Thinking About A "debian Rom"

[pgas]

Would you like a "debian rom" ie something similar to pdaxrom but using the libraries and packages compiled by debian-arm?
Is this a good idea or a chrooted debian is good enough?
Is this a totally ridiculous idea, zaurus are not up to the task?

Problems I see with a debian rom:

*kernel will not be the one from debian but this doesn't seem to be a problem as users of chrooted seems happy
* how to handle of the different volumes?
    ipkg creates links for the packages installed on the cards/user partition and thus it is fairly to choose where to put what.
    apt-get doesn't do this something like this, thus choosing where the package should go is perhaps impossible.
   (Perhaps one base-system  on the internal flash, unionfs for sd/cf card)
* size of the packages
  - are debian package stripped? maybe we want something to automatically strip the packages this is not a big problem.
  - do we want full packages with full documentation?
  - would it be possible to automatically discard the documentation?
* as it will probably take more disk space, a memory card might be an absolute  requirement to run anything interesting.

Zaurus customization:
* pdaxrom has an optimized x server with some acceleration
   It would be relatively easy to recompile the xserver of pdaxrom for debian I think
    but then how will the debian dependency react to this or is it easy to create our own x debian packages that will replace the one from debian?
* power button, light rotation etc..this is probably the trickiest and most time-consuming part though sashz allready have solutions
for most of these problems  it  will be necessary to find the patches, recompile etc..
*not softfloat optimization, but  does it really make a difference?

The immediate benefit would be the thousands of packages readily available.

[ScottYelich]

I would prefer a choot debian that could/would/should run completely off sd/cf, etc.

You could run X programs in this chroot and still display on the pdaXrom X server, etc.

Scott

[Xumbi]

I like the idea, but first I would like to see a better guide put together on how to configure the chroot environment.  When I did it in my Z I had a lot of strange problems, and I could never run an X session.  All I could do was run apps within matchbox/openbox.

[Locutus73]

I'd love a native Debian distro including PdaXrom hacks in order to run on a PDA.
I think, since the release of the C3000, the times are mature for a full blown distro.
I'd really love a C3000 oriented project like that.

[Chero]

Hi,

If it existed, I would certainly try it out, but :

- I think the current chroot pocketworkstation setup as described by Cyberwolf is good enough for most users - it only takes about 3 seconds to start, then you can run debian apps just using "Crd ..." in a pdaX-terminal. I use it all the time for "planner", "kbudget", "gnumeric", "TreeLine", ...
- debian apps from the chroot do not take long to load (not half the time they do need when using X/QT-pocketworkstation or dual-boot setup on cacko 1.22).
- the apps run very good and fast (faster than they do on cacko 1.22)
- maybe the better speed on pdaX has something to do with the softfloat optimization or the optimized x server.
- I think, if you really want useable debian apps, you'll need at least the speed pdaX provides
- with the chroot system, you can already use the thousands of packages that are available, just install by using apt-get

I think it would be better to put some efforts in optimizing the chroot sytem rather than creating a completely new rom.


Chero

[Chero]

I like the idea, but first I would like to see a better guide put together on how to configure the chroot environment.  When I did it in my Z I had a lot of strange problems, and I could never run an X session.  All I could do was run apps within matchbox/openbox.
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Did you use Cyberwolf's setup?

About the X-session : I think the whole idea about the setup is to be able to run debian apps in the pdaX window manager, so you can run debian apps and pdaX-apps at the same time.
Why would you want to run a debian window manager and not to be able to run native pdaX-apps in it ?

Chero.

[adf]

could you not compile and use dpkg and debtools and apt...and simply use the debian repositories?  I had though tthat would be a good idea on gpe
but i never got it done

[Xumbi]

I like the idea, but first I would like to see a better guide put together on how to configure the chroot environment.  When I did it in my Z I had a lot of strange problems, and I could never run an X session.  All I could do was run apps within matchbox/openbox.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74248\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

Did you use Cyberwolf's setup?

About the X-session : I think the whole idea about the setup is to be able to run debian apps in the pdaX window manager, so you can run debian apps and pdaX-apps at the same time.
Why would you want to run a debian window manager and not to be able to run native pdaX-apps in it ?

Chero.
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Well, I thought that I should be able to run X from within chroot, maybe I was wrong.  I really wanted to run icewm from within chroot and I could never figure out how to do it.

[CyberWolf]

Hello everyone,

I couldn't miss this thread  

About the possibility to create a pure Debian ROM... I see a *LOT* of work needed.

pgas already listed some issues with it, and the biggest ones I can see are the space problem without external SD or CF and the need to port all the work already done by the Pdax team (X server, several scripts, some programs to adjust zaurus settings, etc.) to the dpkg package system to satisfy dependencies.

Said that, a Debian native enviroment could be very interesting on a C3000 (btw, do you know that an a C3000 you could run OpenBSD too? Cool! But off topic now...).

On a C7X0/C8X0/C1000 you would end with a part of the system on flash and the other on SD/CF... maybe you could obtain this result with a patched apt/dpkg, but this would complicate things only more.

One possibility could be to install a full debian enviroment (with some additional packages based on Pdax work) on SD/CF/Internal microdrive and keep a standard Pdax install on flash. Then edit the native (on flash) inittab script to present a dialog asking if you want to keep on booting with Pdax or do a pivot_root to the SD/CF/microdrive partition.

You would end up with a complete working Debian enviroment (without a chroot) and a fully working Pdax enviroment (keep the possibility to switch between one another can be useful). The drawback is the need to duplicate stuff between the two installations: pcmcia stuff, X server, etc... and you would need to reboot to switch between one another (in regards to this, the older chroot method is faster).

Well, I'll stop my ramblings now... my laptop has the battery running dry, I'm sleepy and last but not least I suppose I've already given a good example of my poor english and how can I use it to make my ideas unclear    

Good night everyone,

Andrea

P.S. For Xumbi: if you want to run icewm from the chroot, try to put something like "Crd icewm" into your .xinitrc (in the native Pdax enviroment... first remove the symlink to /usr/bin/mbsession and then do: echo "Crd icewm" > .xinitrc)... I've just tried it and after some waiting it seems to work.

[adf]

I had thought more along the lines of the pivot root bit... would be nice and versatile.. put the root anyplace n go......   and as you say could leave something else on the rom chips

[amrein]

Similar old topic:

https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3040

[CyberWolf]

Similar old topic:

https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3040
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Err... I've read that thread now... how can I call it?

Instructive... now I understand why once I offered to help with running pdax as a normal user (instead of root) to the team and I never got a reply beyond "we'll contact you later"    (btw... It's ok, I understand, really!)

Anyway, I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here... The project suggested in the thread you pointed out seemed more ambitious than the one proposed here (or maybe I misunderstood this or the other thread?).

pgas? Are you still there? Speak to us!  

Andrea

P.S. Amrein, do you read One Piece too?

[pgas]

Yes I'm still there
I was  waiting to see what others were thinking about it.

From what I read the chrooted is working well enough and people prefers to keep pdaxrom as it is anyway, so perhaps  the way to go is just to have a pocketworkstation tailored for pdaxrom, ie easy to install perhaps (I should seriously start to think about getting one of these 1G sd card)?

As for the C3000 it is surely a very good candidate for debian, though I think most of the work that has been done for pdaxrom on the c7xx needs to be done again (accelerated x, driver tweakings etc...).  

Porting  dpkg and debtools etc.. could be done but I'm not sure if they could be very interesting as some debian packages might not work with the library, it will perhaps install dependency that will overwrite the ones from pdaxrom so it can be dangerous too....
Also I think that there is a version of ipkg that is able to install debian packages and a script to convert a .deb to a .ipk out there (never tried).