphone is the winner for basic all-in-one, expensivepda is likely nicest-gadget-per-shekel...etc. you all get the picture.

I like any effort to keep the z evolving, but really linux is weak in the basic pda end (though the 1000 is an amazing deal foR the price). maybe the basic pda is dead, and 2 levels of phone and 2 levels of handheld cover the market. more linux smartphones, and maybe serious software work on the z (and better sales by sharp) seem to me to be the thing to look for.

--thinking out loud
**3100 Zubuntu Jaunty,(working on Cacko dualboot), 16G A-Data internal CF, 4G SD, Ambicom WL-1100C Cf, linksys usb ethernet,  BelkinF8T020 BT card, Belkin F8U1500-E Ir kbd, mini targus usb mouse, rechargeble AC/DC powered USB hub, psp cables and battery extenders.

**6000l  Tetsuized Sharprom, installed on internal flash only 1G sd, 2G cf

ev1l

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Specification Of "new" Linux Handhelds
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2005, 04:53:27 pm »
Oh yeah, one last thing: if the MDA Mk 4 ran Linux, I would have ditched my Z a long time ago.
The specs are pretty much perfect: built-in QWERTY keyboard, UMTS, large touch screen, 1.3 megapixel digital camera, 128MB of RAM, 520MHz Intel XScale processor, WiFi, and Bluetooth.
To me, trying to produce a new handheld is just not a productive way to go about it. The manufacturer of the MDA wants to stay an OEM, so getting hardware specs shouldn't cause any trouble.
Write drivers, port a decent version of OZ with Qtopia on top, perfect phone ahoy.

kahm

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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2005, 05:45:39 pm »
Quote
Oh yeah, one last thing: if the MDA Mk 4 ran Linux, I would have ditched my Z a long time ago.
The specs are pretty much perfect: built-in QWERTY keyboard, UMTS, large touch screen, 1.3 megapixel digital camera, 128MB of RAM, 520MHz Intel XScale processor, WiFi, and Bluetooth.
To me, trying to produce a new handheld is just not a productive way to go about it. The manufacturer of the MDA wants to stay an OEM, so getting hardware specs shouldn't cause any trouble.
Write drivers, port a decent version of OZ with Qtopia on top, perfect phone ahoy.
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Very nice. If this is the direction that smartphones are taking, I won't mind the "death" of the PDA market any more.

I've got a "Wallaby", the first generation device manufactured by HTC. There's currently a Linux initiative for the older models, with a booting kernel. I haven't looked up what kind of support the newer ones have yet. AFAIK, HTC won't give out documentation on them, so it is an uphill battle.
Fujitsu U8240 "Stormtrooper" -  Zaurus Supplement
Libretto U100 | Sony Librie, Sony Reader
SL-C3100: Sharp 1.11JP (Kanji Dictionary/Translator) - LCD Top swap with C1000.
SL-C3000: pdaXii13 5.4.7, SL-C3000 5.4.9 - microdrive replaced with 8gb Sandisk
SL-C1000: PDAXRom Beta3 | SL-6000L: Sharp 1.12 | SL-5500: Cacko, 64-0 kernel | SL-5000D: OZ-Opie
Linksys WCF12; Sharp CE-AG06, CE-RH2, CE-170TS; iRiver USB OTG Host cable; Socket BT rev.E CF; Hitachi 6gb Microdrive

kahm

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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2005, 05:56:34 pm »
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Secondly,
it is a "mini B" plug on the device. There is no "mini A". The cable of the C3000 is "A to mini B". I just learned that myself. Here is the reference: http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ecn1.pdf

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Absolutely wrong.

The USB port on the host capable Zaurii (the SL-6000, SL-C1000, and SL-C3000) is a USB 2.0 On-The-Go mini-AB port. It can accept both mini-A and mini-B connectors. When a mini-B cable is plugged in it functions as a USB Client. With a mini-A cable it functions as a USB Host.

The cable included with the 3000 is an A to Mini-B cable because that is used for syncing the Zaurus to a host computer. To use the 3000 as a host you need a mini-A to Male A socket cable, such as the iRiver cable.

USB On The Go supplement to the USB 2.0 specifications:
[a href=\"http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/OTG1_0a%28PDFs%29.zip]http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/OTG1_0a(PDFs).zip[/url]

You might want to be a little more carefull with your research before you go and submit that specification to anyone.
Fujitsu U8240 "Stormtrooper" -  Zaurus Supplement
Libretto U100 | Sony Librie, Sony Reader
SL-C3100: Sharp 1.11JP (Kanji Dictionary/Translator) - LCD Top swap with C1000.
SL-C3000: pdaXii13 5.4.7, SL-C3000 5.4.9 - microdrive replaced with 8gb Sandisk
SL-C1000: PDAXRom Beta3 | SL-6000L: Sharp 1.12 | SL-5500: Cacko, 64-0 kernel | SL-5000D: OZ-Opie
Linksys WCF12; Sharp CE-AG06, CE-RH2, CE-170TS; iRiver USB OTG Host cable; Socket BT rev.E CF; Hitachi 6gb Microdrive

adf

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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2005, 10:41:25 pm »
is there some different otg minib plug? I just checked what I think is a mini-b from a lexar card reader.... doesn't fit. Or maybe the cable to the lexar reader isn't quite normal mini-b?   info would help.
**3100 Zubuntu Jaunty,(working on Cacko dualboot), 16G A-Data internal CF, 4G SD, Ambicom WL-1100C Cf, linksys usb ethernet,  BelkinF8T020 BT card, Belkin F8U1500-E Ir kbd, mini targus usb mouse, rechargeble AC/DC powered USB hub, psp cables and battery extenders.

**6000l  Tetsuized Sharprom, installed on internal flash only 1G sd, 2G cf

handheld-linux

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Specification Of "new" Linux Handhelds
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2005, 02:19:57 am »
Kahm,
thank you very much for the link to that spec! It has clarified a lot.

Quote
Quote
There is no "mini A"
Absolutely wrong.
Well, there *was* no mini A plug until the spec for it was issued. So it *became* wrong after 24 june 2003 :-)
Quote
The USB port on the host capable Zaurii (the SL-6000, SL-C1000, and SL-C3000) is a USB 2.0 On-The-Go mini-AB port.
The comments here were so confident that it is a mini A (because they thought about USB host) but then I just found mini B cables (since I had thought about USB client for the standard cable)... We all were wrong and you are right: it must be an "OTG mini-AB" (the C3000 even comes with the correct grey color code). So I will put that into the spec.

And, should we specify the device to come with *two* cables? A Host plus a Client cable?

Tnx again,
Nikolaus

kahm

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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2005, 01:39:47 pm »
Quote
is there some different otg minib plug? I just checked what I think is a mini-b from a lexar card reader.... doesn't fit. Or maybe the cable to the lexar reader isn't quite normal mini-b?   info would help.
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There is another small connector that is almost square, compared to the wider and narrower mini-b connectors. My Kodak camera takes the square connector (but I can't find the cable to see what's written on it, and I don't feel like digging back into the usb documents). Everything else I own seems to take mini-b.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2005, 05:32:09 pm by kahm »
Fujitsu U8240 "Stormtrooper" -  Zaurus Supplement
Libretto U100 | Sony Librie, Sony Reader
SL-C3100: Sharp 1.11JP (Kanji Dictionary/Translator) - LCD Top swap with C1000.
SL-C3000: pdaXii13 5.4.7, SL-C3000 5.4.9 - microdrive replaced with 8gb Sandisk
SL-C1000: PDAXRom Beta3 | SL-6000L: Sharp 1.12 | SL-5500: Cacko, 64-0 kernel | SL-5000D: OZ-Opie
Linksys WCF12; Sharp CE-AG06, CE-RH2, CE-170TS; iRiver USB OTG Host cable; Socket BT rev.E CF; Hitachi 6gb Microdrive

ev1l

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Specification Of "new" Linux Handhelds
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2005, 07:49:27 pm »
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And, should we specify the device to come with *two* cables? A Host plus a Client cable?
I should come with 2 plugs and 2 cables. Have you thought about my MDA comment?

davidmcnaught16

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« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2005, 05:13:41 pm »
Firstly, some people seem to think that having a better spec than what the Z has for a similar price is not possible.  That is plain wrong (Unless the great screens shifts the price up significantly).  Many devices around the price of the C860 / C1000 have bluetooth, wifi, CF + SD + Mic, and some have a camera too. (Look at Fujutsu, Dell, HP high end PDA's)

As someone said earlier, mixing a C3000 & Dell X50v would pretty much do the job. (Basically, X50v, without graphics processor, with keyboard, better screen and Linux).  If it was produced on a big enough scale, it should cost just a little more than an X50v - I'd say very reasonable for such a device.

I think the ideas handheld-linux has put forward are decent.  I'm interested in the mini-laptop type PDA, and the spec seems good.  It is still very true that such a product would not be a great success unless there is fair investment in the software.  The products will need to be good for the masses, not just us enthusiasts, which I think they can be - there are no other good clamshell PDA's out there.

handheld-linux

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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2005, 06:17:45 am »
I just came across https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11759 which contains a link to an "Zircon Axia A108" smartphone which roughly fits the spec of the Tux Smartphone.

speculatrix

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« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2005, 08:18:10 am »
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I should come with 2 plugs and 2 cables.
 Have you thought about my MDA comment?

sod the USB. just give us full-speed firewire!

Quote
Have you thought about my MDA comment?

yeah, I like the MDAiv, when I first saw it I thought about holding off buying a Z, but then the more I thought about it the more I realised it'd be *ages* before someone will manage to hack it sufficiently to even get it trying to load linux, let alone support all the embedded peripherals.

sigh.
Gemini 4G/Wi-Fi owner, formerly zaurus C3100 and 860 owner; also owner of an HTC Doubleshot, a Zaurus-like phone.